The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[The Shape]

missed the pettis fight, was it good?

 

Not great, but had some entertaining grappling. Good to see Pettis bringing in the takedowns in round two. Was worried it was going to be given to Stephens even though he didn't deserve it at all, luckily two judges saw sense.

 

Maia/Santiago should be good. Really warmed to Maia thanks to the Munoz fight.

[damonster]

Not great, but had some entertaining grappling. Good to see Pettis bringing in the takedowns in round two. Was worried it was going to be given to Stephens even though he didn't deserve it at all, luckily two judges saw sense.

 

Maia/Santiago should be good. Really warmed to Maia thanks to the Munoz fight.

 

thought i had it PVRed so i could watch the leafs/sens game (hockey), but didn't

[damonster]

Are all the fights tonight gonna be decisions?

[OldStingberg]

lol. Sonnen just dropped a pipe bomb. That was thoroughly entertaining.

[ampulator]

lol. Sonnen just dropped a pipe bomb. That was thoroughly entertaining.

In one of the largest red states in the USA, Sonnen got booed badly.

 

Sonnen is the ultimate heel.

[KingJoel]

Was awfully nice of the UFC to show us the first round of Maynard vs Edgar II. Now when's the actual fight beginning?

[ampulator]

Frankie Edgar just KOed Gray Maynard.

[The Shape]

Amazing. Edgar has to be top four P4P now, no question. Not really into Aldo from what I've seen in the UFC so far but bleh. Still a great event thanks to Frankie and Chael.

[OldStingberg]

On the one hand, I was really hoping for them to split rounds four and five for another draw. That would have been hilarious.

 

On the other hand, I'll take an Edgar KO.

 

What a crazy night. Frankie Edgar gets KO of the Night, Chael Sonnen (probably) gets Submission of the Night, and Leonard Garcia is on the proper end of a 29-28 decision. Not even Nostradamus could have predicted all that to happen on the same night.

[KingJoel]

On the one hand, I was really hoping for them to split rounds four and five for another draw. That would have been hilarious.

 

On the other hand, I'll take an Edgar KO.

 

What a crazy night. Frankie Edgar gets KO of the Night, Chael Sonnen (probably) gets Submission of the Night, and Leonard Garcia is on the proper end of a 29-28 decision. Not even Nostradamus could have predicted all that to happen on the same night.

 

 

One judge had it 28-28 after the third. The others, had it 29-28 Edgar. It could've swung either way in the championship rounds.

[OldStingberg]

Amazing. Edgar has to be top four P4P now, no question. Not really into Aldo from what I've seen in the UFC so far but bleh. Still a great event thanks to Frankie and Chael.

 

I think it's hard to put Frankie ahead of Aldo right now. They've both (mostly) been edging out decisions in the UFC thanks to their superior striking but the major difference has been Aldo hasn't been getting himself pummeled silly for a round in each of his fights.

 

For me, my top six would be GSP, Silva, Bones, Aldo, and Edgar in that order. Edgar certainly is a step closer to overtaking Aldo after tonight, but it'll take more than one TKO in over four years to make me put him ahead of Aldo, even if Aldo seems more and more content to just cruise to decisions with his skills.

 

Oh crap, I forgot about Cruz. I think I'd put Cruz fifth and Edgar sixth. Cruz has been handling his opponents easier than Edgar in a very similar fashion. I wouldn't put either ahead of Aldo, though, because I don't think Aldo's really even been tested yet, while both Cruz and Edgar have had guys get real close to their level lately.

[OldStingberg]

One judge had it 28-28 after the third. The others, had it 29-28 Edgar. It could've swung either way in the championship rounds.

 

That's the dumbest thing ever. If that first round wasn't a 10-8, what the hell is? Even Edgar's cornermen were conceding a 10-8 that round. Damn MMA judges. Most of these guys can't even get the simple stuff right.

[ampulator]

If Edgar ever loses, anyone he loses to must be really, really good... and if he has to drop down, he would be a beast in 145 or even 135.

 

He just KOed Gray Maynard, who could might have cut from as high as 185.

[The Shape]

I think it's hard to put Frankie ahead of Aldo right now. They've both (mostly) been edging out decisions in the UFC thanks to their superior striking but the major difference has been Aldo hasn't been getting himself pummeled silly for a round in each of his fights.

 

For me, my top six would be GSP, Silva, Bones, Aldo, and Edgar in that order. Edgar certainly is a step closer to overtaking Aldo after tonight, but it'll take more than one TKO in over four years to make me put him ahead of Aldo, even if Aldo seems more and more content to just cruise to decisions with his skills.

 

Oh crap, I forgot about Cruz. I think I'd put Cruz fifth and Edgar sixth. Cruz has been handling his opponents easier than Edgar in a very similar fashion. I wouldn't put either ahead of Aldo, though, because I don't think Aldo's really even been tested yet, while both Cruz and Edgar have had guys get real close to their level lately.

 

Aldo unconvincingly beat Hominick and Florian by decision, Edgar just KO'd the only man who ever beat him, after beating BJ Penn twice. Size has to count in P4P debates as well, and he's a small dude.

 

With that said I find it strange that White's campaigning for Frankie to drop down already, surely let him run with this and see how far he goes, he's just beaten possibly the strongest dude in the class...if and when he does get beaten then it's time to drop. With that said, one day I'd love to see him fighting Dominick Cruz.

[OldStingberg]

There was nothing unconvincing about Aldo last night. He handled Florian. He outstruck him, with more power, and stuffed 18 of 19 takedown attempts according to FightMetric. It was unspectacular, but certainly not unconvincing.

 

The Hominick fight wasn't really unconvincing, either. It's just that Aldo gassed in the fifth, which he claims was because of illness, and that allowed Hominick to finish the fight strong. But let's not forget when the fight was over, Hominick looked like this:

 

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mark-hominick-head-595x542.jpg

 

And yet that was Aldo's worst performance in years. Think about that. Look at that picture of Hominick and realize that that's the work of Aldo on an off-night.

 

Edgar being smaller than his opponents counts for something, but I'm not sure it counts for more than the speed advantage Edgar has over LWs because he's smaller than them or the cardio advantage because he doesn't cut much, if any, weight. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

 

And all this is not even factoring in Cruz, who's been doing the same thing as Edgar, beating guys with relatively soft, precise striking through speed and footwork, except Cruz has looked a lot more dominant doing it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Edgar. I just think the case could probably be made after these last two fights that he's the weakest current UFC champion. Dramatic come-from-behind wins are exciting and fun, but the very best champions tend to not put themselves into situations where they need to come from behind.

[Daffanka]

Aldo's been beating up guys who couldn't hack it at 155 in the UFC though. I mean, I get your point, he's looked like the physical manifestation of violence in most of his fights but I think competition counts for something and Edgar's fighting in the toughest division.

 

Pound for pound rankings are pretty silly and, yes, Edgar is the champion on most brittle ground but that's because of how ridiculously good lightweight is, not because he's less of a fighter than Aldo. If Edgar does get beat I really, really want to see him drop down and fight Aldo because that fight would be awesome.

[OldStingberg]

Aldo's been beating up guys who couldn't hack it at 155 in the UFC though.

BJ Penn and Sean Sherk both dropped down to LW after being unsuccessful at WW. Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing Mark Hominick to BJ Penn, I'm just saying you can't just discredit a guy simply because they've dropped down.

 

Plus, it's worth noting that the reason that Aldo is beating someone like Hominick is because he already absolutely tore through the consensus top of the FW division.

 

...but I think competition counts for something and Edgar's fighting in the toughest division.

I would seriously disagree with this. I think there's no way it's tougher than WW or LHW. One thing I've noticed, though, is people tend to discount a division once it gets sorted out. This is especially prevalent right now with the perception of the LHW division. For a couple years most people agreed that was the deepest division. But now that Jones has come through destroying everyone, suddenly a lot of people are talking about it as being shallow. The same fighters are still there, but because there's now a guy that's clearly at the top, the division gets discounted.

 

I think the LW division is kind of the opposite right now. Since there's so many unresolved matchups, people perceive it to be deep and tough. But I just don't think there's any way Maynard, Melendez, Bendo, Guida, and Miller stack up against Rashad, Machida, Shogun, Rampage, and Hendo or Fitch, Condit, Diaz, Koscheck, and Shields.

 

If Edgar does get beat I really, really want to see him drop down and fight Aldo because that fight would be awesome.

Yeah, that would be a fun fight. It would also give some much-needed exposure for the FW division, which is probably why Dana is pushing for it.

[VTial]

Pound for pound rankings are pretty silly

 

...especially when it's based around achievements.

 

I think what's more notable in the P4P debate is the intangibles these two guys bring. Forget weight classes.

 

Aldo is stylistically built for Edgar. He has enough power in his kicks that he doesn't have to abuse them and open himself for the take down.

 

Edgar is stylistically built to eliminate Aldo in the later rounds. The guy learns round for round. It's like he can gameplan a more dangerous plan the more he loses.

 

This is what's going to come down to the wire if these two ever faces.

 

Aldo silenced the LW dropping down issue with his win over Florian. (A guy who has never had trouble/losses against a smaller fighter except Aldo especially in grappling.)

 

Edgar silenced his lack of power by showing a grit and determination Florian never showed in his championship fights. He's basically drawing up the reality of what Florian could have done to capitalize on his championship bouts (Sure Kenny isn't as fast but man oh man...the way Edgar fights back from 10-8 rounds...)

 

If I were the UFC, I'd put this bout immediately before some of the contenders upset the champions. This would be a great co-main event for Sonnen/Silva 2 and they could easily make both LW and FW more popular with a bout like this and fix both the legitimacy of Aldo and Edgar. (Aldo loses to Edgar and he's the BJ of FW. Edgar loses to Aldo and FW is no slouch while LW proves size isn't the factor alone.)

 

For a couple years most people agreed that was the deepest division. But now that Jones has come through destroying everyone' date=' suddenly a lot of people are talking about it as being shallow. The same fighters are still there, but because there's now a guy that's clearly at the top, the division gets discounted.[/quote']

 

It's just a bunch of people jumping the gun. The LHW situation is irrelevant in terms of talking about deepest because

 

1) Jones hasn't cleaned out the division much less had a rematch with his nemesis and it looks like he's taking on Machida on short notice

 

2) The LHW depth reputation wasn't based on skills but on named marquee fighters. The complete opposite of LW.

 

3) If Jones does prove that the LHW is shallow, it's only because he's set to be top 5 all time. LW on the other hand, broke any myth that it isn't deep via having an underdog like Edgar beat a guy like BJ when it looks like he was a step above everyone in that decision.

 

On the flip side though: LW's depth was predicated on BJ and Florian and people not being sure if Sherk was totally going to abandon his wrestling. Right now it's not as deep but the problem is, it's become the WW division. Too many superior well rounded wrestlers that bring different styles of wrestling to the table and everyone of those at the top are workhorses that bring as much insane pace as FW grappling-wise.

[Daffanka]

BJ Penn and Sean Sherk both dropped down to LW after being unsuccessful at WW. Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing Mark Hominick to BJ Penn, I'm just saying you can't just discredit a guy simply because they've dropped down.

 

Sherk only lost to Hughes and GSP, BJ went 1-1 with Hughes and had a super close fight with GSP which isn't what I'd call unsuccessful.

 

Plus, it's worth noting that the reason that Aldo is beating someone like Hominick is because he already absolutely tore through the consensus top of the FW division.

 

The consensus top of the FW division was Brown who's been floundering and maybe Urijah. I don't think either of those guys stack up against Penn or Maynard. Florian was the biggest win of Aldo's career.

 

I would seriously disagree with this. I think there's no way it's tougher than WW or LHW. One thing I've noticed, though, is people tend to discount a division once it gets sorted out. This is especially prevalent right now with the perception of the LHW division. For a couple years most people agreed that was the deepest division. But now that Jones has come through destroying everyone, suddenly a lot of people are talking about it as being shallow. The same fighters are still there, but because there's now a guy that's clearly at the top, the division gets discounted.

 

I'm not discounting LHW and WW because they have dominant champions, I'm discounting them because they don't have the vast amount of very good, well rounded fighters that lightweight does. Both of those divisions get murky after the top 5-10 whereas you could feasibly make a top 25 lightweight list without running out of good fighters. It's impossible to rise up as a lightweight without being very good because you're fighting very good fighters on such a regular basis.

 

I think the LW division is kind of the opposite right now. Since there's so many unresolved matchups, people perceive it to be deep and tough. But I just don't think there's any way Maynard, Melendez, Bendo, Guida, and Miller stack up against Rashad, Machida, Shogun, Rampage, and Hendo or Fitch, Condit, Diaz, Koscheck, and Shields.

 

I really think they do, I'm not going to pick apart any specific example but all the guys you listed from those divisions apart from Fitch and maybe Rashad have fairly clearly defined weaknesses. Whereas apart from Guida it's hard to pick holes in any top lightweight.

 

e: This post came off as way too confrontational. Sorry about that!

[damonster]

Chael Sonnen makes Joe Rogan look like Jon Fitch when it comes to talking.

[brashleyholland]

I've grown to really hate the 'P4P debate' over the last couple of years...If you think it sucks debating it with a few people on a forum (even one largely populated by reasonable people like this one), try writing a P4P list (and 7 weight class rankings) for a site that gets a couple of million visits a month. My inbox turns into a dumping ground for the wrath of the internet once a month when our P4P rankings go up.

 

Everyone hates them, yet they're one of the most-read things on the site.

 

So yeah, I'm not a fan of P4P, so without debating what anyone has said, and were you to put a gun to my head, I'd put both Edgar and Cruz above Aldo at the moment.

 

My way of thinking is this: Aldo has been made to look human in his last few fights. Cruz on the other hand has been all over most of his recent opponents. Yes, Edgar got wrecked in the first round of his last two fights, but his efforts in coming back from the brink mean more in my eyes than Aldo getting past Hominick and Florian.

 

So I guess our list next month will look something like...

 

Silva

St Pierre

Jones

Edgar

Cruz

Aldo

Fitch

Henderson

Evans

Velasquez

[brashleyholland]

Also Sonnen's post fight interview was the best non-fighting thing I've seen in a cage ever.

 

I'm so glad that he's offered Anderson Silva the next shot at the middleweight belt.

[ampulator]

I've grown to really hate the 'P4P debate' over the last couple of years...If you think it sucks debating it with a few people on a forum (even one largely populated by reasonable people like this one), try writing a P4P list (and 7 weight class rankings) for a site that gets a couple of million visits a month. My inbox turns into a dumping ground for the wrath of the internet once a month when our P4P rankings go up.

 

Everyone hates them, yet they're one of the most-read things on the site.

 

So yeah, I'm not a fan of P4P, so without debating what anyone has said, and were you to put a gun to my head, I'd put both Edgar and Cruz above Aldo at the moment.

 

My way of thinking is this: Aldo has been made to look human in his last few fights. Cruz on the other hand has been all over most of his recent opponents. Yes, Edgar got wrecked in the first round of his last two fights, but his efforts in coming back from the brink mean more in my eyes than Aldo getting past Hominick and Florian.

 

So I guess our list next month will look something like...

 

Silva

St Pierre

Jones

Edgar

Cruz

Aldo

Fitch

Henderson

Evans

Velasquez

I think people need to recognize the P4P rankings for what they are-as long as no one can agree on what matters, AND what matters more, when it comes to P4P, none of us will ever agree on who the P4P is. We must all agree on what P4P is before we can decide on who P4P is.

 

In any case, your list looks fine to me, except it's sort of odd to have both Henderson and Fitch, considering you... well, I, wouldn't use the same criteria for one as you do for the other. Fitch grinds out decisions-Hendo, at least these days, goes for the KO punch. That's not say I think you are wrong-I don't, it's just hard to see them both on the same list for the same reasons.

[brashleyholland]

In any case, your list looks fine to me, except it's sort of odd to have both Henderson and Fitch, considering you... well, I, wouldn't use the same criteria for one as you do for the other. Fitch grinds out decisions-Hendo, at least these days, goes for the KO punch. That's not say I think you are wrong-I don't, it's just hard to see them both on the same list for the same reasons.

 

I don't really have any set criteria, lol. Fitch is up there because he doesn't lose to anyone that isn't a slightly effeminate French-Canadian in hot pants. Hendo is up there because, well, he's Hendo, winning fights in three weight classes at 40 years old.

 

Honestly, P4P is just something we do because people demand it. It's time I could spend doing something more productive, like arranging all my Transformers in a massive battle scene in the kitchen to annoy the Mrs when she comes home from work to cook dinner. I don't take it seriously, is what I'm saying :-p

 

Any combination of Silva, GSP and Jones (used to be Fedor) goes in the top three spots, Edgar, Cruz and Aldo vie for 4-6 and we've had everyone from BJ Penn, Jake Shields, Miguel Torres and Lyoto Machida in the remaining spots over the past couple of years.

 

Here's an interesting one: How do people feel about women in the P4P debate? As of right now, there's nobody I'd consider worthy, but if you're saying "all things being equal, who is more talented than who" could you argue that the likes of Cris Cyborg (straight after the Carano/Coenen wins) or Megumi Fujii (prior to the Frausto "loss") deserved a spot?

[Daffanka]

If the women get p4p spots then I think you should start looking at the super heavyweights too because the level of competition is roughly the same.