The Official Football/Soccer Thread

[cappyboy]

Plus Ghana has some pretty good players beside Essien and Serbia tends to under perform.

 

Plus remember the lessons of 2006. Ghana was supposed to finish last in the group four years ago. All the chatter was that Italy and the Czech Republic would go to the round of 16 with my beloved US third and Ghana in the cellar. All Ghana did was go out and make the conventional thinkers look silly. Yeah-but if you want about how we played scared and how the Czechs choked. But the Ghanians had to be able to take advantage and they did. I would not be foolish enough to take them lightly. If England is, they won't be making the round of 8. I'm pretty sure if we get Ghana this year in the round of 16 we'll give them more respect than we did in 06.

[Hyde Hill]

Plus remember the lessons of 2006. Ghana was supposed to finish last in the group four years ago. All the chatter was that Italy and the Czech Republic would go to the round of 16 with my beloved US third and Ghana in the cellar. All Ghana did was go out and make the conventional thinkers look silly. Yeah-but if you want about how we played scared and how the Czechs choked. But the Ghanians had to be able to take advantage and they did. I would not be foolish enough to take them lightly. If England is, they won't be making the round of 8. I'm pretty sure if we get Ghana this year in the round of 16 we'll give them more respect than we did in 06.

 

Yep if there is going to be a surprise it is going to be one of the sub Saharan teams in my book. Nigeria, Ghana, Ivory Coast and Cameroon are all dangerous.

[Hyde Hill]

They are playing a friendly against us, the Dutch, in about an hour so will see what can be gleaned from that. Good warm up match as it pertains to the playing style since we will face Cameroon on our group.

[sebsplex]

Rumours going around about the England World Cup Squad. Seems Walcott is out and this is considered a 'shock' for some unknown reason. No idea why, has done nothing for 18 months and lacked ideas in the warm-up games.

 

Looks like Barry will make it, meaning will play Stevie on the left and not off of Rooney like he should be. Unless he stick Joe Cole up there as well expect to see some pretty poor performance from England.

 

I take a look at Span and see they have 4 fantastic central midfielder's, I then see they dont try to turn 2 of them into wingers just because there awesome.

 

2ndround/QF exit as usual I thin for us. Hope I'm wrong.

 

Well Barry is in, which means Capello can now happily avoid the issue of dropping either Gerrard of Lampard. You're right, standard issue England means that Gerrard will be out on the left once more... meaning that as usual he'll drift towards the centre, leave the left back exposed and too often end up pinging aimless 40 yard passes across the pitch. I bet Warnock is thanking his lucky stars that Baines got the nod for the Mexico friendly, because Gerrard left him horribly exposed in that game and that's probably what cost him his place on the plane (not that I really rate Baines or Warnock notably better than the other, Baines just seems a bit more attack minded). Not particularly Gerrard's fault as he's not a left midfielder, but even though Ashley Cole is a far better LB than Baines or Warnock, you cannot go against major teams and concede such a chunk of the pitch. At least Barry can carry more of the defensive burden than Huddlestone.

 

I don't really see the 'shock' of Walcott not making the cut either. He's been in and out of the Arsenal team and my boss (who's a gooner season ticket holder) is frequently moaning about him. I still think Lennon's form is final product is too erratic, but he figures far more consistantly in the Spurs team and ticks all the other boxes that Walcott does when it comes to pace and the ability to take on defenders. I'm a little surprised at SWP making it in. It was probably too early for Adam Johnson, but you've got to question Capello's mantra about form and playing when you keep one player in the squad and dump the player who seems to have replaced him for his own club.

 

Heskey's inclusion is also no real surprise, but again he's hardly in form for his club. Realisitically though, Rooney seems to excell when Heskey (despite his limitations) is holding up the ball, occupying defenders and generally working up top.

 

Overall though, this is pretty much the same England team with the same problems that failed to make Euro 2008. I can't see them doing anything much beyond the group stages and then it'll be the usual backlash against fringe players or Capello rather than the England regulars who've been in the starting 11 for years and years.

[CQI13]

As long as Mexico doesn't make it out of the 2nd round, I'll be glad. Any chance we see shenanigans to have South Africa be competitive (or even advance past the group stage)?

[20LEgend]

Just seen on Sky Sports:

 

Heskey 3 goals in 31

Crouch 7 goals in 32

Defoe 18 in 32

Bent 24 in 38

Rooney 26 in 32

 

Obviously this isn't an accurate representation of who'd do best at the World Cup, but Heskey.

 

I'm English and even I want England to lose, because most of the team are arseholes (Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, Carragher, Barry ...)

[Fleisch]

I'm baffled by how many people are picking up France to get full points from a group including Mexico and Uruguay. France are awful.

 

I'm also baffled that I appear to be the only one picking Ivory Coast to possibly pip Portugal. Portugal's last world cup warm-up friendly was against Cape Verde Islands. At home. They drew 0-0. Full strength team too, Ronaldo, Deco, Nani, Veloso, Carvalho etc.

 

World Cup's are hard to predict, or rather easy to predict, depending on which way you look at it. The big teams always seem to raise their game bar one disaster, ie France 2002. So, I do expect Germany, Italy and Argentina to play better than they have recently. However France, despite the miracle of Euro 2008, I just can't see doing anything of worth and it wouldn't surprise me to see Portugal fail to get out of the group.

 

Edit: Serbia will 2nd Group D. Ghana are a one man team and that one man is injured (Essien).

 

If we all picked the same then there'd be no point in a discussion. I personally don't agree with you on either Portugal or France and I see them doing better than Ivory Coast because with the exception of Drogba, Ivory Coast don't have anyone of any real talent.

[Hyde Hill]

If we all picked the same then there'd be no point in a discussion. I personally don't agree with you on either Portugal or France and I see them doing better than Ivory Coast because with the exception of Drogba, Ivory Coast don't have anyone of any real talent.

 

Lolz.

 

Yaya Toure, Dindane, Aroune Kone, Salomon Kalou, Gabriel Meite, Gabriel Toure etc would care to disagree.

 

And to an earlier post yeah I expect some bias towards sub Saharan teams when it comes to benefit of the doubt situations. BTW 4-1 for the Dutch against Ghana with us not playing well.

[SuperOwens]

Well Barry is in, which means Capello can now happily avoid the issue of dropping either Gerrard of Lampard. You're right, standard issue England means that Gerrard will be out on the left once more... meaning that as usual he'll drift towards the centre, leave the left back exposed and too often end up pinging aimless 40 yard passes across the pitch. I bet Warnock is thanking his lucky stars that Baines got the nod for the Mexico friendly, because Gerrard left him horribly exposed in that game and that's probably what cost him his place on the plane (not that I really rate Baines or Warnock notably better than the other, Baines just seems a bit more attack minded). Not particularly Gerrard's fault as he's not a left midfielder, but even though Ashley Cole is a far better LB than Baines or Warnock, you cannot go against major teams and concede such a chunk of the pitch. At least Barry can carry more of the defensive burden than Huddlestone.

 

I don't really see the 'shock' of Walcott not making the cut either. He's been in and out of the Arsenal team and my boss (who's a gooner season ticket holder) is frequently moaning about him. I still think Lennon's form is final product is too erratic, but he figures far more consistantly in the Spurs team and ticks all the other boxes that Walcott does when it comes to pace and the ability to take on defenders. I'm a little surprised at SWP making it in. It was probably too early for Adam Johnson, but you've got to question Capello's mantra about form and playing when you keep one player in the squad and dump the player who seems to have replaced him for his own club.

 

Heskey's inclusion is also no real surprise, but again he's hardly in form for his club. Realisitically though, Rooney seems to excell when Heskey (despite his limitations) is holding up the ball, occupying defenders and generally working up top.

 

Overall though, this is pretty much the same England team with the same problems that failed to make Euro 2008. I can't see them doing anything much beyond the group stages and then it'll be the usual backlash against fringe players or Capello rather than the England regulars who've been in the starting 11 for years and years.

 

The team just doesnt look balanced with Gerrard out on the left. Im really surprised Capello didnt take a look at him as a second striker in the warm-up games. You either stick him in the centre of give him a free role.

 

I dont see why we have to play players on reputation, if Lampard and Gerrard cant play together, drop one of them. Dont stick one on the wing and hope for the best.

 

I understand the logic when it first started. Rooney wasn't considered as somebody who can lead the line on his own and Gerrard played in the middle or on the right. Now we have Rooney playing upfront on his own for his club and Gerrard being a second striker. Its silly as Rooney drops deep now when we dont have the ball, you may as well stick an attacking midfielder in there to do that job and tell him to stay upfront.

 

I hoped SWP would get in, he showed a bit of hunger when he gets on. Against Japan he did that nice double tackle that got us into a good position, you wouldn't see Walcott doing that. Bent has done nothing to justify a place. Good for his club but is he better than Defoe? If not there's no point in having both.

 

Heskey doesnt score, but does a job and offers something different. Crouch looks funny, got to have him in. Think my only surprise was Warnock over Baines, feel sorry for him.

[cappyboy]

 

I dont see why we have to play players on reputation, if Lampard and Gerrard cant play together, drop one of them. Dont stick one on the wing and hope for the best.

 

I understand the logic when it first started. Rooney wasn't considered as somebody who can lead the line on his own and Gerrard played in the middle or on the right. Now we have Rooney playing upfront on his own for his club and Gerrard being a second striker. Its silly as Rooney drops deep now when we dont have the ball, you may as well stick an attacking midfielder in there to do that job and tell him to stay upfront.

 

It's the same reason so much resentment was being directed y'all's way earlier in the thread. Please forgive my allusions for all being home-based. Can be hard to get out of country sports here in the States. But in the NFL, you guys would be the Dallas Cowboys. In MLB, you become the New York Yankees. In the NCAA, you're University of Nebraska football (our version) or one of the basketball teams from central North Carolina. You guys are one of the few countries even the underinformed know to expect something from and you act like that's your birthright. Whether you've earned that attitude on the pitch or not. Perhaps most especially when you haven't.

 

Why should you guys have to try and get the best 23 to South Africa? You're almighty England. The rest of the world is supposed to cede you guys a spot in the quarters just on principle. You're ENGLAND darnit. At least that's how your national program's attitude looks from the outside. There's an institutional arrogance that gets in the way of y'all getting the guys you need to deserve the reputation you try to feed off of. Makes me glad I'm not British. I would be in revolt if that were going on with any of my teams. Be it Team USA or my Cleveland Browns or my DC United. I don't digest arrogance easily.

[Genadi]

It's the same reason so much resentment was being directed y'all's way earlier in the thread. Please forgive my allusions for all being home-based. Can be hard to get out of country sports here in the States. But in the NFL, you guys would be the Dallas Cowboys. In MLB, you become the New York Yankees. In the NCAA, you're University of Nebraska football (our version) or one of the basketball teams from central North Carolina. You guys are one of the few countries even the underinformed know to expect something from and you act like that's your birthright. Whether you've earned that attitude on the pitch or not. Perhaps most especially when you haven't.

 

Why should you guys have to try and get the best 23 to South Africa? You're almighty England. The rest of the world is supposed to cede you guys a spot in the quarters just on principle. You're ENGLAND darnit. At least that's how your national program's attitude looks from the outside. There's an institutional arrogance that gets in the way of y'all getting the guys you need to deserve the reputation you try to feed off of. Makes me glad I'm not British. I would be in revolt if that were going on with any of my teams. Be it Team USA or my Cleveland Browns or my DC United. I don't digest arrogance easily.

 

Well said Cappy, I feel exactly the same way about Australia's cricket and rugby teams. I haven't supported either in years for those reasons.

 

England is still my pick for the win, if Rooney stays healthy and Messi doesn't create history they're the team to beat imo.

[SuperOwens]

It's the same reason so much resentment was being directed y'all's way earlier in the thread. Please forgive my allusions for all being home-based. Can be hard to get out of country sports here in the States. But in the NFL, you guys would be the Dallas Cowboys. In MLB, you become the New York Yankees. In the NCAA, you're University of Nebraska football (our version) or one of the basketball teams from central North Carolina. You guys are one of the few countries even the underinformed know to expect something from and you act like that's your birthright. Whether you've earned that attitude on the pitch or not. Perhaps most especially when you haven't.

 

Why should you guys have to try and get the best 23 to South Africa? You're almighty England. The rest of the world is supposed to cede you guys a spot in the quarters just on principle. You're ENGLAND darnit. At least that's how your national program's attitude looks from the outside. There's an institutional arrogance that gets in the way of y'all getting the guys you need to deserve the reputation you try to feed off of. Makes me glad I'm not British. I would be in revolt if that were going on with any of my teams. Be it Team USA or my Cleveland Browns or my DC United. I don't digest arrogance easily.

 

I don't really see it that way myself. If the point being made was that the press hype up our chances at international tournaments, I'd agree. They are terrible for that and it obviously makes them money. More than one manager has lost the England job because of the media.

 

From a fan perspective I don't know too many people who think we will win it. I also don't think there is an arrogance involved in thinking England should be a team that is challenging for top honours. There are numerous reasons both footballing and non-footballing that makes me feel that way.

 

On paper we have a great team, reality is we will probably under perform as usual. The highest paid international manager in the world will go from being a strict disciplinarian and tactical genius to being labelled a turnip/wally with brolly/add whatever you like, and get sacked with a massive pay off. Rinse and repeat.

 

Truth of the matter is that our players do not play well together. They don't perform for the national team as they do for there clubs. Not really something that only happens to England, just ask the Dutch.

[Hyde Hill]

Hehe yeah but the English tend to under perform even more because with just English in the team they have a strong tendency to revert to kick and rush. With the Dutch it tends to be either a bad coach and or mentality Van Basten, 1990, 1996 as examples. This time around all seems pretty good and balanced much like 1998 when we could/should have won it.

[cappyboy]

I don't really see it that way myself. If the point being made was that the press hype up our chances at international tournaments, I'd agree. They are terrible for that and it obviously makes them money. More than one manager has lost the England job because of the media.

 

From a fan perspective I don't know too many people who think we will win it. I also don't think there is an arrogance involved in thinking England should be a team that is challenging for top honours. There are numerous reasons both footballing and non-footballing that makes me feel that way.

 

All well and good. It may look totally different from inside the English base. I was just saying how it looks from the outside.

[sebsplex]

All well and good. It may look totally different from inside the English base. I was just saying how it looks from the outside.

 

Tbh, you lost me pretty much with the previous post. Beyond reading some of that tat the passes for a newspaper in this country or perhaps encountering the minority of EN-GUR-LUND~! fans who spend half their time during matches chanting about winning World Wars, I'd struggle to find that attitude being either held or displayed.

 

Basically I'd nod to everything SuperOwens replied with. There's no reason to pretend England aren't a significant team at International level. Certainly not the best and not looking like becoming that anytime soon, but there aren't fixed reasons why England shouldn't aspireto achieve more than we have in recent years.

 

Hehe yeah but the English tend to under perform even more because with just English in the team they have a strong tendency to revert to kick and rush. With the Dutch it tends to be either a bad coach and or mentality Van Basten, 1990, 1996 as examples. This time around all seems pretty good and balanced much like 1998 when we could/should have won it.

 

The thing is, most of the time they're not underperforming and that's the problem. They're performing as expected. The team doesn't adapt, the remainder of the 'Golden Generation' of players remain involved (who've done nothing at international level to justify such a label) yet seem inable to evolve as a group, meaning that we're left debating the same issues that have been present for the last 10 years. We do resort to kick and rush to a point, but I think part of that is down to our way of playing at league level. Although English teams involved in European competition seem to have understood this better, the more physical, frantic and less controlled style of play in our beloved Premier League doesn't always cut it. Referees provide more protection, possession is more important, playing a one tempo game isn't effective, etc.

 

Looking around at the other WC squads, it's striking how little we've changed. Hell if Owen and Beckham were fit and Scholes didn't fancy his summer holiday more, they'd probably have been on the plane as well.

[Hyde Hill]

I meant underperformed in terms of the hype they get. "Golden Generation" ROFLMOA.

[Fleisch]

Lolz.

 

Yaya Toure, Dindane, Aroune Kone, Salomon Kalou, Gabriel Meite, Gabriel Toure etc would care to disagree.

 

And to an earlier post yeah I expect some bias towards sub Saharan teams when it comes to benefit of the doubt situations. BTW 4-1 for the Dutch against Ghana with us not playing well.

 

Yeah after posting I realised what a **** up I'd made of that reply. But I still don't believe they are a better squad overall than France or Portugal (and I HATE the French).

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah but they will have nothing to do with the French until the semi final if both reach that which I doubt. They will be a challenger for the no2 spot so the wildcard in that group is Portugal.

[Slim Jim]

It's quite close IMO, especially with Portugal if you compare the two squads. Portugal and France are better squads on paper but as a team, as a unit, I think Ivory Coast are a much more dangerous proposition right now.

 

Especially to Spain, who are the favourites. I think Spain's style of play would make mincemeat of France, and likely Portugal too, but Ivory Coast probably wouldn't try to out "play" them in the same way.

 

I think I said this before, but if they play with Inter Milan style tactics, with Zokora and Y.Toure as holding midfielders in front of a back four, let Spain come onto them, and then spring a counter with three of Romaric/Keita/Gervinho/Kalou to aide Drogba, they could certainly snatch something from them.

 

That's why I made Ivory Coast beating Spain in the 2nd Round my "big upset" in the dreamy picks I made for how England could stumble to the World Cup. Probably won't happen but I don't think I've made a BAD case for it being quite possible.

[Fleisch]

It's the same reason so much resentment was being directed y'all's way earlier in the thread. Please forgive my allusions for all being home-based. Can be hard to get out of country sports here in the States. But in the NFL, you guys would be the Dallas Cowboys. In MLB, you become the New York Yankees. In the NCAA, you're University of Nebraska football (our version) or one of the basketball teams from central North Carolina. You guys are one of the few countries even the underinformed know to expect something from and you act like that's your birthright. Whether you've earned that attitude on the pitch or not. Perhaps most especially when you haven't.

 

Why should you guys have to try and get the best 23 to South Africa? You're almighty England. The rest of the world is supposed to cede you guys a spot in the quarters just on principle. You're ENGLAND darnit. At least that's how your national program's attitude looks from the outside. There's an institutional arrogance that gets in the way of y'all getting the guys you need to deserve the reputation you try to feed off of. Makes me glad I'm not British. I would be in revolt if that were going on with any of my teams. Be it Team USA or my Cleveland Browns or my DC United. I don't digest arrogance easily.

 

The same reason every team in the World Cup should try to get the best 23 to South Africa... to try and win. Wouldn't do to be putting a load of lads from the Blue Square North/South in the International Team would it? They'd be killed by every team... England would be on par with San Marino!

 

I know there was an irony in your post, I'm Scottish and there is an arrogance about some English fans but it's not that way with all of them. It seems only the Americans are allowed to be patriotic to the point of ridicule and any other national who loves their country with the same pride is deemed (by Americans) as arrogant. "Pot, Kettle & Black" I think, but anyway I promised I wouldn't turn this into a "war of the countries". Englands chances of winning are slim because there are too many ego's in the squad. All the while Gerrard & Lampard are playing alongside each other, England will win nothing. Having 2 attacking center midfielders if you play 4 across the middle is asking for trouble. Neither of those guys want to be in the "holding" role so this leaves England vulnerable at the back... and David James getting the number 1 shirt ahead of Green and Hart... says it all really. It's like Carrick getting the nod over Scott Parker! Carrick has done nothing really this season, while Scott Parker almost single handedly with his work rate helped West Ham stay in the Premier League. Heskey over Bent... now that is worrying! But I am not a football coach so what would I know? Only time will tell if this is genius or disaster. For now though I am sticking with Spain over Brazil in the final. If I'm wrong in everyone of my predictions, so be it, Scotland aren't in it anyway so I'm not going to be heartbroken if the unthinkable happens! I had more to say but I gotta go to work so have rushed my opinions through!

[CQI13]

Drogba injured in friendly against Japan.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j19Iwl9WNnSpc6X-2lf6E25ziI5gD9G4F6PO1

[Hyde Hill]

L'Equipe (French Soccer mag) is reporting that Drogba told them he broke his arm and will miss the world cup.

 

Ferdinand has apparently injured his knee in training for England which could also be a blow depending on the seriousness of the injury.

[Hyde Hill]

Yep Rio is out and will be replaced by Dawson. And Gerrard is the new captain.

[CQI13]

Weird, the Drogba injury was said to have been to his groin and hip, but was able to leave the field on his own. Still sucks.

[SuperOwens]

Not sure how I feel about Ferdinand, dont see it as that much of a loss really.

 

Will be interesting to see who replaces him. King cant play 2 games in a short space of time, Upson would be most logical having covered for him up to now. Carragher is now in the squad as well though and Dawson will be called up as his relpacement.