bigtplaystew Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Well whats the definition of "world class" if Werdum isn't it? He's one of the top 10 ranked HW in the world in most trusted polls. On MMA Weekly and sherdog, he's top 5. To me, that's a world class MMA fighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Well whats the definition of "world class" if Werdum isn't it? He's one of the top 10 ranked HW in the world in most trusted polls. On MMA Weekly and sherdog, he's top 5. To me, that's a world class MMA fighter. Rankings are subjective... but to be fair, maybe he he is a "world-class" "heavyweight", considering how there isn't a lot of Heavyweights. As a MMA fighter, overall, though, I don't think he's not that good. He's definitely dangerous on the ground, but that's about it. If you look at it comparatively, he's the Demian Maia of his division. I wouldn't say either of them are "world-class" - just great BJJ fighters. "World-class" is just hyperbole to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 You can think he's not that good all you want to. That's personal opinion, but Werdum's one of the top fighters in his weight class despite what you or I think. I personally think he's a bit overrated myself but he's a world class MMA fighter. It's ok. You can say it without the quotes. Also, I don't have a problem with Herb Dean as a ref. Rosenthaal is more likely to let a fight continue, and he's one of my personal favorites to see in there during a big fight. But Dean is solid. He's a sound decision maker and he protects the fighters. There's been a couple early stoppages, but he's way better than most of the crappy MMA refs out there. Mazagotti and Mergliotta would have been fired from any other job for sheer incompetancy if they performed as bad at that as they do at MMA reffing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 You can think he's not that good all you want to. That's personal opinion, but Werdum's one of the top fighters in his weight class despite what you or I think. You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying he isn't one of the top fighters in his weight class. He is. But despite that, he's a great BJJ practioner, and not that good of a MMA fighter. Deos that mean it's still possible that he's one of top fighters in his class? Yes, but it's only because the division isn't comparatively as strong as other divisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 So you agreed with me in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 So you agreed with me in the first place? Yes, but only partially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 LOL Werdum is a world class MMA fighter. Regardless of opinion. We both think he's overrated, but that doesn't matter. He's a top ranked fighter which makes him, "world class". /end argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 LOL Werdum is a world class MMA fighter. Regardless of opinion. We both think he's overrated, but that doesn't matter. He's a top ranked fighter which makes him, "world class". /end argument There's where I disagree. Just because he's top ranked, doesn't mean he's "world class". "World-class" is hyperbole anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I have no idea what you are even talking about anymore. World Class isn't something you just get to make up definitions for. It simply means he's ranked among the best in the world. If you don't believe me, here's what the rest of society deems the phrase world class to mean: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/world-class http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/world-class So sorry it doesn't meet "your" definition of world class, but you can't just make up your own definition to an english phrase that means something to the rest of the english speaking population. The dude has stood with some of the best fighters of his day and is one of the best HW fighting currently, wether you agree or not doesn't really matter as he's ranked among the best in the world in every trusted publication in the sport. I'd ask you to explain yourself further but I don't think I even wanna read anymore of this drivel. My original point was that Werdum's probably the best fighter Reem's fought in awhile and he made Reem look kinda bad. Even though Reem won, it was in very disappointing fashion and it left lots of doubts in fans' minds about him. A UFC run would have been something the fans wanted and would have been in Reem's best interest for his legacy. I think if he goes to Titan Fighting Championships or something like that, it'll help a smaller company but it won't help his position among the best HW in the world. He is a top level fighter and deserves to be fighting the best. He should be making a run at Cain Velasquez not Bobby Lashley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 "World-class" would the Pound-for-Pound list. As far as I know, I don't think he is any brand name PFP lists. In fact, I don't think there are any Heavyweights on the PFP lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 This battle of symantics is silly. He's world class among heavyweights and you and everyone else who reads properly knows this is what I meant and that it's 100% true. So I'm gonna go ahead and end this silly crap. You win. I provided two reasonable definitions of the phrase "world class" for you yet you continue to re-define it however you wish to see a dumb argument go your way. So now I concede and you win. Are you satisfied? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 This battle of symantics is silly. He's world class among heavyweights and you and everyone else who reads properly knows this is what I meant and that it's 100% true. So I'm gonna go ahead and end this silly crap. You win. I provided two reasonable definitions of the phrase "world class" for you yet you continue to re-define it however you wish to see a dumb argument go your way. So now I concede and you win. Are you satisfied? No, because I actually like debating with you. Come on, don't stop here... unless you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 HAHA it's just that I'm being forced to defend a fighter I'm not a fan of. I really don't care for Werdum. I respect him, but he's not one of my favorite fighters. I think he's boring and his UFC run was less than spectacular. But he's still one of the top guys at his weight despite what Amp, I, or anyone else thinks. That's what rankings do. They aren't the be-all-end-all but they generally give a good idea of who should be placed where based on who they've fought and how they beat them. This takes your love or hate of a guy out of it and tries to rank him where he should be based on wins, losses, level of competition, and admittedly (but to a lesser degree) popularity. Now Sherdog and MMAWeekly have Werdum at #4 and #5 respectively. I don't think he's really that high. I'd have him after some UFC guys that have also lost recently, but it is what it is. Even if he shouldn't be top-5... he's clearly top 10 and most likely right now the best HW in strikeforce now that Reem is gone and Fedor is past his prime. So I can't do it anymore lol. I can't sit here and talk abotu Werdum like he's amazing. He's not amazing, but he's a top heavyweight regardless of our opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffanka Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Well world class is a very loose definition, but in my mind a world class fighter is someone with overwhelming strengths and no big flaws in their game. Werdum's jits is bananas but if he can't get to the clinch - or get takedowns from the clinch - he's really crippled and is forced to either shoot from way outside or try his guard pull routine. His striking isn't as bad as it once was but it's not going to win him very many fights. Heavyweight is a very special division because (relatively speaking) you don't need to be that good to be a top 10 guy or in the mix or whatever definition you want to use. The only elite fighters without big flaws in the heavyweight division right now are Cain and dos Santos and both are still fairly untested, which is another symptom of the heavyweights as it's damn near impossible to consistently fight good fighters with how thin the division is. Compare it to the lightweights where the division is bristling with really, really good fighters who fight each other all the time and where we know much more about the fighters because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Yeah, Werdum has too many areas of his game that aren't too hot to be considered a world class fighter. Sure, he's 'ranked' high but a high ranking doesn't always mean the fighter is world class in talent. It's a rather obvious statement but no surprise to see who doesn't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 It's a rather obvious statement but no surprise to see who doesn't get it. Well I'm glad you decided to resort to taking a cheap shot at me personally. Very classy. But it is fairly obvious what the phrase "world class" means and it isn't up to interpretation. We agree on that. More to the point. World Class doesnt mean any of the following things: 1) Best p4p ONLY 2) No holes in his game (so no one is world class except for GSP and Anderson I guess) 3) Not good enough in the opinions of message board posters I shouldn't have to explain this anymore to people who can read and understand English. "Blue" doesnt mean "Red" because you THINK it does. You dont get to sit back and redefine words to make a point on a message board. Sorry. Phrases aren't up to your personal interpetation. They mean what they mean. It was obviously a poor choice of words for the audience that was going to read it due to (I really dont know why) serious confusion on the subject. But a highly ranked fighter in his weight class is a world class fighter. Regardless of what any of you (including me) think about the guy. And if you can break out of the UFC IS EVERYTHING world then you should understand that there are probably hundreds to thousands of heavyweights fighting professional mixed martial arts today. To be ranked among your weight class at fifth, or even in the top ten, makes you a world class fighter. This isn't open to interpretation. If you can find a definition of the phrase that means that a fighter must be complete in all areas of his game, undefeated, or anything else crazy that has been mentioned please do so and I'll be wrong. Besides, in context, it is PLAINLY OBVIOUS to anyone who can read what I was saying. I'm embarassed that I have to continue to reiterate this point without the phrase in question so that all of us can understand in very plain language: Reem hadn't fought many good fighters in the past few years. He did in Werdum. Werdum made him look less than spectacular. Reem should be fighting in the UFC because it's what fans want to see and it's what would best cement his legacy as one of the best HW that fought while he was active Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 What did you think of the fight, BH? Honestly speaking, it doesn't look Fedor is that much bigger than Dan Henderson these days. Feijao looked bigger (if not taller) than Fedor. It was bittersweet...I've been following the careers of both these guys for a long time now, Fedor nearly a decade and Hendo since his first UFC appearance which was...(checks wiki)...damn, 13 years ago. Thankfully it was a great fight, good bit of back and forth action and a crazy "It's all over...no it isn't...NOW it's all over" ending. Top notch drama for sure. Size wise there was what, 16lbs or something between them on the scales? Not a huge amount of difference, and as we saw Fedor wasn't really able to use any kind of size advantage anyway. Anyone calling that an early stoppage wants their head checking btw...if a fighter gets hit so hard that he goes limp and face-plants (even if it's only for a second) then any ref who doesn't stop it is being irresponsible, simple as that. Herb is respected amongst referees world wide as the best in the business right now..I completely agree, with Grant Waterman a close second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Yea it was a great fight. I had no problem with the stoppage either. I agree completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 The reaction from Fedor fans to this loss may be the most mind boggling and remarkable reaction in ages. I've seen some long, passionate diatribes from people convinced beyond doubt the fight was fixed, that Fedor was screwed by a paid off referee and this is a dark day for MMA. It really does amaze me that people are so hell bent on believing Fedor to be unbeatable that they're coming up with so many wild conspiracy theories to explain away his defeats. What is it about Fedor that has some people so completely unwilling to accept that he got beaten? As for MMA referees, I think the UFC generally have a good crew they get to use and are all good at their job. Although, how Steve Mazzagatti is still around I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 how Steve Mazzagatti is still around I don't know. agreed. Him and Mergliotta are extremely bad at their jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffanka Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 world class] I dunno, I don't think being a top 10 guy in the weakest weight class in MMA necessarily makes you a world class fighter if we look at it through a broader scope that encompasses all the other weight classes. But let's drop it because semantics are silly. Reading Fedor threads on the Sherdog forums has been tremendously enjoyable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 Reading Fedor threads on the Sherdog forums has been tremendously enjoyable. I literally don't bother with Sherdog MMA forums anymore. I honestly don't see the point. Just had a quick peep for hilarities sake...I genuinely feel stupider for doing do :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 It was bittersweet...I've been following the careers of both these guys for a long time now, Fedor nearly a decade and Hendo since his first UFC appearance which was...(checks wiki)...damn, 13 years ago. Thankfully it was a great fight, good bit of back and forth action and a crazy "It's all over...no it isn't...NOW it's all over" ending. Top notch drama for sure. Size wise there was what, 16lbs or something between them on the scales? Not a huge amount of difference, and as we saw Fedor wasn't really able to use any kind of size advantage anyway. Anyone calling that an early stoppage wants their head checking btw...if a fighter gets hit so hard that he goes limp and face-plants (even if it's only for a second) then any ref who doesn't stop it is being irresponsible, simple as that. Herb is respected amongst referees world wide as the best in the business right now..I completely agree, with Grant Waterman a close second. Fedor has many wholes in his game, but his biggest issue is gameplanning, if you ask me. If he "swings" for the fences against a boxer like Dos Santos, who has good boxing footwork and good/decent takedown defense, then he's going to get KO'ed standing. And If Henderson can outwrestle Fedor, than Cain can easily outwrestle him. Fedor relies too much on the power in his hands and not enough on his Sambo and Judo. As for Herb, it looked a bit "off" until I took a second look. I am 90% sure he made the right call. I would have done the same thing in his situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted August 2, 2011 Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 Just had a hint dropped to me by someone that is not normally wrong that depending on what happens this weekend, Dan Henderson is being looked at as a potential opponent for the winner of Shogun vs Griffin 2 as a number one contender fight, possibly in December. Also heard the interesting little nugget that Franklin vs Bonnar/Little Nog could happen as the co-main event of UFC 138 in the UK. Wouldn't mind that at all! Little Nog is one of my all time favs, and I haven't seen him fight live. I actually booked a trip to Japan for the 2005 GP finals in part to see him fight (also for Fedor vs Cro Cop, which was the biggest fight in MMA at the time). The Critical Countdown fight between Rogerio and Shogun is one of my favourite bouts of all time, yet it's also the reason I ended up travelling to the other side of the planet and not seeing Little Nog fight. Swings and roundabouts. That whole trip was a mix of awesome and depressing now that I think about it. No Nogueira, Wand lost a grinding decision to Arona that stopped his 18-fight LHW unbeaten run, Tank Abbott (one of the first NHB guys I got into in the 90's) was humiliated (infact, every time I've seen Tank fight live he's lost) and Roman Zentzov, a Russian fighter that I expect none of you have heard of but who I know quite well, was tapped in short order by some WORLD CLASS heavyweight guy. On the plus side I got to eat a ton of sushi and shabu-shabu, meet Igor Vovchanchyn for the third time and see Shogun cap off what I consider to be the best Grand Prix run in Pride history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted August 2, 2011 Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 Good to see that the spirit of Mr Perfect is still alive and well http://ironforgesiron.com/2011/08/video-can-you-say-perfect-plex/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.