The Official ROH Discussion Thread

[BHK1978]

So NWA and ROH have disbanded their working relationship, seems like a poor move on both ends.

 

Listen let's be honest here they need each other especially with AEW on the rise, I think it's a bad move, NWA and ROH should have worked something out, granted yes ROH is in a bit of a dark ages right now, but NWA is nothing to write home about either.

 

I am happy to see that ROH and CMLL will be working together more often now, as they have started to promote the Global Wars tours featuring CMLL vs. ROH.

 

While I am still a very big ROH fan and do see this as a dark period for them, they really need to make some changes. They book the same venues far too often, and far to close together. They wonder why they can't sell out certain venues, but it's the fact they were just there 2 or 3 months ago.

 

Sinclair helps and hurts ROH, ROH need to branch out to new markets but because sinclair isn't in some of those markets they don't go there, which makes zero sense, since you can get the ROH tv show pretty much anywhere.

 

As far as the Briscoes go, I too have found the war with GOD has become stale, and as much as I love the Briscoes it's time for them to start giving back and helping put these younger teams over.

 

I fear that if ROH does not make drastic changes to fix the blatant issues they have, that we could be looking at the long winding demise of a once great company.

 

I just want to say that I agree with everything you wrote here. Though I do not mind the GOD/Briscoes feud. I mean...

 

Do I think Jay and Mark need to have the tag team titles for the 500th time?

 

No.

 

But I am not sure there are many credible teams to hold the titles. GOD is one of them (Plus GOD has an awesome look to them). As you said though, they should be using the Briscoes' to build up younger talent.

 

I think AEW really hurt them the most. Now I am on the record as saying I despise the Bucks and Omega. I do not get why fans love the three of them so much. That being said there is no denying that they have a rabid following and ROH losing them, Cody, Christopher Daniels, and Kaz (To a lesser extent Adam Page, who I never felt was all that over in ROH.) was a major blow to the company.

 

Also, the heavy reliance on New Japan guys has ended up hurting them as well. Mainly because (I believe Cappy made this point prior), it came at the expense of building up new younger workers.

[MightyDavidson]

I just want to say that I agree with everything you wrote here. Though I do not mind the GOD/Briscoes feud. I mean...

 

Do I think Jay and Mark need to have the tag team titles for the 500th time?

 

No.

 

But I am not sure there are many credible teams to hold the titles. GOD is one of them (Plus GOD has an awesome look to them). As you said though, they should be using the Briscoes' to build up younger talent.

 

I think AEW really hurt them the most. Now I am on the record as saying I despise the Bucks and Omega. I do not get why fans love the three of them so much. That being said there is no denying that the have a rabid following and ROH losing them, Cody, Christopher Daniels, and Kaz (To a lesser extent Adam Page, who I never felt was all that over in ROH.) was a major blow to the company.

 

Also, the heavy reliance on New Japan guys has ended up hurting them as well. Mainly because (I believe Cappy made this point prior), it came at the expense of building up new younger workers.

 

But that's on the booker isn't it? I mean ROH brought in Japanese guys before and managed to build up the talent under Delirious' predecessor right?

[BHK1978]

But that's on the booker isn't it? I mean ROH brought in Japanese guys before and managed to build up the talent under Delirious' predecessor right?

 

You are right, but I do think before they were not as heavily reliant on Japanese talent. In the last few years it seemed to me that the Japanese guys were in more matches. Maybe I just think that and it is not the case.

[Mootinie]

They sold out shows and did record attendances off the back of imported New Japan talent but you'd have a hard time convincing anybody they did much good for the promotion at large long-term. Nobody really got a rub. Lots of multi-man matches with fall guys or NJPW's premier talent winning singles matches against the talent RoH were trying to elevate at the time. Okada beat Dalton Castle in 2016. Two years later Dalton Castle was RoH Champion. It's not a good look really.

[franticloser]

<p>I think that the way ROH used Japanese talent back in the Spalosky era was best. Bring in a legend like Kobashi, put him in some tags and build up to one big match. He is probably going to win, but the loser doesn't look bad in the match. </p><p> </p><p>

If you are bringing in young lions, or someone not in the main event in NJPW, then they need to be used in the lower card where they can trade wins or losses. Or made to look good in defeat against your top guys.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> </p><p> But I am not sure there are many credible teams to hold the titles. GOD is one of them (Plus GOD has an awesome look to them). As you said though, they should be using the Briscoes' to build up younger talent.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah. The Guerrillas of Destiny being anywhere near the RoH tag belts is a sore spot for me. Nothing against the guys themselves but it just strikes me as another case of RoH leo hunting at the expense of their own people. Having a world class team at the top is all well and good. But your Best Friends, Motor City Machine Guns and Young Bucks are ultimately luxury items. You gotta build your own teams for when those guys aren't available.</p><p> </p><p> Could I see teams like Coast To Coast, The Bouncers or TK & Vinnie being RoH tag team champions? Sure. And while I've been wanting to see them with gold for a long time, the problem for RoH is that it's not gold that belongs to them. The titles I've been wanting to see those guys win belongs to OVW. I have no interest in seeing Coast to Coast face The Briscoes. I'd rather have seen them against The Bad Boys Club. Bouncers/Briscoes? No thanks. I wish I could have seen them against The Bro Godz or Entourage 2.0. TK & Vinnie vs the GOD? Forget it. Put them up against King's Ransom. That would be more fun.</p><p> </p><p> Oh and Coast to Coast, I wish they'd split that team up and send Shaheem solo or maybe partner him with Shane Taylor. I get "Leon St. Giovanni" is hardly the best wrestling name in the world. But calling the guy by his initials has always set my teeth on edge. His initials are one letter away from a drug reference. And I came of age in a circle where that would have been enough for my friends' parents to not want their kids knowing the man even existed. If anybody in wrestling desparately needs a repackage, it's LSG. As long as he's "LSG", I want Coast To Coast nowhere near the RoH tag titles. I don't want champs where one guy's ring name is that irritating.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Also, the heavy reliance on New Japan guys has ended up hurting them as well. Mainly because (I believe Cappy made this point prior), it came at the expense of building up new younger workers.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I've made it a lot. And not just because I saw the problems it would create for the company. But the issue has also been a very selfish one for me. One of my favorite parts of watching the indies is seeing guys when. I like being able to tell ECW fans I saw their core superstars as rookies in ICW Savoldi. Seeing an Adam Cole grow from undercard tag guy to world champ. Matt Taven go from newbie beefing with Mike Mondo to Top Prospect winner to leader of The Kingdom. Adam Page go from random jobber to Decade whipping boy to growing into the Hangman. For RoH to be so neglectful of the zero to hero arc over the last few years frustrates one of my fondest fan wishes. The chance to have been there with a guy from Day 1.</p>

[BHK1978]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I've made it a lot. And not just because I saw the problems it would create for the company. But the issue has also been a very selfish one for me. One of my favorite parts of watching the indies is seeing guys when. I like being able to tell ECW fans I saw their core superstars as rookies in ICW Savoldi. Seeing an Adam Cole grow from undercard tag guy to world champ. Matt Taven go from newbie beefing with Mike Mondo to Top Prospect winner to leader of The Kingdom. Adam Page go from random jobber to Decade whipping boy to growing into the Hangman. For RoH to be so neglectful of the zero to hero arc over the last few years frustrates one of my fondest fan wishes. The chance to have been there with a guy from Day 1.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I am the same way. I never saw the ICW stuff but I would read about it in magazines and newsletters. But I saw a lot of guys at the start of their careers.</p><p> </p><p> I remember going up to a Killer Kowalski show in New Hampshire and the main event was Perry Saturn taking on HHH (That show ended up getting shutdown by the cops due to a noise complaint). When I was in high school I used to go to Fall River, Massachusetts (Lizzie Borden's hometown) ever Friday night because there was an independent company that used to run up there.</p><p> </p><p> Their regular roster included Scotty 2 Hotty, Justin Credible (Who when he had hair looked very similar to Jerry Seinfeld, which was the hottest show on TV at the time, so fans used to chant Seinfeld at him), and Brutal Bob Evans (I have to say that guy is a grinder he has been an independent wrestler for damn near thirty years. I was happy when he had his run in ROH because of all of the work he had done to get to that point). </p><p> </p><p> There were a few others but I am just blanking on them right now. But it was always cool to see wrestlers you watched wrestle in front of fifty people all of a sudden show up in WCW, WWF, or ECW and have some sort of impact on the promotion.</p>

[cappyboy]

 

If you are bringing in young lions, or someone not in the main event in NJPW, then they need to be used in the lower card where they can trade wins or losses. Or made to look good in defeat against your top guys.

 

Like they did with The Tempura Boys. Where a lot of the New Japan workers have felt like shiny objects to distract us, those guys always felt like they were where they belonged? Were they still taking the spot of an undercard team that could still exist and be in the tag title race by now? Sure. But they squashed well as jobbers should and RoH management still managed to find fun little moments to use them in. I'm especially glad I got to see the six man match that put Dalton Castle & The Boys against Colt Cabana and The Tempura Boys. The symmetry of Boys on each side was quite fitting in a feud between a couple guys who aren't afraid to use silliness as a form of psychological warfare. And then for Cho and Yo to do so well, they returned to New Japan and got elevated into a stable. That felt well earned when I finally learned it. I love seeing jobbers grow and make good.

[BHK1978]

I really enjoyed the main event for Summer Supercard. I will admit that there were parts of that match where I cringed. Mainly because nobody should take the kind of bumps and chair shots that they took. Nevertheless it was a highly enjoyable card.

 

It sucks to see that the arena was nearly empty. Also, I loved when Alex Shelley stole the sleeping fan's shoe and threw it at Matt Taven. Oddly enough I told my buddy that I thought there was something medically wrong with that fan due to the way he was sleeping and on commentary one of the commentators said the same thing (I cannot recall who said it).

 

Rush looks like a future champion and he is entertaining to watch in the ring. I would not mind seeing him beat Taven for the belt.

Edited to add: I really enjoy how Shane Taylor interacts with the crowd (Kenny King is also very good at this when he is a heel). You really do not see heels jawing at the fans anymore (Or maybe I just do not see it because I really do not watch wrestling as much as I used to.). I understand the vast majority of the fans know it is fake (I say vast majority because I know there are still some fans that believe it is real.) and so you can never truly get the fans pissed off like the old days. But I love when heels try and do it, to me it enhances the matches.

[MightyDavidson]

I desperately hope Rush beats Taven for the title. The nearly empty arena is proof that the Taven experiment isn't working so a change needs to be made. Sure I've been ranking on ROH for awhile here but I do want to see the company do well, Rush at least seems to be well liked by the crowd from what I hear.

[fullMETAL]

<p>I'm genuinely curious to know: what would have you connect lower attendances specifically with Matt Taven being ROH Champion?</p><p>

Weren't crowds already getting smaller BEFORE he won the belt?</p>

[MightyDavidson]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="fullMETAL" data-cite="fullMETAL" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm genuinely curious to know: what would have you connect lower attendances specifically with Matt Taven being ROH Champion?<p> Weren't crowds already getting smaller BEFORE he won the belt?</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Nobody was mentioning ROH shows playing to nearly empty arenas prior to Taven winning the belt, to my knowledge. The company seemed to be doing fairly decent business with Lethal as champion now that might have had something to do with the Elite being present on some shows but Taven's championship run seems to have caused a sharp downturn in ROH's fortunes.</p>

[BHK1978]

Nobody was mentioning ROH shows playing to nearly empty arenas prior to Taven winning the belt, to my knowledge. The company seemed to be doing fairly decent business with Lethal as champion now that might have had something to do with the Elite being present on some shows but Taven's championship run seems to have caused a sharp downturn in ROH's fortunes.

 

That would be something interesting to find out. Like how there was talk about Kevin Nash being one of the lowest drawing WWF Champions. I wonder if Taven is a factor in the decline of attendance.

 

I do not find him to be a very credible champion but as I have said in the past my opinion often does not mesh well with modern wrestling fans.

[cappyboy]

I desperately hope Rush beats Taven for the title. The nearly empty arena is proof that the Taven experiment isn't working so a change needs to be made. Sure I've been ranking on ROH for awhile here but I do want to see the company do well, Rush at least seems to be well liked by the crowd from what I hear.

 

Gotta disagree with you here. At least where the dumping on Matt Taven is. He represents what they need to do more of. Not less. I think and I will emphasize that verb THINK I get why he gets the doubt he does. The guy is rather a jack of all trades, master of none type in a realm where people like their champions to be master of something. But to the degree that Matt Taven perhaps is not the best champion, it really feels like "Who the heck else is there?"

 

If Ring of Honor had a strong core at the top right now, it would be a lot easier to agree that yeah, Taven's just done badly at being world champ. But they've spent several years chasing shiny objects like Rush, like the Bullet Club and on back to names like Alberto El Patron, Samoa Joe and AJ Styles in 2015. Were Rush to win the RoH world title, that would be just another statement that RoH regulars just aren't worthy of holding their own company's gold. That perception can't be good for the company's health.

 

Honestly, if I were booking RoH in TEW right now, I think I'd put the belt on (yick) Kenny King. Other than Taven as champ, King is the most Ring of Honor guy that's really in a position to be world champ. The Briscoes and Dalton Castle are in story states that suggest they are mentally unsuitable for world title gold at the moment however good their skills are. Jay Lethal sure isn't pushing hard enough to get the belt back to think he might. He's essentially in a creative no man's land at the moment. Marty Scurll's relationship with the company has too recently been up in the air and all the shiny objects would just continue the disrespect of the main roster.

 

The worst part in these statements is that as a performer I like Rush. I loved his work in MLW and he's continued to be strong in RoH. So looking at him as a shiny object is rather frustrating. Yet I can't help it because of all that's happened in RoH the last four and half or so years. Conversely Kenny King rubs me the wrong way as a fan and has for a long time now. I may find him more credible now than I used to but I still find him incredibly annoying and off-putting. Yet I can't deny he has the resume and company history to not only be a suitable world champion but more distinctly an RoH champion than pretty much anybody else in logical contention. So I root for him in a corporate sense even though I despise watching him on a personal one. Ultimately, that would seem to be RoH's bigger problem than whether this guy or that guy is just bad at being champion. When you leave the fans in a position they can't even be fully sure what they want, how can you book in a way that is coherent and satisfying to them?

[Jaysin]

Taven isn’t a jack of all trades, he’s not good at anything. I probably won’t watch ROH again until someone else is champion.

 

In my opinion, this is like if Paul Roma or Tom Zenk was made world champion.

[MightyDavidson]

Taven isn’t a jack of all trades, he’s not good at anything. I probably won’t watch ROH again until someone else is champion.

 

In my opinion, this is like if Paul Roma or Tom Zenk was made world champion.

 

Agreed, there are heaps of people who'd be better champions then Matt Taven and the top of the heap is Marty Scurll. He's the most popular guy on the roster and super talented and I imagine if ROH had given him the title at the MSG show there'd be no issues with crowds. Instead we'd be sitting here talking about the awesome title matches Scurll had with Lethal, Cobb, Haskins and Young.

[Mootinie]

Matt Taven's contract is up next month. Marty Scurll's contract is up in November. LOL.

[Kijar]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Gotta disagree with you here. At least where the dumping on Matt Taven is. He represents what they need to do more of. Not less. I think and I will emphasize that verb THINK I get why he gets the doubt he does. The guy is rather a jack of all trades, master of none type in a realm where people like their champions to be master of something. But to the degree that Matt Taven perhaps is not the best champion, it really feels like "Who the heck else is there?"<p> </p><p> If Ring of Honor had a strong core at the top right now, it would be a lot easier to agree that yeah, Taven's just done badly at being world champ. But they've spent several years chasing shiny objects like Rush, like the Bullet Club and on back to names like Alberto El Patron, Samoa Joe and AJ Styles in 2015. Were Rush to win the RoH world title, that would be just another statement that RoH regulars just aren't worthy of holding their own company's gold. That perception can't be good for the company's health.</p><p> </p><p> Honestly, if I were booking RoH in TEW right now, I think I'd put the belt on (yick) Kenny King. Other than Taven as champ, King is the most Ring of Honor guy that's really in a position to be world champ. The Briscoes and Dalton Castle are in story states that suggest they are mentally unsuitable for world title gold at the moment however good their skills are. Jay Lethal sure isn't pushing hard enough to get the belt back to think he might. He's essentially in a creative no man's land at the moment. Marty Scurll's relationship with the company has too recently been up in the air and all the shiny objects would just continue the disrespect of the main roster.</p><p> </p><p> The worst part in these statements is that as a performer I like Rush. I loved his work in MLW and he's continued to be strong in RoH. So looking at him as a shiny object is rather frustrating. Yet I can't help it because of all that's happened in RoH the last four and half or so years. Conversely Kenny King rubs me the wrong way as a fan and has for a long time now. I may find him more credible now than I used to but I still find him incredibly annoying and off-putting. Yet I can't deny he has the resume and company history to not only be a suitable world champion but more distinctly an RoH champion than pretty much anybody else in logical contention. So I root for him in a corporate sense even though I despise watching him on a personal one. Ultimately, that would seem to be RoH's bigger problem than whether this guy or that guy is just bad at being champion. When you leave the fans in a position they can't even be fully sure what they want, how can you book in a way that is coherent and satisfying to them?</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I really do agree here.</p><p> See Matt Taven in person, he is a captivating heel. First time I saw him, he had me rolling by just saying "Matt Taven, b*tches!" to the crowd (that was vocally against him). The guy oozes that schmoozer confidence, and a lot of people forget he had a good come-up as an underdog. Is there some sort of stigma around Taven that he hasn't worked for anything or..? Because the guy tries his hardest, honed his skills in Mexico, built a very easy stable to root against out of the ashes of a much better version of the same stable.. The guy isn't Baron Corbin, yet everyone talks like he is.. He is a homegrown ROH star that exudes confidence and brings that "go away" heat, sure.. but he also deserves real, genuine heat, because the man is entertaining. He really is. </p><p> </p><p> I know that's not the popular opinion, it's just what I see. It's easy to kick something when their down. I think when the roster is thin like this we get to see these workers really perform. No big stars in their way, nowhere to go but up.. They listen to the audience, such as with the Enzo/Cass situation, but I'm glad they haven't taken the belt off of him yet, 'cause he has worked hard to get there. Like him or not. And if they have him drop it to (for example) Cobb, who is definitely going to go to greener pastures, I'd see that as more of a mistake, despite the hype it would bring in comparison.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MightyDavidson" data-cite="MightyDavidson" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Instead we'd be sitting here talking about the awesome title matches Scurll had with Lethal, Cobb, Haskins and Young.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Not sure that's a title reign I'd want to see. At least not with the cycle of contenders you listed. Only see one name on that list that feels like he'd be an appropriate champion and that's Lethal. Who seems to be in booking limbo at the moment. Young's always struck me as more of a gatekeeper type. more the guy you gotta get by to get at the champion than champion himself. The notion Silas Young could be someone to put the ROH title on demonstrates how thin the pool is almost as much as Taven holding it does.</p><p> </p><p> Meanwhile, Cobb and Haskins still strike me as shiny objects. Put the RoH title on either of them right now and you're suggesting you can't find a world champion without importing him. Do hope both guys stick around long enough for that outsider sheen to wear off. But rather not see either with the RoH World title until it does.</p><p> </p><p> And Haskins brings up a whole other bugaboo for me. Lifeblood. Love the concept of the group. Like all the individual members of the group. Hate the construction of the group. For a group that's all about restoring honor to ROH and bringing the company back to its roots, there sure is a dearth of experience with those roots on Lifeblood's roster. Haskins, Williams and Bandido all came from the outside. Most of what they know about honor is RoH is second hand knowledge gleaned from a distance. They have the chance to fix that by adding a homegrown in Flip Gordon and what happens? Some genius decides Flip is better placed in the muddled mess that has been Villian Enterprises. GRRR!!! IF you're going to have a group like Lifeblood and give it the goals Lifeblood have expressed, you should have guys in it who have been through the wars in RoH. Guys like Flip Gordon who rose to prominence here. Like properly centered Briscoes. Maybe like a Rhett Titus who's become adrift in character but could be a "spiritual advisor" of the group. Who maybe doesn't win as much as the others but puts stuff in perspective for comparative Johnny come latelies to the RoH zeitgeist like Haskins, Williams and Bandido. Somebody's been a part of that proverbial lifeblood to help the newer guys develop that RoH spirit. Right now it kinda feels like Lifeblood's talking about stuff they don't fully understand and that's sad given what their platform is.</p>

[The Final Countdown]

<p>I haven't closely followed ROH in several years, but wasn't the original 'leader' of Lifeblood Juice Robinson? That made zero sense to me when I heard that. Juice is an NXT product who left, voluntarily became a 'young lion' and reshaped himself in the NJPW dojo and is now very much a New Japan guy. That's not exactly a guy I'd throw in a stable aiming to bring ROH back to its roots.</p><p> </p><p>

Also, I would find it hilarious if Taven left ROH while Scurll was under contract. That would make the finish of that ladder match even more of a screwup than it was when it first happened, IMO.</p>

[MightyDavidson]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Final Countdown" data-cite="The Final Countdown" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I haven't closely followed ROH in several years, but wasn't the original 'leader' of Lifeblood Juice Robinson? That made zero sense to me when I heard that. Juice is an NXT product who left, voluntarily became a 'young lion' and reshaped himself in the NJPW dojo and is now very much a New Japan guy. That's not exactly a guy I'd throw in a stable aiming to bring ROH back to its roots.<p> </p><p> Also, I would find it hilarious if Taven left ROH while Scurll was under contract. That would make the finish of that ladder match even more of a screwup than it was when it first happened, IMO.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It would serve them right, that's for sure.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Final Countdown" data-cite="The Final Countdown" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I haven't closely followed ROH in several years, but wasn't the original 'leader' of Lifeblood Juice Robinson? That made zero sense to me when I heard that. Juice is an NXT product who left, voluntarily became a 'young lion' and reshaped himself in the NJPW dojo and is now very much a New Japan guy. That's not exactly a guy I'd throw in a stable aiming to bring ROH back to its roots.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Indeed. Juice Robinson who BTW couldn't be bothered to stick around. Along with Tennille Dashwood who likewise couldn't be bothered and Finlay Jr who IIRC has had trouble staying healthy. Tennille's departure was especially annoying as she was the Women of Honor representative in the group and uber stables like this rarely take the women's division into consideration when forming. I was willing to overlook your point about Juice at first because I loved his shtick and wanted to see what they did with him. Which just makes your point being so apt all the more frustrating. The longer Lifeblood goes on the less I see the point. I kind of wish ego would eat the group and they'd go to war with each other. That way, I could just enjoy Haskins, Williams and Bandido on an individual basis and quit overthinking their seemingly misguided alliance.</p>

[MightyDavidson]

<p>Of course Juice Robinson left, why would he choose to stay in ROH and let his career be hindered by Delirious' crappy booking? In New Japan he's in the title scene for the NJPW US Title at least and has the possibility of achieving much more. In ROH he's being made to play second fiddle to Taven, in his shoes I'd leave too. As for Tenille Dashwood, well the Women of Honor are booked worse then the men, what was meant to be keeping her around, nothing feuds with the Allure?</p><p> </p><p>

Unless major changes are made in ROH, I imagine they're not the only ones who're going to be leaving. I'd be very surprised if Villain Enterprises and Jeff Cobb haven't moved on to escape the cruddy booking.</p>

[BHK1978]

<p>They have to stop having Rhett Titus do commentary on matches, even if it is only for one match. The guy just does not have a good speaking voice.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Final Countdown" data-cite="The Final Countdown" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I haven't closely followed ROH in several years, but wasn't the original 'leader' of Lifeblood Juice Robinson? That made zero sense to me when I heard that. Juice is an NXT product who left, voluntarily became a 'young lion' and reshaped himself in the NJPW dojo and is now very much a New Japan guy. That's not exactly a guy I'd throw in a stable aiming to bring ROH back to its roots.<p> </p><p> Also, I would find it hilarious if Taven left ROH while Scurll was under contract. That would make the finish of that ladder match even more of a screwup than it was when it first happened, IMO.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> But you're Mr. ROH on this board. Say it ain't so.<img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> Seriously though, you're ROH dairy was one of the best I have ever read and as I have said previously on here I can see why people are no longer watching ROH. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MightyDavidson" data-cite="MightyDavidson" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><strong>As for Tenille Dashwood, well the Women of Honor are booked worse then the men, what was meant to be keeping her around, nothing feuds with the Allure?</strong></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Exactly. Their Women's division is just trash. I am not sure if it is because all of the good talent has been snatched up by WWE and AEW or what. But the talent is simply not there much like it is not there on the men's side of the coin either.</p>

[The Final Countdown]

They have to stop having Rhett Titus do commentary on matches, even if it is only for one match. The guy just does not have a good speaking voice.

...Rhett Titus on color? Ugh. That sounds awful.

 

 

But you're Mr. ROH on this board. Say it ain't so.

 

Seriously though, you're ROH dairy was one of the best I have ever read and as I have said previously on here I can see why people are no longer watching ROH.

Thanks; nice that somebody actually remembers that thing with how many years it's been! I have fond memories of that. I also have fond memories of the old ROH, but modern ROH just isn't for me. They've done a miserable job of building new stars up.

 

I love New Japan; I'm currently as invested in that as I ever was in ROH, if not more. But ROH depending so heavily on NJPW guest stars to carry their business was a gigantic mistake. If I want to follow those guys, why wouldn't I do so via New Japan itself through its own subscription service with English commentary for every show, where they actually have goals, feuds and long-term character development? If ROH actually brought a few notable NJPW guys to a show close to me, I'd definitely pay to go see them--but it's not like I'd suddenly become an ROH fan again. If they want me to follow their product, watch the TV show, possibly get their subscription service, they need to give me something I can't get anywhere else. (And Matt Taven doesn't count, at least not for me.)

 

Exactly. Their Women's division is just trash. I am not sure if it is because all of the good talent has been snatched up by WWE and AEW or what. But the talent is simply not there much like it is not there on the men's side of the coin either.

And they had a big head start on AEW too. ROH started sprinkling women's matches into their product back when I still watched their TV show, and I'm pretty sure I stopped watching sometime before Cody won the World title (that's coincidental, and nothing to do with Cody himself.) They should've been able to put a strong division together and lock up plenty of talented women that WWE didn't pick up for one reason or another, but it seems like they've failed pretty miserably. Now with AEW on the scene, Impact seemingly rebuilding their own division and WWE pursuing people even more aggressivly if for no other reason than to keep AEW from getting them, it's probably too little, too late for ROH to field a good division.