Help Understanding Popularity and Momentum

[TeemuFoundation]

I've played TEW since the 2004 version, and I'm still not quite sure about how popularity and momentum work. Obviously, I understand the basic gist of it, but I have some questions, and would like to hear everybody's views on the issue.

 

Someone said elsewhere just a while ago that popularity is how well known a worker is in a given area. That seems a bit broken in my view since someone like a Bryan Danielson or John Cena or even Dolph Ziggler should be A* in the US since they work on TV every week on the biggest company in the country. Or does it mean popular in the public eye in general, not in the eyes of the wrestling audience?

 

The other question is momentum. Is momentum a worker's ability to draw money? In wrestling, especially in the current era, there is being arena over - like someone like Bryan or Punk - and then there's being money drawing over - like a Steve Austin or The Rock.

 

Popularity determines segment ratings, and while someone like Punk had really good segments and the crowds were into him, he never really moved numbers or drew money. I think Edge is another pretty good example of this. So, should CM Punk have good popularity, but low momentum? But that seems weird as well, since he was pretty white hot after the pipebomb promo. He cooled down in late 2011, but still he seemed to have a lot of momentum on his side.

 

How would you rate, say, Hulk Hogan in 1993? Everybody in the world knew who Hulk Hogan was, and his segments didn't tank, but he was already past his money drawing peak by that point.

 

What do you think?

 

I'm just trying to make as good a mod as possible.

[Self]

I'd say Popularity is a measure of how many people are willing to (or super excited to) spend time and money to go see that person. It includes hardcore fans, casual fans, and even potential fans. An A* would mean that a massive number of people in the world not only know who the worker is, but are willing to pay to see him perform. Using Dolph Ziggler as an example, I'm not sure how many people know his name outside of WWE's audience (vast within current wrestling fans, but by no means a major part of every household) let alone would spend money to order a PPV he's headlining, or queue for hours in the rain to get his autograph.

 

To me, Momentum is more on an inside-the-wrestling-bubble indication of how well a worker is being presented and booked. So win streaks and turns and storyline wins all give immediate gains to momentum (interest within the promotion's fanbase) but don't do anything for their mainstream appeal. At least not in the short term.

[TeemuFoundation]

I'd say Popularity is a measure of how many people are willing to (or super excited to) spend time and money to go see that person. It includes hardcore fans, casual fans, and even potential fans. An A* would mean that a massive number of people in the world not only know who the worker is, but are willing to pay to see him perform. Using Dolph Ziggler as an example, I'm not sure how many people know his name outside of WWE's audience (vast within current wrestling fans, but by no means a major part of every household) let alone would spend money to order a PPV he's headlining, or queue for hours in the rain to get his autograph.

 

To me, Momentum is more on an inside-the-wrestling-bubble indication of how well a worker is being presented and booked. So win streaks and turns and storyline wins all give immediate gains to momentum (interest within the promotion's fanbase) but don't do anything for their mainstream appeal. At least not in the short term.

That's how I've viewed it, as well. The problem, though, is that Dolph gets big pops and the crowds a generally into his matches. If we're going by money drawing ability, Dolph would have really low popularity, since I don't think anyone's ever ordered a PPV to see Dolph Ziggler. However, low popularity would make his segments tank, and that's not the case, either, since the crowd support usually gives his segments a boost.

 

What do?

[Self]

Popularity determines segment ratings, and while someone like Punk had really good segments and the crowds were into him, he never really moved numbers or drew money. I think Edge is another pretty good example of this. So, should CM Punk have good popularity, but low momentum? But that seems weird as well, since he was pretty white hot after the pipebomb promo. He cooled down in late 2011, but still he seemed to have a lot of momentum on his side.

 

Immediately post pipebomb, I'd give Punk decent popularity. An SWF upper midcarder. He'd been around for a while, lots of people knew him, but he wasn't a megastar or a household name beyond wrestling. His momentum would be through the roof, A*, because within the confines of the show he was the most fascinating character in the world, and people were dying to see what would happen next. That awesome momentum would help his segments, and with consistently good booking, his popularity would be increasing.

 

When he cooled down, his momentum would be much lower. His popularity might be a bit higher, as the pipebomb era helped raise his profile and create more and more fans willing to spend money on his product, but that depends on how effectively you thought he was booked.

 

How would you rate, say, Hulk Hogan in 1993? Everybody in the world knew who Hulk Hogan was, and his segments didn't tank, but he was already past his money drawing peak by that point.

 

Big popularity. Lower momentum. Time Decline (how old was he at this point?) and stale gimmick would further hurt his segments.

 

That's how I've viewed it, as well. The problem, though, is that Dolph gets big pops and the crowds a generally into his matches. If we're going by money drawing ability, Dolph would have really low popularity, since I don't think anyone's ever ordered a PPV to see Dolph Ziggler. However, low popularity would make his segments tank, and that's not the case, either, since the crowd support usually gives his segments a boost.

 

What do?

 

I'd give Dolph Ziggler a 'C' in popularity. Plenty of people are excited to see Dolph perform. Plenty of people buy his merchandise and cheer for him in his matches. But he isn't a megastar. His name doesn't carry beyond the WWE fanbase. And his momentum is all over the place due to inconsistant booking.

[TeemuFoundation]

I don't understand this game.

 

Is a "C" plenty? A "D" is 50, so that's average. That makes a "C" slightly above average. But Dolph gets bigger than slightly above average pops, and they boost his ratings. And he could show up at any indy event in the US and everybody would know who he is.

[Self]

I don't understand this game.

 

Is a "C" plenty? A "D" is 50, so that's average. That makes a "C" slightly above average. But Dolph gets bigger than slightly above average pops, and they boost his ratings. And he could show up at any indy event in the US and everybody would know who he is.

 

Thinking about indy events is a good way of thinking about it. If Dolph Ziggler was fired today, he would be an amazing headliner for every indy promotion that pays the big bucks to bring him in. See Del Rio. See John Morrison. Instant main eventers in indy promotions... while not working for everyone. A local or small company wouldn't be able to get him. Similarly, if he went to TNA (a cult promotion) he'd fit in among the main event players. Might not be the top guy, but he's auto-push to Main Event for sure.

 

C is plenty. C is a fantastic rating. Don't under-estimate a C.

[TeemuFoundation]

I guess the letter grades skew my views. In school, C was bad grade. A B+ was good.

 

Though, still. On a 0-100 scale, 50 is average, and that's a D. Nothing special, average. How is 60 fantastic all of a sudden? The gap between average and fantastic is pretty wide, in mye eyes.

[FlameSnoopy]

50 isn't average. It's above average. 60 isn't fantastic but it's higher than a WWE midcarder. The only persons in the US who have achieved an A* in popularity historically are Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin. '06 Cena would get an A only, even though he was the "megastar" of the company.

[Self]

Ignore my use of the word "fantastic". It's just a word I use a lot. C is really good, but not quite deserving of such a word. B+ on the other hand, that's exceptional. That's fantastic.

[TeemuFoundation]

50 isn't average. It's above average. 60 isn't fantastic but it's higher than a WWE midcarder. The only persons in the US who have achieved an A* in popularity historically are Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin. '06 Cena would get an A only, even though he was the "megastar" of the company.

That's how I've viewed, as well, with the addition of post UFC career Brock Lesnar. Lesnar was, and still is, the biggest draw in UFC history, people outside the wrestling bubble know who he is, and he's moved ratings in the WWE.

 

However, I've started to question my own logic, since guys like Punk, Bryan, Ziggler and others get superstar reactions, but are not stars. I mean, they're stars, but they're not on the level of Austin, Rock and Hogan. Yet sometimes, their pops rival those of Austin, Hogan and Rock.

 

My problem with this is that, in terms of TEW, they don't get the segment ratings they deserve, because I have to set their popularity so low that it's not a realistic depiction anymore.

 

In my view.

 

And how is 50 not average? Add 0 to 100 and divide it by 2, you get their average which is 50.

[Lex Star]

You can't really translate TEW 100% to real-life. Because guys like Punk, even though not many would know who he is outside of being a fan, or their friends being a fan. But as you said, he gets similar reactions/segment ratings to someone like Lesnar, within the wrestling community. But Lesnar potentially would sell more tickets/PPV buys than him. So, it's not really clear-cut, like when Daniel Bryan turned on the Wyatt family, the crowd ERUPTED. Say that crowd reaction was an "A" but say they advertised Lesnar for the next RAW, would Bryan be able to sell as many tickets as Lesnar? Probably not. But they would get similar segment ratings most likely. So you can't take real life as an exact measure of the way TEW works, IMO.

 

You also have a lot of guys in the WWE not being pushed where the should be. A lot of guys are not where their "auto push" would dictate they should be.

 

Like, Daniel Bryan, he is by far one of, if not the most popular worker they have, but he's what? Competing in the midcard for a midcard title. So, his auto push level should be "Main eventer" but Vince has is pushing him as a Midcarder/Upper Midcarder. Regardless where he is on the card, the fans are still into him more than a lot of the "main eventers." I don't know how many tickets he sells generally, but honestly in today's age, its more the WWE name that sells the tickets. This is especially true with the WWE Network, I have it, even though I don't really care about the main eventers outside of Lesnar (part timer) and Rollins. I am actually genuinely more invested in the Midcarders and NXT right now. I care more about Bryan, Rusev, Ziggler, Barrett, etc. than I do Roman Reigns or Orton. Rollins and Lesnar are the only guys in the main event I genuinely care about. There isn't a single guy on the roster that could sell me a ticket, I'd be going to any WWE show I could (if they ever came to my area) because it's WWE, not because so and so is on the card. But I'm not the "average" fan. The average/casual fans might be sold on an advertisement saying Cena or Reigns is on the card. TEW doesn't really separate casual and hardcore fans.

 

I'd say John Cena even though he gets booed by half the crowd, would be Popular, because he sells a lot of tickets and his segments generally would be rated fairly highly. I think John Cena would be a case of Popular but every segment he's in, Vince would be getting the "He's extremely stale!" note from the road agents and he just ignores it. Plus a lot of the fans that boo Cena do it because it's fun and "Cool" not because they genuinely hate him.

 

Also, 50 is average when it's out of 100. But it's not the average popularity amongst the workers. Opening my save, only Jack Bruce is "An Icon" and then there is 9 workers that are exactly "A Huge Star" , then 22 are exactly "A Star", then... you get it. There is A LOT more guys at the "Regional Star" and "Regional Level" than at the "Huge Star" or "Star" levels. Then there is a giant list of "Unknowns" , the only way 50 would be "Average" is if there was an equal amount of mega stars as Unknowns. Basically, if you add up every worker's popularity that are capable of working in any given area, then divide by the amount of workers, the amount of guys in the E range would bring down the average.

 

In TEW terms, C is actually a really respectable rating. It would mean the guy is a TCW Midcarder. That is infinitely more well known than the Main Eventers of Regional Promotions. The main event players in MAW are a mix of D- to D+ and then only in one or two regions, not the entire country. So, you might be a huge fan of MAW, but overall, the main eventers are basically unknowns to most of the country. They're all E- or worse to most of the USA.

 

Right now guys who are in the D range are Lower Midcarders in TCW. The average wrestler in reality would be a jobber for TCW (International level)

[TeemuFoundation]

Maybe TEW should have mainstream popularity and company specific overness seperately.

[effigies]

TEW doesn't make use of mainstream pop really, outside of the "left for a movie" type events. Pop should be viewed as interest from people looking into wrestling. Hulk's an A* pop because in his heyday, everyone who knew anything about wrestling knew Hulk.

 

Pop is persistent from company to company. Momentum is how much the fans want to see a guy. Crowd pops are more momentum based. Zack Ryder's heyday wasn't a rise in popularity, but a build in momentum which they then killed dead. The Nexus didn't get super popular, they had high momentum.

 

The Shield is the perfect example. The debut gave them high momentum. They then had lots of successful angles beating people down, got plenty of camera time, worked with very popular workers, then after being built up got a winning streak of matches. Effective use of momentum and solid booking to build upper midcard/ main eventers.

 

If I book a guy in PSW and NYCW, let's say Matt Keith. They are both Tristates promotions, so the pop is the same. In PSW I build Matt to be a Champ. He gets big wins, success in promos, time to work with the rest of my top guys, he'll then have high momentum. Meanwhile, in NYCW, he's there to make my vets look good. So he loses his feuds with my big stars, his wins come over my midcard, and he doesn't get consistent promo time. His momentum would be much lower, even though his pop is the same.

 

Think ADR. Before the split with WWE, he was directionless and just a body to fill match time. Crowds were meh. In LU, he's certainly not more popular in the US, but he is presented as a big deal. Promo time, lots of success, consistent booking, and he gets thunderous reactions.

 

a guy with high pop is going to draw attention, tickets, ratings, but a guy with high momentum gets reactions. That's why high momentum is easiest way to gain pop, everything you do is heightened.

[AfRoMaN36]

The way I see it is popularity means how much of a draw you are, momentum is how hot you are at the moment. Popularity effects segment ratings in the game. But matches use a combination of both to generate crowd heat.

 

So Self's Hogan example would be correct. In 1993, he would have an A* Overness, but maybe a C momentum and a stale gimmick. As would Cena right now.

 

I disagree that Dolph would be a C though. That is way too low. He should be an upper midcarder in the WWE, which would give him at best a B popularity. He would have shoddy momentum though, but it wouldn't be outrageous if he won the title today.

[K-Nection]

Cena nowadays still would be A. I am almost certain Daniel Bryan would be atleast B+ if not an A. Randy Orton B or B+. Dolph I think is about C+ maybe B- but I think that might be his RL pop ceiling as well. CM Punk would have dropped to B+ because of rarely having TV since leaving. I think these are a good measuring stick to go with.

[TeemuFoundation]

In TEW, it would be hard to have the SHIELD have great momentum from the start, since their debut would be a run in on the Survivor Series main event, and in TEW that doesn't generate debut momentum, and since the general public had no idea who they were, their popularity would be so low that their official debut segment would tank, setting their initial momentum as very low.

 

And Bryan is problematic, too, since he still gets the biggest pops of the night, but his momentum is very low at the moment. If you go by pops, he should be an A*, but since he's not a money draw, he should be way lower than that. And the pops can't be explained by momentum, either, since he has none at the moment.

[Self]

In TEW, it would be hard to have the SHIELD have great momentum from the start, since their debut would be a run in on the Survivor Series main event, and in TEW that doesn't generate debut momentum, and since the general public had no idea who they were, their popularity would be so low that their official debut segment would tank, setting their initial momentum as very low.

 

I don't think the Shield came in with amazing momentum. It was good, sure, and got great gimmick ratings, but it was a build of multiple weeks of successful attacks (perhaps with those three being Non-Rated against victims rated on Overness). They didn't come in on utterly terrible popularity either. As former RoH champion, Seth Rollins could have been on a D. Dean Ambrose was a name on the indies (E, maybe E+) and Roman Reigns is from a famous family (F to F+). Add to that any Storyline heat. What story did they come in on? CM Punk vs Ryback? That's was fairly hot. And when that initial storyline finished, they no doubt came out 'Very Strong' in it, which would send their momentum even higher. The Shield weren't made in one night. They were built. Which strong, consistent booking and the right three guys with the right skills, right gimmicks, right chemistry.

 

My popularity guesses are likely a little low. I'm used to CGC-level promotions. Not SWF. So a C is an upper midcarder who can capably headline television. A B+ is an unheard of super-megastar. Likely lower than others would say.

 

And Bryan is problematic, too, since he still gets the biggest pops of the night, but his momentum is very low at the moment. If you go by pops, he should be an A*, but since he's not a money draw, he should be way lower than that. And the pops can't be explained by momentum, either, since he has none at the moment.

 

Daniel Bryan has pretty damned good momentum if you ask me. I cannot for the life of me understand why people think he's being buried when he wins a lot, main events countless TV's, and gets ample screen time.

 

Match and Angle ratings aren't the measure of how loud the "pop" is. That crowd noise is part of it, sure, but there's more to it than that. It's the overall effectiveness of the angle. To the people at home. To the people who react with the wallets, not their voices. To every fan of the promotion.

[FlameSnoopy]

Cena nowadays still would be A. I am almost certain Daniel Bryan would be atleast B+ if not an A. Randy Orton B or B+. Dolph I think is about C+ maybe B- but I think that might be his RL pop ceiling as well. CM Punk would have dropped to B+ because of rarely having TV since leaving. I think these are a good measuring stick to go with.

 

No way anyone other than Cena or Lesnar have A pop. I don't watch wrestling and haven't watched in ages, but that's just crazy. CM Punk was a bigger draw than Bryan for sure, but not even Punk ever reached A pop. No upper midcarder in WWE would even be close to B pop, that is main event popularity.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Popularity = Drawing power, not who had the biggest crowd reaction of the night...

[SirMichaelJordan]

In TEW, it would be hard to have the SHIELD have great momentum from the start, since their debut would be a run in on the Survivor Series main event, and in TEW that doesn't generate debut momentum, and since the general public had no idea who they were, their popularity would be so low that their official debut segment would tank, setting their initial momentum as very low.

 

And Bryan is problematic, too, since he still gets the biggest pops of the night, but his momentum is very low at the moment. If you go by pops, he should be an A*, but since he's not a money draw, he should be way lower than that. And the pops can't be explained by momentum, either, since he has none at the moment.

 

Neither of those guys had/has low momentum at the moment.

 

Shield debuted in a hot storyline and got a success in an angle. From there on they was in the hottest storyline in the company.

[Peter.1986]

No way anyone other than Cena or Lesnar have A pop. I don't watch wrestling and haven't watched in ages, but that's just crazy. CM Punk was a bigger draw than Bryan for sure, but not even Punk ever reached A pop. No upper midcarder in WWE would even be close to B pop, that is main event popularity.

 

It's hard to try and guess it in real terms.

 

 

The Wwe are worldwide, but the show is probably national. With the network and the marketing Wwe is A* but in TEW terms as a company I don't think it's near that

 

Regarding wrestlers,

 

The rock A* without a doubt.

 

Cena A* from a marketing point of view, but B+ to A in tew terms, with his gimmick stale

 

What about the undertaker? Hulk hogan? Sting? Etc

 

Undertaker would be an A Id say pooularity wise, but God knows what he would be in TeW terms. That's why I think they need a second pop rating. For people who are no longer at their peak, undertaker would be an A in this, meaning it would gradually bring his normal pop back up while we he was away.

 

Let's face it if cena left the Wwe now and returned next wrestlemania his pop would be much much higher in when he returned.

 

I think only Brock is an A of the current active roster,

 

Triple h, big show, kane may be around a A-B+ (in the secondary pop if they brought it in)

 

At the moment (in the game) I don't think there any use in bring people back because they are at the pop they last left the company at, and the reason you let them go is because you had nothing for them.

 

My greatest example is hulk hogan, when he went to WCW he would have dropped below the A* he was at wwf, but the next time he appeared at Wwe he would have been an A*

 

 

I may not have explained it right but I know what I mean lol

[SirMichaelJordan]

The way I see it is popularity means how much of a draw you are, momentum is how hot you are at the moment. Popularity effects segment ratings in the game. But matches use a combination of both to generate crowd heat.

 

So Self's Hogan example would be correct. In 1993, he would have an A* Overness, but maybe a C momentum and a stale gimmick. As would Cena right now.

 

I disagree that Dolph would be a C though. That is way too low. He should be an upper midcarder in the WWE, which would give him at best a B popularity. He would have shoddy momentum though, but it wouldn't be outrageous if he won the title today.

 

It depends on how the other workers on the roster are rated, he can push at upper mid card at C if nothing was overrated. a C would actually be fine as it translate into Recognizable when you use the filters in TEW which is really a stretch for him TBH. I personally would give him a C- which translates between Regional Star & Recognizable. His momentum would be at a nice level since he's always in good matches and angles.

 

Same with the NXT guys, someone would make a argument that all the top guys in NXT should have decent popularity based on crowd reaction but in honesty those guys should just be starting out with nice momentum and popularity simliar to the company they are working/worked for.

[dpoolez]

Id say TEW pop is how strong of an overall draw you are. That being said, nobody except for maybe The Rock would be A*. Cena, Lesnar, and Taker would be A. Punk, Bryan, and Triple H would probably be B+ and would be strong Bs for sure. Orton would be a strong B and Batista, Sting, Rollins, Reigns, etc. Would be somewhere between B- and low B. Guys like Ambrose, Ziggler, Sheamus, Big Show and Kane would probably be high C+.

[Peter.1986]

Id say TEW pop is how strong of an overall draw you are. That being said, nobody except for maybe The Rock would be A*. Cena, Lesnar, and Taker would be A. Punk, Bryan, and Triple H would probably be B+ and would be strong Bs for sure. Orton would be a strong B and Batista, Sting, Rollins, Reigns, etc. Would be somewhere between B- and low B. Guys like Ambrose, Ziggler, Sheamus, Big Show and Kane would probably be high C+.

 

I agree with this. But as I previously mentioned if kane and big show retired, and came back in over a years time, they would be reviewed as much higher pop than C+. Same with the undertaker was he stopped wrestling full time? I don't think he would be, but he is definately an A when he reappears

[Juce]

I just don't understand how momentum effects promotions.

 

As WCW 2001 I am consistently booking B- to B+ shows and yet my popularity has dropped to C's and C+'s in the US. I have a small TV deal and PPV so I should be gaining popularity. It doesn't make sense to me.