shawn michaels Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Because you don't...</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Precisely. So I don't hate the man. I hate the character. I've said this a million times. When I speak of hating Cena, I'm talking about hating his character.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akujy Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><strong> So please if there are so many people who agree with you and are willing to say "yes no matter what John Cena does we will hate him for all the end of time" then point to them</strong>. Because I'm betting 99.9999 percent of the people on here and reality are in the camp of "I hate the way the WWE pushes him but there are certainly things they could do to make me like him again and overall I think he's an average human being". You however don't seem to feel this way and I seriously get a Mark David Chapman vibe from you.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm one of those guys. He's not alone. I see tons of people chanting Cena sucks and you think Shawn is the only one to hate him? Say no to drugs.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stennick Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <p>So you're saying if john cena took on a different persona tomorrow if he was someone completely different with a new gimmick people wouldn't hate him. Shawn is saying he would still hate him no.matter what character he played does that mean you hate ziggler because he was a spirit squad member or any wrestler for their last gimmick.</p><p> </p><p> No my point is that unless you hate john as a person then there is no reason you wouldn't say its not possible to like him in another role. Didn't anyone envision Steve Austin when he was the ringmaster....certainly not in the way we got him same goes for the Rock Shawn Michaels and tons of wrestlers who's gimmicks evolved and changed completely. So to say there is no way that any worker can't become something you would be interested in is either extreme shirt sightedness and delusion or you just aren't a fan of pro wrestling. </p><p> </p><p> My point isn't that you can't and shouldn't hate his character its that nobody should say there is nothing any worker can do to.become interesting since wrestling has proven all of us wrong on that front constantly. </p><p> </p><p> So maybe you should "say no to drugs" if you're too burnt out to comprehend the debate at hand...</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>No. He got a bad reaction due to being massively pushed in development despite not having the skill, charisma, or look to back it up.<p> </p><p> As someone who's been watching the fcw/nxt shows since 2011 I can say he's improved in the ring by leaps and bounds but they seem in love with him for some reason. I personally think if he changed his abysmal look and stopped being so stupidly happy go lucky he would be ok. <strong>As it stands now he's a clone of Cena without the freakish power, charisma, look, or skills and people realize this.</strong></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's the point though. They are playing with crowd expectation. Same as they used the smark crowd at Payback to double turn ADR and Ziggler. Unlike with Cena where they keep pushing him as a babyface for marketing purposes despite his tweener crowd reaction. Maybe I'm giving WWE creative too much credit but to me it looks obvious that Dallas's character is exactly how they want it and he's getting the reaction they want.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20LEgend Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="milamber" data-cite="milamber" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Maybe I'm giving WWE creative too much credit but to me it looks obvious that Dallas's character is exactly how they want it and he's getting the reaction they want.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> If not in the beginning I think this is at least something they've gone with, rather than trying to reverse. I agree that at this point they're going with that direction and it's much better than when they were presenting him as a face.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="milamber" data-cite="milamber" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That's the point though. They are playing with crowd expectation. Same as they used the smark crowd at Payback to double turn ADR and Ziggler. Unlike with Cena where they keep pushing him as a babyface for marketing purposes despite his tweener crowd reaction. Maybe I'm giving WWE creative too much credit but to me it looks obvious that Dallas's character is exactly how they want it and he's getting the reaction they want.</div></blockquote><p> I don't think that's the case</p><p> </p><p> The commentators and production team tell the story that the company wants to tell and they would give subtle hints that there is something "off" about Bo Dallas. They never really acknowledge the crowd being against him and even on highlight packages they do the extreme zoom in to the one guy who probably isn't booing him.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickymex Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <p>Maybe they are using him as an experiment. You have a "babyface" champion who fight bad guys, allies with loved babyfaces, and works a babyface style. However the crowd despises him completely. So much that if they had him face a N.azi the crowd will start goose-stomping. </p><p> </p><p> Can we turn a guy this hated into the main babyface? They have the perfect scenario set.</p><p> </p><p> Or turn him into the delusional tweener who rip-offs current popular culture from Bieber to Batman to everything.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akujy Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So you're saying if john cena took on a different persona tomorrow if he was someone completely different with a new gimmick people wouldn't hate him. Shawn is saying he would still hate him no.matter what character he played does that mean you hate ziggler because he was a spirit squad member or any wrestler for their last gimmick.<p> </p><p> No my point is that unless you hate john as a person then there is no reason you wouldn't say its not possible to like him in another role. Didn't anyone envision Steve Austin when he was the ringmaster....certainly not in the way we got him same goes for the Rock Shawn Michaels and tons of wrestlers who's gimmicks evolved and changed completely. So to say there is no way that any worker can't become something you would be interested in is either extreme shirt sightedness and delusion or you just aren't a fan of pro wrestling. </p><p> </p><p> My point isn't that you can't and shouldn't hate his character its that nobody should say there is nothing any worker can do to.become interesting since wrestling has proven all of us wrong on that front constantly. </p><p> </p><p> So maybe you should "say no to drugs" if you're too burnt out to comprehend the debate at hand...</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You are the one not understanding the debate. What I said was that Shawn is right and you are wrong. And both of you keep having this discusion because you are always thinking that Shawn is thinking something he is not. Why do you even have these discussions? I have no idea. You guys seem to get along well, from what I've seen around the boards. But I agree with Shawn when it comes to Cena. You can't possibly think we are the only ones.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Well a few months ago he showed some signs of being a delusional douche (his segment with Adrian nevielle backstage) but since he won the title it seems to have went away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Well a few months ago he showed some signs of being a delusional douche (his segment with Adrian nevielle backstage) but since he won the title it seems to have went away</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> One of the first things he said after winning the title was "I'm going to Disneyland" ala Kane. Then they showed a promo of him driving back from Disneyland after taking the week off. And there was a promo where he says Bret Hart is his mentor and he headlined Wrestlemania (he had a match at Axxess). And he's facing Leo Kruger who is a also a tweener (heel getting a face reaction). The delusional gimmick is still there (along with the douchey smile) but it's not in-your-face.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickymex Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="milamber" data-cite="milamber" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>One of the first things he said after winning the title was "I'm going to Disneyland" ala Kane. Then they showed a promo of him driving back from Disneyland after taking the week off. And there was a promo where he says Bret Hart is his mentor and he headlined Wrestlemania (he had a match at Axxess). And he's facing Leo Kruger who is a also a tweener (heel getting a face reaction). The delusional gimmick is still there (along with the douchey smile) but it's not in-your-face.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> Plus his butchering of Journey...</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 One of the first things he said after winning the title was "I'm going to Disneyland" ala Kane. Then they showed a promo of him driving back from Disneyland after taking the week off. And there was a promo where he says Bret Hart is his mentor and he headlined Wrestlemania (he had a match at Axxess). And he's facing Leo Kruger who is a also a tweener (heel getting a face reaction). The delusional gimmick is still there (along with the douchey smile) but it's not in-your-face. A heel getting a face reaction does not make someone a tweener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 While there is much reason to hate Cena, I think circumstances have been unkind to him -- like his love for the WWE preventing him from pushing Vince to make changes to his character, and a lack of alternative main eventers on the same level as Cena. And a difference in eras -- if Rock and Austin had stuck around for 5 years (constantly pushed as main eventers) after they hit their peak, would they have the same level of hatred directed at them as Cena has had? I don't think they would have because their characters had more leeway in the Attitude and Ruthless Agression eras. There is a huge amount of dislike for the PG era and Cena (and his gimmick) are the personification of the PG era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stennick Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 You are the one not understanding the debate. What I said was that Shawn is right and you are wrong. And both of you keep having this discusion because you are always thinking that Shawn is thinking something he is not. Why do you even have these discussions? I have no idea. You guys seem to get along well, from what I've seen around the boards. But I agree with Shawn when it comes to Cena. You can't possibly think we are the only ones. One last time to clarify and I won't mention it again (until the next time). If you want to discuss the matter further please feel free to PM me I'm more than open to continuing to talk about this matter until you completely understand. So here it is I will walk through the debate with you. The debate this time around started atleast my involvement of it started with Comeradebot saying this... Sorry folks, I just get a tad sick of the smarkiness towards Cena. It's reached a point that, if Cena were to debut next week with the greatest gimmick the world has ever seen, a lot of people would still be chanting "Cena sucks" because it's become so ingrained that it's what the "cool kids" do. so again let me walk you through that. Comradebot's argument is that no matter what John Cena does as a character it will not matter people will not like him no matter what. Then Shawnmichaels82 followed that up with THIS I don't really care that people come in here and say that Cena is more than he shows, that is true. But i do care when people come here and complain about people who hate Cena. And this is not directe at you, Comradebot. I am on of the biggest Cena hater in the world, and it has nothing to do with is skills. If WWE shoves something for 10 years down my throath, I will hate it. And other people will hate it. Not everyone, but more people will. To think that people only hate him because it's cool is preposterous. We hate him becaue we're sick of him and bored to death. And after almost 10 years, there is a lot of resentment. So I don't care if they gave him the best gimmick ever and he excelled...I already dislike him. Nothing will change that. I'm not the only one. It has nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned. The only thing ingrained in here is that same old BS he has done for all these years. the rest of what he says is typical non sensical SM82 ranting on John Cena because thats what he does. However his bolded part is what I was and am arguing. So in case you're having a hard time following this line he's saying that to quote him even if John Cena had the greatest gimmick ever he would still hate John Cena, even if John CEna were a completely different character. My argument is that 99.9999 percent of people don't feel this way. My argument is that people hate the CHARACTER of John Cena so why in the blue hell would someone hate John Cena if he was playing a DIFFERENT character, especially if it was "the greatest character of all time". You're saying you don't like John Cena and thats fine. However what you're not grasping or understanding here in your delusion and short sightedness is that you think I'm saying people don't hate John Cena. Thats NOT what I'm saying. What I'm saying is its clear people hate John Cena the CHARACTER but if John Cena became a new character and that character was "the greatest character in the world" that people wouldn't hate John Cena anymore becuase why would you then hate him? If you only hate the character and he's not that character anymore then why would you hate him? There would be no reason. So if I'm wrong....which I'm not by the way explain to me how exactly it makes sense to hate someone's character and then STILL hate them even if they switched to another character, one that you would like if it weren't being played by John Cena. How does that make any sense what so ever? Its so backwards and unimaginable that you can't possibly explain it with any coherency. "I don't like John Cena because the character he plays has been shoved down our throats for ten years, so the WWE changes his character so something completely new, fresh, exciting and cool and I still don't like John Cena because.................science?" THAT is the argument. SM82 is saying that no matter what John Cena does in this life he will hate him. All I'm simply saying is that to call yourself a wrestling fan and say without a shadow of a doubt there is NOTHING a WRESTLER can do to change how someone feels about him is just ignorant. I could go down the list of wrestlers that all had lame CHARACTERS....which by the way thats what John Cena is he's a CHARACTER. John Cena is no different than Hunter Hearst Hemsley the blue blood, or Steve Austin the Ringmaster or The Rock as Rocky Maivia, or Sting as Blade, or any other number of guys who had a character that the entire world said "man this guy sucks he's never goign to get anywhere as that character" only to CHANGE characters and become great. Thats my exact point here. Its impossible to say "I don't like this guy because he'll never play a character I enjoy seeing" because Wrestling proves you wrong of this. And if you liked every character your favorite wrestlers of all time ever played then you're a liar. As I said I won't respond in here again because if you don't understand my argument and why I believes that 99.99999999 percent of the world including you disagree with SM82 refusing to ever like anything John Cena does no matter it is or how cool it might be is ignorant, delusional, short sighted and above all else just plain weird and crazy. Feel free to PM me to continue the discussion but you won't because you'd rather post in here so that the masses can read your four word reply and so that you can counter with such posts as "say no to drugs" which is such a riveting debate counter. On another note While there is much reason to hate Cena, I think circumstances have been unkind to him -- like his love for the WWE preventing him from pushing Vince to make changes to his character, and a lack of alternative main eventers on the same level as Cena. And a difference in eras -- if Rock and Austin had stuck around for 5 years (constantly pushed as main eventers) after they hit their peak, would they have the same level of hatred directed at them as Cena has had? I don't think they would have because their characters had more leeway in the Attitude and Ruthless Agression eras. There is a huge amount of dislike for the PG era and Cena (and his gimmick) are the personification of the PG era. This is exactly it. Think about it. John Cena has been on tv more than any other superstar in history. RAW, Smackdown, Velocity, Heat, NXT, ECW, Main Event, Superstars, 15 pay per views a year. And he's appeared on them ALL. During the Attitude Era up until 1998 it was just RAW and for quite a while it was a one hour show. Then Heat came and it was just one more hour. It wasn't until the END of 1999 that Smackdown even came about. The Rock was gone to Hollywood less than two years after the debut of Smackdown and Steve Austin only wrestled on Smackdown for around a year and a half before he retired. (since he got hurt in 99 and didn't come back until the end of 2000 and was gone in the summer of 2002.) So no wrestler on the planet has had the exposure that John Cena has had. Even Steve Austin by the time 2004 rolled around and he waas doing the Sheriff Austin schtick people didn't care about him. Hogan got big in 1983 by the time 1990 came along people were bored with him and back then there wasn't even a weekly wrestling show that he was featured on. You saw him a few times a month at best. The reason for most of the Cena backlash is character, over pushing, over saturatian, and the stale product. You're 100 percent right though that the product and just the sheer massive length of time he has been on television screens since his debut and him not being a heel in ten years I think has hurt him. 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bigtplaystew Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Nice to see some intelligent pro-Cena arguments. He deserves way more respect than he gets from people who should know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 I've defended Cena but I can agree in part with SM82 and Comradebot. Cena is a special case. Some of us still like Cena enough that an extreme gimmick change and a modified moveset would be enough, but he's so overexposed and stale that I can believe people when they say even a gimmick change and heel turn would not make them like Cena. WWE have themselves to blame for this. Let's hope HHH dedicates himself to building multiple main event stars so it doesn't happen again. Currently we've only Cena, Orton, Bryan and Punk over enough to be permanent main eventers. Build up 2 more megastars and you've got a year's worth of feuds over the WWE Title and no need for Cena to hog the limelight. The WHC can be used exclusively to get the next generation over (Ziggler, Del Rio, Sandow, Rhodes) with veterans like Christian, Show, Henry and Jericho in the mix to give it some much needed prestige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stennick Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="milamber" data-cite="milamber" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I've defended Cena but I can agree in part with SM82 and Comradebot. Cena is a special case. Some of us still like Cena enough that an extreme gimmick change and a modified moveset would be enough, but he's so overexposed and stale that<strong> I can believe people when they say even a gimmick change and heel turn would not make them like Cena. WWE have themselves to blame for this.</strong> Let's hope HHH dedicates himself to building multiple main event stars so it doesn't happen again. Currently we've only Cena, Orton, Bryan and Punk over enough to be permanent main eventers. Build up 2 more megastars and you've got a year's worth of feuds over the WWE Title and no need for Cena to hog the limelight. The WHC can be used exclusively to get the next generation over (Ziggler, Del Rio, Sandow, Rhodes) with veterans like Christian, Show, Henry and Jericho in the mix to give it some much needed prestige.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> 1996 Hulk Hogan was the EXACT same way. Outside of a Ric Flair dream match in 1994 Hogan had been stale for about five or six years by the time he finally turned heel. NOBODY saw that coming. If the internet was the same as it is now in 1996 everyone would have been saying the same thing. "Hogan's so stale, he's been the same character for 16 years" and then a heel turn absolute ignited the business and completely changed the proffessional wreslting landscape. </p><p> </p><p> Same thing with Steve Austin when he came in as the ringmaster people knew he was talented but nobody EVER saw "Stone Cold" Steve Austin coming from the Ringmaster. Rocky Maivia was stale from the time he debuted "die Rocky die" and the X Pac go away heat he was getting. Nobody thought then that The Rock would go on to be one of the biggest names in ALL of entertainment let alone proffesional wrestling. </p><p> </p><p> So when people say "there is no way John Cena can be liked" I just that thats so very stupid. Wrestling has shown time and time and time again that it takes very little to take something tired, stale and boring and make it into something hot and fresh. So I'm sorry I can't agree that ANYONE is "too stale" or "too overexposed" Hulk Hogan cut the same promo and wrestled the same match for almost twenty years and in just moments completely resurrected his career and in some respects the business in general. Steve Austin with one phrase completely altered pro wrestling. </p><p> </p><p> So for anyone to say there is nothing a wrestler can do to become likeable or interesting or engaging or relevant or anything else is just silly to say. We've all seen it happen countless times. Remember when Dolph Ziggler was a male cheerleader getting poo dropped on him? You're telling me that you can be a whiny, wimpy, Male Cheerleader who can't win an 8 on 2 tag match or whatever it is and get poop dropped on you to boot and you can become fresh and interesting. But you can't be the biggest wrestling star of the last decade and re invent yourself into something interesting and likeable? I just can't agree with that. Not after all the examples I gave <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Black Phenom Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <p>I think it mostly comes down to the factor of overexposure. If Cena kept the same character but was exposed five times less, say if he was out of the title picture for a considerable amount of time, helping groom and push younger superstars like most veterans do(of course, we'd have to slightly disregard in this scenario the amount of merch and popularity he garners), he would be much more tolerable.</p><p> </p><p> When Cena came back to Royal Rumble 2008, everybody poo'd their pants. It was unexpected, out of the blue, one of those genuine moments that haven't been ruined by stupid dirtsheets; everyone went in a frenzy. For the next 20 minutes, everybody forgot how annoying John Cena was. It was slightly easier to do that at that point, he had been out for 4 months after all. He got into the ring under a raucous crowd and cleaned house. Even the hardcore Cena haters had to admit that was a good show.</p><p> </p><p> He's been the man for much more than five years, his ~400ish day-long title reign started in 2006. When people say they really dislike Cena, if it remotely shows that they dislike the person over the character I'd assume that it has less to do with the person John Cena, and more with the overexposure that he's been bestowed. People assume that he'd get the same amount of exposure with a different gimmick. And there's a good chance he would, he is superbly charismatic and does have an innate ability to control the crowd. But my point is some people just wanna see Cena go away. They've done literally everything with him BUT turn him heel. They had him feud with GMs and other authority. They had the entire Raw roster against him at certain points. They pulled a Montreal Screwjob variant on him. They had him trade spats with Vince, even had Vince go over him almost exactly three years ago.</p><p> </p><p> I dislike Cena's character for the same reasons as most do, but I'll always respect him for his work ethic and what he does outside the ropes. I also appreciate how he's started to sound more passionate in his promos this year instead of throwing out bad cookie-cutter jokes, but he still talks about more of the same stuff. I just believe people don't exactly mean "there is no way I could like Cena", it's simply a case of the unknown. Nobody knows how he would come across today under a different gimmick and/or as a heel, but the one certainty most fans hold in their minds is that he would be subject to the same amount of TV time, within reason.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So when people say "there is no way John Cena can be liked" I just that thats so very stupid.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I could be wrong but I don't think that's what they meant. IMO, they meant that they personally could never like Cena and a certain percentage of wrestling fans also feel the same way. That doesn't mean the rest of us wouldn't give him a chance but many people are so fed up that they won't ever like Cena period. That doens't mean WWE can't make him more palatable to the percentage still tolerating Cena.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <p>I liked Hogan for like a few months, around the time of Wrestlemania 2, then I disliked him, and really to be honest, wasn't til' I was much older that I actually gave him a chance, like around five or so years ago.</p><p> </p><p> IF I had that same mindset as I did back then, I know Cena would be one I hated. I would probably be saying very similar things that SM82 does, and.... I probably wouldn't have gave him a chance for years, which might as well be forever when your that age.</p><p> </p><p> Patience is what it all boils down to. Most of us have none til' we are over 30, some still don't. Those that have patience for things like that, at earlier ages, are just mature for their age, and a logic that tells them why things are that way, that over rides their desire of "Change it now!"</p><p> </p><p> Someone mentioned "it's the cool thing to do." That's been obvious for a good while, it's called peer pressure. You here a good reason to boo him, you agree, you boo him as well. Peer pressure doesn't have to be friends around you, in the here and now, it's also media areas you socialize at. SM82 hangs out here, so it's not the case for him. </p><p> </p><p> I believe that it's just when it would have been a cool thing to change Cena up (in their eyes), and they didn't, and they still didn't, and years later it's like "Screw that, I will never like this guy now!" In other words, patience.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <p>Would a Jesus Cena gimmick be better or would that be more annoying that Super Cena? <a href="http://www.wwe.com/shows/raw/2013-08-05/john-cena-extreme-makeunder-26138115" rel="external nofollow"><strong>John Cena Extreme Makeunder</strong></a></p><p> </p><p> <a href="http://www.wwe.com/inside/shave-daniel-bryan-beard" rel="external nofollow"><strong>Shave Daniel Bryan's Beard Game</strong></a></p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>1996 Hulk Hogan was the EXACT same way. Outside of a Ric Flair dream match in 1994 Hogan had been stale for about five or six years by the time he finally turned heel. NOBODY saw that coming. If the internet was the same as it is now in 1996 everyone would have been saying the same thing. "Hogan's so stale, he's been the same character for 16 years" and then a heel turn absolute ignited the business and completely changed the proffessional wreslting landscape. <p> </p><p> Same thing with Steve Austin when he came in as the ringmaster people knew he was talented but nobody EVER saw "Stone Cold" Steve Austin coming from the Ringmaster. Rocky Maivia was stale from the time he debuted "die Rocky die" and the X Pac go away heat he was getting. Nobody thought then that The Rock would go on to be one of the biggest names in ALL of entertainment let alone proffesional wrestling. </p><p> </p><p> So when people say "there is no way John Cena can be liked" I just that thats so very stupid. Wrestling has shown time and time and time again that it takes very little to take something tired, stale and boring and make it into something hot and fresh. So I'm sorry I can't agree that ANYONE is "too stale" or "too overexposed" Hulk Hogan cut the same promo and wrestled the same match for almost twenty years and in just moments completely resurrected his career and in some respects the business in general. Steve Austin with one phrase completely altered pro wrestling. </p><p> </p><p> So for anyone to say there is nothing a wrestler can do to become likeable or interesting or engaging or relevant or anything else is just silly to say. We've all seen it happen countless times. Remember when Dolph Ziggler was a male cheerleader getting poo dropped on him? You're telling me that you can be a whiny, wimpy, Male Cheerleader who can't win an 8 on 2 tag match or whatever it is and get poop dropped on you to boot and you can become fresh and interesting. But you can't be the biggest wrestling star of the last decade and re invent yourself into something interesting and likeable? I just can't agree with that. Not after all the examples I gave <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> But it's not like Hogan would go on to be a babyface ever again, right? I mean the fans hated him for real in 1996!</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <p>Just watched the new NXT and it seems like Bo Dallas did indeed start bringing back the douchieness of his character</p><p> </p><p> It's a great start but I really think he needs to change his look badly</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickymex Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Just watched the new NXT and it seems like Bo Dallas did indeed start bringing back the douchieness of his character<p> </p><p> It's a great start but I really think he needs to change his look badly</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> He has the perfect combination of pretty boy and creepyness for his character in my opinion. Plus that smile of his is unsettling and the fact that he looks really young just helps the douchyness.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn michaels Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>One last time to clarify and I won't mention it again (until the next time). If you want to discuss the matter further please feel free to PM me I'm more than open to continuing to talk about this matter until you completely understand. So here it is I will walk through the debate with you. <p> </p><p> </p><p> The debate this time around started atleast my involvement of it started with Comeradebot saying this...</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> so again let me walk you through that. Comradebot's argument is that no matter what John Cena does as a character it will not matter people will not like him no matter what. </p><p> </p><p> Then Shawnmichaels82 followed that up with THIS</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> the rest of what he says is typical non sensical SM82 ranting on John Cena because thats what he does. However his bolded part is what I was and am arguing. </p><p> </p><p> So in case you're having a hard time following this line he's saying that to quote him even if John Cena had the greatest gimmick ever he would still hate John Cena, even if John CEna were a completely different character.</p><p> </p><p> My argument is that 99.9999 percent of people don't feel this way. My argument is that people hate the CHARACTER of John Cena so why in the blue hell would someone hate John Cena if he was playing a DIFFERENT character, especially if it was "the greatest character of all time". </p><p> </p><p> You're saying you don't like John Cena and thats fine. However what you're not grasping or understanding here in your delusion and short sightedness is that you think I'm saying people don't hate John Cena. Thats NOT what I'm saying. What I'm saying is its clear people hate John Cena the CHARACTER but if John Cena became a new character and that character was "the greatest character in the world" that people wouldn't hate John Cena anymore becuase why would you then hate him? If you only hate the character and he's not that character anymore then why would you hate him? There would be no reason. </p><p> </p><p> So if I'm wrong....which I'm not by the way explain to me how exactly it makes sense to hate someone's character and then STILL hate them even if they switched to another character, one that you would like if it weren't being played by John Cena. How does that make any sense what so ever? Its so backwards and unimaginable that you can't possibly explain it with any coherency. "I don't like John Cena because the character he plays has been shoved down our throats for ten years, so the WWE changes his character so something completely new, fresh, exciting and cool and I still don't like John Cena because.................science?"</p><p> </p><p> THAT is the argument. SM82 is saying that no matter what John Cena does in this life he will hate him. All I'm simply saying is that to call yourself a wrestling fan and say without a shadow of a doubt there is NOTHING a WRESTLER can do to change how someone feels about him is just ignorant. I could go down the list of wrestlers that all had lame CHARACTERS....which by the way thats what John Cena is he's a CHARACTER. John Cena is no different than Hunter Hearst Hemsley the blue blood, or Steve Austin the Ringmaster or The Rock as Rocky Maivia, or Sting as Blade, or any other number of guys who had a character that the entire world said "man this guy sucks he's never goign to get anywhere as that character" only to CHANGE characters and become great. Thats my exact point here. Its impossible to say "I don't like this guy because he'll never play a character I enjoy seeing" because Wrestling proves you wrong of this. And if you liked every character your favorite wrestlers of all time ever played then you're a liar. </p><p> </p><p> As I said I won't respond in here again because if you don't understand my argument and why I believes that 99.99999999 percent of the world including you disagree with SM82 refusing to ever like anything John Cena does no matter it is or how cool it might be is ignorant, delusional, short sighted and above all else just plain weird and crazy. Feel free to PM me to continue the discussion but you won't because you'd rather post in here so that the masses can read your four word reply and so that you can counter with such posts as "say no to drugs" which is such a riveting debate counter.</p><p> </p><p> On another note </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> This is exactly it. Think about it. John Cena has been on tv more than any other superstar in history. RAW, Smackdown, Velocity, Heat, NXT, ECW, Main Event, Superstars, 15 pay per views a year. And he's appeared on them ALL. During the Attitude Era up until 1998 it was just RAW and for quite a while it was a one hour show. Then Heat came and it was just one more hour. It wasn't until the END of 1999 that Smackdown even came about. The Rock was gone to Hollywood less than two years after the debut of Smackdown and Steve Austin only wrestled on Smackdown for around a year and a half before he retired. (since he got hurt in 99 and didn't come back until the end of 2000 and was gone in the summer of 2002.)</p><p> </p><p> So no wrestler on the planet has had the exposure that John Cena has had. Even Steve Austin by the time 2004 rolled around and he waas doing the Sheriff Austin schtick people didn't care about him. Hogan got big in 1983 by the time 1990 came along people were bored with him and back then there wasn't even a weekly wrestling show that he was featured on. You saw him a few times a month at best. The reason for most of the Cena backlash is character, over pushing, over saturatian, and the stale product. You're 100 percent right though that the product and just the sheer massive length of time he has been on television screens since his debut and him not being a heel in ten years I think has hurt him.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Since you, by this point, have already started debating this with other people that agree with me - the ones you said you would never see, remember? - it is time for me to clarify some of your own nonsense.</p><p> </p><p> The human mind doesn't always folllow a chain of logical reasoning. This is why a lot of people hate wrestler, actors or any other kind of performers all the time. Most of those people don't known them personally, so they don't hate the persons behind the characters, but they dispise the performers and all their work. This is why a lot of people hate everything someone does. They don't like their manerisms, voice, look, or the whole thing they have to offer as performers. That's why people hate - for exemple - Robert Pattinson and Kirsten Stewart, and will continue to do so, even if one day they come to put on brilliant, academy award winning performances. There isn't always logic to the human mind, and the ways it works.</p><p> </p><p> This is basicly how I feel about Cena. I don't know Cena the man, but I dislike Cena the performer. A lot of things about him are things I dislike. Some may be considered out of the logic realm, like hating his voice - especially when screaming "The Champ is heeeere!" - his manerisms, and things like that, others are logical, like hating his work that has been shoved down my throath for years. Combine them, and that is why I hate John Cena the performer, not the man. Some people will agree, some won't.</p><p> </p><p> Also, when you decide to come down from you pedestal, the one you always seem to be when defending Cena, you will also realise this:</p><p> </p><p> 1: There is nothing wrong with me stating I will probably never like anything he does. If everything about him ticks me off, it's very reasonable that I am aware that no matter how excelente his work may become one day, I will never like it.</p><p> </p><p> 2: I have never - ever, ever, ever - wasted my time, in these discussions we have, trying to tell you: "You need to hate Cena because I do!" In fact, if you ever come here and say to me that you dislike Shawn Michaels (Na exemple) as much as I dislike Cena, I could not care less. That would be your constitutional right, and you would be free to think that. So stop trying to show me any possible good things about him, I couldn't care less about that, I will never like him! Respect that! I don't care if you agree with my disliking, but you need to be pretty arrogante not to agree with my liberties. </p><p> </p><p> 3: I don't care how much of a nice person John Cena can be. I don't hate the person, I hate the performer. What he does in his personal time is his problem. But let me say that Make-a-Wish appearances and charity donations doesn't mean he is a great guy. How many evil men and corporations have already donated to charity since the begining of times? A lot. That doesn't make them good. And most of Cena's work around charity is a promotional tool to the WWE, and the WWE uses it that way. But even if he is the most nice man in the world, I could not care less.</p><p> </p><p> 4: The fact that you even began this discussion when my op post wasn't even adressed to you, mostly shows that if I am in some kind of rampage against John Cena (which I am not, just against his character and him as a performer) you seem to be on a ramapge to defend him. Do you love the man, or his character? Good for you! I don't care! I won't argue that, you are entitled to do so. As I am entitled to dislike him.</p><p> </p><p> 5: Like I said, the human mind isn't always logical in it's reasoning - emotions come to play in a lot of situations - and so a lot of people in this world hate performers that are considered skilled by others. I am not the only person doing this, nor is John Cena the only subject of these kinds of discussions in this world. That is why it is called OPINION. I also don't understand people who dislike Jennifer Lawrence's performance in Silver Linings Playbook, and I don't write mega huge posts trying to make them change their minds. I know it won't happen.</p><p> </p><p> So for the love of god, stop trying to debate something that isn't even debatable. I am entitled to hate Cena, I am entitled to express my dislike of him. You don't like it? Don't even comment. I wasn't even talking to you. DON'T EVER ADRESS ME ABOUT THIS! EVER AGAIN!</p><p> </p><p> Having said this, and like I already said a millions times before, I have no problems with you and I always respected you as a person, as well as your opinions. And I will always be willing to talk to you and listen to your opinions, and sometimes even ask to hear them. Just not on this subject.</p><p> </p><p> I hope I made myself clear. Take care.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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