The Official ROH Discussion Thread

[BHK1978]

<p>It also did not help that Cody, The Bucks, and Omega went off to form their own promotion (Personally the only one out of that group I view as a star is Cody but most disagree with me). The NJPW thing partly killed my interest in the company. I will admit that I simply do not care about Japanese wrestling, I have tried to and I just have never taken to it. The only Japanese wrestlers that I have ever really liked were Muta and Liger, other than that I just do not care.</p><p> </p><p>

Therefore, when ROH decided to push NJPW wrestlers over their own, I just stopped caring about their product. I agree with you, it seems they pushed outside talent at the expense of their own talent.</p>

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It also did not help that Cody, The Bucks, and Omega went off to form their own promotion (Personally the only one out of that group I view as a star is Cody but most disagree with me). The NJPW thing partly killed my interest in the company. I will admit that I simply do not care about Japanese wrestling, I have tried to and I just have never taken to it. The only Japanese wrestlers that I have ever really liked were Muta and Liger, other than that I just do not care.<p> </p><p> Therefore, when ROH decided to push NJPW wrestlers over their own, I just stopped caring about their product. I agree with you, it seems they pushed outside talent at the expense of their own talent.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Cody is actually the lesser of the 4 main Elite members. As a pure draw, the Bucks actually do more business than Cody and Omega do worldwide. They have a very loyal fanbase that follows them everywhere. Obviously, Omega is MASSIVE in certain markets and Cody does well-adding cache to a show, but he's never really drawn anywhere that I've noticed. He's also unquestionably the lesser worker of the 4. But again, it's a bit like comparing Ben and Jerry's ice cream flavors. You kinda want them all at the end of your checkout counter, they'll sell.</p><p> </p><p> As to ROH pushing NJPW guys over their own, I very much disagree, They call themselves the Best in the World and are a wrestling product. Obviously, when the genuine article arrives and you put Matt Taven besides Okada you're going to get shit on. That's their fault for not living up to their own standard.</p>

[cappyboy]

I would have been far happier with Taylor getting an out of the blue ROH title win then Taven, to be perfectly honest. They do seem to be giving Kenny King a bit of a push though as he won the Honor Rumble at the Supercard and, if memory serves, actually got a pinfall on Jay Lethal during a tag match. My current hope is that Taven's title win is just a way to transition it onto King, who I can at least tolerate.

 

Can't see that at all. Taylor feels like he needs a TV run or two. Maybe replace Keith Lee and get a tag run or two. He certainly comes off like someone they want to get there eventually. But some "lesser" gold to give him more cache' and make him feel more world-worthy would seem to be in order before he wins a title that's supposed to represent the best of the best. Conversely argue whether Taven should have the resume' he does if you want. But on paper, he's very much a credible champion. You rush Taylor to the top too quickly and he buckles under the weight, there goes a sizable chunk of his career. All that potential goes to waste and now you gotta find a prospect to fill his gap.

 

As for Kenny King, I suppose that could be a plan. He's one of those guys who's spent a large chunk of his career with the company and built up a resume one could argue is world title worthy. But I don't if they really are pushing him quite hard enough. He doesn't seem to be getting quite the TV exposure or quality of storyline you'd expect from world title contender. Honestly I don't know if he even has a story of note going at the moment. He's felt more organic the last couple of years or so than he used to so there is that. But whether they could put the gold on him without rushing it right now I don't know. Then again, to be fair, the story of how Taven won the real world title felt awfully rushed and mismanaged as well.

[Jaysin]

Maybe I'm bias because I've followed him for 10+ years, but I'd love for Shane Taylor to get a shot at a main event run at some point. Okay, I'm majorly bias.

[MightyDavidson]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Can't see that at all. Taylor feels like he needs a TV run or two. Maybe replace Keith Lee and get a tag run or two. He certainly comes off like someone they want to get there eventually. But some "lesser" gold to give him more cache' and make him feel more world-worthy would seem to be in order before he wins a title that's supposed to represent the best of the best. Conversely argue whether Taven should have the resume' he does if you want. But on paper, he's very much a credible champion. You rush Taylor to the top too quickly and he buckles under the weight, there goes a sizable chunk of his career. All that potential goes to waste and now you gotta find a prospect to fill his gap.<p> </p><p> As for Kenny King, I suppose that could be a plan. He's one of those guys who's spent a large chunk of his career with the company and built up a resume one could argue is world title worthy. But I don't if they really are pushing him quite hard enough. He doesn't seem to be getting quite the TV exposure or quality of storyline you'd expect from world title contender. Honestly I don't know if he even has a story of note going at the moment. He's felt more organic the last couple of years or so than he used to so there is that. But whether they could put the gold on him without rushing it right now I don't know. Then again, to be fair, the story of how Taven won the real world title felt awfully rushed and mismanaged as well.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah stinking up the ROH TV show with a dull and obnoxious conspiracy angle does not make one a credible champion. The only times Taven has been tolerable were when he was with the House of Truth being managed by Truth Martini or when he was the flunky of Adam Cole and Mike Bennett in the original Kingdom. On his own he's just bland and, to be honest, he's a big part of the reason I stopped watching ROH TV in the first place.</p>

[milamber]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MightyDavidson" data-cite="MightyDavidson" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah stinking up the ROH TV show with a dull and obnoxious conspiracy angle does not make one a credible champion. The only times Taven has been tolerable were when he was with the House of Truth being managed by Truth Martini or when he was the flunky of Adam Cole and Mike Bennett in the original Kingdom. On his own he's just bland and, to be honest, he's a big part of the reason I stopped watching ROH TV in the first place.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Whatever happened to Truth Martini? I would love to see him in NXT. The fact that they signed Big Stoke shows Hunter is interested in using managers again.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MightyDavidson" data-cite="MightyDavidson" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah stinking up the ROH TV show with a dull and obnoxious conspiracy angle does not make one a credible champion. The only times Taven has been tolerable were when he was with the House of Truth being managed by Truth Martini or when he was the flunky of Adam Cole and Mike Bennett in the original Kingdom. On his own he's just bland and, to be honest, he's a big part of the reason I stopped watching ROH TV in the first place.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well, I did say ON PAPER</p>

[MightyDavidson]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Well, I did say ON PAPER</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Fair enough. Not like he's the source of the problem anyhow, that'd be Delirious' booking. I mean Gabe Sapolsky (hope I spelled that right) would bring over Japanese guys from NOAH and Dragon Age fairly regularly when he was booking and it never overshadowed the regulars so perhaps a better booker could figure out how to deal with the issue?</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MightyDavidson" data-cite="MightyDavidson" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Fair enough. Not like he's the source of the problem anyhow, that'd be Delirious' booking. I mean Gabe Sapolsky (hope I spelled that right) would bring over Japanese guys from NOAH and Dragon Age fairly regularly when he was booking and it never overshadowed the regulars so perhaps a better booker could figure out how to deal with the issue?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Now here's a point we can certainly agree on. The workers may go out to the ring with the lemons they are given and make lemonade. But why do you gotta keep giving them lemons? Give the book to someone who knows how to do it in a sensible manner.</p>

[MightyDavidson]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Now here's a point we can certainly agree on. The workers may go out to the ring with the lemons they are given and make lemonade. But why do you gotta keep giving them lemons? Give the book to someone who knows how to do it in a sensible manner.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Agreed. Hell Taven wasn't even given fresh lemons, he got left over lemons from the run up to Jay Briscoe's second title run. Anyway, who would you suggest as Delirious' replacement?</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MightyDavidson" data-cite="MightyDavidson" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Agreed. Hell Taven wasn't even given fresh lemons, he got left over lemons from the run up to Jay Briscoe's second title run. Anyway, who would you suggest as Delirious' replacement?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> No idea. That question is above my pay grade as a fan. It's like when the GM gets fired in the NFL. If my Browns are looking for a head coach, I can debate those candidates easily. But if the GM gets sacked I don't even know the execs available for consideration.</p>

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>No idea. That question is above my pay grade as a fan. It's like when the GM gets fired in the NFL. If my Browns are looking for a head coach, I can debate those candidates easily. But if the GM gets sacked I don't even know the execs available for consideration.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm hearing from various dirtsheets that Bully Ray and somebody else is running the book with the execs meddling. (see: Enzo and Cass) so if that's the case, makes sense why the show is turning into Impact. But who knows, ROH isn't a high priority in wrestling right now, hasn't been since Steen and Generico left.</p>

[TheGhost]

<p>I could see where Corporate aka (Sinclair) meddling would fit with the whole Enzo and Cass thing. BUT, it has yet to be announced or even confirmed that they are with the company.</p><p> </p><p>

Secondly, I feel really bad right now for ROH. They have a juggernaut of a company behind them but they aren't using it to it's full potential. </p><p> </p><p>

Sinclair has enough money to play the contract game with AEW and WWE. And why they aren't throwing money at bigger names to stay or come in baffles me.</p><p> </p><p>

I hate to say it but Sinclair is the reason ROH is in the state it's in right now. I mean --- they give ROH a shitty timeslot on a network NOBODY gets, its sad when back in 07 or 08? I believe, ROH was on HDNet on Monday's right before RAW, and they didnt have the financial power then, and were still in a decent timeslot on a station people actually got.</p><p> </p><p>

And yes they have been a booking nightmare for a while, how in the hell do you screw up your WOH division so quickly? You had Tenille Dashwood on your roster, someone with name value, and yet you had Sumie Sakai as your champion? Where the hell does that make sense? I mean I understand she was with ROH forever, and it was a nice way to say thank you, but dear god.</p><p> </p><p>

And from a booking standpoint ROH needs to ditch the Six-Man titles for now, they don't have a big enough roster for it. And it seems to stay on the same people, or they put it on people who already have titles, and then the belts are forgotten about.</p><p> </p><p>

And to further cement that statement the Main Event Sunday is The Kingdom vs. Villain Enterprises for the Six-Man titles, which means The Kingdom will probably get them back as this is technically Marty's last contractual show for ROH. So they will be giving them to a group who's leader is World Champ.</p>

[guyver3]

Sinclair has network television all across the US they put ROH in far more homes then HD net ever did. In my area I can watch ROH on 2 different channels at 3 different times if memory serves me and it’s free tv. While I’ll agree that the time slots may not be the best they still have a much wider audience.

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheGhost" data-cite="TheGhost" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> </p><p> And from a booking standpoint ROH needs to ditch the Six-Man titles for now, they don't have a big enough roster for it. And it seems to stay on the same people, or they put it on people who already have titles, and then the belts are forgotten about.</p><p> </p><p> And to further cement that statement the Main Event Sunday is The Kingdom vs. Villain Enterprises for the Six-Man titles, which means The Kingdom will probably get them back as this is technically Marty's last contractual show for ROH. So they will be giving them to a group who's leader is World Champ.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> There's never really a good reason to have them in the first place. It's not like we're talking about Mexico and this is a lucha libre company. American companies almost never know what to do with six-man titles and they always tend to become afterthoughts. Much as I love tag team wrestling, I would happily never see another American company have six man belts ever again. The long term support for them is never there</p>

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheGhost" data-cite="TheGhost" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I could see where Corporate aka (Sinclair) meddling would fit with the whole Enzo and Cass thing. BUT, it has yet to be announced or even confirmed that they are with the company.<p> </p><p> Secondly, I feel really bad right now for ROH. They have a juggernaut of a company behind them but they aren't using it to it's full potential. </p><p> </p><p> Sinclair has enough money to play the contract game with AEW and WWE. And why they aren't throwing money at bigger names to stay or come in baffles me.</p><p> </p><p> I hate to say it but Sinclair is the reason ROH is in the state it's in right now. I mean --- they give ROH a shitty timeslot on a network NOBODY gets, its sad when back in 07 or 08? I believe, ROH was on HDNet on Monday's right before RAW, and they didnt have the financial power then, and were still in a decent timeslot on a station people actually got.</p><p> </p><p> And yes they have been a booking nightmare for a while, how in the hell do you screw up your WOH division so quickly? You had Tenille Dashwood on your roster, someone with name value, and yet you had Sumie Sakai as your champion? Where the hell does that make sense? I mean I understand she was with ROH forever, and it was a nice way to say thank you, but dear god.</p><p> </p><p> And from a booking standpoint ROH needs to ditch the Six-Man titles for now, they don't have a big enough roster for it. And it seems to stay on the same people, or they put it on people who already have titles, and then the belts are forgotten about.</p><p> </p><p> And to further cement that statement the Main Event Sunday is The Kingdom vs. Villain Enterprises for the Six-Man titles, which means The Kingdom will probably get them back as this is technically Marty's last contractual show for ROH. So they will be giving them to a group who's leader is World Champ.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Dashwood was on a short-term deal that expired during her Psoriasis breakout. So that's why she didn't get the belt. Expect to see her #AllElite fairly soon. She's clearly interested. Sinclair has been more focused right now in trying to gain as many regional TV outlets as they can to flood local TV News with right-wing garbage than it is in investing in a wrestling company. Also, Sinclair may own these regional networks, but they're more reminiscent of the old Fox Sports model in that they're all separate programming. They apparently can ask, but if Nevada WXOP(made up) sees no ratings in it, it gets put on at 3 AM when they can't get infomercial money. So it's not a national broadcaster. It's just a TV rights holding company really. This is what Beacon(or w/e it's called) is supposed to fix. But in this "skinny" bundle era, being in the 700s in the channel listings is the pits.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Makhai" data-cite="Makhai" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Sinclair has been more focused right now in trying to gain as many regional TV outlets as they can to flood local TV News with right-wing garbage than it is in investing in a wrestling company. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Don't know how much I would put on this actually. But then the only Sinclair station I can attest to directly is the one here in Hampton Roads and they don't even have a local news cast. I have heard that Sinclair stations with newscasts do take an alternative bent to the average bear's. But not having one of those stations I can't really judge. Which is strange because a right-wing oriented newscast would be well received in a military-minded market like this. TVZ could just be the exception to the rule. I don't know. But this area seems like a pretty weird place to have that exception be.</p>

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Don't know how much I would put on this actually. But then the only Sinclair station I can attest to directly is the one here in Hampton Roads and they don't even have a local news cast. I have heard that Sinclair stations with newscasts do take an alternative bent to the average bear's. But not having one of those stations I can't really judge. Which is strange because a right-wing oriented newscast would be well received in a military-minded market like this. TVZ could just be the exception to the rule. I don't know. But this area seems like a pretty weird place to have that exception be.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is just one of the examples, but it's the most clear. They force anchors to read scripts of vile filth, or they tape these Breitbart-esque vignettes about immigration or w/e and they force the stations to play them. I don't care which side of the aisle you sit. They're trying to turn your local news into Fox News 2.0. </p><p> </p><p> </p><div class="ipsEmbeddedVideo"><div><iframe width="200" height="113" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/aGIYU2Xznb4?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="" title="Sinclair requires anchors to read script bashing 'fake' news"></iframe></div></div>

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Don't know how much I would put on this actually. But then the only Sinclair station I can attest to directly is the one here in Hampton Roads and they don't even have a local news cast. I have heard that Sinclair stations with newscasts do take an alternative bent to the average bear's. But not having one of those stations I can't really judge. Which is strange because a right-wing oriented newscast would be well received in a military-minded market like this. TVZ could just be the exception to the rule. I don't know. But this area seems like a pretty weird place to have that exception be.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I've never understood why Republicans win the military vote. Do you know who's fought for military pay increases? VA expansion, post-education funding? Voted for every GI and first responders bill ever pretty much? Democrats. Republicans wave the flag and win the votes though. Baffling.</p>

[TheGhost]

<p>Ok, back on topic guys, wrong place for political discussion, take that shit elsewhere, we are here to talk about ROH, not which side of the fence you sit on.</p><p> </p><p>

So Masters of the Craft is tonight, and the card actually looks pretty decent. A rather light card in terms of matches so cross fingers they add another match or two before bell time. But the card so far is...</p><p> </p><p>

The Kingdom vs. Villain Enterprises - ROH Six Man Titles</p><p>

Soberano, Jr. vs. Rush</p><p>

Jay Lethal/Jonathan Gresham vs. Tracy Williams/Mark Haskins - 30 Min. Iron Man Tag</p><p>

PJ Black vs. Bandido vs. Caristico vs. Flip Gordon</p><p>

Briscoes/Silas Young/Shane Taylor vs. Bouncers/Coast 2 Coast</p><p>

Jenny Rose vs. Holidead</p><p> </p><p>

Like I said very light card, but the iron man tag, four corners, and rush vs. soberano all look to be stellar.</p>

[milamber]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheGhost" data-cite="TheGhost" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Ok, back on topic guys, wrong place for political discussion, take that shit elsewhere, we are here to talk about ROH, not which side of the fence you sit on.<p> </p><p> So Masters of the Craft is tonight, and the card actually looks pretty decent. A rather light card in terms of matches so cross fingers they add another match or two before bell time. But the card so far is...</p><p> </p><p> The Kingdom vs. Villain Enterprises - ROH Six Man Titles</p><p> Soberano, Jr. vs. Rush</p><p> Jay Lethal/Jonathan Gresham vs. Tracy Williams/Mark Haskins - 30 Min. Iron Man Tag</p><p> PJ Black vs. Bandido vs. Caristico vs. Flip Gordon</p><p> Briscoes/Silas Young/Shane Taylor vs. Bouncers/Coast 2 Coast</p><p> Jenny Rose vs. Holidead</p><p> </p><p> Like I said very light card, but the iron man tag, four corners, and rush vs. soberano all look to be stellar.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Caristico is original Sin Cara who had legit heat with PJ Black (Justin Gabriel) in WWE among others. That should be interesting.</p>

[TheGhost]

Yeah I am highly interested in how this plays out, if it goes into a full shoot my money is on PJ.

[TheGhost]

So Masters of the Craft is in the books, and since my wife and I decided to make the trip to Columbus for the show, I have a few live notes.

 

1.) This show was not a sell out. Which is scary, usually Columbus sells quickly, but there were people walking up when doors opened and bought ringside tickets.

 

2.)The guys in the Kingdom were really cool. I was at the merch table picking up a t-shirt, and as the Kingdom was coming over to do meet and greets, Matt Taven saw my No Melvins shirt I was wearing, and he and the guys walked over and shook my hand and said thank you for the support and actually talked with me for a couple of minutes while their meet and greet line formed...Also on a side note, the ROH World Title is beautiful up close, I've had the opportunity to see the old school Big Gold belt up close, and damn does it give it a run for its money, the replicas don't look anywhere near as good as the real deal.

 

3.) TONS of Enzo and Cass hate at the show, lots of remarks were made about the two showing up...which thankfully they didn't, they are not over at all with the ROH crowd.

 

4.)I have yet to watch the replay of the show, but after the Six Man Title match Marty grabbed a microphone and stated that he was there to help make the Six Man Tag Titles the best in the company. I am curious to see where this goes because Marty's contract is supposedly up at the end of this month, so I predicted a title swap here. Things could get interesting if Marty wins the NWA Worlds Championship in 2 weeks.

 

5.) They just announced the match, but they seem to be going in the direction of PCO as a future world champion, I do not like this move, PCO is a good background player, but he is not someone you have carry your company, this would be a step backwards if he is too beat Taven so soon.

 

6.) Caristico/Sin Cara had a botch last night, and it was not during his match, he botched his entrance, he posed on the wrong side of the stage for the pyro, and the laughter ensued around me.

[MightyDavidson]

Putting the belt on PCO seems like a good choice to me. He's super popular right now for one thing, not as popular as Marty Scurll perhaps but he still gets big reactions from the fans and he's very good in the ring as well. Sure his age means it won't likely be a long reign but there's no shame in riding that wave of popularity while you build up new guys.

[Warhawk8492]

Anyone going to watch Best In the World?