The Official ROH Discussion Thread

[MightyDavidson]

Poor attendances. Rumblings of New Japan thinking twice about their partnership. Could be an exodus coming (Scurll, Rush, Bandido, Lee, Klein). According to Joey (backed up by Kelly Klein and BJ Whitmer) management is incompetent and Sinclair are doing nothing about it. They will be in a worse state than Impact by the end of the year if they aren't already.

 

I'd say they are already in a worse state then Impact. Impact's book has really tightened up in recent years and the incompetents in their management were gotten rid of, plus they've build a really good roster. Not as good as AEW or New Japan obviously but still, it's a solid crew.

 

ROH meanwhile is run by incompetents and the guys with the purse strings don't care and talent is constantly being mismanaged. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them actually show up on Impact (or AEW, or MLW or even NWA Powerr) sometime in the future.

[Mootinie]

It's a similar situation to TNA years back in that you cannot question the ability of the talent. Great people and great wrestlers getting a raw deal from the people in charge. They are dying too. Look at this attendance:

 

Even for a nothing show, it's amazing how so few people will part money to see their product. They're on the road to nowhere at the moment and partially, as cappyboy said earlier, it's because they price their shows like they are the best promotion in the world and yet that's not been the case for somewhere close to a decade now.

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Mootinie" data-cite="Mootinie" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> They're on the road to nowhere at the moment and partially, as cappyboy said earlier, it's because they price their shows like they are the best promotion in the world and yet that's not been the case for somewhere close to a decade now.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> And I wish this were a new problem. Or even a comparatively new program like the over-reliance on brand names from outside the promotion. But there's always kind of been this cliquey, elitist air over Ring of Honor. Back before Sinclair bought the company, I literally couldn't follow them. Just as folks were describing AEW as a t-shirt company the first half of this year, it felt back then like RoH was a DVD company. For a fan in a market where they didn't hold shows, you pretty much had to throw large sums of money into videos in order to follow the promotion closely. Granted that was pretty much every indy at the time but it meant more with RoH because they were the one everyone wanted to see.</p><p> </p><p> It wasn't until Sinclair come along and started putting RoH on local syndie stations that it became easy to follow them. And for a while that was good. But then around the time of the SCUM angle and Jay Brisco getting stripped of the World Title over social media controversy, a new problem sprung up. Let an emergency tournament be needed. Or a creative substitution become necessary. Any event that might radically alter the landscape and you might as well not visit wrestling corners of the Internet at all if you were a TV only fan. Whole tournament fields and such could be announced and dissected ad nauseum online before any need was ever demonstrated by the TV show. </p><p> </p><p> And then there's now. Where TV is essentially "let's show you clips of what your betters who have Honor Club got to see live a couple weeks ago." Where a show that used to be presented as a mini-card unto itself and feel current enough is mostly an infomercial for a service that may not be in every fan's budget. Even TV staples like the Top Prospect tournament are behind the velvet rope now. If that were merely an act of ego based on outdated laurels, that would be bad enough. But for a fan on a budget, that feels like them just being true to a darker corner of their history. </p><p> </p><p> And by no means do I suggest this is RoH's only problem. The over-reliance on outside stars has been an ever-present issue over the last five years. Questionable booking moves and short shrifting of guys has been going on far too long. The issues are many. But those other problems just make this one all the worse. If there's ever a moment to be big timing your own audience and being the status symbol of your field, it's not when your house is a shambles as RoH's is right now. Should the worst happen, RoH wouldn't be the first company that mistake killed off. In any field. Nor would they likely be the last. But it would be all on them for being so narrowly focused.</p>

[MightyDavidson]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>And I wish this were a new problem. Or even a comparatively new program like the over-reliance on brand names from outside the promotion. But there's always kind of been this cliquey, elitist air over Ring of Honor. Back before Sinclair bought the company, I literally couldn't follow them. Just as folks were describing AEW as a t-shirt company the first half of this year, it felt back then like RoH was a DVD company. For a fan in a market where they didn't hold shows, you pretty much had to throw large sums of money into videos in order to follow the promotion closely. Granted that was pretty much every indy at the time but it meant more with RoH because they were the one everyone wanted to see.<p> </p><p> It wasn't until Sinclair come along and started putting RoH on local syndie stations that it became easy to follow them. And for a while that was good. But then around the time of the SCUM angle and Jay Brisco getting stripped of the World Title over social media controversy, a new problem sprung up. Let an emergency tournament be needed. Or a creative substitution become necessary. Any event that might radically alter the landscape and you might as well not visit wrestling corners of the Internet at all if you were a TV only fan. Whole tournament fields and such could be announced and dissected ad nauseum online before any need was ever demonstrated by the TV show. </p><p> </p><p> And then there's now. Where TV is essentially "let's show you clips of what your betters who have Honor Club got to see live a couple weeks ago." Where a show that used to be presented as a mini-card unto itself and feel current enough is mostly an infomercial for a service that may not be in every fan's budget. Even TV staples like the Top Prospect tournament are behind the velvet rope now. If that were merely an act of ego based on outdated laurels, that would be bad enough. But for a fan on a budget, that feels like them just being true to a darker corner of their history. </p><p> </p><p> And by no means do I suggest this is RoH's only problem. The over-reliance on outside stars has been an ever-present issue over the last five years. Questionable booking moves and short shrifting of guys has been going on far too long. The issues are many. But those other problems just make this one all the worse. If there's ever a moment to be big timing your own audience and being the status symbol of your field, it's not when your house is a shambles as RoH's is right now. Should the worst happen, RoH wouldn't be the first company that mistake killed off. In any field. Nor would they likely be the last. But it would be all on them for being so narrowly focused.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> He wasn't stripped of the title over a social media controversy. When he was stripped of the title it was because he'd tried to leave the company as champion (or at least that's what I'd heard) and they did an injury angle to cover for it. The social media controversy came later and rather then costing him a title ROH actually gave him a second title run a little while after that. I remember because that was the first time I stopped watching ROH.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MightyDavidson" data-cite="MightyDavidson" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>He wasn't stripped of the title over a social media controversy. When he was stripped of the title it was because he'd tried to leave the company as champion (or at least that's what I'd heard) and they did an injury angle to cover for it. The social media controversy came later and rather then costing him a title ROH actually gave him a second title run a little while after that. I remember because that was the first time I stopped watching ROH.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Okay. So a fuzzy memory caused me to merge two events into one. We're both discussing the same time frame. And it doesn't change the greater point that during said period the people who could go to shows and pay for content had one timeline and people who had to rely on TV had another. Or that the two timelines were so off-kilter it made the TV-dependent audience look foolish by comparison.</p>

[TheGhost]

<p>Sinclair Broadcasting announced that they have purchased the Fox Sports channels. And guess what? Ring of Honor gets shown on Friday Night at Midnight.</p><p> </p><p>

This right here is a major problem. If Sinclair has any hopes of Ring of Honor reaching new people and actually growing, they need to get them in a better time slot.</p>

[cappyboy]

Sinclair Broadcasting announced that they have purchased the Fox Sports channels. And guess what? Ring of Honor gets shown on Friday Night at Midnight.

 

This right here is a major problem. If Sinclair has any hopes of Ring of Honor reaching new people and actually growing, they need to get them in a better time slot.

 

I don't know if I'd be too concerned about that just yet. May have just been the only open slot they could slide into at the moment. If a year or two from now, that's still where RoH is slotted, that might be more of a problem. I would imagine there's a transition period and shows whose contracts need to run out that need to transpire first before they can start shuffling in earnest.

[Jaysin]

PCO of all people is ROH champion

[Wrestling Century]

I haven't watched ROH in months at this point, but from just reading results and the occasional fan comments, apparently Rush, PCO, and still Scurll are the few that make any impact. So, this is probably the last year (or 2 max imo) that PCO can keep his insanity up, so I kind of get him becoming Champ. But how have they not made Gresham into a star now? From day one I thought he was the next Danielson/Bret Hart, and until tonight, he hasn't won a title.

[Jaysin]

Gresham is freaking great.

[cappyboy]

I haven't watched ROH in months at this point, but from just reading results and the occasional fan comments, apparently Rush, PCO, and still Scurll are the few that make any impact. So, this is probably the last year (or 2 max imo) that PCO can keep his insanity up, so I kind of get him becoming Champ. But how have they not made Gresham into a star now? From day one I thought he was the next Danielson/Bret Hart, and until tonight, he hasn't won a title.

 

I'll get into PCO as champ later. Although I will say it felt too soon for Rush to be champ given the outside star problem I've referenced on several occasions.

 

Right now, Brother WC, I'm more interested in your Gresham question. Because you're right. He is a prime example of a guy who could have made a much bigger name over the past five years if RoH hadn't wasted that time leo hunting. It does look like they are trying to rectify that mistake now via the relationship with Lethal and the turn. They've always hyped his skills and Gresham's shown more personality than one might have expected when given the chance to show one.

 

Heck, if you could put a WORLD TITLE on a guy as bland as Kyle O'Reilly, I don't see why Gresham couldn't have had a TV title reign or two. Or speaking of the TV title, how about Matt Taven as the example? Guy wasn't half the speaker he is now when he was TV title holder coming out of Top Prospect. Of course then you had Truth Martini to fill the gap. But regardless the champ held gold despite the stick not being his forte. That's never been the impediment in RoH that it could be in other promotions. This is a company that when Sinclair first took over was sending its champions on personal appearances with regional sponsors despite one of those champs being BJ Whitmer. BJ!! WHITMER!! BJ's a very talented wrestler but I wouldn't leave my house to hear him speak if he were giving the Gettysburg Address at my mailbox. That's how little personality and charisma have mattered over the years in RoH. Just a shame that over the last few, we the fans have understood this better than management does.

[cappyboy]

<p>With the results of Final Battle now TV official, some random thoughts. And keep in mind as always, I'm speaking for an audience of one. If I'm out on any islands, so be it. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

1: Jeff Cobb and Dan Maff as a tag team. More please. In fact, can we please start that more with a match against The Bouncers? While I'm pretty confident I can guess how that would turn out, it feels like the path there could be a lot of fun.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

2: Vincent and Bateman. BATEMAN!! OH JOY!! </p><p> </p><p>

::rolls eyes::</p><p> </p><p>

So you're telling me Ring of Honor is going to inflict more of this buffoon on us? I'm sorry. It's impossible. I cannot take a guy with as mundane a name as Bateman seriously as a single name boogeyman based on second hand wholecloth. Yes I know about Patrick. Yes I know about American Psycho. Don't care. That dude used both halves of his name. Not just one.. As lame as Marseglia using just the formal version of his first name is, at least with him I've seen his bona fides as a dangerous man develop over time. Bateman feels about as plastic a banana as I've ever seen.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

3: If Vincent and Bateman are the new crazies of RoH, does that mean the Briscoes will be allowed to get their mental stability back? Sure they have the beef with Lethal and Gresham at the moment. But it feels like a Jay world title reign to reestablish what company's belt the RoH world title is wouldn't be amiss. And Mark finally fulfilling his TV title dream against Dragon Lee could be fun as well. Not saying any of that needs to be rushed. But seems like there's a lot of potential for Dem Boys in 2020</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

4: Love the new partnership Rush & Dragon Lee have with Kenny King. Having the last world champ, the TV champ and a guy so deeply RoH he arguably should be world champ make a compelling mix of talent. And King's involvement should give his new peeps a real rub as far as dulling the "shiny object" perspective goes.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

5: Can we please keep solo Shaheem Ali? It's always felt like he was the stronger personality of the team and that LSG was destined to end up Jannettied. With so much turnover in the tag division, now feels like it could be a good time for him to go a different direction and stand as his own man.</p>

[fullMETAL]

To be fair, Bateman usually gets announced by his full name of Tyler Bateman, but my completely-out-of-nowhere guess is that, like his contemporaries Watts in CWFHollywood and Watson in CWFArizona, his name is truncated in a "he stands out more as a single name" manner? Literally just a guess though.

 

As for comparisons to Marseglia, Bateman's gimmick has always been a more controlled-chaos "do bad things to win" type while I feel Marseglia's is more of a less-controlled "do bad things for fun" type.

But in the broad-strokes world of pro wrestling, the distinction between those two MO's doesn't often come across unless a person makes their own effort to pay closer attention.

Inevitably, they're both using each other, Bateman using Vinnie for utilitarian purposes, and Vinnie using Bateman because I'm guessing he doesn't in-character see the distinction between their goals/philosophies/methodologies, and their eventual breakup will likely be for this reason.

("I thought we believed in the same thing!" "Nah brah, you do it for fun, I do it for wins and titles, but also for fun.")

 

I'm basing this entirely on my previous viewings of Bateman in CWFHollywood, where that was exactly his operating philosophy.

 

I'll even quote this when (not if) that happens, and grudgingly take the L if it's not how it goes down.

[cappyboy]

To be fair, Bateman usually gets announced by his full name of Tyler Bateman, but my completely-out-of-nowhere guess is that, like his contemporaries Watts in CWFHollywood and Watson in CWFArizona, his name is truncated in a "he stands out more as a single name" manner? Literally just a guess though.

 

So it sounds like Bateman may be the latest example of the classic RoH elitism. Assuming their audience already knows what they are supposed to and not realizing there are people who may be seeing the guy for the first time. Wish I could be surprised if your guess is accurate. I may love the product as a general rule but RoH management sure can be a presumptuous bunch at times.

[fullMETAL]

That's probably the correct assessment.

They need to show us more "wrestler's background" packages for us to familiarize ourselves, but that would probably involve having to get the rights to the footage from a ton of different feds.

 

 

Like, in July '18, Matt Taven defended the CMLL Welter belt against Ultimo Guerrero (who totally looks like comedian Joey Medina, btw), and we were supposed to already know who Ultimo Guerrero was (I mean, I DO know who he is, and the Hammerstein crowd probably had an alright idea in general, but you get what I mean).

Commentary for the home viewers gave us enough info to get "oh, Ultimo's a legend in Mexico" but also wound up giving us "that's cool and all, but why hasn't he wrestled in the US way more often for us to immediately recognize him?" vibes.

[cappyboy]

 

Like, in July '18, Matt Taven defended the CMLL Welter belt against Ultimo Guerrero (who totally looks like comedian Joey Medina, btw), and we were supposed to already know who Ultimo Guerrero was (I mean, I DO know who he is, and the Hammerstein crowd probably had an alright idea in general, but you get what I mean).

Commentary for the home viewers gave us enough info to get "oh, Ultimo's a legend in Mexico" but also wound up giving us "that's cool and all, but why hasn't he wrestled in the US way more often for us to immediately recognize him?" vibes.

 

Oh I totally get what you mean. I grew up in small town Maine and have always bristled against the "supposed to know" thing. We were always amongst the last to get word of those things and they were all predecided by the time they got to my area. This is to use wrestling examples why my reaction to Kenny Omega in RoH was so terrible compared to how I view him now in AEW. Why I railed against Bullet Club in general and felt like most of their stories weren't really any of my business. And why I was perhaps overly blunt in my description of Bateman. I don't take well to being told what I'm meant to think before I have the chance to figure out what I actually do.

 

Which I have to say has made being an RoH fan tricky at times. They've assumed their audience to be the smartest of the smart from Day 1. But the action's so reliably good that I can find enough to enjoy even when it does feel certain guys are being shoved down my throat.

[BHK1978]

Assuming their audience already knows what they are supposed to and not realizing there are people who may be seeing the guy for the first time.

 

Little off topic but,

 

I do not know if you watch MLW as well but they do this exact same thing and it can be very annoying. They have this one wrestler named Timothy Thatcher who they hype and hype as if he is the greatest wrestler off all-time. Well I have never heard of the guy and he tends to lose more than he wins in MLW (Or at least it seems that way to me.). Yet they still are saying how great he was in other promotions and I just personally do not see it.

[franticloser]

I recommend tracking down Thatcher's stuff, I am a bit biased as he was my trainer when I was training to be a wrestler. But the dude can flat out go in pretty much any style.

[milamber]

Little off topic but,

 

I do not know if you watch MLW as well but they do this exact same thing and it can be very annoying. They have this one wrestler named Timothy Thatcher who they hype and hype as if he is the greatest wrestler off all-time. Well I have never heard of the guy and he tends to lose more than he wins in MLW (Or at least it seems that way to me.). Yet they still are saying how great he was in other promotions and I just personally do not see it.

 

He spent a lot of time in EVOLVE and WXW (Germany). He was part of Ringkampf with WALTER as well as Wolfe and Barthel before they joined WWE.

[cappyboy]

Little off topic but,

 

I do not know if you watch MLW as well but they do this exact same thing and it can be very annoying. They have this one wrestler named Timothy Thatcher who they hype and hype as if he is the greatest wrestler off all-time. Well I have never heard of the guy and he tends to lose more than he wins in MLW (Or at least it seems that way to me.). Yet they still are saying how great he was in other promotions and I just personally do not see it.

 

Oh absolutely. Love MLW. Quite possibly my favorite promotion at the moment and I have noticed that these assumptions creep in from time to time there as well. But they tend to do a better job educating their viewers who guys are than RoH. And MLW doesn't project this know it all culture quite the way RoH does. Albeit in the case of a guy like Thatcher, these efforts to tend to be focused on international talent they've gotten by working agreement. I might be in the same boat you are with him were he not a guy my more clued in friends had been gushing about for years.

[Questlove]

Marty Scurll has not only signed a new deal with ROH, but he's their head booker. Hell of a deal for him.

[MightyDavidson]

Marty Scurll has not only signed a new deal with ROH, but he's their head booker. Hell of a deal for him.

 

Now that is interesting. Might start tuning in again to see how well they do with him as the booker.

[Hashasheen]

Marty Scurll has not only signed a new deal with ROH, but he's their head booker. Hell of a deal for him.

 

TEW has become reality.

[milamber]

Probably for the best in the short term depending on whether he can help ROH improve before his stock falls like ROH's has lately. He'd get lost in the shuffle a bit in AEW right now and he can always join later.

[Warhawk8492]

I am excited to see what Marty does for ROH as a booker.