The Official Superhero Discussion Thread

[cappyboy]

I personally like the new look. I know most older traditional fans wont agree, but DC as well as Marvel have to do something to increase comic book sales. I believe I read somewhere that sales numbers have fallen like 6 years in a row and that's with the big budget movies giving the characters a mainstream boost.

 

Color me unimpressed with the new Wonder Woman look and not for traditionalism reasons. That outfit looks like they threw several hero wardrobes into a blender and this was what got spat out. The top reminds me of Spiderman. The jacket while probably intended to be a nod to her classic look looks like Captain America to me. The gauntlets remind me of a Punisher type. And the pants look like something The Fantastic Four might wear if they were having a mid-life crisis.The only thing that really looks like Wonder Woman is that belt and the sash coming from it. The woman in the drawing is definitely attractive and I wouldn't mind being part of her reality. But she doesn't say Wonder Woman to me. She says "hot hero merch collector chick." Which would be great if she weren't meant to BE one of the marquee heroes herself.

[Linsolv]

<p>I don't like the costume. Cappy has his long reasons, but for me it's because she looks like an X-Men character. Somewhere between Rogue and Jubilee I think. Maybe a bit of Psylocke. If you say "X-Men" to me, the first thing that comes to mind is whiny and stupid. (Secretly, I'm not a fan of the X-Men) Wonder Woman, like Captain America or Superman, should NEVER EVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES come off that way. Some superheroes, it works for (Spiderman, X-Men, maybe Batman? Whiny but not stupid...) but those are the "heroic" superheroes. They need to be all courage and sunshine, and while they might have a tragic backstory they never quite get around to dwelling on it.</p><p> </p><p>

PS - To be honest, though, Wonder Woman to me seems like she's not really that good of a hero. I don't understand why people would read her comic. I would try to find them, but sitting in the local comic shop until someone comes in who can explain what is "good" about Wonder Woman seems kinda... creepy. And like a waste of time.</p>

[brashleyholland]

<p>So I'm just about caught up on The Boys, which is awesome as ever. Just read 'Herogasm' which is their obscenely-fantastic take on superhero crossovers and explains what <em>really</em> happens when all the worlds heroes team up to take on some giant, unspeakable evil. Brilliant stuff. </p><p> </p><p>

Also caught the first few issues of Mark Millar's Nemesis. If you've not heard of it, it runs on the basic premiss of "What if Batman were The Joker?" So you have this incredibly intelligent, infinitely resourceful multi-billionaire running around in a cool costume...only he's the bad guy. </p><p> </p><p>

Also read a few Punisher books recently. The Barracuda ones and one where he went to the Middle East. Love that character. </p><p> </p><p>

Anyone remember Sinister/Dexter?</p>

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I doubt that changing a character's costume is going to spark any sort of sales. I get what your saying something needs to change but costumes aren't really it. Comic sales are dropping because not as many people need them.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> First off, any major change to an iconic comic character leads to a bump in sales. That's proven fact. While "killing" them, breaks sales records (as Superman proved). But 'Son of Krypton' Superman's costume is vastly different from the 'iconic' one and that series outsold the regular Superman by almost 3 to 1.</p><p> </p><p> And people have never needed comics (food, water, shelter.....comics?).</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I never liked Wonder Woman and a new costume isn't going to change that <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> To be fair, I'm not a Wonder Woman fan either. However, Gail Simone's run on the title was extremely enjoyable. It was the only time (in over 30 years as a comic fan) that I bought a Wonder Woman title.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Color me unimpressed with the new Wonder Woman look and not for traditionalism reasons. That outfit looks like they threw several hero wardrobes into a blender and this was what got spat out. The top reminds me of Spiderman. The jacket while probably intended to be a nod to her classic look looks like Captain America to me. The gauntlets remind me of a Punisher type. And the pants look like something The Fantastic Four might wear if they were having a mid-life crisis.The only thing that really looks like Wonder Woman is that belt and the sash coming from it. The woman in the drawing is definitely attractive and I wouldn't mind being part of her reality. But she doesn't say Wonder Woman to me. She says "hot hero merch collector chick." Which would be great if she weren't meant to BE one of the marquee heroes herself.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Honestly cappyboy, while I appreciate your curmudgeon viewpoint, I think you're missing the point here. You don't change an iconic hero's look by tweaking the existing costume. It HAS to be a complete shock or else it won't be effective. Think of Spider-Man dropping the red & blue for black. The only similarity between the two costumes was the spider on the chest and back. For the less familiar, if Power Girl's costume changed, eliminating the window (perhaps she found something to put there after all), that would be a shock as well.</p><p> </p><p> I think the new costume is somewhat of a rip from the Xtreme X-Men uniform (most gracefully worn by <a href="http://www.kribbs.com/dodge/Sage.gif" rel="external nofollow">Sage</a>). While not a fan of WW (I prefer Wonder Girl. Cassie has much more personality), I do realize that when you're 52 years old as a character, the same ol' same ol' doesn't fly anymore. I just think the costume is too dark for the character. Yes, it's an extreme departure but I think the same effect could've been had with a lighter shade. This just seems like they're going with the 'black or near black = cool' line of thinking which is about 10 years out of date.</p><p> </p><p> But I'm not the typical comic fan (gee, what a surprise!). I despise Superman and Captain America (blind idealism is more stupid than words can express) and my favorite character of all time (and the one I identify with most) is Magneto.</p>

[Linsolv]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="brashleyholland" data-cite="brashleyholland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Also caught the first few issues of Mark Millar's Nemesis. If you've not heard of it, it runs on the basic premiss of "What if Batman were The Joker?" So you have this incredibly intelligent, infinitely resourceful multi-billionaire running around in a cool costume...only he's the bad guy. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I bought the 1st issue (second printing) on a whim, since my girlfriend likes to check for Cthulhu comics. I have kinda stopped reading comics since I stopped having money for them a few months ago, but it stood out. It was so good, I had to go back and get the second issue. GREAT stuff. Cannot recommend it enough.</p><p> </p><p> As to the comment about blind idealism, true. Ish. I like Captain America (less so, Superman) because he's not that great. As superheroes go, he's got a power level approximately that of Spider Man. But instead of sitting around moaning and complaining about how hard his life is, he's out there working his ass off to help everyone.</p><p> </p><p> However, there's a lot of room in my heart for the Thunderbolts.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Honestly cappyboy, while I appreciate your curmudgeon viewpoint, I think you're missing the point here. You don't change an iconic hero's look by tweaking the existing costume. It HAS to be a complete shock or else it won't be effective. Think of Spider-Man dropping the red & blue for black. The only similarity between the two costumes was the spider on the chest and back. For the less familiar, if Power Girl's costume changed, eliminating the window (perhaps she found something to put there after all), that would be a shock as well.<p> </p><p> I think the new costume is somewhat of a rip from the Xtreme X-Men uniform (most gracefully worn by <a href="http://www.kribbs.com/dodge/Sage.gif" rel="external nofollow">Sage</a>). While not a fan of WW (I prefer Wonder Girl. Cassie has much more personality), I do realize that when you're 52 years old as a character, the same ol' same ol' doesn't fly anymore. I just think the costume is too dark for the character. Yes, it's an extreme departure but I think the same effect could've been had with a lighter shade. This just seems like they're going with the 'black or near black = cool' line of thinking which is about 10 years out of date.</p><p> </p><p> But I'm not the typical comic fan (gee, what a surprise!). I despise Superman and Captain America (blind idealism is more stupid than words can express) and my favorite character of all time (and the one I identify with most) is Magneto.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My problem is more with the ****ty story accompanying the costume that will assuredly be limited in time and instantly forgotten. I don't get how writers still think stuff that is obviously not going to be part of continuity is a "jumping on" point- you're basically saying these stories won't matter once the storyline is over, so why shouldn't I just wait until that storyline is over? If Wonder Woman's character is as broken as JMS seems to think, why isn't he fixing it by changing the actual character organically instead of hitting a reset button?</p><p> </p><p> And JMS seems to think WW isn't a top seller because the character has become boring but Batman's character has been boring for decades and it doesn't stop his comics from selling because 1) Batman has constantly been featured in other media since 1989, 2) Batman has the best villains in comics, and 3) Batman comics have a lasting effect on the continuity of other DC Universe comics- if something important happens in Batman, it effects Robin, the Birds of Prey, Nightwing, etc. Wonder Woman has none of that going for her: she has a terrible rogue's gallery, isn't a staple of Saturday Morning television, and doesn't have an effect on the DC Universe as a whole. </p><p> </p><p> Also I think you're short-changing Cap by implying the character is based on "blind" idealism. While the character obviously has ideals, he's never been a blind follower and frequently comes into conflict with people with twisted versions of the ideals he's supposed to represent. And he's great in Avengers comics as a guy to rally around, even if he isn't the most exciting character.</p>

[Jaysin]

Anyone into Haunt? I read the first few issues and still need to get caught up, but I really loved it.

 

Also, I'm getting ready to start Spawn from the beginning. This one is going to take awhile

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Also I think you're short-changing Cap by implying the character is based on "blind" idealism. While the character obviously has ideals, he's never been a blind follower and frequently comes into conflict with people with twisted versions of the ideals he's supposed to represent. And he's great in Avengers comics as a guy to rally around, even if he isn't the most exciting character.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Actually I'm not. I have extensive experience with the character, unfortunately. From the WWII era books that my grandfather gave me (All-Winners as well as his own book) down to Secret Wars and onto the present, the Steve Rogers Captain America has always been led more by his ideals than the realities of his particular time. That's how he's portrayed and that's why I dislike him intensely. Sometimes, <em><strong>the bad guy has to die</strong></em> for the greater good. The Civil War storyline was an attempt to humanize him and make him more palatable to "real people" but it failed because it was so bloody transparent. (Just like House of M failed to make Wanda a compelling character whose powers don't suck) He's still not a top five popular character, The First Avenger isn't going to make him any more popular, and the student is surpassing the teacher, by all accounts. Hell, even "killing" him didn't register as much as a blip on the sales radar.</p><p> </p><p> I wrote Cap off over twenty years ago since his books shattered any suspension of disbelief that might have existed, triggering my 'C'mon' instincts several times per story arc. I won't deny he is an excellent leader for Marvel's secondary hero team (since we know what the primary one is) and he does have strengths in that area. But as a character, he's awfully dull. While not an absolute measure, one possible way of determining that is a simple question: how many times have the primary series of Spider-Man, Wolverine, or the Hulk been canceled due to low sales? How's that number match up with Cap's? Now, that's not an insult at all since one of my all-time favorite characters has had her book canceled on numerous occasions (I'm talking of course about She-Hulk) but popular characters that resonate with audiences don't tend to have that happen.</p>

[Jaysin]

I was never a fan of Captain America either. I didn't really like him until the Ultimates came out. I did like that version of him for some reason.

[randomfreeze]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Anyone into Haunt? I read the first few issues and still need to get caught up, but I really loved it.<p> </p><p> Also, I'm getting ready to start Spawn from the beginning. This one is going to take awhile</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I can't get through Spawn. I've got the first 15 issues, and I've probably read the first three issues three or four time, trying to start again...but it just doesn't jive with me. I think I'm just anti-McFarlane. I haven't tried Haunt at all...but besides his run on Spider-Man, McFarlane's stuff just doesn't sync up with me. If it's your first time through Spawn though, it'll be cool to hear your reactions to it so keep us up to date.</p><p> </p><p> Right now I'm rereading Christopher Priest's run on Black Panther. Probably my favorite take on a Marvel character in the past 15 years.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Honestly cappyboy, while I appreciate your curmudgeon viewpoint, I think you're missing the point here. You don't change an iconic hero's look by tweaking the existing costume. It HAS to be a complete shock or else it won't be effective. Think of Spider-Man dropping the red & blue for black. The only similarity between the two costumes was the spider on the chest and back. For the less familiar, if Power Girl's costume changed, eliminating the window (perhaps she found something to put there after all), that would be a shock as well.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> And I think you're missing mine. I'm not saying don't shake things up. I'm saying if your going to shake stuff up then you know SHAKE STUFF UP. There's nothing there that's shocking or "Oh my God. THAT'S Wonder Woman?!!" in that new version. There's "who is this person and why does she look like several people smashed together?" A hero raiding the closets of other heroes isn't shocking. It's lame and pathetic. And I wouldn't be surprised if it gets DC sued for infringement as many pieces as there are that look like they came from Marvel characters. If Wonder Woman didn't get disrespected enough already, this is only going to make things worse. Imagine being uninitiated an having this be your introduction to Wonder Woman. You wouldn't know she's an icon dressed like this. She looks like some cheap Janie-come-lately ripoff.</p>

[Jaysin]

I can't get through Spawn. I've got the first 15 issues, and I've probably read the first three issues three or four time, trying to start again...but it just doesn't jive with me. I think I'm just anti-McFarlane. I haven't tried Haunt at all...but besides his run on Spider-Man, McFarlane's stuff just doesn't sync up with me. If it's your first time through Spawn though, it'll be cool to hear your reactions to it so keep us up to date.

 

Over winter break and into spring I got pretty far into Spawn, but I couldn't remember what issue I left off on so I'm just starting over. I'm only three issues deep now, but I'm certainly enjoying it. I think, I may start reading Savage Dragon from the beginning too if I can track him down. I was always a Dragon fan, but was never able to keep updated on him.

[Remianen]

And I think you're missing mine. I'm not saying don't shake things up. I'm saying if your going to shake stuff up then you know SHAKE STUFF UP. There's nothing there that's shocking or "Oh my God. THAT'S Wonder Woman?!!" in that new version.

 

Then everyone associated with comics in even an ancillary manner, as well as several mainstream media outlets, disagrees with you. Wonder Woman's costume is/was iconic. It's probably what she's best known for. Take that away, in as blatant a manner as possible, and people react with shock. They don't even use the same color scheme.

 

I agree with you that the costume isn't very imaginative. But to say it's not 'shocking', is just not true. It might not be shocking to you (or to me) but if you google 'wonder woman new costume' and look at fan and media reactions, you'll see that it is indeed VERY shocking to them.

 

Wonder Woman's costume was very much a part of her identity. This isn't The Huntress we're talking about. Just like the big S on the chest is for that other guy or the bat on the chest of what's-his-name or the window in Power Girl's or the spider on Spider-Man's. When you go from red & gold to purple/black/whatever the hell it is, and on top of that turn the revealing costume into a burqa comparatively speaking, that's...well, shocking.

[Linsolv]

<p>Okay, Remi, I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. You TEND to make me look like a fool whenever I talk back to you.</p><p> </p><p>

But Captain America has gone through, by my count, 5 "stages," and as it happens they roughly match up with his printings. The 1st printing was blatant propoganda. That's the WW2 stuff.</p><p> </p><p>

Then was his 2nd run, which was hilariously short, poorly drawn, and really a waste of time. It was only 1 calendar year, and not worth mention.</p><p> </p><p>

Then his 3rd run, where he was fighting guys like AIM and other basically generic villains as a rogues gallery that to be honest I find boring as a fan of his. Not that it stopped me from reading it.</p><p> </p><p>

His 4th run was where he, IMO, began to really develop as a character. To be honest its my favorite one, though I haven't read much of the 5th series. He starts it off by killing a [bad] guy essentially in cold blood, and then because he's so ashamed, he unmasks on national television. So I'd have to say, yeah. He puts his morals first, but when he has to go against them, he's willing to personally pay the cost and not hide behind his mask. I think that's a good message to be sending to our children, and I can only approve of it.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>But as a character, he's awfully dull. While not an absolute measure, one possible way of determining that is a simple question: how many times have the primary series of Spider-Man, Wolverine, or the Hulk been canceled due to low sales? How's that number match up with Cap's? Now, that's not an insult at all since one of my all-time favorite characters has had her book canceled on numerous occasions (I'm talking of course about She-Hulk) but popular characters that resonate with audiences don't tend to have that happen.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm not even much of a Cap fan (although this current run has been fantastic), but that's an awful measure of whether a character is dull, especially coming from mr. "I hate everything mainstream." Also you probably could've thought of a better example: Hulk was canceled in 1999, then again in 2000, then his 2000 title turned into Incredible Hercules so he was given another book in 2008, and so on. The point is, re-boots, relaunches, etc., happen unless you are a top selling comic, so it really has no bearing on how interesting the character is. Even Deadpool, who's hot now, couldn't sustain a book 10 years ago. To suggest that popular characters that resonate don't have that happen seriously misunderstands the state of the comic book market in the past 15-20 years, and if we go back to when the industry was actually healthy, Cap was never canceled. </p><p> </p><p> I mean seriously there's so many great characters that can't long-term support their own book but that has more to do with the marketplace then how interesting the characters are. Immortal Iron Fist, the Runaways (canceled three times), Gotham Central, She-Hulk (canceled twice in the past decade) are just a handful of great comics that didn't last regardless of how interesting their protagonists were/are.</p>

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Linsolv" data-cite="Linsolv" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>His 4th run was where he, IMO, began to really develop as a character. To be honest its my favorite one, though I haven't read much of the 5th series. He starts it off by killing a [bad] guy essentially in cold blood, and then because he's so ashamed, he unmasks on national television. So I'd have to say, yeah. He puts his morals first, but when he has to go against them, he's willing to personally pay the cost and not hide behind his mask. I think that's a good message to be sending to our children, and I can only approve of it.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So one event defines a character? If Wolverine refrained from killing someone, would that make him a pacifist? I don't tend to judge characters based on what happens in one issue (or story arc). I judge them based on the totality of their portrayal. Scarlet Witch isn't the most powerful mutant in the Marvel Universe based on the events of House of M. Jean Grey isn't a genocidal murderer because she consumed an inhabited planet as Dark Phoenix. Those events don't constitute the totality of a character's portrayal.</p><p> </p><p> Oh and is going underground and leading an armed/powered insurgency against a lawfully passed piece of legislation you don't agree with also a message you want to send to "our children"? Cap did that too. Don't get me wrong, I agreed with him in that case but it was simply a transparent attempt to humanize him, from my perspective, since it went against almost everything the character has previously stood for (and most of his previous characterization). The Steve Rogers Captain America (and I make the distinction because others who have worn the mantle, I don't have a problem with. John Walker ROCKED, for example. Much like Guy Gardner in the Green Lantern Corps. Kyle whatshisface (Raynor?) to a lesser extent too) has always been a "letter" over "spirit" type, with regard to the law. Even if he didn't like a law, he'd abide by it uncomfortably. Now all of a sudden, he's a "fight the power" type? Again, as happened when I first followed the series, I have to say: C'mon.</p><p> </p><p> Personal responsibility is indeed an admirable trait to portray in an artform that's largely followed by school age children (or was at one time). But thinking that ONE event defines a character would mean that Robbie Baldwin (Speedball) is a mass murderer and Dr. Doom is a hero for delivering Valeria Richards when no one else could. As I said, my dislike of the character isn't about what happened last week or last month or last year. It's fifty plus years of characterization.</p>

[Jaysin]

Does anyone know where I can find a reading order for Spawn and the offshoots like Violator, Angela, Bloodfeud etc etc?

 

I know at the end of certain issues it tells you the story is continued in one of the offshoots, but I want to make sure I have them before I get that far.

[Linsolv]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Personal responsibility is indeed an admirable trait to portray in an artform that's largely followed by school age children (or was at one time). But thinking that ONE event defines a character would mean that Robbie Baldwin (Speedball) is a mass murderer and Dr. Doom is a hero for delivering Valeria Richards when no one else could. As I said, my dislike of the character isn't about what happened last week or last month or last year. It's fifty plus years of characterization.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Speedball DOES have a problem being pretty convinced he's a mass murderer. In fact, that's why he came back a few years ago as Penance, whose suit is filled with metal spikes that gouge him every time he moves.</p><p> </p><p> Oh, obscure superhero teams...</p><p> </p><p> ---</p><p> </p><p> Also, the politics of the Civil War are pretty complicated to my eyes. That'd be more like saying "If you thought someone was being remarkably like Hitler, but he was the president, is it wrong to try to kill him?" Which... I mean, Nurenburg would tell me "no it is not wrong," but most people would say it is.</p>

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm not even much of a Cap fan (although this current run has been fantastic), but that's an awful measure of whether a character is dull, especially coming from mr. "I hate everything mainstream."</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Please, point out a quote when I've said what you've portrayed me to have said? I'm a travel agent, y0. Mainstream pays for my bling. Any idea how many people I send to the freakin' Bahamas every year? How 'bout Cancun/South Padre Island/Negril/Panama City Beach/Lake Havasu for Spring Break? I don't like mainstream in some areas because it's basic, dumbed down garbage with a weak message meant to appeal to (and be understood by) the most people without the possibility of offending any one of them. It's 'Mormon Tabernacle Choir' creatively.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Also you probably could've thought of a better example: Hulk was canceled in 1999, then again in 2000, then his 2000 title turned into Incredible Hercules so he was given another book in 2008, and so on. The point is, re-boots, relaunches, etc., happen unless you are a top selling comic, so it really has no bearing on how interesting the character is. Even Deadpool, who's hot now, couldn't sustain a book 10 years ago. To suggest that popular characters that resonate don't have that happen seriously misunderstands the state of the comic book market in the past 15-20 years, and if we go back to when the industry was actually healthy, Cap was never canceled.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> If we go back to when the comic industry was healthy, I'd be in high school. Been quite a while since that was the case. *shrug* You want to go to bat for Captain America, awesome! Someone has to. Doesn't mean I have to like or tolerate him though. I have my reasons for disliking him and there's nothing you or anyone else can or has said (or will say) to dissuade me. I despise Superman too. G'head, tell me why I'm wrong.</p>

[GruntMark]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> </p><p> Discuss. <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Is a bit silly. And the choker and jacket are pushing it a bit close to Dinah.</p><p> </p><p> However, maybe thats intentional. After all, Canary has been written fairly consistently and well for the last several years.</p><p> </p><p> And is awesome.</p><p> </p><p> And on that note, while I havent gotten around to reading Simone's work on WW yet, Im thrilled she's back on BoP. And Secret Six? Absolutely amazing.</p><p> </p><p> Back to the costume of WW, the bikini briefswere about the only outright silly part (well, as silly has any super hero or villian costume). I know Ive seen her somewhere with a more battle/Greekish looking skirt thing that would have been/is much better looking.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Personal responsibility is indeed an admirable trait to portray in an artform that's largely followed by school age children (or was at one time). But thinking that ONE event defines a character would mean that Robbie Baldwin (Speedball) is a mass murderer and Dr. Doom is a hero for delivering Valeria Richards when no one else could. As I said, my dislike of the character isn't about what happened last week or last month or last year. It's fifty plus years of characterization.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I agree John Walker and Guy Gardner are awesome.</p><p> </p><p> Also it's pretty weird that Robbie Baldwin would be portrayed as a mass murderer since he never murdered anyone? Even negligent homicide would be an extreme stretch. But then again, Mark Millar isn't much of a writer when it comes to details.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If we go back to when the comic industry was healthy, I'd be in high school. Been quite a while since that was the case. *shrug* You want to go to bat for Captain America, awesome! Someone has to. Doesn't mean I have to like or tolerate him though. I have my reasons for disliking him and there's nothing you or anyone else can or has said (or will say) to dissuade me. I despise Superman too. G'head, tell me why I'm wrong.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm not telling you you have to love Steve Rogers, I'm just saying "this character is bad- look how many times his book's been rebooted" is a pretty terrible argument in the comic book industry, where that happens all the time and almost any quality book the big 2 puts out not under the Vertigo or Epic imprint is going to be canceled regardless of how interesting the character is. </p><p> </p><p> And why would I talk you out of disliking Superman? Superman comics are awful. Somehow that guy is more preachy than someone who wears a flag on his costume!</p>

[GatorBait19]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I agree John Walker and Guy Gardner are awesome.<p> </p><p> Also it's pretty weird that Robbie Baldwin would be portrayed as a mass murderer since he never murdered anyone? Even negligent homicide would be an extreme stretch. But then again, Mark Millar isn't much of a writer when it comes to details.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> I'm not telling you you have to love Steve Rogers, I'm just saying "this character is bad- look how many times his book's been rebooted" is a pretty terrible argument in the comic book industry, where that happens all the time and almost any quality book the big 2 puts out not under the Vertigo or Epic imprint is going to be canceled regardless of how interesting the character is. </p><p> </p><p> <strong>And why would I talk you out of disliking Superman? Superman comics are awful. Somehow that guy is more preachy than someone who wears a flag on his costume</strong>!</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I agree, as much as I love Superman I hate reading his comics. They are quite dull in my opinon</p>

[mike b]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="GatorBait19" data-cite="GatorBait19" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I agree, as much as I love Superman I hate reading his comics. They are quite dull in my opinon</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I showed this to Supes and he was not to happy</p><p> </p><p> <a href="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i241/uwohali/b9d9d5d0.jpg" rel="external nofollow">http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i241/uwohali/b9d9d5d0.jpg</a></p><p> </p><p> See you in the 0900 verse were his last words.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Oh and by the way D/C Online is looking better and better and has gotten some raving reviews from those who have got to play it at latest comic con's.</p><p> </p><p> A little something extra</p><p> <a href="http://www.dcuosource.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-latest-news/480-dcuo-cinematic-preview" rel="external nofollow">http://www.dcuosource.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-latest-news/480-dcuo-cinematic-preview</a></p>

[GatorBait19]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="mike b" data-cite="mike b" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I showed this to Supes and he was not to happy<p> </p><p> <a href="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i241/uwohali/b9d9d5d0.jpg" rel="external nofollow">http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i241/uwohali/b9d9d5d0.jpg</a></p><p> </p><p> See you in the 0900 verse were his last words.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Oh and by the way D/C Online is looking better and better and has gotten some raving reviews from those who have got to play it at latest comic con's.</p><p> </p><p> A little something extra</p><p> <a href="http://www.dcuosource.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-latest-news/480-dcuo-cinematic-preview" rel="external nofollow">http://www.dcuosource.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-latest-news/480-dcuo-cinematic-preview</a></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> nice drawing</p>

[mike b]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="GatorBait19" data-cite="GatorBait19" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25920" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>nice drawing</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Dats not my drawing but it is good</p>