The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[ampulator]

Being Brazilian certainly doesn't help, but a guy like Shogun does relatively well because he actually seems to care about the fans. Anderson, on the other hand, won't speak English in public despite reportedly being quite good at it, he takes entire fights off at times, and he refuses to apologize for wasting people's money when he takes fights off. He acts like fans are a nuisance that he just has to deal with, and not surprisingly, that hasn't won him a ton of fans.

 

And I'm not saying he should kowtow to fans or anything. If he wants to be the way he is, fine. But no one should be surprised if people don't want to get behind him and pay money for each of his fights.

I think you are not including that Shogun had a lot of PRIDE fans... Silva didn't. Silva didn't get big until he was in the UFC.

[bigtplaystew]

Am I reading this conversation under the assumption that Silva doesn't draw? Because I always thought he did. UFC doesn't officially release their PPV buyrates usually so I can't really prove or disprove that statement. But he headlines PPVs that seemingly do very well. Dana said on Opie and Anthony that if he wasn't such a huge star that he'd have fired him after the Demian Maia incident.

[OldStingberg]

Am I reading this conversation under the assumption that Silva doesn't draw? Because I always thought he did. UFC doesn't officially release their PPV buyrates usually so I can't really prove or disprove that statement. But he headlines PPVs that seemingly do very well. Dana said on Opie and Anthony that if he wasn't such a huge star that he'd have fired him after the Demian Maia incident.

 

Anderson was a notoriously bad draw for a while. It all sort of culminated when his title defense against Cote at UFC 90, Anderson's eighth fight in the UFC, got something like 300,000 buys, which is pretty much the rock bottom number of buys any UFC PPV can get.

 

Since then, Anderson's been the most protected fighter in terms of draw in probably the UFC's history.

 

-UFC 97 was co-mained by Liddell/Shogun.

-UFC 101 saw Anderson in the co-main with the Penn/Florian title fight in the main event.

-UFC 112 had the Penn/Edgar title fight in the co-main.

-UFC 117 had Fitch/Alves, JDS/Roy Nelson, and Hughes and Guida on the card.

-UFC 126 had Forrest/Franklin in the co-main and Bones/Bader.

-UFC 134 had Forrest/Shogun and Big Nog/Schaub.

 

Every single one of Anderson's last six fights have had either a second title fight on the card or at least one of the UFC's most popular fighters on the card as well. You won't see an Anderson card co-mained by Struve/McCorkle or even Mir/Carwin.

[ampulator]

I do concede that he isn't the biggest draw... but hey, he was fighting Cote, and Cote was never a draw himself.

[bigtplaystew]

You know what, OSB? You made a compelling argument without throwing BS numbers around. I like your style. I concede that I was wrong in assuming Silva can draw.

 

Good game.

[brashleyholland]

I think you are not including that Shogun had a lot of PRIDE fans... Silva didn't. Silva didn't get big until he was in the UFC.

 

There's no real evidence to suggest that Pride fans buy PPV's though. Pride's PPV's were doing something abysmal like 20,000 buys in the US. That was some time ago and I think they were delayed a day or so (not 100% on that though) but its still a shockingly low number.

 

There wasn't a big pop in buyrates for his first UFC appearance; in fact, it only did 24k more buys than the Bisping vs Evans PPV two months later, which was widely regarded as the worst PPV main event/card churned out by the UFC to that point. And this was at the hight of Shoguns popularity amongst Pride fans, when people were literally fearing for Forrest Griffin's safety. Lol, I remember Sherdog imploding when that one went down :-p

[brashleyholland]

So there's some interesting stuff that's been going down with K-1 over the past couple of days.

 

- Over the past few weeks, Simon Rutz (head of It's Showtime) has said that his fighters will not participate in the K-1 WGP until he is paid at least the $400,000 they are owed in fighter purses. (He's also allegedly owed on other contracts to the tune of over $1mil).

 

- Rutz had set a deadline of sometime last week for K-1 to pay up, and it passed. He extended it, and that passed.

 

- A couple of days ago, a Dutch blog revealed that K-1 had offered packages to certain fighters to secure their participation. If fighters agreed to the terms, they would have money owed transferred immediately. The catch? They would waive the legal right to 50% of the money owed...

 

- Rutz has said today (Friday) that unless K-1 transfer the money by close of business, it's not going to happen. (The 'Final 16' is in two weeks time). He told me earlier that they didn't come through, and that fans should look to the 'It's Showtime' event in Jan for their HW kickboxing fix. It's Showtime have ramped up their advertising for that card today.

 

What does it mean then? Essentially, unless K-1 pull a miricle (and by that I mean a ton of money) out of their hat over the next few days, we'll see one of two things. 1) No WGP this year (Boo, although it will make the value of the signed poster I have of last year's much more valuable, lol) or 2) A massively, massively watered down tournament that will be an insult to the memory of the ones that crowned Aerts, Hug, Hoost et al champions over the years.

 

Crazy thought: If they go with a weak field of fighters, Kyotaro could actually be in with a chance of becoming the first Japanese fighter to win the WGP!

[ampulator]

There's no real evidence to suggest that Pride fans buy PPV's though. Pride's PPV's were doing something abysmal like 20,000 buys in the US. That was some time ago and I think they were delayed a day or so (not 100% on that though) but its still a shockingly low number.

 

There wasn't a big pop in buyrates for his first UFC appearance; in fact, it only did 24k more buys than the Bisping vs Evans PPV two months later, which was widely regarded as the worst PPV main event/card churned out by the UFC to that point. And this was at the hight of Shoguns popularity amongst Pride fans, when people were literally fearing for Forrest Griffin's safety. Lol, I remember Sherdog imploding when that one went down :-p

What I mean is, PRIDE fans from the USA were hip to Shogun, and they weren't hip to Anderson Silva (at least back then). On top of that, at least initially, Shogun had more popularity than Anderson Silva did.

 

OldStingBerg claimed that Shogun is more popular than Silva-I'm not so sure that is the case, and I'm not sure it was the case back then, but I would concede it was possibility it was back then. He also Shogun is more "fan-friendly", I"m not sure that's the case. He's a pretty shy guy like Anderson Silva is.

 

Not everyone is going to be Wanerlei Silva or Vitor Belfort in terms of fan-friendliness: he had an exciting style, a bad-ass demeanor in-ring, but a nice easy-going outgoing personality outside of it, who also happens to have a decent command of English.

 

I get the sense that Anderson Silva stopped wanting to fight a long time ago-he's actually older than the Nogueira brothers, Wanderlei Silva, and Vitor Belfort, though only by one or two years.

[OldStingberg]

OldStingBerg claimed that Shogun is more popular than Silva-I'm not so sure that is the case, and I'm not sure it was the case back then, but I would concede it was possibility it was back then.

I didn't quite say that. I said Shogun does relatively well. By that I mean he's more popular than his UFC resume would otherwise suggest because he seems to care about the fans.

 

Conversely, Anderson is less popular than his UFC resume would suggest because he treats the fans as a nuisance.

 

Anderson might be more popular than Shogun overall, but that would be because of the difference in their UFC resumes.

 

He also Shogun is more "fan-friendly", I"m not sure that's the case. He's a pretty shy guy like Anderson Silva is.

That I definitely said, or implied, and I don't think it's all that controversial. I'm not sure Anderson's all that shy. When he's in his comfort zone, which seems to be any time he's not dealing with American media or fans, he seems pretty gregarious. Shogun is definitely a bit shy, but he still makes an effort, and fans have taken notice.

[bigtplaystew]

Neither Rua nor Silva really strike me as "shy". They are from another country so they dont get as much US press as the american fighters do. Since, ya know, they dont talk our language. But I cant call either guy shy. Rua is somewhat reserved for such a tough dude. But he gets out there and says what he's gotta say.

 

Silva is actually quite the opposite of "shy" if you ask me. He's been quite outspoken on certain issues. And in the cage he's actually gotta a rep for being more than a little arrogant.

[VTial]

Silva not being a draw really isn't his problem. MWs have a tough time getting credibility.

 

It didn't help that Silva sliced through Rich like Cyborg against Carano and Rich moved up and had a less than stellar career losing to a perceived as weak and demotivated Forrest on top of struggling against a nearly retired Liddell.

 

LHW had Couture and Liddell and even though they were past their prime anyway, Couture helped pad Machida and Liddell helped pad Shogun.

 

The same can be said for the other divisions. Faber helped pad Brown and Kenny helped pad Aldo. Hughes helped pad GSP and GSP's dominance against elite wrestlers helped pad the AKA wrestlers in Fitch and Koscheck and in turn fighters avoiding them to get to the title fight against GSP helped make WW looked stronger and LW was the BJ Penn show until he helped pad Edgar.

 

Take Rich away from Silva and his biggest fights in the UFC are Leben, Sonnen, Forrest and Hendo.

 

Leben was by far the most exciting fight Silva had even edging past Rich but Leben can never have a consistent streak which made him always look weaker than the top rankers. (Even Leben vs. Belfort would be a toss up considering "short notice Leben" just submitted Akiyama and Belfort would truly have to test his hands yet because of Leben's losses to guys like Stann and Bisping he's underrated.)

 

Forrest and Hendo disappointed.

 

On top of that, Silva versus many ground fighters were disappointing.

 

Plus, Okami, Marquardt and Hendo were disappointing not just because of Silva but because of how those three seemingly gave away their chances especially Hendo.

 

Cheat or not, Sonnen is the only fighter (except Leben who legitimately gave his chin away in the 1st Silva fight) who calls out Silva without flip flopping when the actual fighting starts to happen and his streak is the most legitimate among Silva challengers even edging out Rich's streak as a champion. There is no other MW currently who has gone through Okami, Marquardt, Miller and Filho except for Sonnen. That's just an uncanny resume. Sonnen might as well be tied with Silva as the #1 fighter stylistically because both guys excel at their disciplines and the losses Sonnen had was through aggression where as the wins Silva had against the grapplers were through taking advantage of their lack of wrestling and committing to a boring fight. The first fight truly was a showcase between the two best fighters in the division one opting to be exciting while the other opted to stay as a champion and even if you take Sonnen's trash talking out of the equation, there's no better candidate right now for Silva because of all of the disappointments of the other MWs whether it's Bisping fighting like an effective Kalib Starnes and yet not getting to Machida level and struggling against Wandy, whether it's Leben losing yet to another fight because he fights so randomly, whether it's Munoz' wrestling not translating well, whether it's Paul Harris' Filho like moments, whether it's Maia's inability to engage with Anderson, whether it's Okami's mental disappointment at not being able to mimic Sonnen, whether it's Marquardt's worse than Sonnen's elevated testosterone problems... every one of these guys from a performance perspective disappointed way more than Sonnen and on top of this, Sonnen showed improved BJJ positioning against Stann.

 

The facts are just there. Sonnen is the most deserving candidate. His trash talking just made the fight more exciting. Everything else and it's because the other MW contenders had more disappointing in-Octagon performances which was why Stann was tasked with facing Sonnen in the first place because he was the second most exciting fighter to face Silva post-Okami. This and this is the only reason why Silva is a poorer draw. It has nothing to do with the way he treats his fans. It has nothing to do with his dominance. Jon Jones brings the same elements to his fights at LHW and he's considered a draw. Silva's problems are how his opponent comes in with stupid gameplans (or gasses himself out as with the case with Lutter when he finally took down Silva). If you book enough of those fights, it always makes the winner less exciting to watch no matter how you sell him as the most dominant fighter in the world.

 

There is one exception though. If Forrest had struggled less against Silva then Anderson's draw would have been a lot more consistent right after that. That was as close as a LHW vs. MW title fight that Anderson had and everyone was expecting the intelligent Forrest to come and instead the Griffin that fought simply made everyone remember how stupid almost everyone of Anderson's opponents had been whether it was Rich trying MT on him or whatever Cote was trying to do or how Maia blew his surprise Chonan-like submission on Sonnen while trying to charge Anderson and every other multiple incidents that Anderson's opponents have done to make MW look weaker. Even Okami's disappointing loss helps boost Anderson's popularity currently because people miss watching Anderson beating opponents with semi-decent gameplans and fight IQ.

[ampulator]

I know BrasheyHolland said something about this, but honestly, if you think about it there's huge gap of talent between LHW and WW, and between LW and BW. Here's what I mean:

 

HW: Not so loaded with talent compared to any other division, but hey, it's heavyweight.

LHW: Loaded with talent

MW: Has lots of talent, but not quite enough (certainly not enough to challenge Silva)

WW: Loaded with talent, but champ is so good, he makes every other contender look like burnt toast

LW: The most loaded division in the World

FW: Not so loaded with talent

BW: Loaded with talent, some of which are more likely Flyweights so good they could beat BW's and FW's.

 

I think it might an issue of some LHW's either unable (or unwilling) to go MW for whatever reason (pride, difficulty). Seriously, cutting weight sucks, and no matter how you look at it, you ARE cutting an extra 20 pounds. If Shogun had more consistent cardio, he should have been (though I'm doubtful it can happen today) able to cut to 185, as Lyoto Machida, before bulked up a bit.

 

(On a related note, Demian Maia, before he bulked up, said he used to cut from 190, and that he could have cut to 170 in the past, if he wanted to. Now he cuts from 205, though. Personally, I would have rather seen him at Welterweight instead of bulking up and cutting down again, but I guess it's moot now.)

[bigtplaystew]

I like that you mentioned it's difficult to make a 20 pound weight cut. Lots of MMA fans take this for granted. That's not easy to do.

 

I'd like to see more fighters fight at their natural weight. I feel it gives you a much more "game" fighter that can reach deep into his reserves if he has to. I'm not saying every fighter is Frankie Edgar, who seems to have something special when it comes to recovery and toughness, but I do think guys would look and feel better if they weren't making these massive cuts.

 

But then Rashad had said once on Opie and Anthony that he likes cutting weight. He's been doing it forever and he feels light and hungry after he makes the 205 cut and that's how he likes to feel in a fight.

[VTial]

I know BrasheyHolland said something about this, but honestly, if you think about it there's huge gap of talent between LHW and WW, and between LW and BW. Here's what I mean:

 

HW: Not so loaded with talent compared to any other division, but hey, it's heavyweight.

LHW: Loaded with talent

MW: Has lots of talent, but not quite enough (certainly not enough to challenge Silva)

WW: Loaded with talent, but champ is so good, he makes every other contender look like burnt toast

LW: The most loaded division in the World

FW: Not so loaded with talent

BW: Loaded with talent, some of which are more likely Flyweights so good they could beat BW's and FW's.

 

I think it might an issue of some LHW's either unable (or unwilling) to go MW for whatever reason (pride, difficulty). Seriously, cutting weight sucks, and no matter how you look at it, you ARE cutting an extra 20 pounds. If Shogun had more consistent cardio, he should have been (though I'm doubtful it can happen today) able to cut to 185, as Lyoto Machida, before bulked up a bit.

 

(On a related note, Demian Maia, before he bulked up, said he used to cut from 190, and that he could have cut to 170 in the past, if he wanted to. Now he cuts from 205, though. Personally, I would have rather seen him at Welterweight instead of bulking up and cutting down again, but I guess it's moot now.)

 

That's the often told story but really if you look at the talent gap, it's less about the divisions being weak as many fans just underrate talent.

 

Ellenberger is a perfect example of someone people omitted even when he was originally set up to fight Fitch.

 

In reverse, Story got overhyped simply for trying to challenge Fitch.

 

Lots of these events happening but very many fans still overlooking these things and often looking too far out of the UFC.

 

The truth is the gap with GSP was plugged up by Serra.

 

The gap with Anderson was nearly plugged up by a wrestler with poor sub defense in Sonnen.

 

The gap in HW was plugged up by Cain dominating Brock.

 

The gap in LW was plugged up by underdog Frankie Edgar edging out BJ.

 

The gap in FW was plugged up first by Brown and then later on Aldo.

 

The gap in BW was plugged up with whoever beats Miguel Torres nowadays.

 

The gap in LHW was plugged up by Jon Jones going through two perceived as dominant and in their prime champs in Rampage and Shogun. (Setting aside how fickle fans ignore both Page and Shogun's dominance pre-Jones)

 

I think MW is just the riskiest division. It's by far the most well rounded division who's greatest weakness is of having top ranked fighters not having any definitive strength until Sonnen, Silva and Belfort. Leben would have come close if he polished up his striking.

 

This holds true for grapplers like Maia too. In MW, Maia like Akiyama can improve their striking with less worry because there's no true problematic striker except for Belfort and Silva. Sure Sonnen can out-technique you a couple of times and Leben can hit a hail mary and Marquardt can unleash a kick from nowhere but not alot of truly world class athletes with a primary strength except for Silva.

 

Then there's Silva of course. In other divisions, you can gauge your opponent based on how you rose through the rankings and how difficult it is. In MW, you have decent success like Stann and you immediately get fed to the wolves. The worse part about it is that you're lucky to get Sonnen. Often times they just rush you to Silva who is the worst of the champions to be rushed to. There's just no reward. In contrast:

 

LW: BJ has cardio issues and the ones who beat BJ like Edgar has size issues. Even Gray came close if he didn't choke. Same thing with Florian. Those are guys that have multiple styles but at least the level of competition prepares you for the champ.

 

WW: Fitch is GSP 2. Even better, thanks to Fitch being a bad draw, you can instantly get GSP, lost to GSP and then build yourself up for a rematch by fighting against the Fitches and the Kos.

 

LHW: Painful division clearly but guess what? Look at how far Forrest and Jardine got from simply taking on tough fights. High risk, high name value.

 

FW/BW: Weaker divisions

 

HW: Dangerous division but look at the competition below Mir. Most of those guys can be overrated and you can easily get in the top 10s.

 

MW is by far the worst division ever since Rich dominated. Everyone knew he was one of the weaker champions even for his time but then when Silva came, before you get to Silva, you have to have insane TDD and Sub Defense and then when you get to Silva - BAM! You're supposed to face a world class striker. How does anyone really expect to survive that divison? Even Belfort with all his talent is scared to fight anyone but Silva and Sonnen literally broke the mold of well rounded guys edging each other out until the winner gets Silva.

[ampulator]

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. My point isn't a gap between a champion and the other fighters in his weight class, I'm saying there's gap of talent Between weight classes. There's simply not a lot of fighters that fight at MW or FW right now. It's sort of odd, because there's a ton of fighters at WW or BW, both which are lower than MW and FW, respectively.

 

I like that you mentioned it's difficult to make a 20 pound weight cut. Lots of MMA fans take this for granted. That's not easy to do.

 

I'd like to see more fighters fight at their natural weight. I feel it gives you a much more "game" fighter that can reach deep into his reserves if he has to. I'm not saying every fighter is Frankie Edgar, who seems to have something special when it comes to recovery and toughness, but I do think guys would look and feel better if they weren't making these massive cuts.

 

But then Rashad had said once on Opie and Anthony that he likes cutting weight. He's been doing it forever and he feels light and hungry after he makes the 205 cut and that's how he likes to feel in a fight.

 

Here's the thing, though. Maia chose to bulk and cut to stay at Middlweight, rather than simply cut to Welterweight. Looking at his frame, it doesn't look like that bad of cut (at least before). People who cut too much would be a guy like Rumble Johnson, who CLEARLY shouldn't be fighting at Welterweight. He barely makes the cut.

[bigtplaystew]

Yea, Amp. I hear what you are saying. That's why I mentioned Rashad who feels better with the cut apparently. But yes Rumble should be moved up. Kenny looked emaciated at 145. I think 155 is a much better weight for him.

[damonster]

UFC 3 heavyweight roster released today. http://espn.go.com/espn/thelife/videogames/blog/_/name/thegamer/id/7115160/heavyweights?readmore=fullstory

 

No meathead

[Fantabulous]

GSP is out of the Condit fight due to a knee injury. Penn/Diaz is the new main event with GSP/Condit being rescheduled for when GSP is healed.

 

Fu...

[The Shape]

Dang. Probably will still watch it live but I REALLY hope they make Penn/Diaz 5 rounds now. Having that as a 3rd main event and Munoz/Leben 5 a week later would just be crap.

 

Worst thing is, if Diaz wins he has a huge case for the title shot again. No idea who he'd fight next.

[brashleyholland]

Dang. Probably will still watch it live but I REALLY hope they make Penn/Diaz 5 rounds now. Having that as a 3rd main event and Munoz/Leben 5 a week later would just be crap.

 

I don't. It's not fair on the fighters who have trained for a 3 round fight. At that level everything is a fine science; you train in a certain way to peak at a certain time, so asking someone to nearly double their amount of athletic output time is a big ask.

 

Cheap move by Diaz' camp if you ask me. There's no way Penn can come out of it looking good. Diaz' biggest asset is his cardio, so Penn has to either put himself at risk in that respect, or look like a coward in the eyes of the majority of fans who don't know any better by turning it down. Typical Cesar Gracie douchebag move :-p

 

Worst thing is, if Diaz wins he has a huge case for the title shot again. No idea who he'd fight next.

 

If GSP could return before the end of the year, and Diaz won emphatically/quickly, I wouldn't be massively surprised to see him leapfrog Condit into a title fight. They REALLY need Lesnar and GSP to fight in 2011 to up the PPV averages, but at this point, they've probably written it off.

 

But lets say Diaz wins and Condit still fights GSP early next year. I guess the only fight that makes sense for Diaz in the meantime is Koscheck. Terrible fight for Diaz though.

[brashleyholland]

Pride versions of Mark Coleman and Heath Herring have been confirmed for UFC Undisputed 3.

[The Shape]

But lets say Diaz wins and Condit still fights GSP early next year. I guess the only fight that makes sense for Diaz in the meantime is Koscheck. Terrible fight for Diaz though.

 

Exactly, the thought of that is worrying me already xD

[Fantabulous]

I

If GSP could return before the end of the year, and Diaz won emphatically/quickly, I wouldn't be massively surprised to see him leapfrog Condit into a title fight. They REALLY need Lesnar and GSP to fight in 2011 to up the PPV averages, but at this point, they've probably written it off.

 

But lets say Diaz wins and Condit still fights GSP early next year. I guess the only fight that makes sense for Diaz in the meantime is Koscheck. Terrible fight for Diaz though.

 

The way I've read it, GSP is probably going to be able to fight in late November and they'll do GSP/Condit then. If Diaz wins emphatically, I presume they'll do GSP/Diaz as early as possible so there is a chance of GSP fighting twice in 2012 and boost the PPV numbers. Koscheck/Diaz would be a terrible fight for Diaz so I would endorse it happening as soon as possible.

 

Presumably, the winners of GSP/Condit and Diaz/Penn face off next year. Would the losers then face off? What happens to Koscheck? A rematch with Diego Sanchez? When does Sanchez get back in the game?

[ampulator]

I don't. It's not fair on the fighters who have trained for a 3 round fight. At that level everything is a fine science; you train in a certain way to peak at a certain time, so asking someone to nearly double their amount of athletic output time is a big ask.

 

Cheap move by Diaz' camp if you ask me. There's no way Penn can come out of it looking good. Diaz' biggest asset is his cardio, so Penn has to either put himself at risk in that respect, or look like a coward in the eyes of the majority of fans who don't know any better by turning it down. Typical Cesar Gracie douchebag move :-p

 

 

 

If GSP could return before the end of the year, and Diaz won emphatically/quickly, I wouldn't be massively surprised to see him leapfrog Condit into a title fight. They REALLY need Lesnar and GSP to fight in 2011 to up the PPV averages, but at this point, they've probably written it off.

 

But lets say Diaz wins and Condit still fights GSP early next year. I guess the only fight that makes sense for Diaz in the meantime is Koscheck. Terrible fight for Diaz though.

I completely agree; however, if Penn finishes Diaz within 3 rounds, then the ones that come out looking like fools are them.

[damonster]

I think if jones beats machida and is healthy enough we will se jones and Evans coach the first season of tuf on fox.