ampulator Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Fantabulous" data-cite="Fantabulous" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I picked Mir over Velasquez for a number of reasons. Mir is probably not quite a top-level fighter, but he's dangerous enough that he can beat any guy who isn't top-level or smart enough to work the perfect gameplan. I don't think Mir gets the credit for how good he is because he got destroyed by Lesnar, a poor style match-up for him, and he couldn't finish off Nelson, who himself is a fighter who doesn't get the credit his abilities deserve. Mir can take some serious shots and still be a threat as well, which adds to what he brings to the table. With Velasquez, and this might just be a hunch, but I'm not convinced he's overcome what I call the Hamed Effect, the effect that first loss does to your psyche. Some guys go undefeated, sometimes for a long time, and when they take the first big loss is just breaks them. They just can't handle defeat and they're never the same. I'm not saying Velasquez has it as bad as Naseem did, but I'm not sure he's sufficiently overcome it, especially when it comes to facing a guy like Mir who will put him under a lot of pressure. I think Mir is going to shock a lot of people and finish Velasquez in the second or third round and I'll go one further and pick Mir to beat Dos Santos/Overeem for the Heavyweight title.</p></div></blockquote><p> Mir can't take a shot. If he gets hit well enough, he goes down. If you give time to recover, he will, but if you don't, he's down for the count.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffanka Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Fantabulous" data-cite="Fantabulous" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I picked Mir over Velasquez for a number of reasons. Mir is probably not quite a top-level fighter, but he's dangerous enough that he can beat any guy who isn't top-level or smart enough to work the perfect gameplan. I don't think Mir gets the credit for how good he is because he got destroyed by Lesnar, a poor style match-up for him, and he couldn't finish off Nelson, who himself is a fighter who doesn't get the credit his abilities deserve. Mir can take some serious shots and still be a threat as well, which adds to what he brings to the table. With Velasquez, and this might just be a hunch, but I'm not convinced he's overcome what I call the Hamed Effect, the effect that first loss does to your psyche. Some guys go undefeated, sometimes for a long time, and when they take the first big loss is just breaks them. They just can't handle defeat and they're never the same. I'm not saying Velasquez has it as bad as Naseem did, but I'm not sure he's sufficiently overcome it, especially when it comes to facing a guy like Mir who will put him under a lot of pressure. I think Mir is going to shock a lot of people and finish Velasquez in the second or third round and I'll go one further and pick Mir to beat Dos Santos/Overeem for the Heavyweight title.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't Mir is as much "good" as he is "dangerous". He's got a really nasty set of skills that let him, given the right circumstances, end a fight very quickly. But certain kinds of fighters - Pe De Pano, Lesnar in their second fight, Carwin, in my opinion Velasquez - don't give him those opportunities because of Mir's inability to control his opponent and recover from a good shot.</p><p> </p><p> And Velasquez is probably the last fighter I'd think would be broken after a loss.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoutureLegend Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <p>To be honest i don't really pay much attention to the Velasquez/Dos Santos fight or the result of it, because if that fight never had the whole pressure of being the UFC mainstream debut on FOX then both Velasquez & Dos Santos would have pulled out.</p><p> </p><p> Neither were in any shape to be fighting that night & were essentially forced to stay on the card because of the magnitude of the occasion.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Target Practice Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <p>I'm still very much unconvinced with regards to Velasquez. The only really notable name on his record in my eyes is Big Nog. The fact that he struggled with Kongo, who isn't really all that much more than a gatekeeper for the division, is an example of that for me.</p><p> </p><p> Don't get me wrong, I still think he's got massive potential, but I'm still waiting to see how he fares against more high-level opposition before I put myself in the Velasquez camp. <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Target Practice" data-cite="Target Practice" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm still very much unconvinced with regards to Velasquez. The only really notable name on his record in my eyes is Big Nog. The fact that he struggled with Kongo, who isn't really all that much more than a gatekeeper for the division, is an example of that for me.<p> </p><p> Don't get me wrong, I still think he's got massive potential, but I'm still waiting to see how he fares against more high-level opposition before I put myself in the Velasquez camp. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p></div></blockquote><p> That's a completely legitimate and fair point, one I can't dispute. But my problem isn't Velasquez weaknesses or possible weaknesses, it's Mir's obvious weaknesses. He's been KOed quite a few times already, he can't handle a flurry of punches (Lesnar, Carwin), and despite ability to recover, his chin isn't that good, you just have to keep hitting him in the face (see Big Nog fight).</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Target Practice Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <p>Oh yeah, Mir definitely has a questionable chin. I can't say I've ever really noticed his issues with inability to control opponents, but the last time I saw him on the underside of an opponent was the Lesnar fight, and for all Brock's weaknesses as a Mixed Martial Artist, I can't think of two many guys who are more fearsome than him in top position, so I can't really fault Mir for getting dominated there.</p><p> Of course, I've said several times before, I'm still a new-ish fan of the sport, and there are others who have seen a lot more of him than me, so I'll bow to superior knowledge there.</p><p> </p><p> As for the matchup, it's interesting. I think that despite his dodgy chin, Mir has an underrated striking game, and I think there are enough questions about Cain's chin to make the standup interesting. The ground will be where the real meat and bones of the fight are though - Mir won't want to spend much time on the bottom, but he only needs a couple of seconds to take a limb home with him.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I don't think Mir's chin is quite as suspect as people are making out. He's been rocked by people who throw very heavy fists, the kind that would, and have, give anybody trouble. Velasquez, I don't think, has that kind of power in his punches. Sure, if you let Velasquez swarm you, he'll do damage, but I think Mir can stop that and I don't see Velasquez having the power or technique to break through. What I would like to see is the fight get into a ground battle, because we've never seen what Velasquez is like defending submissions and we've never really heard people talk about that part of his game, which may be an indication it's not that sharp, and against a guy like Mir it could be a fatal weakness. You've all made good points about the fight but I'm still picking Mir to upset the odds and finish Velasquez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonster Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Target Practice" data-cite="Target Practice" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm still very much unconvinced with regards to Velasquez. The only really notable name on his record in my eyes is Big Nog. The fact that he struggled with Kongo, who isn't really all that much more than a gatekeeper for the division, is an example of that for me.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> yeah, but the Big Nog one was a big victory for him.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="damonster" data-cite="damonster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>yeah, but the Big Nog one was a big victory for him.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't think it means a lot to KO Big Nog. Beat him on the ground like Mir did? Yeah, that's something. But outboxing Big Nog is like outboxing an octogenarian.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonster Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Fantabulous" data-cite="Fantabulous" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't think it means a lot to KO Big Nog. Beat him on the ground like Mir did? Yeah, that's something. But outboxing Big Nog is like outboxing an octogenarian.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> only person to KO Big Nog is Cain, which in my opponion is great.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoNdOn Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="damonster" data-cite="damonster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>only person to KO Big Nog is Cain, which in my opponion is great.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Mir TKO'd him.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonster Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="LoNdOn" data-cite="LoNdOn" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Mir TKO'd him.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> yeah, but didn't ko him.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Fantabulous" data-cite="Fantabulous" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't think Mir's chin is quite as suspect as people are making out. He's been rocked by people who throw very heavy fists, the kind that would, and have, give anybody trouble. Velasquez, I don't think, has that kind of power in his punches. Sure, if you let Velasquez swarm you, he'll do damage, but I think Mir can stop that and I don't see Velasquez having the power or technique to break through. What I would like to see is the fight get into a ground battle, because we've never seen what Velasquez is like defending submissions and we've never really heard people talk about that part of his game, which may be an indication it's not that sharp, and against a guy like Mir it could be a fatal weakness. You've all made good points about the fight but I'm still picking Mir to upset the odds and finish Velasquez.</div></blockquote><p> It's not like Big Nog had heavy hands. And he did the next closest thing to KO to Mir in their fight. If he had kept punching, or even just attacking Mir's body, I think there would have been a good chance that Herb would have stopped the fight. </p><p> </p><p> And it's not merely heavy hands that takes down Mir. He has never been One hit KOed. It takes a flurry of punches to KO Mir. And Velasquez definitely has the hand speed and GnP technique to do that to Mir. </p><p> </p><p> Two, I'm not trying to dissuade you from picking Mir. I could care less if you actually hated Mir more than Velasquez, but picked him over Velasquez anyway. It doesn't matter. What matters is Velasquez fits the bill on how to beat Mir, sans Heavy Hands. Mir doesn't take flurries well-it's how Carwin and Brock beat him, and it's how Big Nog near KOed him. That being said, I'm not too sure on Velasquez's chin either. It's just that he has crazy will and ability to recover-like Mir, if you give him time to recover, he will. You just can't let up.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 <p>Anyone watch TUF Brazil? Some quality fights to start the season. Couple of very undersized guys on there, but then so did the first few seasons of regular TUF. </p><p> </p><p> You can watch it for free anywhere outside of Brazil <a href="http://www.ufc.com/tuf-brasil-episode-1" rel="external nofollow"><strong>here</strong></a>.</p><p> </p><p> Last fight is a war. Highlight of the show for me was Marc Goddard 'encouraging' a fighter to put his gum shield back in...oh, and this...</p><p> </p><p> <span>http://cdn1.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/3496939/WANDERLEI_large.jpg</span></p><p> </p><p> Unfortunately the names of the four finalists are already out - released by a rival TV network. Oops.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I saw that earlier today. The first few fights were really exciting. I was expecting Goddard to lose it with the fighter who didn't want to put his mouth guard back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Target Practice Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Ooh, excellent. Bookmarked - I'd been looking forward to this, those Brazilians sure know how to bring it. <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Looking at Vitor and Wandy, it's hard to believe they are the same age and started around the same time. It's a miracle to me, despite all Vitor has been through, he's still in pretty good shape, while Wandy is close to being done. It boggles my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonster Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Looking at Vitor and Wandy, it's hard to believe they are the same age and started around the same time. It's a miracle to me, despite all Vitor has been through, he's still in pretty good shape, while Wandy is close to being done. It boggles my mind.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> i think for Wandy it is all of his wars, as for Vitor he finishes his opponent quickly and has not been in as many wars as Wandy.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="damonster" data-cite="damonster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>i think for Wandy it is all of his wars, as for Vitor he finishes his opponent quickly and has not been in as many wars as Wandy.</div></blockquote><p> That's a good point, but how did Vitor avoid those Wars? If you look at his record, especially during his time when his sister was kidnapped, he has a fair number of losses, while Wandy's more recent. </p><p> </p><p> But just watched TUF Brazil-the mouthpiece falling out was hilarious. The other fighter was encouraging the other putting it in. Did they put the wrong mouth piece (each other's) in? Is that why he was reluctant?</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 Looking at Vitor and Wandy, it's hard to believe they are the same age and started around the same time. It's a miracle to me, despite all Vitor has been through, he's still in pretty good shape, while Wandy is close to being done. It boggles my mind. The fact that Vitor has had 30 pro MMA fights, while Wand has packed in nearly 50 into the same space of time, counts for a lot. Another big thing is the way both guys trained over the years. It's no secret that the Chute Boxe Academy was not the most forgiving of places to train back when the likes of Wand, Pele and Ninja were in their primes. Their 'gym wars' are the stuff of legend; fighting - not sparring - to a knock out/TKO was common practise. Sure, it made animals out of a few of their guys, but at what cost? Shogun has struggled with injures since his early 20's. Wand is falling to bits, Pele (for me one of the greatest of all time) never even made it to the big show due in part to his injury problems. I had a sit down with Ninja prior to his fight with Tom Watson last year...the guy is close to brain damage in my opinion. Slurred speech, nerve twitches, blinking eyes, inability to focus...all the signs are there. Also (and I'm going to word this very carefully as I've already been done for liable once in the past 12 months, lol) consider Wand's fight schedule, physical appearance and brutal training regime back in his Pride days...then consider what someone might do to maintain and recover from such activities...see where I'm going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 All fair points, BH. I can't dispute that. But where was Vitor's main training then? He looks a lot fresh than a lot of Brazilians of his time, with the exception of Anderson Silva (who may or may not be falling apart soon himself, if you listen to the rumors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 That's a good point, but how did Vitor avoid those Wars? If you look at his record, especially during his time when his sister was kidnapped, he has a fair number of losses, while Wandy's more recent. But just watched TUF Brazil-the mouthpiece falling out was hilarious. The other fighter was encouraging the other putting it in. Did they put the wrong mouth piece (each other's) in? Is that why he was reluctant? Nah. Spitting your gum shield out is an old time-wasting trick. Often a referee will halt the action to get it washed out before it goes back in a fighters mouth, which can take a few seconds. I've even seen a corner 'drop' a gum shield outside the ring while they were washing it, just to give their guy an extra few seconds. Godders was having none of it, the dude had already been warned for letting it hang out and Marc knew exactly what he was up to. While we're on the subject, I think Marc is one of, if not the best, referee in MMA at the moment. The UK may still be some way behind the US in terms of our training, but in Marc, Leon Roberts and 'Granite' Grant Waterman, we're definitely up there when it comes to officiating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 My Favorite Marc Goddard moment: Tossing out a fan that got into the ring during a British UFC event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 All fair points, BH. I can't dispute that. But where was Vitor's main training then? He looks a lot fresh than a lot of Brazilians of his time, with the exception of Anderson Silva (who may or may not be falling apart soon himself, if you listen to the rumors). Vitor has trained all over the place. He spent a lot of his early career with Carlson Gracie, then BTT, which started as an offshoot of the Carlson Gracie Academy. He's spent a lot of time over the past few years at Xtreme Couture. He came to the US at a very young age, he never really had the Vale Tudo experience/training that a lot of Brazilian fighters of his era had. Interesting fact: Belfort is more famous in Brazil for being married to TV star/model Joana Prado. I guess that makes him a Brazilian version of Alex Reid, albeit one that can actually fight, and whose wife/girlfriend is a million times hotter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 My Favorite Marc Goddard moment: Tossing out a fan that got into the ring during a British UFC event. My favourite Marc Goddard moment: Listening to him describe in great detail what he'd have done to Joe Rogan if he tried to pull a Mazagatti on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.