Wherein We Argue Over Numbers

[shamelessposer]

This thread is a continuation of the off-topic discussion in "Small questions that don't deserve their own thread."

 

The drift started about here, and if people follow my advice and migrate to this thread then the drift should end somewhere around here.

[shamelessposer]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Actually, a the way the angle system works, it's more based on Overness than other ability... so yes, it's possible to have a C+ in Charisma and get strong reactions if your Overness is high. <p> </p><p> Remember, Ultimate Warrior's mic skills (with good charisma) were total crap, but he managed to get over based on his gimmick AND his overness, AND dominating people in matches. </p><p> </p><p> I can't see Randy Orton and John Cena ever nowadays being lower than C- (probably at least C+) in both Mic and Charisma. Actually, I think it's reasonable to put John Cena around B- in both Mic and Charisma, and Randy B- in Mic skill and C+ in charisma.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think this undervalues Cena and, as much as I dislike him, Orton. Cena's a top face for a global promotion, and he really needs to have a <em>bare minimum</em> B average in entertainment stats to maintain that reputation, and his past performance with the WWE demands at least a B+. He is an entertaining dude, and even when he's booed it's not what would be considered X-Pac Heat. Orton needs at least a B- to stay in his top-ish heel role where he's mostly served as a transitional champion, and could probably do with a B. I'd give him good Charisma and Acting with some lower Mic Skills to represent his weakness in interviews.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<p>X-posted.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I can't see Randy Orton and John Cena ever nowadays being lower than C- (probably at least C+) in both Mic and Charisma. Actually, I think it's reasonable to put John Cena around B- in both Mic and Charisma, and Randy B- in Mic skill and C+ in charisma.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You think it's... <span style="text-decoration:underline;">reasonable</span>... to give two of the top stars in wrestling today around a B- or a C+? Again, Cena has won awards for "best interviews." Randy Orton has connected with the crowd in a huge way. Again, in the C-Verse, a stat like that would mean that literally over a hundred other active workers (in the US alone) would have better charisma than Orton. Some C-Verse workers with better charisma than Orton and equal to Cena include: Randall Hopkirk, Aaron Andrews, American Buffalo, Aristocrat, Brett Biggz, Gargantuan, Honest Frank, Jim Force, Mick Muscles, Remo, and Valiant. Wow, it's like a who's who of the most charismatic workers in the game, right? </p><p> </p><p> Like Remi said earlier: when you nerf guys at the top, it nerfs the entire mod, because (poo) rolls downhill.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think this undervalues Cena and, as much as I dislike him, Orton. Cena's a top face for a global promotion, and he really needs to have a bare minimum B average in entertainment stats to maintain that reputation. Orton needs at least a B- to stay in his top-ish heel role where he's mostly served as a transitional champion.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think this would be closer to realistic, although Orton isn't a heel and he's probably got more momentum than anyone else in the company, so I'd say his charisma at this point would be more in the B+/low A range, with his mic skills still around B-. Cena probably needs a B+ average in entertainment skills to sim properly.</p><p> </p><p> Just for kicks, the last release update of EWR 4.2 gave both Cena and Orton 95's for charisma in December 2002: meaning that Eddie Guerrero, The Rock, Paul Heyman, Ric Flair, and Chris Jericho were the only ones with better charisma.</p>

[ampulator]

<p>I don't. Have you ever used Sean McFly in angles before? His entertainment skills are subpar... but his angles? I get them rated pretty high... with ENTERTAINMENT based. </p><p> </p><p>

If I can do it with Sean McFly, it's sure a heck a lot easier to do with Cena and Orton. </p><p> </p><p>

If you can't get someone even more over when he has above-average entertainment skills but with high enough overness, in angles, you are doing something wrong.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<p>Quoted from you in the other thread:</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm not so sure, actually. Has this been proven without a shadow of the doubt. Didn't WE (and I mean WE) say that Overness rules above all. Seriously, I doubt nerfing (if that's what it really it is, I don't think it is) their entertainment skills affects their angles, I don't see it. Maybe in-ring skills, sure, that I can see, but because Overness isi so dominant in Angles, that in-itself can carry it amoung the casual fans. <p> </p><p> Seriously, look at the Ultimate Warrior's mic skills were terrible. He's proof enough that Overness can carry angle by itself.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> What does Ultimate Warrior have to do with Cena and Orton? Did he get over in the same manner? Did he stay over for the same length of time? Did he cut six minute promos on a weekly basis and still have the crowd excited to see him? Seriously what does a completely spurious comparison about a completely different type of push that took place in a completely different era supposed to prove?</p><p> </p><p> Yes, overness is important in angles, but considering guys in an SE promotion tend to get over based on their ability to connect with fans, and somebody like John Cena is one of the best in the sport at it, I don't see how it even passes the laugh test to suggest that Cena would have a B- in charisma. Again, is the real world so gimped that Randall Hopkirk would be a top guy in WWE? </p><p> </p><p> And, by (poo) rolling downhill, what I mean is if you give Cena a 72 in charisma, what do you give to the guys that actually deserve to be in that category? Or are there a hundred guys with better charisma in wrestling today that just have inexplicably never been able to get anywhere near as over?</p>

[Comradebot]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't. Have you ever used Sean McFly in angles before? His entertainment skills are subpar... but his angles? I get them rated pretty high... with ENTERTAINMENT based. <p> </p><p> If I can do it with Sean McFly, it's sure a heck a lot easier to do with Cena and Orton. </p><p> </p><p> If you can't get someone even more over when he has above-average entertainment skills but with high enough overness, in angles, you are doing something wrong.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think, if anything, this serves as a good arguement as to why someoene like Orton doesn't NEED massive entertainment skills, as being super popular in a popularity based company will mostly negate your lack of ability to cut a promo. Heck, I've had T-Rex cut B and B+ promos with minimum progression in his entertainment skills.</p><p> </p><p> But hey, just because he STILL makes my ears bleed everytime he touches a microphone doesn't mean he doesn't have... something... resembling charisma.</p><p> </p><p> Maybe the Remmy Skye approach? Give him the charisma, but kick the crap out of his microphone skills?</p>

[ampulator]

<p>What the UW have to do with this? We are talking about angles. In terms of angles, it doesn't really matter what they do, as long as the angles get them over. </p><p> </p><p> And the ability to connect with fans does not equal mic skills, or at least always. Look at UW when he started. I hated UW, but I have to say, this dude had a lot of charisma, but he didn't know how to say a lick of it. </p><p> </p><p> And I still hate him.</p><p> </p><p> Remember early Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage promos? Same thing, to lesser degree.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Comradebot" data-cite="Comradebot" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think, if anything, this serves as a good arguement as to why someoene like Orton doesn't NEED massive entertainment skills, as being super popular in a popularity based company will mostly negate your lack of ability to cut a promo. Heck, I've had T-Rex cut B and B+ promos with minimum progression in his entertainment skills.<p> </p><p> But hey, just because he STILL makes my ears bleed everytime he touches a microphone doesn't mean he doesn't have... something... resembling charisma.</p><p> </p><p> Maybe the Remmy Skye approach? Give him the charisma, but kick the crap out of his microphone skills?</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Exactly. I never found the Jeff Hardy, John Morrison, or even D'Lo Brown all that good on the mic. Yet they have incredible charisma. You don't always need to be good on the mic to be good in angles. </p><p> </p><p> In an interview or press conference as an angle, hell yes, you better have good mic skills. But if you are just ranting and raving at the screen (Ultimate Warrior, and I hate to say this, Early Randy Savage), then you just scream the screen and people will cheer. </p><p> </p><p> Seriously, Orton's rub his head like crazy man gestures gets people hot. And that's because it's a good gimmick. You don't the highest of charisma to pull off rubbing your head like a crazy man. </p><p> </p><p> And I don't mind or hate Orton at all.</p>

[BrokenCycle]

I have a feeling that in 2 days this thread will be a gigantic flamebait, and will be closed.

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>What the UW have to do with this? We are talking about angles. In terms of angles, it doesn't really matter what they do, as long as the angles get them over. <p> </p><p> And the ability to connect with fans does not equal mic skills, or at least always. Look at UW when he started. I hated UW, but I have to say, this dude had a lot of charisma, but he didn't know how to say a lick of it. </p><p> </p><p> And I still hate him.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> But again, Warrior worked in a different era where he didn't get over based on angles. He didn't have to warm up a crowd for ten minutes with a live promo. And he was pushed as a beast. Cena and Orton didn't have those luxuries. Neither was booked as an unstoppable monster, and yet both have been main eventers in the biggest wrestling promotion in the world for several years, something Ultimate Warrior never did.</p><p> </p><p> And connecting with fans isn't the same as mic skills, which is why there's different stats for each of them! So while someone like Orton would have very good charisma, because his promos aren't great (although they have improved from where they were a few years ago), he would have lower mic skills. Which is why Warrior would have great charisma but not great mic skills. Although on the other hand, Warrior had his own "insane person" charm on the mic that was hard to ignore.</p><p> </p><p> Edit: Gimmicks don't automatically make you a big star unless you already have the tools to pull it off. You couldn't give the vest, the smokin' skull, and the attitude to Shane Douglas, and it would have probably gotten somewhat over, but not nearly to the same extent. Saying that facial gestures, poses, etc. that get the crowd fired up is due to a worker's gimmick and not charisma doesn't make much sense.</p>

[shamelessposer]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BrokenCycle" data-cite="BrokenCycle" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I have a feeling that in 2 days this thread will be a gigantic flamebait, and will be closed.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Optimism, dude.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>But again, Warrior worked in a different era where he didn't get over based on angles. He didn't have to warm up a crowd for ten minutes with a live promo. And he was pushed as a beast. Cena and Orton didn't have those luxuries. Neither was booked as an unstoppable monster, and yet both have been main eventers in the biggest wrestling promotion in the world for several years, something Ultimate Warrior never did.<p> </p><p> And connecting with fans isn't the same as mic skills, which is why there's different stats for each of them! So while someone like Orton would have very good charisma, because his promos aren't great (although they have improved from where they were a few years ago), he would have lower mic skills. Which is why Warrior would have great charisma but not great mic skills. Although on the other hand, Warrior had his own "insane person" charm on the mic that was hard to ignore.</p><p> </p><p> Edit: Gimmicks don't automatically make you a big star unless you already have the tools to pull it off. You couldn't give the vest, the smokin' skull, and the attitude to Shane Douglas, and it would have probably gotten somewhat over, but not nearly to the same extent. Saying that facial gestures, poses, etc. that get the crowd fired up is due to a worker's gimmick and not charisma doesn't make much sense.</p></div></blockquote><p> See, you and I aren't talking about the same thing then. The game doesn't really care what era it is. And it really doesn't matter An angle is angle. It can based on overness, entertainment, microphone, acting, menace, sex appeal, or even nothing. </p><p> </p><p> In fact, Orton doesn't need to have high mic skills. That's my point. You say he needs it because he will follow on the card eventually. I'm not so sure that's the case. The way the game works is that Overness can clearly carry an angle if the worker's Entertainment skills are decent enough. </p><p> </p><p> And if you look at what ComradeBot has done in dynasties, he's done Sports Entertainment with EWA. He can tell you don't need high Entertainment skills to carry an angle.</p><p> </p><p> Orton can easily have C+ in Charisma and have well-rated angles that are based on entertainment skills, because his overness should be high enough sustain him.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>See, you and I aren't talking about the same thing then. The game doesn't really care what era it is. And it really doesn't matter An angle is angle. It can based on overness, entertainment, microphone, acting, menace, sex appeal, or even nothing. <p> </p><p> In fact, Orton doesn't need to have high mic skills. That's my point. You say he needs it because he will follow on the card eventually. I'm not so sure that's the case. The way the game works is that Overness can clearly carry an angle if the worker's Entertainment skills are decent enough. </p><p> </p><p> And if you look at what ComradeBot has done in dynasties, he's done Sports Entertainment with EWA. He can tell you don't need high Entertainment skills to carry an angle.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My point re: eras is that showing that Warrior got over 20 years ago doesn't mean much today since again, he didn't have to do anything to "raise the crowd's mood" in TEW-speak. </p><p> </p><p> I don't know what you mean by "follow on the card," but keep in mind that sometimes the game is not booked by humans and that sometimes when these machine bookers do their thing part of their decisions re: who to push, who to give the title to, etc., are based in part on stats like charisma. </p><p> </p><p> Yes, you don't need high entertainment skills once you are already over. I think we can all agree on that. But my point is someone like Cena got over in the first place because of his charisma and mic skills, and that your original point, that he should have a B- in charisma, when again, that's about the level Brett Biggz and Randall Hopkirk are at in the C-Verse, was unequivocally wrong. Go back to 2002, and Cena was getting higher ratings in angles than he was over. And it wasn't because of his menace, or his sex appeal. </p><p> </p><p> Once you're pushed as a beast, or the world's greatest wrestler, fine, charisma isn't all that important. But considering Orton and Cena weren't built that way, it's once again completely irrelevant to go "oh I got a good entertainment rating with this guy who has an A in popularity all over the US." </p><p> </p><p> Since I'm talking about stats that are both accurate and reflect the world, Orton and Cena need to be in the upper echelon because it makes the game reflect reality.</p><p> </p><p> Seriously just look at the C-Verse and note how many guys are in the main event of major promotions with charisma of C+ or worse? Now, how many of those <span style="text-decoration:underline;">aren't</span> big strong brutes or world-class wrestling talents? Any? Bueller? Bueller? Now tell me, is Orton a brute or a world-class wrestler?</p>

[ampulator]

<p>Actually, I disagree. I don't dislike Randy Orton at all, but he was pushed as big deal when he came in the WWE, as was John Cena. And they didn't necessarily have the skills back then to reach where they are now. In fact, I would rate them even lower than they are now, but that's a different issue. </p><p> </p><p>

In any case, they got to where they were because: </p><p> </p><p>

1. They were in open matches with people higher in the card them at the beginning</p><p>

2. They beat people higher in the card</p><p>

3. They lost to people higher in the card, but were in again, in open matches, were protected, kept strong, or they dominated</p><p>

4. They dominated people lower on the card when they kept going higher</p><p> </p><p>

This is just "getting someone over the easy way" 101... beating people higher on the card, or have matches with them where they were equals or even dominant. </p><p> </p><p>

I don't really hold this as a mark against them. But this how they pushed them.</p>

[shamelessposer]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Actually, I disagree. I don't dislike Randy Orton at all, but he was pushed as big deal when he came in the WWE, as was John Cena.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Randy Orton came in as a bland, whitebread babyface and took a year to get an angle that wasn't "Golly, I sure hope I can impress the boss." Eventually, management took an interest in him and got him over on the basis of his strengths and some clever production work.</p><p> </p><p> John Cena spent about three weeks as a potential big deal, then got jobbed out a lot, then was in a comedy tag team with Bull Buchanan. He mostly got over through sheer force of will and an ability to rap that no one knew about until he'd been with the company for a few months. Even then, he spent something like two months just feuding with Rikishi.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Actually, I disagree. I don't dislike Randy Orton at all, but he was pushed as big deal when he came in the WWE, as was John Cena. And they didn't necessarily have the skills back then to reach where they are now. In fact, I would rate them even lower than they are now, but that's a different issue. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> What are you disagreeing with? I didn't say they weren't pushed as a big deal? :confused:Or are you legit telling me that you believe John Cena and Randy Orton were booked as monsters? </p><p> </p><p> I feel like this is winding down as your responses are getting increasingly incomprehensible, so I'm going to sum up one more time for posterity.</p><p> </p><p> Reasons to give Cena and Orton solid skills for charisma:</p><p> 1) game balance. If you give them aunduly harsh numbers because you're not a fan it trickles down to where you're giving the Mike Knox's of the world even less than they deserve.</p><p> </p><p> 2) reflecting the C-verse. Over 100 active workers (about 1 in 5) in the US in the C-Verse have a C+ or better. Putting Randy Orton in that percentile doesn't make much sense. I can think of maybe 10-15 guys with better charisma with a crowd right now than Orton. But a hundred?</p><p> </p><p> 3) Adam's own interpretations of the data. In his last update of EWR, which featured both Cena and Orton as up and coming upper midcarders, both of them had charisma that was only a step behind Jericho, Guerrero, Rock, and Austin. Considering Cena won "best on interviews" after Jericho left, Eddie died, and the rest were out of the limelight, this also reflects reality. Note that Cena continued to win WO's "most charismatic" award even after Jericho came back to get his "best promos." Which leads me into:</p><p> </p><p> 4) Reflects the real world. Cena and Orton are two of the top workers in the world today, and putting them as Randall Hopkirk/Brett Biggz level charisma doesn't make a whole lot of sense.</p>

[ampulator]

<p>I wouldn't be rating them at C+ if I didn't think it made sense. As the having that amount of charisma, a lot of characters in C+ charisma or even less that have high overness relative to their promotion's size, even in SE promotions of the C-Verse.</p><p> </p><p>

But I think there aren't a lot of workers with good mic skills. Most people learn to wrestle TO wrestle. There aren't a whole lof of workers with B- or higher in mic skills today, if you ask me. </p><p> </p><p>

It's mainly because the worker base is different. It's mostly modern-style workers. There aren't a whole lot of them that work the mic well.</p><p> </p><p>

As for Cena's winning the best interview award, that doesn't really matter to me, at all. Those kind of awards wouldn't matter to me even if the Rock or Stone Cold won them. It's hardly proof enough. And besides, who were giving out these best interviews awards?</p><p> </p><p>

Seriously, I don't find Orton or Cena more charismatic than others, and that's both subjectively and objectively. </p><p> </p><p>

Like I said, as much as I hated Ultimate Warrior, I can see he had high charisma. I can't see it, at all, with Orton or Cena. I just don't see it. I get nothing. I really dislike super-serious Chris Jericho, but I can't say his mic skills and charisma doesn't shine through no matter how hard he tries to hide them. With Cena and Orton, I don't think it's really there, at all. And they don't need it. As for Game Balance, I think Mike Knox is EVEN WORSE than those two. I wouldn't even put letters on that.</p><p> </p><p>

In fact, the current crop of WWE Stars? Not so good on the mic. Not necessarily bad, but not so good. </p><p> </p><p>

Kofi Kingston? Average on the mic. Good charisma. </p><p>

john Morrison? Same thing. </p><p> </p><p>

About the only person that's good on the mic is the Miz, and I'm not even his fan, though I don't dislike him. I can see why people would rate him a B or B+ in either Charisma or Mic Skills.</p>

[Remianen]

<p>ampulator, the problem with your line of thinking is that you seem to think those things exist in a vacuum. Remember gimmicks? Remember what gimmicks are based on? Remember what happens when some gimmick bases LOSE to some other gimmick bases? Have you ever seen the actual effects of these things? Lemme give you a real example.</p><p> </p><p>

Kofi Kingston, with his 'fun' type gimmick, beat Randy Orton (with his Legit or ****y based gimmick) clean. In TEW, what would happen to Randy Orton's overness when that occurred? How would Randy Orton recover from that with barely above average entertainment skills?</p><p> </p><p>

Look, like it or not, the people at the top of Sports Entertainment promotions tend to have LOTS of what Sports Entertainment promotions value most. While Comradebot's experiences have depth, he didn't run an SE promotion at the International or Global levels. The game does make distinctions. A worker can main event just fine at the Regional level with 55-65 in selling with no issues. Put that same worker in an International or Global promotion with that level of selling skill and what note is produced by every one of their matches? The stakes are higher and there is an overt expectation that workers at the very top are there for a reason beyond their overness right now. Remember, overness is easy to manipulate for a human booker. But for the AI? Eh, not so much. Look at Kucian Carter's TWA diary. He got Sid Vicious to 90 popularity in the home area in a handful of shows based solely on a widely known Brute/Menace combination. Now, could the AI do that? Why isn't T-Rex sitting at 90 pop across the US?</p><p> </p><p>

The original question seemed to be phrased in such a way to make me think that Rick isn't playing as WWE. He just wanted the 'E to sim properly. To that end, giving their top workers the stats that would make them actual top workers in a promotion of that size and of that style, would fix the problem <strong><em>long term</em></strong>. Just boosting everyone's overness isn't going to do it because it'll lead to inflation as that overness gets bled to people who aren't sufficiently talented or skilled.</p>

[shamelessposer]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I wouldn't be rating them at C+ if I didn't think it made sense. As the having that amount of charisma, a lot of characters in C+ charisma or even less that have high overness relative to their promotion's size, even in SE promotions of the C-Verse.<p> </p><p> But I think there aren't a lot of workers with good mic skills. Most people learn to wrestle TO wrestle. There aren't a whole lof of workers with B- or higher in mic skills today, if you ask me. </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The problem with applying this philosophy to mod making is that the game uses a one hundred point scale, and you're only wanting to use seventy-two points of it. The game is not designed for the sort of stats you want to apply to these people, and it will fall apart if you stat workers the way you're saying you want to.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>ampulator, the problem with your line of thinking is that you seem to think those things exist in a vacuum. Remember gimmicks? Remember what gimmicks are based on? Remember what happens when some gimmick bases LOSE to some other gimmick bases? Have you ever seen the actual effects of these things? Lemme give you a real example.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I can understand that, but as far as I know, having C+ in Entertainment skills isn't really that limiting when it comes to gimmicks. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Kofi Kingston, with his 'fun' type gimmick, beat Randy Orton (with his Legit or ****y based gimmick) clean. In TEW, what would happen to Randy Orton's overness when that occurred? How would Randy Orton recover from that with barely above average entertainment skills?</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well, according to the WWE's booking, he gains it back through beating Kofi Kingston the next time they meet. *sigh* It's why I dislike WWE booking right now. But another issue for another time. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Look, like it or not, the people at the top of Sports Entertainment promotions tend to have LOTS of what Sports Entertainment promotions value most. While Comradebot's experiences have depth, he didn't run an SE promotion at the International or Global levels. The game does make distinctions. A worker can main event just fine at the Regional level with 55-65 in selling with no issues. Put that same worker in an International or Global promotion with that level of selling skill and what note is produced by every one of their matches? The stakes are higher and there is an overt expectation that workers at the very top are there for a reason beyond their overness right now. </p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> As for selling, it doesn't have to high in SE promotion for Main Eventers. I would say that Consistency and Basics need to be higher... and for that, I'll probably rank those pretty high for Orton and Cena (they haven't flub a match unless it's too long). </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Remember, overness is easy to manipulate for a human booker. But for the AI? Eh, not so much. Look at Kucian Carter's TWA diary. He got Sid Vicious to 90 popularity in the home area in a handful of shows based solely on a widely known Brute/Menace combination. Now, could the AI do that? Why isn't T-Rex sitting at 90 pop across the US?</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Now THAT'S a good point. I'll concede that. Nothing more to add there. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> The original question seemed to be phrased in such a way to make me think that Rick isn't playing as WWE. He just wanted the 'E to sim properly. To that end, giving their top workers the stats that would make them actual top workers in a promotion of that size and of that style, would fix the problem <strong><em>long term</em></strong>. Just boosting everyone's overness isn't going to do it because it'll lead to inflation as that overness gets bled to people who aren't sufficiently talented or skilled.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> As for in-ring skills, having a B- in performance skills won't kill in SE fed. Any lower, yep, I can that's bad. </p><p> </p><p> As for Entertainment skills... well, I already conceded that to Remianen, because the in-game AI isn't good at that. See above.</p>

[Genadi]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Just for kicks, the last release update of EWR 4.2 gave both Cena and Orton 95's for charisma in December 2002: meaning that Eddie Guerrero, The Rock, Paul Heyman, Ric Flair, and Chris Jericho were the only ones with better charisma.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think it's sad people are still comparing EWR to TEW, especially stats which have changed more then anything.</p><p> </p><p> Edit - This thread proves there will and can never be a mod that everyone will be happy with... mod makers take note.</p>

[Rick Savant]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>What does Ultimate Warrior have to do with Cena and Orton?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The similarities that can be drawn between the Ultimate Warrior and Cena and Orton are as follows:</p><p> </p><p> Both Cena and Warrior are workers who got over due to their charisma, appealing primarily to children via a cartoonish gimmick and who were never very good in the ring. Also both played an invulerable face.</p><p> </p><p> Warrior and Orton were both charismatic wrestlers who got over through non-verbal means.</p><p> </p><p> The comparisons aren't exact (John Cena could never hope to be as bad in the ring as Mr Warrior and UW's WAY funnier than Orton) but comparison's never are unless you're comparing something to it's self. Just so that's clear, since there seemed to be confusion over it.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The original question seemed to be phrased in such a way to make me think that Rick isn't playing as WWE. He just wanted the 'E to sim properly.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is correct.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>To that end, giving their top workers the stats that would make them actual top workers in a promotion of that size and of that style, would fix the problem <strong><em>long term</em></strong>. Just boosting everyone's overness isn't going to do it because it'll lead to inflation as that overness gets bled to people who aren't sufficiently talented or skilled.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Couldn't this be solved by having talented wrestlers for it to bleed into? If Evan Bourne, Big Show, Chavo, Rhodes, Bryan, Ziggler, Hart, Kid, Finlay, Morrison, Kingston, Porter, Primo and Regal are all set up to go in the ring, surely some of them will inherit Cena's pop and be able to do something with it? Not to mention that in my sims WWE usually hires Hero, Lesnar and Juvi.</p><p> </p><p> Also if Punk, Rey, Undertaker, Orton, Jericho, Edge and Christian all have main event level overness shouldn't they be able to take his place if they're all equiped with the gift?</p>

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Rick Savant" data-cite="Rick Savant" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27761" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Couldn't this be solved by having talented wrestlers for it to bleed into? If Evan Bourne, Big Show, Chavo, Rhodes, Bryan, Ziggler, Hart, Kid, Finlay, Morrison, Kingston, Porter, Primo and Regal are all set up to go in the ring, surely some of them will inherit Cena's pop and be able to do something with it?<p> </p><p> Also if Punk, Rey, Undertaker, Orton, Jericho, Edge and Christian all have main event level overness shouldn't they be able to take his place if they're all equiped with the gift?</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yep. Problem is, some mods don't give the workers below main event level the skills necessary to step in, should the need arise. This is where personal bias does the most long term damage. Yes, it's vitally important to get the top tier of workers done "well". But long term, it's also important to get the second tier close as these are the workers who will tend to work with the top tier most often. Midcard and below can usually be filled by workers poached from elsewhere. However, given the typical bias some workers get from their pre-WWE lives (I'm lookin' at you, Bryan Danielson), those can work to that particular worker's favor. If Danielson is rated in the near-godly range in-ring, that can help him while he builds the overness and perhaps charisma.</p><p> </p><p> I'd seriously suggest you download some existing mods and look at how the workers you named in the first quoted paragraph are rated. Contrast them with the way the headliners are rated then think of what kind of results would be produced with those workers stepping into headliner positions. It's often startling.</p>

[Self]

<p>Very tempting to get very stuck in to this spirited debate, but instead I'll mildly dip my toes in. I'd definitely rate Orton & Cena on the higher side of Entertainment skills. Cena I'd model on the guys I trust to talk every single week in my TCW game with awesome results. Rick Law & Jack DeColt. 'B' to 'B+'.</p><p> </p><p>

Orton doesn't have that level of microphone skills, so I'd put him on par with Sam Keith or Edd Stone, who I happily let talk, but don't expect to hit home-runs every time. 'C+' microphone, 'B' charisma.</p>

[The Masked Orange]

Great idea shamelessposer, for this thread.

 

Now, use the C-Verse SWF as a base. Check out the midcarders, Valiant, FAG, The Biggz, Greed, Huntingdon.

 

They are all (off memory) around B- in entertainment and around B-/C+ in performance. This is so when they step up and work regularly with the Christian Faith's, Angry Gilmore's and REmo's of the world, they will develop into a nifty B in entertainment and performance quite quickly.

 

Look at real world mods. Somebody actually had the idea it was OK to give Dolphg Ziggler C in entertainment skills, (but his C+ in performance was near spot-on imo, I'd have made it a B- maybe a low B though). In mods based around a year ago, Swagger was C in entertainment and performance. Now if you look at the mods those stats have magically jumped to B's. It's just not natural.

[lazorbeak]

I think it's sad people are still comparing EWR to TEW, especially stats which have changed more then anything.

 

Edit - This thread proves there will and can never be a mod that everyone will be happy with... mod makers take note.

 

I'm confused why it's "sad" to use something Adam Ryland developed on a 100 point scale called "charisma" as supporting evidence of the three stats it turned into? While a lot of EWR comparisons don't really hold up, charisma is one of the easiest to compare. Now we have three stats on a 100 scale instead of 1: otherwise, what has changed? Was 2002 Adam so far off the mark that using his own interpretation of the data is no good?

 

Savant:

 

The similarities that can be drawn between the Ultimate Warrior and Cena and Orton are as follows:

 

Both Cena and Warrior are workers who got over due to their charisma, appealing primarily to children via a cartoonish gimmick and who were never very good in the ring. Also both played an invulerable face.

 

Warrior and Orton were both charismatic wrestlers who got over through non-verbal means.

 

The comparisons aren't exact (John Cena could never hope to be as bad in the ring as Mr Warrior and UW's WAY funnier than Orton) but comparison's never are unless you're comparing something to it's self. Just so that's clear, since there seemed to be confusion over it.

 

How long was Warrior a main eventer? And no, his blink and you miss it run in WCW, his feud with Jerry Lawler over a painting, and no-selling the Pedigree don't count. Now, how long was Cena a main eventer? Orton?

 

Now, how many times did the opening of a WWF TV show depend on Ultimate Warrior going out and cutting a six minute or more promo in front of a live audience?

 

Cena and Orton both do this on a regular basis, and setting their skills low enough that they drop popularity or drop show ratings if left to their own devices doesn't reflect reality.

 

Masked Orange:

 

A lot of it is the phenomena I described earlier: the mod-maker is a mark for Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels, or whoever, and gives them incredible stats all the way across the board. Then they get to guys they either don't follow closely or aren't fans of and suddenly they're hyper-critical and think they're being "fair." So you get a world where Shawn Michaels is the second coming and John Cena's wrestling skills look more like Buff Bagwell when he was in the American Males.

 

Edit: Amp: it's not even worth arguing with someone when you take the time to explain half a dozen reasons supporting your point and the best counter they can come up with is "meh I don't see it." I'm not trying to convince you to think Cena is charismatic: you can think whatever you want. But I do want to convince any mod-makers including you that there's plenty of methods and plenty of reasons to go beyond your own personal bias.