1994: Clash of The Titans

[boss316]

Sting made an entire self life documentary detailing how it did

 

Be warned if you haven't watched it, it's 2 hours of your life you're never getting back.

 

 

 

 

 

Flair should not be compared to anyone, the guy could still out wrestle half of WWE's roster at age 55.... that isn't normal and neither is he

 

No matter what he has done with his life and money, when it comes to wrestling...Ric Flair will always be THE MAN!!!!

[soxfan93]

Sounds like a few of you missed his TNA work.

[MitchHedberg]

Alright, it wasn't a waste of a click anymore.

[RKOwnage]

Any timeline on an update?

[RayW]

I've simmed through to January 1998, and so far every year the Top 500 workers and the other yearly awards are dominated by either Japanese workers, or American workers that work in Japan. I'm not sure if maybe workers in Japan have been made much better than anyone else in the world, or if maybe the game just makes everyone else suck after a year.

 

Anyway, just as an example, here are the top 10 of every year so far:

 

1993 (Start of game)

1. Ric Flair (WCW)

2. Shawn Michaels (WWF)

3. Randy Savage (WWF)

4. Bret Hart (WWF)

5. El Hijo del Santo (AAA)

6. Ricky Steamboat (WCW)

7. Sting (WCW)

8. Hulk Hogan (WCW)

9. Jushin Thunder Liger (NJPW)

10. Vader (UWFi / WCW)

 

As you see, this is the generated set from when I start the game. Dominated by workers that work in America.

 

1994

1. Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW /AJPW)

2. Mitsuhara Misawa (AJPW)

3. Vader (AJPW / UWFi / WCW)

4. Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW)

5. Kenta Kobashi (AJPW)

6. Shawn Michaels (WWF)

7. Stan Hansen (AJPW)

8. Hulk Hogan (WCW)

9. Akira Taue (AJPW)

10. Ric Flair (WCW)

 

Here we go from 8 workers that worked in the United States to 4, and that's including Vader in both lists, who also works in Japan.

 

1995

1. Kenta Kobashi (AJPW)

2. Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW)

3. Mitsuhara Misawa (AJPW)

4. Shinya Hashimoto (AJPW)

5. Akira Taue (AJPW)

6. Vader (AJPW / NJPW / UWFi / WCW)

7. Jushin Thunder Liger (NJPW)

8. Dean Malenko (NJPW)

9. Ric Flair (WCW)

10. Steve Williams (NJPW)

 

This year only one worker based outside of Japan got on to the top 10, not including Vader, who spent most of his time in Japan.

 

1996

1. Mitsuhara Misawa (AJPW)

2. Kenta Kobashi (AJPW)

3. Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW)

4. Shinya Hashimoto (AJPW)

5. Dean Malenko (NJPW)

6. Jun Akiyama (AJPW)

7. Steve Williams (NJPW)

8. Vader (NJPW / UWFi)

9. Keiji Mutoh (NJPW)

10. Jushin Thunder Liger (NJPW)

 

This year everyone is based in Japan, not even Vader is representing North America any more, as he solely works in Japan now.

 

1997

1. Mitsuhara Misawa (AJPW)

2. Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW)

3. Shinya Hashimoto (AJPW)

4. El Dandy (CMLL)

5. Kenta Kobashi (AJPW)

6. Vader (NJPW / UWFi)

7. Dean Malenko (NJPW)

8. Jun Akiyama (AJPW)

9. Hiroshi Hase (NJPW)

10. Jushin Thunder Liger (NJPW)

 

The last year I simmed has one worker based out side of Japan in El Dandy. Now, like I said, I'm not sure if it's something to do with stats. I could be totally wrong and it could be to do with the fact that Japanese promotions put on more events due to the tours. Just wanted to throw it out there.

[justtxyank]

1) Japanese workers are better workers in their style on average

2) Japanese promotions are more "work rate" oriented so it makes it easier for good workers to get good grades

3) Japanese promotions run a ton of shows due to the tours

[RayW]

1) Japanese workers are better workers in their style on average

2) Japanese promotions are more "work rate" oriented so it makes it easier for good workers to get good grades

3) Japanese promotions run a ton of shows due to the tours

Right, I had a feeling it was that. Just wanted to make sure.

[justtxyank]

Right, I had a feeling it was that. Just wanted to make sure.

 

That doesn't make it less frustrating, but I don't think the mod can fix it. The real world isn't balanced like the CVerse. Japan at this time in particular had better quality matches on average. The WWF and WCW were full of a lot of mediocre or over the hill guys that were phoning it in for paychecks while Japan was in the middle of the prime years of Hash, Chono, Muta, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Hase with guys like Dr. Death, Gordy, Vader, Albright, Kensuke Sasaki, Tenryu, Hansen, etc. filling out cards. You are talking about some of the best workers ever. This is the prime of AJPW.

 

It's hard to have a bad match average when you wrestle 60 times a year in the game against Misawa, Kobashi, Steve Williams, Vader, Terry Gordy, Gary Albright, Stan Hansen, etc.

[Henderson]

Who are you to doubt El Dandy?

[RayW]

That doesn't make it less frustrating, but I don't think the mod can fix it. The real world isn't balanced like the CVerse. Japan at this time in particular had better quality matches on average. The WWF and WCW were full of a lot of mediocre or over the hill guys that were phoning it in for paychecks while Japan was in the middle of the prime years of Hash, Chono, Muta, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Hase with guys like Dr. Death, Gordy, Vader, Albright, Kensuke Sasaki, Tenryu, Hansen, etc. filling out cards. You are talking about some of the best workers ever. This is the prime of AJPW.

 

It's hard to have a bad match average when you wrestle 60 times a year in the game against Misawa, Kobashi, Steve Williams, Vader, Terry Gordy, Gary Albright, Stan Hansen, etc.

 

After going through some of the workers based at the top of WCW and WWF over the years, when you have guys like Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, Sting and Bret Hart only pulling an average rating of B every year thanks to having to get in the ring with the likes of Doink The Clown and Bunkhouse Buck, it's actually easy to see why the Japanese workers are at the top of the pro wrestling world.

 

The only fix I can think of is to take the number shows down in the tours, but then do you really want to do that? The point of the tour is to have 2-3 shows a week. I'm not sure how many shows the promotions actually run a week in their tours though...

[justtxyank]

After going through some of the workers based at the top of WCW and WWF over the years, when you have guys like Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, Sting and Bret Hart only pulling an average rating of B every year thanks to having to get in the ring with the likes of Doink The Clown and Bunkhouse Buck, it's actually easy to see why the Japanese workers are at the top of the pro wrestling world.

 

The only fix I can think of is to take the number shows down in the tours, but then do you really want to do that? The point of the tour is to have 2-3 shows a week. I'm not sure how many shows the promotions actually run a week in their tours though...

 

Yeah this is the problem (though I'd argue Bunkhouse Buck, Doink and Dick Slater are not actually bad workers). The depth of quality opponents for the Japanese guys is just much much better. But it really should be. We are American-centric because we are American or UK fans that are mostly exposed to American wrestling, but this is a world view game. The 90s for Japan (All Japan in particular) is the golden era for them. For American wrestling this is an era that is the dead period between the Golden Era and the Attitude Era. All Japan has the highest concentration of good and over workers that it would ever have.

 

Mitsuharu Misawa

Kenta Kobashi

Toshiaki Kawada

Stan Hansen

Vader

Steve Williams

Akira Taue

Jun Akiyama

Furnas and Kroffat

heck, even Baba and Tsuruta were still working tag matches

[Hive]

I think the problem lies with the game rewarding wrestling skills so much higher than entertainment/star rated skills.

 

In terms of actual wrestling ability, only a handful of America-based wrestlers would be able to match the top Japanese guys named. I'm thinking guys like Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, Bret and Owen Hart...

 

But in terms of star quality and entertainment, I'd say American wrestlers are far superior. It's just that those qualities aren't taken as much into account when calculating match ratings.

 

In TEW terms, Hogan vs. Warrior or Cena vs Rock would never, ever become MOTY as they did IRL (which, granted, was named by Americans).

 

Any timeline on an update?

 

I'm not sure. Could be as early as this sunday, but a more likely scenario says the weekend after that. This week will be busy for me.

[justtxyank]

I think the problem lies with the game rewarding wrestling skills so much higher than entertainment/star rated skills.

 

In terms of actual wrestling ability, only a handful of America-based wrestlers would be able to match the top Japanese guys named. I'm thinking guys like Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, Bret and Owen Hart...

 

But in terms of star quality and entertainment, I'd say American wrestlers are far superior. It's just that those qualities aren't taken as much into account when calculating match ratings.

 

In TEW terms, Hogan vs. Warrior or Cena vs Rock would never, ever become MOTY as they did IRL (which, granted, was named by Americans).

 

 

 

I'm not sure. Could be as early as this sunday, but a more likely scenario says the weekend after that. This week will be busy for me.

 

Hogan vs Warrior could get MOTY consideration in the game if the product is right and you had the same kind of momentum and popularity that those workers and the WWF had at that time.

 

But you made a great point when you said those matches got match of the year from AMERICAN wrestling media. A Japanese fan would never have said Hogan vs Warrior was better than a Jushin Liger match. But go look at Wrestling Observer and you'll see that 8 of 10 match of the year awards in the 90s went to matches in Japan.

[juggaloninjalee]

Before I give my opinions let me remind everyone that most of the top 100 lists are based on PWI. PWI is an American based magazine that is usually 90% American Workers to begin with. So the 93 list is from that I am assuming.

 

The game calculates its top 100 based on in game things and isn't biased towards a country. It's based on match ratings, and things like that. It is number based not opinion based.

 

I've simmed through to January 1998, and so far every year the Top 500 workers and the other yearly awards are dominated by either Japanese workers, or American workers that work in Japan. I'm not sure if maybe workers in Japan have been made much better than anyone else in the world, or if maybe the game just makes everyone else suck after a year.

 

Anyway, just as an example, here are the top 10 of every year so far:

 

As you see, this is the generated set from when I start the game. Dominated by workers that work in America.

 

Here we go from 8 workers that worked in the United States to 4, and that's including Vader in both lists, who also works in Japan.

 

This year only one worker based outside of Japan got on to the top 10, not including Vader, who spent most of his time in Japan.

 

This year everyone is based in Japan, not even Vader is representing North America any more, as he solely works in Japan now.

 

The last year I simmed has one worker based out side of Japan in El Dandy. Now, like I said, I'm not sure if it's something to do with stats. I could be totally wrong and it could be to do with the fact that Japanese promotions put on more events due to the tours. Just wanted to throw it out there.

 

The fact that Japanese workers are normally rated better in mods makes it easier for great wrestlers to have great wrestlers on a more regular basis over there.

 

A lot of top level guys in America and other places aren't always great wrestlers but more entertainers. So you will normally have lower rated matches.

 

 

1) Japanese workers are better workers in their style on average

2) Japanese promotions are more "work rate" oriented so it makes it easier for good workers to get good grades

3) Japanese promotions run a ton of shows due to the tours

 

Yeah its easier to find a good wrestler than a good entertainer it seems. So that is an advantage for work rate based promotions I think.

 

Again these are just my opinions on the matter.

[magik]

I think that the backstage areas of WCW and WWF need some changes:

WCW - 84

WWF - 100

 

I suggest setting them at around:

WCW - 70-75

WWF - 80-85

 

In WCW I would set:

Hulk Hogan - Extremely Negative (None now)

Tony Schiavone - Negative (Very Negative now)

Chris Cruise - None (Positive now)

Mickey Jay - None (Positive now)

Tex Slazenger - None (Positive now)

 

In WWF I would set:

Barry Hardy - None (Positive now)

Bastion Booger - None (Positive now)

Jack Doan - None (Extremely Positive now)

Jim Korderas - None (Positive now)

Lord Alfred Hayes - None (Positive now)

Rene Goulet - None (Positive now)

Reno Riggins - None (Positive now)

Rich Myers - None (Positive now)

Tatanka - Very Positive (Extremely Positive now)

Tony Chimel - None (Positive now)

Tony Garea - None (Positive now)

Yokozuna - None (Extremely Positive now)

Vince McMahon - Very Negative (Negative now)

Bret Hart - Very Positive (Positive now)

Sean Waltman - Positive (None now)

Razor Ramon - Extremely Negative (None now)

Jeff Jarrett - Very Positive (Negative now)

The Undertaker - Very Positive (None now)

 

 

Opinions are welcome.

[justtxyank]

Hulk Hogan wasn't a "very negative" influence though. The only gripe people have had about him was that he was protective of his character. He wasn't treating people like crap backstage, taking craps in their bags and stuff.

[magik]

Hulk Hogan wasn't a "very negative" influence though. The only gripe people have had about him was that he was protective of his character. He wasn't treating people like crap backstage, taking craps in their bags and stuff.

 

Depends on what you see it.

 

- He usually travelled first-class and wasn't always with the others

- He tried to keep the main event as he wanted to be sure he shined better (refused to wrestle Yokozuna, had tensions with Randy Savage and Bret Hart)

- He refused to have a match with some workers

 

He wasn't as bad in 1994 as he was in 1997-1999, but he was already quite a problem backstage.

[JamHead]

Depends on who you talk to. Some people say that Hogan would shrug off the entire locker room and ignore them unless you where doing a spot with him. To me, that IS a very negative influence no body wants a top draw that thinks he is to good to converse with the rest of the locker room. If The Undertaker wasn't such a locker room leader and ignored everyone because he has tenure then he wouldn't be as popular with the boys as he is either.

 

Even if he wasn't doing that it is well known that he was extremely evasive of having his back on the mat especially to people younger than him and not from his "era." Fact of the matter was his era was gone and he seemed to have a hard time admitting it. Gone where the days that people where happy to just be on the same card as Hogan, because they knew it would get them publicity. Hogan just wasn't as popular as he was in the 2nd Golden Age and just being on the card with him wasn't enough to get anywhere near the same coverage. Hell, he was getting booed out of the building in his last appearance on Raw and he was in a spot against a very over heel in Yokozuna and he spent most of 1995 and half of 1996 being the John Cena of the 90's. Half the crowd would boo and the other half cheer. When this guy won't lay down for you and he is obviously in the biggest slump of his career it kinda makes him a bad influence on the rest of the locker room as well.

[justtxyank]

A lot of this is false.

 

Hogan was not being booed out of the building in WCW in 1995 until they did a really REALLY lame heel turn. That's right, he was a heel at the end of 1995 with the story being that his mustache had been shaved and he was heel against Sting. It was dumb and the crowd totally hated it and crapped all over him.

 

PPV buyrates don't backup the idea that being on the card with him wasn't good for you. In 1994 alone, WCW buy rates doubled when Hogan was on the card. When he didn't wrestle the buy rates tanked.

 

The stuff about him not talking to anyone in the lockeroom is again, rumor. This isn't to say he was a good influence in the lockeroom, but in the mod you can't just set "bad" or "good" or "negative." You set personality traits. In order to get Hogan to extremely negative you'd have to set traits that just aren't really true.

[JamHead]

You apparently skimmed through my post and didn't read all of it. I mentioned one time that he was booed out of the building and come to think of it he wasn't even in the spot. May 31, 1993 in the last spot of the night I believe it was Vince has a promo with Yokozuna and mentions the Yokozuna vs Hulk Hogan match at King of the Ring. The crowd boos and starts a "Hogan sucks" chant.

 

In 1995 and 1996 and before the nWo when he was on top babyface in WCW the crowd was very split on Hogan. To many he was seen as an invader from day one and did not belong in WCW. There was one tag team match in particular that he had with Sting some time around Superbrawl or Uncensored when the crowd instantly changed it's pop from to a boo when the music changed from "Man Called Sting" to "American Made." He may have not been booed out of the building at that time, but he was not getting over as a face.

 

Other wrestler's opinions are just that opinions and they are like rectums everyone has 'em, but when you have multiple people coming at you with the same opinion it seems to persuade popular opinion to those of the majority.

[Mattywood]

I seem to recall on the infamous Ultimate Warrior DVD, Bobby Heenan saying that yes, Hogan had his own locker room, but he would still change with the boys. And Ted DiBiase, Sr., talked about in a shoot interview how when he came to the WWF as the Million Dollar Man, Hogan told him it was time to repay him for helping to get him over during their first runs back in the late 70s. DiBiase even said that when got mired in filler matches with Brutus Beefcake and Jimmy Snuka, it was Hogan that took up for him and said that he should be booked better than that. And shortly thereafter, DiBiase was captaining a team against Hogan at Survivor Series, then having a string of meaningful feuds rather than just being booked in filler matches just to get him on a show.

[Teh_Showtime]

You set personality traits. In order to get Hogan to extremely negative you'd have to set traits that just aren't really true.

 

you wouldn't consider Hogan manipulative or egotistical?

[ACCBiggz]

Some of you are acting like Hogan was going around kicking everyone between the legs and giving them wedgies backstage. Good grief. He wasn't a huge negative influence, and he never has been. I'm not saying he's been the greatest ever in the back, but he certainly isn't "extremely negative".

 

I think not having anything set is fine.

[Chriswok]

The biggest issue I have is... trying to decide who to be as Booker! Too many great options! Yet, I don't want to interrupt the Big 2's potential war.

 

Might be Christopher Daniels and book an indie promotion to glory.

[rjhabeeb]

A lot of this is false.

 

Hogan was not being booed out of the building in WCW in 1995 until they did a really REALLY lame heel turn. That's right, he was a heel at the end of 1995 with the story being that his mustache had been shaved and he was heel against Sting. It was dumb and the crowd totally hated it and crapped all over him.

 

PPV buyrates don't backup the idea that being on the card with him wasn't good for you. In 1994 alone, WCW buy rates doubled when Hogan was on the card. When he didn't wrestle the buy rates tanked.

 

The stuff about him not talking to anyone in the lockeroom is again, rumor. This isn't to say he was a good influence in the lockeroom, but in the mod you can't just set "bad" or "good" or "negative." You set personality traits. In order to get Hogan to extremely negative you'd have to set traits that just aren't really true.

end of argument