The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[ProphetX]

I enjoyed it actually. A lot. But then again I'm not the type of fan who educates himself on KOs being the be all end all. Now I -did- expect more out of Henderson. And I don't blame SF for the riot at the end nor do I think they sent him in to spoil Shield's moment. Being a fan of wrestling for so long I simply saw $$$ and ratings to come from that.

 

Not that I'd want all of my fighters pulling stupid **** like that. But it could definitely be used to benefit if they worked it right.

[BHK1978]

I do not think that every fight should be a stand and bang. I can respect a good mat fight. What bothers me is when someone like Shinya Aoki, sits on his butt for nearly the entire fight. And one point just dragged his seated body across the ring. That was horrible!

 

Look I understand that his strategy was to keep it on the ground. However, what he did tonight was just ridiculous.

[ProphetX]

Not disagreeing with that assessment. I actually feel bad now because it's like the Dream fighters come to SF to have their butts kicked. I came into this thinking "oh my god, Melendez makes a wrong move and it's lights out" and it was far from it. That was probably one of the most glaring points on the card I think. Not only was Aoki discredited to casual fans but seeing his idiotic butt cheek shuffle to goad Melendez down was sad. He was already winning. MMA isn't the Hot Gates of Thermopylae. If you can't beat them with your usual game plan then adapt or die.

 

My comments were just more to the fact that in America it seems like we're trained to go for the big pops like in pro wrestling. The power bombs, piledrivers, neckbreakers, etc. In MMA it's the huge head kicks, hammer strikes, huge knee strikes, or whatever.

 

I enjoyed the card and I wanted more. Could it have been better? Heck yeah it could have been. Aoki for the fail. Hendo could have done a lot more to be competitive in the fight too.

[Daffanka]

Mo - Mousasi derailed Mousasi's hype train quite a bit. Couldn't stop a gassed wrestler from doubling him, passing his guard and comfortably grind out a decision. Submitted Denis Kang =/= is good off his back.

 

Aoki - Melendez... man. Bring me someone to crush these men. Perhaps some sort of Crusher. After this particular Crusher is done crushing Aoki in Dream he will go to SF and crush Melendez. Then he will go to the UFC and redeem the redemption of Japanese fighters. Crusher!

 

Shields - Hendo was exciting the first two rounds but after that it was pretty clear what was going to happen.

 

The post fight brawl isn't going to hurt SF as much as having three decisions, two of which were very boring, and absolutely no contenders.

 

My picks sucked though.

[brashleyholland]

Strikeforce bombed in the ratings last night. Seriously bombed. 1.0 in the 18-35 demo, 2.63 million viewers overall. Wow.

 

To put that into perspective, it was beaten in the ratings by two episodes of COPS and America's Most Wanted. Also, their last CBS show did an average of 3.79 million. The Elite XC on CBS before that (with Kimbo) did an average of 4.56 million.

 

What this means: They're in serious trouble. CBS's affiliates were reportedly furious at the massive overrun knocking their 11pm news broadcasts back, especially considering the boring nature of the last three rounds of Shields-Hendo.

 

The end of show brawl may not have been a deal breaker on its own, but it won't help matters with the appalling ratings.

 

My guess is that they'll get one last shot on the network with Fedor and Hershal Walker on the card this summer. Advertising should sell well, but it will be up to Strikeforce to convince CBS of two things:

 

 

A) That Fedor can claw back the lost ratings.

 

B) They can tie Fedor down for another couple of years at least.

 

As of right now, Strikeforce without Fedor is a lost cause on CBS.

 

It's also interesting that they are hanging Mayhem out to dry in terms of claiming that him being in the cage had nothing to do with them. That's bullshido of the highest order and a clear sign that they don't want to put the heat on the Cesar Gracie camp until the Shields contract issue has a resolution.

[brashleyholland]

Strikeforce and CBS for one as it seems (from your other post) that he is getting another title shot when he should have never had one in the first place.

 

 

That isn't over rating him. That's the oldest match-making trick in the book. You put a champion against a 5-1 underdog who is a good talker and can sell the bout. Joe public buys into the challenger because he talks a good game and most of them don't know any better. Champ then puts him away, and (hopefully) looks better/more unbeatable in the eyes of Joe Public for doing so.

 

In my mind, over rating someone is believing that they are far better than they actually are. Strikeforce knows exactly how good Mayhem is; hence why they've planned to match him up with the Human Charisma Dispersal Unit that is Jake Shields not once, but twice.

[Daffanka]

The problem gets magnified in Strikeforce because they're pressured to put on, dare I say it, UFC-caliber fights but don't have nowhere near the talent depth to keep that sustainable.

[jesterx7769]

Take this for what you will but for me I take it as clear evidence that SF told Miller to go in the cage. If you watch the video or watched it live,

 

http://www.mmaweekly.com/blog/2010/04/post-fight-melee-ensues-at-end-of.asp

 

Miller is at the far right of the screen already in the cage, and they have the banner right behind Shields, you then see Miller walk behind the banner then pop up next to Shields. of course then things go down the drain. However he was clearly standing there and no one said anything, the Diaz's or Melendez had to clerly notice the dude not wearing their white camp shirts with a red streak in his hair and no one stops him from approaching Jake to say Hey what are you doing. If you watch the video it is Melendez that starts everything by pushing Miller, Shields didn't push him first (although he threw the first punch) So yeah, I think SF 100% told him to go in there, especially b/c the first words out of Coker's mouth were "I can tell you none of my staff told him to go in the cage" hmmm feel a little guilty? What they didnt expect was Miller to shove his face into Shields and have Melendez step in.

 

I also hate how people (media, fighters, and stupid Sherdog forummers) are asking "Well how did he get in the cage in the first place!?" So assuming SF didn't send him in...Umm idk probably b/c you dont need different credentials just to get in the cage? Why was Melendez there? How did he get in? He wasn't a cornerman during the actual fight. He just walked in since he also trains at Gracie. Everyone just kinda walks in and why would they stop someone who they know is a fighter and could be friends with Shields or Henderson or part of one of the teams (especially considering he used to train at Quest) since there were 50 people in the cage.

 

As for the fights, I actually enjoyed them more than the masses it seems, they weren't exciting, but I was entetained.

 

Mo vs. Mu- man talk about awful gameplanning, why didn't they switch up Gegard's strategy mid way through the fight? Hmmm I haven't KO'd him from my back yet, lets keep trying! Submission? Nah I'll only for a few in 5 rounds, sweeps? Pfft who needs that. Awful awful coaching and execution. Good job for Mo, his takedowns were good and I hate to see when guys go a whole fight without stopping takedowns against someone they know loves takedowns, what have you been training!? Where I was most impressed with Mo is his conditioning, he was gassed and had a swollen eye after two rounds but he kept the pressure so good job.

 

Aoki vs. Melendez- Thought Melendez would win just like Florian since very few Japanese fighters make the transition for numerous reasons. Once again, awful game planning and execution and once again he/they did the same thing for 5 whole rounds. Hmm I haven't caught him with a sub through 4 rounds, meh I'll just lay on my back some more maybe this purple belt (Melendez is only a purple right?) will finally let me catch him. Switch it up seriously people, in round 5 go for something stupid like a flying armbar, it may only be a 2% chance of winning but laying on your back getting pummeled isn't doing it, at least Leites tried stuff like that against Silva. Aoki didnt even go for any takedowns to be on top (that I can recall) awful awful job but Melendez looked good, good sub defence, picked him apart on the feet through the first two rounds, good job on the ground positioning, dont know who is going to fight next if he doesnt fight Aoki in Japan after Aoki's title defence.

 

Shields/Hendo- I wasn't sure on this one, I probably leaned more towards Hendo by KO but his age kept popping up at me, I wasn't a Shields fan before this fight as his last few SF/Elite XC fights weren't impressive but I'm with Shamrock and became a fan. I thought he was very impressive basically man handling Hendo after he escaped round 1. Little dissapointed he didn't finish the fight from numerous mounts so that takes away from the performance, Dan Henderson or not you should be able to finish from mount when your there 5 times

 

It seems he will be heading to the UFC but you never know so I won't say where I think he will go until it happens. If he stays in SF I dont want to see him against Miller as he would just take him down again and again like the first fight, Cung Lee would be a waste since I have said before I dont like Cung, maybe Scott Smith would be a good fight since Smith has some power, fighting Frank would be a waste as well since Frank stinks now, so yeah IDK, in the UFC I dont have a preference for 170 or 185, both GSP and Silva need opponents, I dont think a GSP fight would be as boring as everyone thinks, I think GSP would stand against him as why would he want to be on the ground with a wrestling black belt? As for Anderson, I think it would be boring if Anderson chooses it to be boring as Jake isn't real aggressive so I can't see him constantly shooting in like he would need to, so yeah, no real preference and Shields wouldn't really sell either one of those fights anyway since he isn't really known and has no charisma

[Dustin]

Strikeforce bombed in the ratings last night. Seriously bombed. 1.0 in the 18-35 demo, 2.63 million viewers overall. Wow.

 

To put that into perspective, it was beaten in the ratings by two episodes of COPS and America's Most Wanted. Also, their last CBS show did an average of 3.79 million. The Elite XC on CBS before that (with Kimbo) did an average of 4.56 million.

 

What this means: They're in serious trouble. CBS's affiliates were reportedly furious at the massive overrun knocking their 11pm news broadcasts back, especially considering the boring nature of the last three rounds of Shields-Hendo.

 

The end of show brawl may not have been a deal breaker on its own, but it won't help matters with the appalling ratings.

 

My guess is that they'll get one last shot on the network with Fedor and Hershal Walker on the card this summer. Advertising should sell well, but it will be up to Strikeforce to convince CBS of two things:

 

 

A) That Fedor can claw back the lost ratings.

 

B) They can tie Fedor down for another couple of years at least.

 

As of right now, Strikeforce without Fedor is a lost cause on CBS.

 

It's also interesting that they are hanging Mayhem out to dry in terms of claiming that him being in the cage had nothing to do with them. That's bullshido of the highest order and a clear sign that they don't want to put the heat on the Cesar Gracie camp until the Shields contract issue has a resolution.

 

Considering the fights, wouldn't you say those are solid ratings? Even I almost turned the channel a few times so I can't imagine what kept the casuals tuned in.

 

Also the show was built around Henderson and he's not exactly a huge star outside the hardcores. Plus UFC's counter.

 

Take all that into account and these numbers are not that bad IMO.

[Daffanka]

Considering the fights, wouldn't you say those are solid ratings? Even I almost turned the channel a few times so I can't imagine what kept the casuals tuned in.

 

Also the show was built around Henderson and he's not exactly a huge star outside the hardcores. Plus UFC's counter.

 

Take all that into account and these numbers are not that bad IMO.

 

Pretty sure those ratings are very bad for CBS. How is Coker going to convince them that the next card's going to pull in bigger numbers?

 

Disregarding the awful build up for the event it's not going to get much better. Fedor - Overeem is literally the only fight Strikeforce is building towards and Coker's going to go through hell to convince Vadim that Fedor should fight Overeem.

 

I think all Strikeforce has managed to do is convince everyone that you can't challenge the UFC.

 

Bellator seem to be in a much better position as a sustainable company. No huge contracts, no big cards falling through, no network with creative control, just solid action.

[Dustin]

Pretty sure those ratings are very bad for CBS. How is Coker going to convince them that the next card's going to pull in bigger numbers?

 

Disregarding the awful build up for the event it's not going to get much better. Fedor - Overeem is literally the only fight Strikeforce is building towards and Coker's going to go through hell to convince Vadim that Fedor should fight Overeem.

 

I think all Strikeforce has managed to do is convince everyone that you can't challenge the UFC.

 

Bellator seem to be in a much better position as a sustainable company. No huge contracts, no big cards falling through, no network with creative control, just solid action.

 

Give them the reasons I just stated in the previous post as an excuse and tell them to look back at the previous show to see what they are capable of? Something along those lines I'm sure. CBS deserves more credit than they get, they did come back for more after the EliteXC/Kimbo debacle after all.

 

Hopefully Strikeforce will change the way they do cards from here on out, especially CBS cards. Each fight on the last one looked great on paper, but also had the potential to turn out just the way they did (except maybe Aoki-Melendez as I for one never expected that). They were banking on the fact that Hendo and Mousasi were supposed to win in spectacular fashion and overlooked Shields and Lawal's ways to win because it wasn't very likely that they were going to.

 

I think now they should do one main event level fight and fill out the rest of the cards with hungry up and comers who are looking to make a name (Tyron Woodley).

[Blackman]

Boy. Bad week for MMA huh. UFC's embarassing and both weird display, and now Strikeforce has this 'brawl' that almost gets the show off the network.

[Daffanka]

Give them the reasons I just stated in the previous post as an excuse and tell them to look back at the previous show to see what they are capable of? Something along those lines I'm sure. CBS deserves more credit than they get, they did come back for more after the EliteXC/Kimbo debacle after all.

 

CBS knows nothing about MMA though. They thought Randleman - Whitehead was a great opener for the Lawler - Shields event. They put Walker in the main card. All they're seeing are declining numbers. Unless SF manages to convince them to put Overeem - Fedor (or was that supposed to be a PPV?) on CBS I can't see SF putting on a hyped enough card to claw back some viewers.

 

I don't know what viewers they get or expect on Showtime but I don't think they can afford another card like this on there.

[brashleyholland]

Considering the fights, wouldn't you say those are solid ratings? Even I almost turned the channel a few times so I can't imagine what kept the casuals tuned in.

 

Also the show was built around Henderson and he's not exactly a huge star outside the hardcores. Plus UFC's counter.

 

Take all that into account and these numbers are not that bad IMO.

 

The numbers are horrible, and more proof (if it were needed) that there are more UFC fans in America than MMA fans.

 

The show was built around Hendo because he was supposed to be the big UFC star that would provide CBS with an alternative to Fedor to headline events. He was coming off a spectacular KO at UFC 100 and a season as a coach on TUF. Hendo has never drawn for the UFC, so it was a huge gamble (especially with the almost year-long break he has taken) that failed spectacularly.

 

With Strikeforce seeming unable to guarantee Fedor's involvement long term, they threw all their eggs into the Hendo basket and it didn't pay off ratings wise. He may not be a huge star outside the hardcore fanbase, but he's undoubtedly the second biggest male star they have.

 

UFC counter programming is also something that they will always have to deal with. Don't get me wrong, I think its cool that a couple of million people tuned in to watch MMA on a Saturday night, but for CBS that number is unacceptable. They jumped off the MMA ship once when Lawler-Smith tanked on CBS and Kimbo was iced, they'll do so again if SF can't deliver.

 

CBS deserves more credit than they get, they did come back for more after the EliteXC/Kimbo debacle after all.

 

They did, but with a different company. Bellator will be waiting by the phone. The other option is promoting in-house, but CBS have been bitten twice now with MMA promotions - that might be twice too many for them to consider continuing with live MMA in a prime time slot.

 

I think now they should do one main event level fight and fill out the rest of the cards with hungry up and comers who are looking to make a name (Tyron Woodley).

 

They should be running cards exactly like that with the weak roster that they have...however with a TV format they can't. If you buy a PPV, or even pay for Showtime to watch fights, you're less likely to switch channels halfway through. CBS needs names all through the card...better to have a boring fight between two recognisable guys than an average one between two guys that nobody knows. Loving Woodley by the way, he's got promise.

 

CBS knows nothing about MMA though. They thought Randleman - Whitehead was a great opener for the Lawler - Shields event. They put Walker in the main card. All they're seeing are declining numbers. Unless SF manages to convince them to put Overeem - Fedor (or was that supposed to be a PPV?) on CBS I can't see SF putting on a hyped enough card to claw back some viewers.

 

I don't know what viewers they get or expect on Showtime but I don't think they can afford another card like this on there.

 

The Randleman-Whitehead and Hershal Walker fights were on Showtime.

 

As much as I don't like it personally, Walker was always going to end up on the main card and it was the right call for SF to make. He got tones of press in the lead up to the event. It got 517,000 viewers, a 51.6% increase on their last Showtime card. Those extra viewers got to see Lawler/Manhoef, Cyborg/Connen and Diaz/Zaromskis, all of which made the winners look good.

 

From what I've heard the plan is for the winner/loser of Overeem vs Rogers to face the winner/loser of Silva vs Arlovski. Overeem will be in the K-1 GP Final 16 this year and Fedor's people want to make a fight with Barnett or Ishii happen on NYE, so I doubt we'll see Fedor/Overeem this year. By that point, the ship will have sailed on Strikeforce/CBS's relationship IMO.

 

The problem gets magnified in Strikeforce because they're pressured to put on, dare I say it, UFC-caliber fights but don't have nowhere near the talent depth to keep that sustainable.

 

This is EXACTLY the point. They're getting big-show exposure without the roster to back it up. If Strikeforce had the stars to get 4 million viewers once every two months, CBS would put them on once every two months. As it stands, they have Fedor once, maybe twice a year. You can't expect casual viewers to remain excited for Strikeforce when they only see them once every six months.

 

The best thing about the UFC in terms of growing the fan base right now is that when someone asks "When's the next UFC fight?", they won't have to wait more than three or four weeks at the absolute max. Strikeforce can't expect to build stars without regular programming.

[brashleyholland]

The word out of Rough House is that the winner of the Daley-Koscheck fight will get a coaching spot on TUF 12 opposite GSP, with a title fight following the season finale. That means we won't see GSP in action again until November/December of this year, and that the dream match with Silva has been shelved for now.

 

Also, my main reason for looking forward to Bellator this year has been thoroughly stamped on. 'Judo' Jim Wallhead has become the latest victim of the ash cloud of doom. He's been pulled from the Bellator welterweight GP. His replacement is Ryan Thomas, who was the kid that lost via that ridiculous technical submission to Ben Askren last week. Glad to see him get another shot, although the circumstances suck. Expected Jim to sweep the GP.

[jesterx7769]

Dissapointed in that for TUF as these last two seasons have had problems get the fight to work so throwing out the next title fight that far in advance I am skeptic over. However the last few seasons have sucked and this one seems the worst of them all so I may not even watch.

[Daffanka]

It's not really a problem. The WW division needs some time to sort out some fresh challengers.

 

Anyway WEC 48 is on this weekend and you should watch it because it features:

 

#1 FW vs. #3 FW.

Sweet LW (re)match

#2 FW vs. top 10 FW

That guy who headkicked the guy running away vs. someone

Scott "Lifted another guy off the ground with a guillotine" Jorgensen vs. someone

The Korean Zombie fighting for free on Spike.

 

Also this man

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/k9ghvn.gif

 

is on the prelims.

[FaceSmashingFu]

WEC 48 is going to be insane!

 

Jose Aldo vs. Urijah Faber - I have to take Aldo in this fight, although people are seriously overlooking Faber's heart and toughness. I believe that Faber will make it to the judges but he'll only win one or two rounds.

 

Bendo vs. Cowboy 2 - Hands down the 2009 FOTY! I thought that the Cowboy should've won that first fight but it was extremely close. I think Cowboy exposes Bendo's questionable chin in this one and TKO's him in the later rounds but Bendo is incredibly tough and impossible to submit.

 

Manny Gamburyan vs. Mike Brown - My guy MTB! Manny is outclassed in this fight imo, plus the fact that his chin has failed him before? Brown will KO Gamburyan in the second round.

 

Shane Roller vs. Anthony Njokuani - Roller is an excellent wrestler and has shown some power in his punches but Njokuani is probably the best striker in the WEC's 155 division. I think this one will be a back-and-forth war ending with Njokuani sending Roller to the floor.

 

Scott Jorgenson vs. Antonio Banuelos 2 - The first fight was a war but I thought it was a clear cut win for Jorgenson, he gets a chance for justice here. Jorgenson recently beat Takeya Mizugaki who is a top BW and has won 3 fights since the first fight while Banuelos has only fought the unheralded Kenji Osawa (dec. win). That combined with Jorgenson being the better man in their first fight and I don't see this ending well for Banuelos.

 

This is the WEC's best ever card, a lot of people are complaining about PPV but I think it is well worth it. Every single fight on this card looks like it will deliver the fireworks and I can't wait!

[d_w_w]

Would like to watch the WEC show, but will pass on it. While I have the disposable income to buy probably three or four ppv's per month if I want (especially given that I split the UFC events with my brother-in-law), it's just a matter of principle at this point.

 

I mean, if we split an HD PPV each month (which is conservative, given that there are sometimes 2 per month), that's already $330 per year, plus splitting the food (which is easily $50, so another $300).

 

If the WEC starts showing up twice a year, that's another $110 (as I doubt I can get anyone to split that with me).

 

Frankly, it costs me more per year to be a MMA fan than it does to be a fan of any other sports, despite the fact that I typically get to go to one NFL and MLB game a year.

 

If Zuffa or Comcast or whoever is in charge of such things would offer a discounted bundle package (like, $5 off per ppv if I buy 6, $10 if I buy 12?), I'd be all over it. As it stands now, I'm toying with the idea of giving up on UFC PPV's altogether.

[Capelli King]

The general problem with Strikeforce and with Affliction for that matter is that they have the ambition and the financial backing and exposure, the problem is that they both lack anything to expose:p If you look at both of their rosters they had a bunch of mainly UFC veterans which were basically past their prime + Fedor. One superstar is not enough to "carry" any organization to the level the UFC is now.

 

The UFC has been around for ages, they basically have their own "farm" system which grows their own talent though TUF and their regular PPV shows. It took them ages to get to where they are today and allot of people forget that the UFC was at one point in time in a similar position that Strikeforce are today (in other words with a roster made up of fighters from other companies or from other fight sports).

 

I think if anyone ever wants to compete with the UFC they need to have a long term plan, take it easy, build up a proper roster of your own fighters with a few additions from outside and build up, eventually 5-6 years down the road things could be different

[Daffanka]

Strikeforce doesn't have the brand recognition or big name fighters to warrant going on national TV and trying to take on the UFC.

 

Anyway

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ7hQ-7uK_0

 

I can't wait for 113. Machida - Shogun 2 for one but watching Koscheck maybe stand with Daley would be great because I can't stand the guy.

[brashleyholland]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/kmeyers/motivator4753024pt6.jpg

 

I love this

[Synticha]

That picture is a legend

[RingofHonorGuard]

That picture is a legend

 

Bob Sapp did more damage to Nogueira than that truck could have ever dreamed possible. However, I thought it was a tractor or something? I heard a tractor(or something like it) ran him over and pierced his back, which is why he's got that awful divet there.

 

 

----

 

So anyway, James Toney vs. Randy Couture seems like it's going down, though I don't think anything's been officially announced? Could be wrong there, as well. I'm actually putting money on James Toney if they fight, and I think it's smart money. Why? Two reasons... Nogueira and Lesnar both knocked Couture on his ass, and neither are a third as experienced as Toney in the striking department.

 

Obviously Couture is going to be the major favorite given the fact that he's a Greco-Roman wrestler and a gazillion time UFC champion in two weight classes... That's great. The only problem with any of that is... Randy Couture has to get in close to take him down, not an easy task. I'm taking Toney by KO early in the first round.

 

And before anyone says anything about Couture shooting a double leg... I have this to say... No.

 

----

 

I think the WEC pay-per-view is going to bomb tonight, unfortunately. That's a shame. The main event will either be over in a flash or go to a decision, neither going the way of Urijah Faber. Faber is going to get torn up, especially if he makes any stupid mistakes(IE: reckless flying knees/elbows/hadokens/etc). I can't see anyone really stopping Aldo in the WEC, in any division.

[Daffanka]

Couture gets Toney down no problem. From there we'll see some hilarious grappling as a 46 year old man looks like Roger Gracie.

 

That Nog picture would be a thousand times better without the stupid motivational explaining the joke.