Wherein We Argue Over Numbers

[1PWfan]

 

However, there's no way you'l convince me that Randy Orton is on any Upper Midcarder on SWF, let alone Main Eventer (aside from Marat Khozlov)

 

I don't really know Orton to be honest: I've seen a few of his matches but they don't stick in my head much (he's neither a pure brawler or high flier, which are the two styles I really enjoy). Having said that, he never seemed that bad to me: not sure who's in the SWF main event for a relative comparison, but I'd put him in the C's and D's in brawling and technical, with lower aerial skills and maybe a low submissions. He's good at most things but not great, with high-ish star quality and C to C+ mic skills.

[Comradebot]

Proof Cena has beastly power:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Y5iwK4S20

[ampulator]

You just reminded me how much smaller Mark Henry is now. But yeah, his power is around A to A*. No doubts about that.

[Comradebot]

Okay, soooo...

 

Different worker:

 

Mr. Anderson

 

 

Is there any doubt he's easily the best promo guy currently in TNA, argueably in the business? It's been since HHH and The Rock in the Attitude Era that a heel was so awesome in my mind that I couldn't help but cheer for him, despite the fact that as a heel you're not really suppossed to.

 

Okay, maybe he's not THE best (its probably Jericho), and obviously his Safety stat isn't the best (stupid Orton), but c'mon... amazing microphone work, no?

[1PWfan]

Not sure about that one. A to A* charisma, no question, but I think his mic skills may be a bit lower- he has a tendency to wander off topic or just be daft, which I've always fitted under mic skills. Maybe a B- or B? Not low as he's awesome, but noticeably lower than his charisma.

[lazorbeak]

And lazorbeak, "making a bad comparison"? That's your opinion. I thought I made a good one. If you want to ignore, no one is stopping you. But don't state that as fact when it's an opinion. Obviously I'm not only one think that's a good comparison.

 

I already explained why it was a broken comparison though, and it's not all that different from what you said in the following paragraph. Again, it's not just my opinion, it's a comparison of workers with completely different styles almost 20 years apart that ignores the changes in the business and the fact that Cena and Warrior didn't get over the same way, as has already been pointed out by others. Ultimate Warrior's not a good comparison because he was a top guy for a brief period in a time when his ability to deliver a promo had nothing to do with the success or failure of his promotion. You can give Warrior a D+ in mic skills and it won't cause the same problems and it actually will reflect reality in that Warrior found himself sliding down the card pretty quickly (although mic skills was far from the only reason).

 

But honestly, why do you even care if you've essentially given up the point upon which the comparison was founded?

 

Besides, I think Remianen already pretty much settled it. The gist of is "Sure, you can book Orton and Cena correctly if they have lower entertaiment skills, and whether that's correct or not, can the AI do it?" The answer is... well, no. They AI can't do it. That belies the point whether the entertainment skills are accurate or not, because the AI, unlike the real life WWE, won't book them accurately as main eventers, and they might fall from the main eventer stats in six months, which is even more innaccurate. So, even if I believed the entertainment stats are accurate for Cena and Orton... it won't produce accurate results in terms of where their card placement would be. That's good enough answer to me.

 

I'm pretty sure I said that pages ago, but no big deal.

[Rick Savant]

I'm just going to ignore the stuff that misses the point completely. Someone else made a bad comparison: I'm not sure why you're bound and determined to prove that bad comparison's merit?

 

That's fine, if you don't have any reasoning behind saying the comparison is bad other than the reasons I already refuted we can move on.

 

WRONG-o! What I mean to say is you have an opinion that is not a fair evaluation of a person or their work but a BIAS against what they've done because you personally don't enjoy it, to the exclusion of the mountains of evidence to the contrary. Here's a better definition of bias:

 

"Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology, or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective."

 

Basically I'm saying you're letting your own dislike of a person's work prevent you from being objective. AKA bias. "I don't like John Cena, therefore he's bad" may be an opinion, but it's an opinion that doesn't hold any water because the conclusion makes no sense and flat out ignores all evidence to the contrary. Hence, bias.

 

Hrm if only I could find someone articulate enough to punch a hole in that argument...

 

it's certainly true that wrestling ability is subjective,

 

Well there's a start. So with that in mind let's look at your argument:

 

What I mean to say is you have an opinion that is not a fair evaluation of a person or their work but a BIAS against what they've done because you personally don't enjoy it

 

So what we have here is you are saying that I'm biased for thinking that something that is subjective (by your own admission) is good or bad based on my perception of it. Interesting use of the word. And not quite in line with the definition that you submitted that says bias hinges on that "the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective." Well we've already discussed how I can't be prejudiced on the matter as we're in the middle of it and there's plenty of data. Impartiality is moot in a discussion about subjective perception and the third... oh. That's embarrassing.

 

I don't refer to my own "bias" because my "opinion" isn't formed solely through my own emotional reactions but through a logical process that incorporates opinions that aren't mine as well as extrinsic evidence.

 

I actually lolled. Do I get points if I spot an irony? At any rate thank you for proving my point on bias.

 

What are the methods? I freaking listed my reasoning earlier in this very thread! Again, since I am looking at extrinsic evidence, comparing against the C-Verse, looking at Adam Ryland's own interpretation of the data, and looking to things determined by the wrestling media that I have nothing to do with,

 

Well you do have to do with some aspects of it, now don't you?

 

And, by (poo) rolling downhill, what I mean is if you give Cena a 72 in charisma, what do you give to the guys that actually deserve to be in that category?

 

So while someone like Orton would have very good charisma, because his promos aren't great (although they have improved from where they were a few years ago), he would have lower mic skills. Which is why Warrior would have great charisma but not great mic skills. Although on the other hand, Warrior had his own "insane person" charm on the mic that was hard to ignore.

 

I am pretty much the definition of objectivity on this one.

 

Moving on, you've listed a great deal of reasons (some relevant, some not) as to why John Cena and Randy orton should be charismatic. I realize it gets confusing having an argument with so many people, but I have never said either of them were not charismatic. I'm assuming this is the evidence you're referring to. I said John Cena is bad at wrestling. You have given me no reason to believe otherwise than that you can list other people who disagree with me. I'm aware other people disagree with me. I have a 9 year old cousin.

 

What I absolutely do not get is how people on the internet, when presented with evidence, can respond with NO EVIDENCE and then act shocked and appalled that their opinion isn't treated with equal weight. Seriously this is how you build an argument.

 

Hrmmm I sometimes wonder that too about people on the internet... But I should be clear: I am neither shocked nor appalled that you do not give my argument equal weight. That seems within character from what I've seen so far... you could even say it is a predictable bias that you have. But here: Let's try and get you back to reality. Maybe I can make a mod for you to play to remind you what it's like? You have offered no evidence as to Cena's in ring abilities, which I might remind you, is what we're talking about. To be fair this isn't entirely your fault as...

 

it's certainly true that wrestling ability is subjective,

 

So it's kind of hard to bring up evidence. But if you want I'll start the evidence sharing:

There you go. Of course since you, apparently, see good wrestling when you watch that, I guess we're stuck.

 

I'm not telling you how to think

 

You should practice clarifying that.

 

but I am telling you based on numerous facts listed previously as well as some insightful posts made by others that I believe you are unequivocally wrong in your evaluation of Cena.

 

I'm totally gonna start copping your trick. We'll, I've proved with an indisputable army of evidence and a letter from God that I am more handsome than you. I have also proved I am a millionaire and that my evaluation of Cena is correct. [You seem to be bad at getting morals so I'll make this one clear: You can't just say you've presented facts when you have not.]

 

And deep down, if you didn't think something was wrong, you probably wouldn't have posted on the thread that the AI was unable to accurately sim the world because of the data you gave it. So I don't think you being wrong about this is that extreme a conclusion.

 

Well if you misunderstood my initial post I think your conclusion is fine. If you thought my question was "How do I get the AI to keep John Cena over while stripping him of any in ring skills?" Then, yeah, fair enough, John Cena needs to be better to be good in the game. If that's the argument you've been having, then you've been having it by yourself. How you managed to make this mistake is beyond me. What I wanted to know was how to balance the WWE so the AI doesn't run it into the ground. Where by your conclusion is nonsensical. Interestingly enough, if you'd been reading the posts by people who were actually helpful then you'd see that is entirely possible while still reflecting the skill levels of roster as per my perception.

 

Now we're getting into insane delusion territory.

 

You're right. Modding a video game to reflect your perceptions is an insane delusion.

 

I am pretty much the definition of objectivity on this one.

[Comradebot]

Not sure about that one. A to A* charisma, no question, but I think his mic skills may be a bit lower- he has a tendency to wander off topic or just be daft, which I've always fitted under mic skills. Maybe a B- or B? Not low as he's awesome, but noticeably lower than his charisma.

 

I think that's close... still not sure about passing out an A* in charisma, as much as I like him. I mean, there are only 3 in the C-Verse with A* Charisma...

 

Then again, who's to say Anderson isn't one of the threeish in real life with it.

 

There are, however, 16 folks by my count in the CVerse with A charisma!

 

/shrug

 

 

As for his in-ring skills... Anderson is most certainly an "Entertainer" style worker... that's about all I can think of right now. Probably someone I shouldn't touch too heavily, as I'm a huge fan and will either inflate his stats or make them too low when I overcompensate for my bias.

[lazorbeak]

Okay, soooo...

 

Different worker:

 

Mr. Anderson

 

 

Is there any doubt he's easily the best promo guy currently in TNA, argueably in the business? It's been since HHH and The Rock in the Attitude Era that a heel was so awesome in my mind that I couldn't help but cheer for him, despite the fact that as a heel you're not really suppossed to.

 

Okay, maybe he's not THE best (its probably Jericho), and obviously his Safety stat isn't the best (stupid Orton), but c'mon... amazing microphone work, no?

 

I haven't seen much TNA in the past few months, but Kennedy's always been very good on the mic. I'd definitely put his mic skills at least an 85, and charisma probably a bit higher. His star quality probably wouldn't be as high as all that though, because while cappy's continuing to call him "Holly" might be an overreaction, his look is a bit on the bland side.

 

Also there's a ton of heels so awesome you can't help but cheer for them since the Attitude era!

[Comradebot]

I haven't seen much TNA in the past few months, but Kennedy's always been very good on the mic. I'd definitely put his mic skills at least an 85, and charisma probably a bit higher. His star quality probably wouldn't be as high as all that though, because while cappy's continuing to call him "Holly" might be an overreaction, his look is a bit on the bland side.

 

Also there's a ton of heels so awesome you can't help but cheer for them since the Attitude era!

 

Eh. Nigel McGuiness, maybe. And of course Scott Steiner, but he's in a league of his own. I personally think Ryland needs to add a "Genetic Freak" alignment specifically for him, as its clear he transcends the boundaries of Heels and Face.

 

That said, there haven't been too many GREAT heels in the last decade. Jericho, Anderson, McGuiness, HHH when he's actually a heel... Oh, CM Punk is AWESOME at it, forgot about him! Still, folks like Orton and Batista have nothing on, say... The Rock or going further back, The Million Dollar Man.

 

And I meant to post this in this thread, not the small questions:

 

This is a very good post.

 

For example: I think Vladimir Kozlov is a far better wrestler than people give him credit for. Yes, in today's product he's rather slow and lacks flash... but at the same time, I firmly believe there's skill there, far more than most guys his size posses. Is he the plus sized Kurt Angle? Hardly. But he uses a good variety of power moves, stiff strikes, and some old school style technical work that you just don't see too often anymore. I think back in the 70s/80s he would've fit in perfectly.

 

Obviously, that becomes hard to translate in terms of his stats in modern mods. High stiffness, maybe C/C+ brawling, some OK puroresu, Dish technical skills, and probably really low flashiness?

 

Not the greatest microphone worker by any stretch, but is OK enough that I can stand to listen to him cut the occaisonal promo

 

Again, I don't feel Kozlov is deserving of the labels people have given him concerning his in-ring abilities, as I think alot of it comes from the fact that he isn't a flashy high flier or chain wrestling machine. Admittingly, he's also not a super duper fantastic worker, just better than most give him credit.

 

But that all comes back to lazorbeak's post: it's all subjective. I'm positive many would give Kozlov truly abyssmal stats.

[lazorbeak]

Edit: TL: DR

 

 

Savant, your ability to ignore evidence and not know what bias is kind of hurts your argument. And for a great deal of my argument I wasn't talking to you, so where's the beef?

[lazorbeak]

Comradebot, while stats are subjective, they're definitely not entirely subjective. Koslov is definitely the type of guy mods tend to underrate because

 

1) he's big and slow, and

2) he's only worked for a company with a low risk, low intensity product

 

A guy like A-Train/Giant Bernard probably would have been given abysmal stats as he's seen as a talentless "monster" because he played a big brute heel most of his WWE run. But unlike Bernard, who works in Japan and would probably be more likely recognized for his skills, Koslov has only worked in WWE. Based on his legit fighting background, his athleticism would be higher than the average big heavyweight and a C/C- in brawling is probably about right.

 

The great thing about TEW is that based on decent top row skills and better than expected athleticism you could think Koslov is a future main eventer, a mistake that's definitely not hard to make since WWE made it in 2008.

[ampulator]

Koslov is working for the wrong company, first and foremost. He has the charisma and star quality of a piece of wood, but his in-ring style would fit in Japan.

[LoganRodzen]

I've never made a RW mod and I never (ever) will even try to. The headaches that must arise from constant modding would probably make me go insane. I have far less patience than the average bear.

 

These are the stats I came up with for Cena (off the top of my head) in comparison to Tommy Cornell... who is the definition of a great all-around wrestler. These are only a FEW stats:

 

Basics:

Cornell - 100%

Cena - 87%

 

Psychology:

Cornell - 100%

Cena - 65%

 

Safety:

Cornell - 90%

Cena - 88%

 

Brawling:

Cornell - 89%

Cena - 87%

 

Puro:

Cornell - 62%

Cena - 10%

 

Hardcore:

Cornell - 68%

Cena - 60%

 

Aerial:

Cornell - 72%

Cena - 42%

 

Flashiness:

Cornell - 36%

Cena - 30%

 

Mat Work:

Cornell - 92%

Cena - 38%

 

Chain Wrestling:

Cornell - 94%

Cena - 30%

 

Submissions:

Cornell - 84%

Cena - 59%

 

Microphone:

Cornell - 86%

Cena - 87%

 

Charisma:

Cornell - 95%

Cena - 90%

 

Acting:

Cornell - 78%

Cena - 82%

 

I wont continue because to do so would be pretty arrogant. Everyone will be biased when it comes to worker skills and these are obviously my biases. I just think people need to be more realistic when they're creating RW mods. They SHOULD consult the CVerse. That handy 'filter' option in the Editor is there for multiple reasons.

 

I think Tommy Cornell could be used as a basis when creating RW workers. The guy is considered the best in the game world and I don't think many (if any) people in the RW are that much better than him when it comes to all-around stats.

[lazorbeak]

I've never made a RW mod and I never (ever) will even try to. The headaches that must arise from constant modding would probably make me go insane. I have far less patience than the average bear.

 

These are the stats I came up with for Cena (off the top of my head) in comparison to Tommy Cornell... who is the definition of a great all-around wrestler. These are only a FEW stats:

 

Basics:

Cornell - 100%

Cena - 87%

 

Psychology:

Cornell - 100%

Cena - 65%

 

Safety:

Cornell - 90%

Cena - 88%

 

Brawling:

Cornell - 89%

Cena - 87%

 

Puro:

Cornell - 62%

Cena - 10%

 

Hardcore:

Cornell - 68%

Cena - 60%

 

Aerial:

Cornell - 72%

Cena - 42%

 

Flashiness:

Cornell - 36%

Cena - 30%

 

Mat Work:

Cornell - 92%

Cena - 38%

 

Chain Wrestling:

Cornell - 94%

Cena - 30%

 

Submissions:

Cornell - 84%

Cena - 59%

 

Microphone:

Cornell - 86%

Cena - 87%

 

Charisma:

Cornell - 95%

Cena - 90%

 

Acting:

Cornell - 78%

Cena - 82%

 

I wont continue because to do so would be pretty arrogant. Everyone will be biased when it comes to worker skills and these are obviously my biases. I just think people need to be more realistic when they're creating RW mods. They SHOULD consult the CVerse. That handy 'filter' option in the Editor is there for multiple reasons.

 

I think Tommy Cornell could be used as a basis when creating RW workers. The guy is considered the best in the game world and I don't think many (if any) people in the RW are that much better than him when it comes to all-around stats.

 

Those are pretty good stats Logan! I think it's always a good idea to use the C-verse as a model, because while these things are subjective, there are measuring sticks. The important thing though is getting positive outcomes. So if every match Cena does on Raw gets an A*, either he or his opponents (probably both) are too highly rated, while if he regularly gets B-s and C+'s, odds are he's underrated.

 

amp: 100% agreed on Koslov. If he goes to Japan I think he could be a big deal based on his amateur background, athleticism and size, but with his performance skills and lack of charisma he's never going to be a star in WWE.

[Master Gilmore]

I've made a sort of mini-mod (not really a mod I guess), and I've created a bunch RW guys at their peaks. Of the three guys who have been debated in this thread, I'm generally settled on:

 

CHARISMA:

Warrior: 92

Cena: 86

Orton: 78

 

MIC SKILLS:

Warrior: 74

Cena: 85

Orton: 82

 

I know a lot of people will disagree with Warrior's mic skills, but I'm curious if there's anything else (or everything) about these stats anyone has a problem with.

[lazorbeak]

That may be a little low for Cena and Orton's "peaks," but it's probably a pretty good number for where they were at when they first broke into the main event.

 

I think Warrior's mic skills are hard to judge because on the one hand they're very... unique but on the other they don't really get a crowd more or less riled up which is ideally what a great promo does. Even at his most alcoholic, a Roddy Piper promo made you want to see him wrestle, even if he was barely forming words.

[Jennie Bomb]

I think that John Cena represents the perfect example of the compromises that need to be made when making a real life mod between realism and playability. To create a John Cena that can play the role the real John Cena does in WWE in a TEW version of WWE requires the mod maker to deviate in a significant manner from an honest reflection of Cena's abilities.

[shawn michaels]

I will be having the last laugh when John Cena finally gets what he deserves. That is all i have to say!

[ampulator]

That sounds... ominous. I'm not sure even his biggest detractors (or who I thought his biggest detractors were) will say that.

[shawn michaels]

Maybe i really am Shawn Michaels and i really hated the fact that i had to job to that...piece of wood, at wrestlemania. People think i didn't want another title run,but back then i was ready for one more.

Or maybe i'm just so sick of the guy that i barely watch the E now because of him and so i hate him that much.

[LoganRodzen]

Maybe i really am Shawn Michaels and i really hated the fact that i had to job to that...piece of wood, at wrestlemania. People think i didn't want another title run,but back then i was ready for one more.

Or maybe i'm just so sick of the guy that i barely watch the E now because of him and so i hate him that much.

 

I really liked him when he first debuted and was on Smackdown. I even liked him when he was US champion. It wasn't until WWE started having him go over guys like Jericho and Angle with a submission finisher that I started hating his guts.

 

When he won at New Years Revolution '06 in the EC I literally threw my hands up and said I was done with WWE for good. McMahon's music hit and Edge came out and won the title. WWE has nobody but themselves to blame for fans resenting him. The way they booked him over established mat wrestlers really pissed me off and I'll never like him again because of it.

[Linsolv]

Maybe i really am Shawn Michaels and i really hated the fact that i had to job to that...piece of wood, at wrestlemania. People think i didn't want another title run,but back then i was ready for one more.

Or maybe i'm just so sick of the guy that i barely watch the E now because of him and so i hate him that much.

 

That's impossible! Shawn Michaels wasn't born in 1982! (tThat would've been hilarious, though. A 2 year old wrestler...)

[shawn michaels]

That's impossible! Shawn Michaels wasn't born in 1982! (tThat would've been hilarious, though. A 2 year old wrestler...)

 

Let's just say that IF i was Shawn, i'd probably use false information, in order to use deniability of certain statements about certain people and certain situations...but hey...i said IF i was him. Of course...i can't confirm or deny it, as you all understand. You all remember the devil's greatest trick, right? But hey...what do i know?

[ampulator]

That's impossible! Shawn Michaels wasn't born in 1982! (tThat would've been hilarious, though. A 2 year old wrestler...)

Thanks to you Linsolv, in my game, Tommy Cornell Jr. will debut sooner than expected.

 

I really liked him when he first debuted and was on Smackdown. I even liked him when he was US champion. It wasn't until WWE started having him go over guys like Jericho and Angle with a submission finisher that I started hating his guts.

 

When he won at New Years Revolution '06 in the EC I literally threw my hands up and said I was done with WWE for good. McMahon's music hit and Edge came out and won the title. WWE has nobody but themselves to blame for fans resenting him. The way they booked him over established mat wrestlers really pissed me off and I'll never like him again because of it.

 

I just pity him now. History is written by the those who remain, and those people will not be the kindest to Cena. A lot of the issues that people have with him isn't even directly related him, but is more the fault of the WWE. I do think they learned their lesson, though, on Cena, in that they should not moon-push people unless they intend those workers to be hated or failed.