The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

As far as the title being meaningless goes, you'd think if they had it on the line in the tourney and in quick succession there were three legit title fights it'd start to mean more.

 

Don't be commin' around here with your fancy common sense!

[Tag01]

To be fair, warranted criticism of strikeforce isn't hate, it's just warranted criticism. I like strikeforce, think they put on fun fights, and watch every time. But this conference call nonsense and inexplicably ruling out 5 round fights? Stupid and unnecessary. No title on the line? Stupid and unnecessary. The fourth judge? Stupid and unnecessary. All of these things dampen interest and stir up criticism when all of it was avoidable. I'm excited for this tournament, but a little less than I was before Coker unleashed this bit of bungling. End of the world? No. pointlessly drawing criticism to something that until now was getting the most good press for strikeforce since the eliteXC buyout is not a positive thing, regardless of minimizing spin.

 

Another thing, "the strikeforce title is meaningless anyway" shouldn't be a defense for anything. That's how it got meaningless! A heavyweight title that is considered by fans to matter is money in strikeforce's pocket every time it's defended, period. Adding value to titles would be a great step for them from a promotional standpoint, and they're just not doing it for no particular reason. So I'm not buying into "the titles are worthless anyway." They don't have to be.

[Daffanka]

I actually have an open question for some people here: How do you think the UFC lightweight division will manage without BJ Penn as the dominant champion?

 

The guy's been one of the top draws in the UFC for a while. He's not up there with GSP, Lesnar, Rashad etc. but for a long time he's been the cornerstone of the division and a very solid draw you could throw virtually any legitimate challenger at and they would do really good numbers. But now that Edgar has beaten him down and he seems to be trying another welterweight run (which I think Fitch is going to put a stop to) he's out of the picture for a while.

 

Now I recognize that the UFC titles themselves sell PPVs. They're the most meaningful championships in MMA today and the UFC have done an excellent job at cultivating the image that whenever those titles are contested it's between two of the very best fighters in the world battling for the #1 spot; and to be fair it usually is.

 

Edgar/Maynard 2 didn't draw anywhere near what Penn usually does and I think probably drew under the average of what a UFC title fight does. Now there's several factors contributing - Aldo dropping out and being replaced with a pretty poor co-main, the UFC not really getting behind the fight or the champion as much as they should have and it being on New Year's Day.

 

But I feel that if it was Penn defending against Maynard it would've probably broken 500k instead of staying at around 350k. Penn is the only lightweight the UFC have ever really sunk their promotional teeth into and the division is still in something of a mess with Pettis, Dunham, Guida, Sot, Miller and so on looking for title shots and it's perfectly reasonable to try to wait and see who emerges as the dominant guy.

 

My personal opinion is that they need to grab the opportunity to make the division into something else than Penn's abandoned playground. Building UFC 130 into such a monster card is a great start but the UFC really needs to not just get behind Edgar and Maynard but the rest of the division as well. The last fight being what it was and with such a great storyline leading into their third fight there's no reason the UFC can't make it into a big, even defining, lightweight title fight.

 

And they need to follow suit with the rest of their dynamite lightweights. Pettis/Guida is a great fight and with the right promotion it's going to lead to big business against Edgar or Maynard. After they beat their respective opponents have Dunham fight Sot and have Miller fight Sherk.

 

Is the lightweight division ever going to turn into the star studded light heavyweight division? Not for a while. Is it possible to turn it into a highly interesting mix of established fighters and young up and comers with many crucial fights and anticipated title defenses? Certainly.

 

This is very long and rambling post but hopefully it made sense.

[Dustin]

If Anthony Pettis lives up to his potential I think he'll become a huge draw at LW.

[d_w_w]

In general, I think you're right - this could be a great opportunity for the UFC to build up a number of lightweight stars. Honestly though, I don't know how it will play out. Part of Penn's appeal (beyond the fact that he was fun to watch fight ... Uno anyone?) was that he was pretty dominant as a lightweight (only has lightweight losses to Pulver and Edgar, I think?). I don't think that a fighter has to be that dominant to get support and popularity, but I wonder how fans will respond if the belt gets traded with any regularity.

 

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

Related topic:

 

This is an impossible question (due to the draw result in the second fight and the fact that the 130 card is shaping up to be better than 125), but do you think that Maynard / Edgar 3 would sell better than the previous fight? That is, if we could wash away the fact that this is a re-match off of a draw and wash all of the sales from 125 and 130 that are related to other fights, do you think that the 3rd fight is more a draw than the 2nd fight? In other words, how much have Maynard and Edgar's stock risen given the performances they put on in that fight, given the fairly mediocre PPV numbers that the event pulled in?

 

For me, I kind Maynard and especially Edgar are going to be much easier to sell in the future, starting obviously with the upcoming rematch. I'm a habitual PPV buyer, so I would have bought 125 either way. However, I saw 125 in person (if a large MMA event is near NM, good odds I'll go), and while attendance looked a little smaller than normal, the people that were there were pretty captivated by the main event. As people left, it seemed like they were disgruntled about the result, but excited about the fight. I think these folks are likely to buy/attend Maynard / Edgar 3 and are likely to tell their MMA-inclined friends that they should buy/attend that event as well. This is kind of a minor thing of course, as there was only so many people in attendance.

 

But I think this trend was reflected in the post-fight mma media coverage, where a lot of commentators describe the fight as exciting and such. I believe/hope that this, plus the post-fight discussion on various mma forums have made Maynard/Edgar 3 a much more sell-able fight than Maynard / Edgar 2.

 

Thoughts?

[jesterx7769]

In other Strikeforce tournament news I didn't see mentioned, Coker says it may become international holding some events in Canada or Japan. Which makes sense since in his world its a "Major Inernational tournament and only makes sense"

 

Isn't everyone just sick of his lies and bull crap by now? Seriously, just put on a few actual consistent meaningful fights for once then we will listen. He reminds me of the guy on the corner shouting his religious end of the worldl non-sense, I just don't listen or take him seriously anymore.

 

UFC LW division will be fine. The divisions fluctuate (wasn't it only 18 months we talked about how weak the HW division was and now its talked about as one of the best?) also BJ is by no means out of things. If he wins this coming fight, then his next, he can easily fight for the LW belt as long as Maynard or Petis have it and not Edgar. He is just stuck right now as no matter what he does right he isn't getting GSP or Edgar again for the title

 

edit: people are severly over rating the fact that it was Edgar vs. Maynar 2, why? Because no one cared the first time they fought. E vs. M 2 was all about little known/uncharismatic guys to the casual audience fighting, Edgar was coming off his two wins of BJ but thats all the match really had going. Frankie isn't on ESPN, in movies, or in Gatorade/Under Armour/UFC/Workout supplement commercials and doesn't have a legacy like every other champion. For this third match, I believe it will sell alot more and get a lot more coverage, and not because of the rubber match factor but because of how close the title match was. It also gave them charisma. Maynard was devastated and lots of people have talked about that since. Frankie of course still has shown litle charisma but I think Maynard will (hopefully) take the PR duties on his shoulders and get people to either really rally behind him or hate him.

[LoNdOn]

In other Strikeforce tournament news I didn't see mentioned, Coker says it may become international holding some events in Canada or Japan. Which makes sense since in his world its a "Major Inernational tournament and only makes sense"

 

Isn't everyone just sick of his lies and bull crap by now? Seriously, just put on a few actual consistent meaningful fights for once then we will listen. He reminds me of the guy on the corner shouting his religious end of the worldl non-sense, I just don't listen or take him seriously anymore.

 

UFC LW division will be fine. The divisions fluctuate (wasn't it only 18 months we talked about how weak the HW division was and now its talked about as one of the best?) also BJ is by no means out of things. If he wins this coming fight, then his next, he can easily fight for the LW belt as long as Maynard or Petis have it and not Edgar. He is just stuck right now as no matter what he does right he isn't getting GSP or Edgar again for the title

 

edit: people are severly over rating the fact that it was Edgar vs. Maynar 2, why? Because no one cared the first time they fought. E vs. M 2 was all about little known/uncharismatic guys to the casual audience fighting, Edgar was coming off his two wins of BJ but thats all the match really had going. Frankie isn't on ESPN, in movies, or in Gatorade/Under Armour/UFC/Workout supplement commercials and doesn't have a legacy like every other champion. For this third match, I believe it will sell alot more and get a lot more coverage, and not because of the rubber match factor but because of how close the title match was. It also gave them charisma. Maynard was devastated and lots of people have talked about that since. Frankie of course still has shown litle charisma but I think Maynard will (hopefully) take the PR duties on his shoulders and get people to either really rally behind him or hate him.

 

Hate to disagree with you there sir, but I think the general consensus is that the heavyweight divisions is still one of the weaker weight classes that there is at the moment. It is indeed better than it was 18 months ago, but I don't think that is enough to justify it as being one of the best. That is like going from a can of dog food to rump steak; yes it is an upgrade, but it isn't filet mignon.

 

When you get asked to name the top 15 fighters in a given weight division, most mma fans can quickly rattle off who they would be, but find yourself outside of the top ten heavyweights and you are beginning to clutch at straws.

 

I would also like to add that I don't feel Maynard is capable of carrying hype duties in any fight. The reason this fight will sell is because their second meeting was exciting to watch and as you said, it was also a close fight. Maynard lacks in the charisma department and unfortunately I don't see this changing anytime soon. So unless he comes out and quotes the immortal words of a Mr Ken Shamrock saying "I'm going to beat you into a living death!" I will sceptically watch to see how the eventual hyping comes into fruition.

[The Shape]

LW looks fine to me, the last couple of months have done wonders for it post-Penn. EM3 will be anticipated due to the quality of the last match, and ideally this time Edgar wins, finally cementing his reign and setting up a potential bout with Pettis, whose hype will only grow if he beats Guida. And if he loses, you have a hugely popular Clay in a legit position, so you give him the shot. Maynard against either of those two would be fine, and from then on guys like Sotiropolous have their appeal as well. Maybe Penn would drop back down and face him, though I do not want to see him anywhere near Edgar again. I think Frankie takes the third anyway so it's all good if that's the case.

[ampulator]

I actually have an open question for some people here: How do you think the UFC lightweight division will manage without BJ Penn as the dominant champion?

 

The guy's been one of the top draws in the UFC for a while. He's not up there with GSP, Lesnar, Rashad etc. but for a long time he's been the cornerstone of the division and a very solid draw you could throw virtually any legitimate challenger at and they would do really good numbers. But now that Edgar has beaten him down and he seems to be trying another welterweight run (which I think Fitch is going to put a stop to) he's out of the picture for a while.

 

Now I recognize that the UFC titles themselves sell PPVs. They're the most meaningful championships in MMA today and the UFC have done an excellent job at cultivating the image that whenever those titles are contested it's between two of the very best fighters in the world battling for the #1 spot; and to be fair it usually is.

 

Edgar/Maynard 2 didn't draw anywhere near what Penn usually does and I think probably drew under the average of what a UFC title fight does. Now there's several factors contributing - Aldo dropping out and being replaced with a pretty poor co-main, the UFC not really getting behind the fight or the champion as much as they should have and it being on New Year's Day.

 

But I feel that if it was Penn defending against Maynard it would've probably broken 500k instead of staying at around 350k. Penn is the only lightweight the UFC have ever really sunk their promotional teeth into and the division is still in something of a mess with Pettis, Dunham, Guida, Sot, Miller and so on looking for title shots and it's perfectly reasonable to try to wait and see who emerges as the dominant guy.

 

My personal opinion is that they need to grab the opportunity to make the division into something else than Penn's abandoned playground. Building UFC 130 into such a monster card is a great start but the UFC really needs to not just get behind Edgar and Maynard but the rest of the division as well. The last fight being what it was and with such a great storyline leading into their third fight there's no reason the UFC can't make it into a big, even defining, lightweight title fight.

 

And they need to follow suit with the rest of their dynamite lightweights. Pettis/Guida is a great fight and with the right promotion it's going to lead to big business against Edgar or Maynard. After they beat their respective opponents have Dunham fight Sot and have Miller fight Sherk.

 

Is the lightweight division ever going to turn into the star studded light heavyweight division? Not for a while. Is it possible to turn it into a highly interesting mix of established fighters and young up and comers with many crucial fights and anticipated title defenses? Certainly.

 

This is very long and rambling post but hopefully it made sense.

To answer your question, the UFC LW division is packed... with talent, but unfortunately, not full of stars. If Maynard wins the rematch, you bet your ass the UFC is going to try to set up Penn against him. Styles make fights, and I believe Penn's style is very conducive against Maynard. Maynard doesn't mix up or transition very well in my opinion - if he's going for the takedown, he's not setting it up with strikes. If you don't set up your TD's OR make him think you are striking with him, your TD will fail. Or if Maynard's punching, he's not faking a TD. If he can't keep Penn guessing whether he's really going for the TD or really not, his striking will not have the desired effect He's also a bit flatfooted to move away from Penn's punches, and Penn's chin is too good for him to stand and bang with Penn. Penn's also a counter-puncher, which means, the minute Maynard throws a punch, Penn is going to throw his. If Penn connnects.. well, you know what happens.

 

Styles make fights, and like I've said before, Penn's style might be too much for Maynard. That doesn't matter if Edgar wins, though. If Edgar wins... Penn is in a tight spot, as is the UFC is, in terms of having big name stars in the LW division.

[Save_Us.Necro]

The LW's, as ampulator mentioned, is full of talent but not stars....well not stars as of yet. You have a few guys on the cusp of stardom (Petis and Edgar) but aside from them and Penn, I don't believe there aren't any stars in the division at the moment...until Aldo moves up. I do think it's their best division cause there's so much TALENT and there are many tremendous fights that can be made up at anytime there, but it lacks the star names the other divisions have.

[brashleyholland]

Interesting fact about the lightweight division: Maynard vs Edgar at UFC 125 was the first time that a 'modern era' UFC PPV has been headlined by a lightweight fight not featuring BJ Penn.

 

Lets look at the numbers: 5,896 of the 12,874 strong crowd got in free. Even after comping around 45% of the house, there were still nearly 1000 empty seats. A mitigating factor was the date: Jan 1st isn't a great day to sell tickets to the hungover 18-35 market, plus there are other forms of entertainment competing for the dollar on a national day off. Also, this was the first time either fighter had headlined a PPV - with all due respect, it was Couture, Toney and Penn's names up in lights for UFC 118.

 

The only Vegas card that it outsold in the last 6 six yeas was UFC 106. This was the card that was set to feature Lesnar vs Shane Carwin, with Coleman/Ortiz on the undercard. In the space of a few weeks, first Coleman, then Lesnar pulled out. This really hurt ticket sales - people weren't pre-ordering because they were waiting for a replacement main event; when that event never came, late sales were virtually non-existent. But I digress.

 

You could say that the lightweight division was a vanity project for BJ Penn - remember, between 2002 and late 2006 there was no title in the weightclass and only a handful of fights. Sherk for Florian and Franca, then they set Penn up with a winnable fight in England to get the belt on him.

 

So the numbers say no, the lightweight division wont be alight without Penn. They're going to struggle - Henderson and Pettis are relative nobodies. Sherk and Florian have already 'been there', Dunham and Miller are very 'generic'. Guida is a gatekeeper.

 

But keep in mind that compared to the 170-256lb divisions, 155 is still a baby. People say that nobody cares about the lighter fighters, but when the UFC brand is involved, who knows. If anyone can make people care about lightweight MMA - it's Zuffa.

 

Besides, who's going to draw at 170 if GSP moves on? Jake Shields? Jon Fitch? Dan Hardy? Maybe it's not an issue that's exclusive to 155...

[brashleyholland]

This is an impossible question (due to the draw result in the second fight and the fact that the 130 card is shaping up to be better than 125), but do you think that Maynard / Edgar 3 would sell better than the previous fight?

 

 

UFC 130 will eclipse UFC 125 in terms of PPV buys and live attendance - whether that is Edgar vs Maynard 3 selling better their second encounter - I'm not so sure.

 

Looking at the positives - the UFC 125 fight was great, and there is plenty of highlight-reel action to splice into video packages, countdown shows and previews. Frankie Edgar is getting the ESPN treatment. So there's an added promotability to it. Also, it was a good fight with an ambiguous ending - I'd like to see it again.

 

On the flipside, you have Rampage Jackson on the undercard; that's going to stick at least 200,000 buys on the 350k baserate, so you've got a false economy in terms of knowing how well the Edgar/Maynard fight is going to do as a draw. You also have the card taking place on a better date, and a stacked undercard with some great fights in the aforementioned 'Page vs Silva and Mir vs Nelson bouts.

 

I think the undercard for this fight tells you all you need to know about the UFC's confidence of it selling on it's own.

[EddieFnG]

Does anybody know if Strikeforce has been picked up by another channel in the UK yet?

[brashleyholland]

Does anybody know if Strikeforce has been picked up by another channel in the UK yet?

 

Might know something tomorrow.

[ampulator]

UFC 130 will eclipse UFC 125 in terms of PPV buys and live attendance - whether that is Edgar vs Maynard 3 selling better their second encounter - I'm not so sure.

 

Looking at the positives - the UFC 125 fight was great, and there is plenty of highlight-reel action to splice into video packages, countdown shows and previews. Frankie Edgar is getting the ESPN treatment. So there's an added promotability to it. Also, it was a good fight with an ambiguous ending - I'd like to see it again.

 

On the flipside, you have Rampage Jackson on the undercard; that's going to stick at least 200,000 buys on the 350k baserate, so you've got a false economy in terms of knowing how well the Edgar/Maynard fight is going to do as a draw. You also have the card taking place on a better date, and a stacked undercard with some great fights in the aforementioned 'Page vs Silva and Mir vs Nelson bouts.

 

I think the undercard for this fight tells you all you need to know about the UFC's confidence of it selling on it's own.

The problem is... neither Maynard nor Edgar are used to selling a fight, have good mic skills, or have that "LOOK" about them.

 

Sonnen may not be the best fighter in the world, but he can talk like no one else. That alone helped them sell a lot of PPV's. Rampage is... well, Rampage. He's got the menacing bad ass crazy look that MMA fans love.

[brashleyholland]

The problem is... neither Maynard nor Edgar are used to selling a fight, have good mic skills, or have that "LOOK" about them.

 

Sonnen may not be the best fighter in the world, but he can talk like no one else. That alone helped them sell a lot of PPV's. Rampage is... well, Rampage. He's got the menacing bad ass crazy look that MMA fans love.

 

It's potentially only a short-term problem though. Let's be honest, nobody knew who Chael Sonnen was until last year.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Frankie Edgar is going to turn into Chael Sonnen overnight, and nor should he - but if the UFC are going to be spending more time in NJ, Boston and (fingers crossed) NY over the next 18 months, he could very well become the champion they need. He's a good interview and he comes across well on MMA Live on ESPN etc...who knows what he can do in the right market given the chance?

[brashleyholland]

So the latest 'word on the street' is that Showtime had a hand in there being no five-round fights in the heavyweight tourney. Apparently Ken Hershman and co did not want a repeat of the 'Nashville' situation - with numerous bouts going the five round distance, especially heavyweight fights.

 

That's completely understandable and makes perfect sense from Showtime's point of view. Again though, it's no excuse for Strikeforce's poor handling of the situation.

 

They took a lot of stick last year from people suggesting that Hershman ran Strikeforce - hell, the man himself said that every single fight that airs passes by him for approval - so it's understandable that Coker didn't want to come out and say "Showtime says three rounds".

 

But if you're gonna lie, sorry, be political, then at least come up with something that isn't going to get you caught out and made to look stupid. How about...

 

"These guys are going to be facing a heavy schedule of three tough fights in nine months. We want to give our fans the best action possible and the fights that they want to see. With 25-minute bouts there is a huge risk of injury - to mitigate that risk and to prevent fighters pulling out of the later stages due to wear and tear, we've decided to make all tournement bouts 3X5's."

 

The worst anyone can accuse them of then is putting their champ in a tournament where his belt isn't on the line. The hillarious part is of course that if Coker had just kept his mouth shut and never mentioned rounds/titles in the first place until he had everything confirmed, he'd have avoided all of this criticism in the first place. Someone needs to get that man a better press officer.

[brashleyholland]

Does anybody know if Strikeforce has been picked up by another channel in the UK yet?

 

 

Might know something tomorrow.

 

Or not, lol. Buuuuuut, it looks like BAMMA is rising from the ashes and could be having Paul Daley headlining an Arena show in the UK sometime this year. He's got his bout agreement already, could be confirmed today.

 

Strikeforce is in a tough spot with regards to the UK. Bravo was bought up by Sky, who have a deal of sorts with the UFC. I know that the UFC have been fairly insistent in the past when it comes to their TV partners having deals 'the competition' in major markets. If that's the case, then I don't know where else Strikeforce would fit in to the UK market. Channel 4 maybe, now that they're looking for new directions in the post Big Brother age? ITV have been keen supporters of boxing in the past, but it just doesn't seem like a good fit for them.

[EddieFnG]

I wouldn't mind them being put on a channel like Extreme Sports, they're already airing M1 so it would be a nice fit.

 

As far as BAMMA is concerned, I heard Alex Reid is apparently signed for BAMMA 5? And Paul Daley would be pretty sweet. I hope they can make a new deal with Bob Sapp as I'd love to see him fight and I'll no doubt go.

[brashleyholland]

I wouldn't mind them being put on a channel like Extreme Sports, they're already airing M1 so it would be a nice fit.

 

As far as BAMMA is concerned, I heard Alex Reid is apparently signed for BAMMA 5? And Paul Daley would be pretty sweet. I hope they can make a new deal with Bob Sapp as I'd love to see him fight and I'll no doubt go.

 

It's looking like Daley is a go for the MEN Arena on Feb 26th. Possibly against Frank Trigg.

[EddieFnG]

That would be me seriously sold.

[brashleyholland]

That would be me seriously sold.

 

Partial card to be announced later today, tickets on sale tomorrow at 10am via ticketmaster.

[EddieFnG]

Partial card to be announced later today, tickets on sale tomorrow at 10am via ticketmaster.

 

How do you know so much?

[brashleyholland]

How do you know so much?

 

It's my job...I'm a lucky mo-fo :-p

 

Latest word is that Trigg at a catchweight is off the table. Maybe. Couple more names being thrown around but we should know for sure later today.

 

Seems like Daley's people leaked this out a little too soon, so there is a lot of pressure on to get the deal done, etc.

 

Also heard that Strikeforce are apparently very annoyed at the whole situation.

[Tag01]

I'm guessing daley has one of those strikeforce contracts that is only exclusive in the u.s.? Daley-trigg is interesting but trigg's pretty much done, and I think he'd get torched pretty quick.