Official NFL Discussion Thread

[Warhawk8492]

As a Redskins fan I will be disgusted if they are forced to change their name.

[BHK1978]

As a Redskins fan I will be disgusted if they are forced to change their name.

 

They are going to cave, they have no choice in the matter. They are messing with their ad revenue.

[Warhawk8492]

They are going to cave, they have no choice in the matter. They are messing with their ad revenue.

 

They should find new sponsors

[BHK1978]

They should find new sponsors

 

It is not going to be that simple. The woke revolution is happening in America and it does not look like it is going to stop. Any company that works with the Redskins is going to face backlash.

[Warhawk8492]

It is not going to be that simple. The woke revolution is happening in America and it does not look like it is going to stop. Any company that works with the Redskins is going to face backlash.

 

Maybe turn to Trump's company for sponsorship or even the NRA. I hate this "woke" crap.

[The Swanton825]

Just call them the Warriors, put a W where the native guy used to be and bring back those awesome dark red helmets with the spear on them they wore for all of a hot minute in the mid 2000s. Boom, problem solved. All the theming can stay the same, basically nothing is majorly changed and now Washington has an alliterative name.

[Warhawk8492]

Just call them the Warriors, put a W where the native guy used to be and bring back those awesome dark red helmets with the spear on them they wore for all of a hot minute in the mid 2000s. Boom, problem solved. All the theming can stay the same, basically nothing is majorly changed and now Washington has an alliterative name.

 

I am against any change. The name has been here since the 1930s and has so much history. Most Native Americans don't find it offensive according to a survey by the Washington Post.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html

[The Swanton825]

I am against any change. The name has been here since the 1930s and has so much history. Most Native Americans don't find it offensive according to a survey by the Washington Post.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html

 

I know my team doesn't have "history" in the same way but if I was told the Vikings were changing their name I don't think it'd be that big of a deal. Mostly I'd just be annoyed that all my Vikings stuff would be outdated.

 

Also I feel like any survey that can make a sweeping statement like that only asked a very small group. You can't get 9 out of 10 people to agree on pizza toppings, yet despite consistent protests from local tribes for decades 9 out of 10 Native Americans don't mind the name? Maybe if it was 50/50 I'd find it believable, but you can't have generations of people protesting the name for so long and yet next to nobody in their own community agrees with them. This reminds me of how the Crazy Horse monument in South Dakota is actually sacrilegous to the Lakota because they're carving it out of a holy site like the Black Hills and to top it off picked a pointing gesture for the sculpture that's offensive to the Lakota, but because they browbeat tribal leaders into accepting that this is what's happening the people in charge of the monument can claim "most Lakota approve of us!".

[cappyboy]

As a Redskins fan I will be disgusted if they are forced to change their name.

 

Here's the thing I don't get and I don't remember ever having seen covered in the history of this issue being treated as one. Why are they even the Redskins in the first place? Not that I disagree with you as such but where did the name even come from?

 

Over the years, I've heard all this about the history and the tradition behind the Redskins name. But not one word on its origin. Is their a Louis Sockalexis style story a la the Cleveland Indians? Should the name been potentially controversial for non-native reasons a la the Boston (now Atlanta) Braves? Was it just a newspaper name the team contest? If this were a team in Topeka or Omaha some middle of the country city, I'd get the association.

But with a governmental center like Washingion, it does seem like a strange choice. Regardless of how appropriate taking offense is or is not.

 

Anybody have the scoop on that end of things? It seems like this should be a bigger part of the conversation. If the name was originally bestowed by a raging racist, that would seem to bolster the argument for change. If it were a Cleveland/Sockalexis scenario, that would seem to bolster the argument for maintaining it. But nobody has ever seemed interested in saying why the Redskins are "Redskins" to start with. What's the deal?

[The Swanton825]

Here's the thing I don't get and I don't remember ever having seen covered in the history of this issue being treated as one. Why are they even the Redskins in the first place? Not that I disagree with you as such but where did the name even come from?

 

Over the years, I've heard all this about the history and the tradition behind the Redskins name. But not one word on its origin. Is their a Louis Sockalexis style story a la the Cleveland Indians? Should the name been potentially controversial for non-native reasons a la the Boston (now Atlanta) Braves? Was it just a newspaper name the team contest? If this were a team in Topeka or Omaha some middle of the country city, I'd get the association.

But with a governmental center like Washingion, it does seem like a strange choice. Regardless of how appropriate taking offense is or is not.

 

Anybody have the scoop on that end of things? It seems like this should be a bigger part of the conversation. If the name was originally bestowed by a raging racist, that would seem to bolster the argument for change. If it were a Cleveland/Sockalexis scenario, that would seem to bolster the argument for maintaining it. But nobody has ever seemed interested in saying why the Redskins are "Redskins" to start with. What's the deal?

It's a very dumb, yet hilarious, explanation. They were originally from Boston and known as the Boston Braves. Then they moved into Fenway and changed it to Redskins because the owner wanted a name that made people connect them with the Red Sox and because their coach at the time lied and claimed he was Native American when he was actually just a white dude who had his own supposed sister from the Ogala testify in court that he was not her brother.

 

EDIT: Totally forgot to mention the part where their coach told the players to dress up in war paint, feathers and full headdresses for their first home game as the Redskins. They went so overboard with the paint that the players wound up having trouble sweating because it blocked their pores.

[Warhawk8492]

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/chris-cooley-remembers-mostly-positive-reaction-redskins-name-native-americans

 

Another thing to consider, most don't seem to have a problem with the name.

[The Swanton825]

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/chris-cooley-remembers-mostly-positive-reaction-redskins-name-native-americans

 

Another thing to consider, most don't seem to have a problem with the name.

 

He also says at the end of the article that he's not going to defend the name and if people want it changed, then change it. So we've even got former players not giving a crap about changing the name.

[cappyboy]

It's a very dumb, yet hilarious, explanation. They were originally from Boston and known as the Boston Braves. Then they moved into Fenway and changed it to Redskins because the owner wanted a name that made people connect them with the Red Sox and because their coach at the time lied and claimed he was Native American when he was actually just a white dude who had his own supposed sister from the Ogala testify in court that he was not her brother.

 

EDIT: Totally forgot to mention the part where their coach told the players to dress up in war paint, feathers and full headdresses for their first home game as the Redskins. They went so overboard with the paint that the players wound up having trouble sweating because it blocked their pores.

 

Then 2 questions spring to mind.

 

1: Does this mean they were connected to the baseball team at one point and the organized crime ties there?

 

and 2: Why haven't the name change crowd run with this? This story would seem to make their case of the name being problematic seeing the extremes that were gone to in order to justify it in the first place.

[The Swanton825]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26529" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Then 2 questions spring to mind.<p> </p><p> 1: Does this mean they were connected to the baseball team at one point and the organized crime ties there?</p><p> </p><p> and 2: Why haven't the name change crowd run with this? This story would seem to make their case of the name being problematic seeing the extremes that were gone to in order to justify it in the first place.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> 1. I don't believe there was any connection between the two teams besides the stadium. They were struggling to draw crowds so I think the owner was trying to trick people into believing the teams were connected.</p><p> </p><p> 2. You've got me there. The info even comes from a book called The Redskins Encyclopedia! Written by a fan and historian of the team! My only guess is that nobody has thought to look in such an obvious place for that info.</p>

[Dalton]

<p>A small town near me made national news headlines in around 2015 because of their town seal, which showed a white man choking out a man with red skin. It was totally racist but then again, that town is openly prejudiced. It became such big news nationwide that late night shows were making fun of it. And yet, despite the backlash and obvious racism, the town voted to keep the seal like 70% to 30%. Name of that town? Whitestown. Unrelated name, but still a funny coincidence.</p><p> </p><p>

That's what I think of whenever I hear the debate about the Redskins name. I've thought about it ever since I was a kid: what about Blackskins? Whiteskins? At best, it's insensitive. At worst, racist. I think in reality, it falls somewhere between there. </p><p> </p><p>

About the only reason it hasn't been changed is because of "tradition" or some BS like that. We are allowed to admit there was a mistake made in the past, and make good.</p><p> </p><p>

It's not the end of the world to me if it doesn't get changed, mainly just because I'm used to it. I'm not personally offended by it, but that's because I'm not Native American. </p><p> </p><p>

TLDR not a fan of the name, wouldn't mind a change but overall rather indifferent.</p>

[BHK1978]

<p>My late uncle was Native American and I remember asking him years ago about this. His quote was, "Nobody cares about it, most are indifferent." I think that may hold true. Granted it is not a fact, it was just what he said about the people that he knew. </p><p> </p><p>

Part of me wonders if this is not a bunch of white activists calling for the change of the name over guilt. It does seem that is often the case, a small group of people complains about something but they are really loud about it and thus it amplifies and it makes it seem like more people support their cause than actually do.</p>

[Dalton]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26529" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My late uncle was Native American and I remember asking him years ago about this. His quote was, "Nobody cares about it, most are indifferent." I think that may hold true. Granted it is not a fact, it was just what he said about the people that he knew. <p> </p><p> Part of me wonders if this is not a bunch of white activists calling for the change of the name over guilt. It does seem that is often the case, a small group of people complains about something but they are really loud about it and thus it amplifies and it makes it seem like more people support their cause than actually do.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That very well may be true. Honestly, the name isn't the team's biggest problem anyway, that title goes to Dan Snyder <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[The Swanton825]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26529" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My late uncle was Native American and I remember asking him years ago about this. His quote was, "Nobody cares about it, most are indifferent." I think that may hold true. Granted it is not a fact, it was just what he said about the people that he knew. <p> </p><p> Part of me wonders if this is not a bunch of white activists calling for the change of the name over guilt. It does seem that is often the case, a small group of people complains about something but they are really loud about it and thus it amplifies and it makes it seem like more people support their cause than actually do.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I would consider the white guilt aspect if people hadn't been demanding the name be changed since the 80s. White guilt protests are way too short lived to keep going that long. Remember when protesters were trying to get stuff like sushi taken off of college canteen menus on the ground of cultural appropriation? That lasted all of a hot minute.</p><p> </p><p> The main reason I feel it's become such a prominent debate in recent years is because Dan Snyder is a scumbag who sues elderly season ticket holders, tries to sell plushies of a murdered player and created a foundation to support Native Americans that after only five years had no money being put into it. If someone who isn't an aspiring Saturday morning cartoon villain buys the team instead of Snyder 20 years ago, I'm almost certain that the team either changes the name in a clever rebrand or works more with Native groups like teams like the Utah Utes and Florida State Seminoles do so that Washington is seen as being respectful to their traditions.</p><p> </p><p> EDIT:</p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Dalton" data-cite="Dalton" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26529" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That very well may be true. Honestly, the name isn't the team's biggest problem anyway, that title goes to Dan Snyder <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></div></blockquote><p> You beat me to mocking Snyder. <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[BHK1978]

My question is, where is the outrage over the mascot for Notre Dame? Fighting Irish implies all people who are either from Ireland or of Irish ancestry are nothing more than drunks who like to fight. That outdated stereotype is highly offensive, where are the activist to boycott that? Where is the faux woke outrage?<img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

[The Swanton825]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26529" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My question is, where is the outrage over the mascot for Notre Dame? Fighting Irish implies all people who are either from Ireland or of Irish ancestry are nothing more than drunks who like to fight. That outdated stereotype is highly offensive, where are the activist to boycott that? Where is the faux woke outrage?<img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Not sure where the drunk part of it comes in when the mascot is a leprechaun in an old-timey fighting stance, but anyways I think the main difference comes down to the fact that unlike Native Americans who are still very much a minority with a laundry list of prejudice and mistreatments they continue to endure, people of Irish ancestry aren't the minority in America that their ancestors were and their kinsmen continue to be in the Isles. Similar to Italian-Americans like myself, Irish-Americans are considered to be "typical" Americans and we don't have to worry about the harassment that people like my maternal grandmother had to and to act like stereotyping Irish-Americans as drinkers or (to use a more personal example) Italians as mafioso is capable of being anywhere near as hurtful or dehumanizing as names like the Fighting Sioux or Redskins is to Natives who want it changed is disingenuous.</p>

[Jaysin]

Just because you aren't offended by something doesn't mean other people can't be.

[The Swanton825]

Just because you aren't offended by something doesn't mean other people can't be.

 

I didn't say people couldn't. My point is that it's on a completely different level of offensive when an Irish Catholic college calls itself the Fighting Irish and continues to do so well into a period in American history where Irish people actually have their voices heard and could easily demand it be changed than compared to a bunch of white dudes calling themselves the Redskins who have refused to change the name despite decades of outcry because they knew next to nobody in America gives a damn about Native Americans. It's why the Navajo are dying left and right from COVID, it's why the Standing Rock Reservation has to live with the perpetual fear of their drinking water getting poisoned by a busted oil pipeline and it's why after the dust is settled on all of this, nothing will have changed besides a name and a logo. The people who stood by the Native Americans who wanted it changed will head off to protest something new and the people who fought the name change so heartily will get used to the new name in a couple years and we'll all look back on debating the name as another dumb moment in football. Meanwhile, nothing will change for Native Americans because even asking for a token gesture like a NFL team's name to be changed ballooned into a decades-long struggle.

[Jaysin]

Wasn't talking to you.

[The Swanton825]

Wasn't talking to you.

 

Whoops. Embarrassing

[BHK1978]

I didn't say people couldn't. My point is that it's on a completely different level of offensive when an Irish Catholic college calls itself the Fighting Irish and continues to do so well into a period in American history where Irish people actually have their voices heard and could easily demand it be changed than compared to a bunch of white dudes calling themselves the Redskins who have refused to change the name despite decades of outcry because they knew next to nobody in America gives a damn about Native Americans.

 

The Notre Dame thing was meant as a joke, I know humor is often hard to convey on the internet.

 

That being said, I will ask you this. If the polls are correct and the vast majority of Native Americans do not want it changed, do you think the name should be changed for the minority of Native Americans who are against it? If the people who it is supposed to offend are not actually offended, why should there be a name change? Just because it offends people who are not even part of the group that should be offended by it.

 

That is the way I am approaching it by looking at it from the polls that were conducted and from what I have heard in the past from actual Native Americans. Now I am not going to sit here and pretend that the vast majority of the Native Americans are offended or are not offended, I honestly do not know. I would like to hear your thoughts on that if you choose to share them.

 

I do think you hit the nail on the head. The non-Native Americans who are trying to fight for this change will move on and find something else to be outraged about. That is what bothers me more than anything else, after all, I am a Giants fan I really do not care about the Redskins or their name. What really bothers me is that these phony activists who are trying to fight against injustice and yet do not truly care about the people who they claim they are fighting for.

 

As you said, the living conditions on most reservations are absolutely terrible and there is no way people should be living like that. They should have better access to medical care and drinking water (The same could be said about the drinking water in some cities as well. Flint I am looking at you.) A lot of these "allies" do not care about that, they are just looking to score another point for themselves and they are trying to make themselves feel better.

 

Just because you aren't offended by something doesn't mean other people can't be.

 

I seem to recall when you told me I had no right to think that suicide was wrong and that I was not allowed to speak on the topic. Just because you are not offended by something doesn't mean others can't be. Or is it rules for thee and not for me?

 

I am going to peace out on this topic because at the end of the day what good is it going to do us going back and forth on this for days on end? Nobody ever changes their opinion.

 

Plus Adam does not like political talk on here (Which this is becoming closer to being. I honestly do not blame him, this is a business website not a political forum.) and I do not want a mod to come in here and lecture us.