Public Beta Reaction Thread

[Genadi]

It’s not a simulator but you people are talking about taking this wrasslin simulator game to Steam. Steam users aren’t gonna get this stuff lol they’ll tear it to pieces even if you add all these customization features. There’s just too much detail demanded by the niche audience

 

Adam himself calls it a wrestling simulator so I'm not sure why you're saying that

 

Also.... https://store.steampowered.com/app/529700/Total_Extreme_Wrestling_2013/

 

 

Thread is really starting to derail again, lets try to stay on topic.

[FlightlessGypsy]

The game costs $10 more than Kenshi and Factorio which are also personal projects spun into big games. Having a niche game is not an excuse for poor design.

 

 

 

I believe in games making as much money as possible to reward the developers financially, promote the franchise/brand to new audiences, and providing funds for a better development cycle the next time around. To do this you need the widest audience possible. The politics of the situation aren't really a concern

 

This might not be what Adam has planned for his small company and it shouldn't be expected to run on marketing rules if he is happy with his returning core fanbase. New players are great but the last thing he would want is to lose his loyals, no? If Adam is proud and he makes his target financial goal, then this year will have been a success despite expectations put on the game. He knows what formula works and to take such a risk while giving a cut away to a store client that had no investment after sticking to his business plan for so could end in disaster. GDS is just one of the last crazy survival stories when it comes to independent publishing and to bring that to an end would be sad to see, I think anyway. We obviously both love this series and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Just trying to see the pros and cons to both choices.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I was part of the disappointed but still hopeful party when the open beta began.

[FlightlessGypsy]

I agree with you completely that the delay is the best possible thing right now, I'm just stating that if it isn't improved drastically then I don't see myself buying it, unfortunately

 

Totally understandable! I was just unsure by your wording if you were aware of the delay is all. I think it will be in much better shape, he'll be working overtime as we speak.

[ZMAN]

That's just not the reality of the situation. Here is an incredibly niche game built by one person that is a database front end that is priced competitively, has great reviews and is evolving all the time.

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1184770/The_Political_Process/

 

Haha I’m pretty sure there’s more people willing to put time and energy into politics than “what if WCW didn’t ruin Bret Hart”

[Genadi]

Haha I’m pretty sure there’s more people willing to put time and energy into politics than “what if WCW didn’t ruin Bret Hart”

 

Edit - Thought you were replying to me. I'm out for the night, tried to make a point that seems lost now. Hope things improve this week

[Lucas]

@ZMan, makes absolutely no sense to laugh progression off and want a niche to remain a niche, particularly operating practically solely out of this website and community forum (and forums themselves are a dying breed to new audiences)

 

I think also, you're underestimating the numbers of people who love GM/Universe mode in 2K mode and would probably love something more simulated.

 

Steam has a very diverse audience and there's many popular simulators on the platform, including Sports ones.

 

Don't understand why on earth you wouldn't want to put your product in the faces of as many potential customers as possible, just because you're afraid of the majority.

 

Absolutely nuts, to coin a phrase of yours. I'm through with engaging on this issue, it's just reminded me why I don't frequent these boards, just constant flaming.

 

I'm not here to convince you, just sharing my own views.

[Bwfccrazy1972]

Is anyone else seeing big discrepancies in contract requests? Running 5 shows a month on a medium sized company (4 tv and one event) and workers are asking 1200 per show on an exclusive handshake but want 21000 or more for a monthly written. Why would I pay 21000 plus when I can sign the for 6000 seems pointless giving any written deals

[Derek B]

Just a reminder....

 

The thread was previously locked for people breaking the GDS forum rules. Keep posts within those guildelines and if you find yourself repeating things you have already said, particulary about any known issues, take a break from the forums for a bit and allow us to focus work on the game and forum maintenance in general.

 

It's great that people are passionate about TEW and care so much to have such powerful reactions, it shows that people care incredibly deeply which is amazing. But channeling that passion unconstructively doesn't make the game any better, doesn't make anyone any happier and doesn't help anyone enjoy the forums. The more focused everyone is on helping with the beta, the better so with that in mind....

 

The TEW2020 Suggestions Forum is for suggestions to the game, from minor things like a better placement of a button to major suggestions that may be for future games.

 

The TEW2020 Mods Forum is for all your mod based needs. There are already some great mods for the User Interface (Kam's has been particular popular), some alt pics for workers, logos for companies, hype for TEW2020 versions of popular mods and more.

 

The TEW2020 Technical Support Forum features links to the most recent patch updates pinned to the top of the forum and is where you post all game related errors (Please read the Technical Support Rules before posting). This forum will be extremely active during beta time with almost daily patches for the game, which is normal at this stage, so check in frequently for a while, your game should tell you if a new patch is available but it's good to check anyway. There is also a typos thread which is where any mistakes within the Cornellverse should go.

 

.......

 

Wherever you are on the site, it would be ideal (though not required) if people could try to keep posts about the same topics within the same thread. There are many Cornellverse company specifics threads gathered together HERE that can provide great insight into many different parts of the Cornellverse with many creative ideas. There are also many fun threads for things like creative ideas, naming tag teams and stables, and posting random screenshots of things happening in your game. There is also a Small Questions Thread that is perfect for Small Questions.

 

Hopefully this will help to refocus everyone's energy to a positive place and help newer players to find what they are looking for, while also helping to reduce forum maintenance to have everything where it should be to make it as easy as possible for everyone to find what they want and need. All the best to everyone, let's all have fun.

[Eastshire]

I get this sentiment, but obviously Adam wouldn't have to delay the game less than a week before the release if everything was rainbows and butterflies.

 

From the developers guide:

 

"The feedback in general continues to be excellent, with a lot of the testers having said that they can't now play TEW2016 because it's so lacking compared to the new game - which is, of course, what we're aiming for."

 

"Based on their reactions and my own play tests, I don't think there's any doubt that the game is light years ahead of TEW2016 and will be very well received."

 

 

Those comments above don't seem to be the same for most of the people commentating, maybe that has more to do with people are more likely to complain in a beta than praise. Maybe they just have to get used to everything. I am not sure, but obviously something went wrong.

 

You also need to remember that, in general, people are more likely to complain than praise. It's human nature to focus on the negative rather than the positive. It's almost a certainty that people dissatisfied with the UI are over-represented in this thread.

 

Human nature then has us take that into account and try to then discount the genuine opinion of those with an issue in favor of the "silent majority."

 

I spent 3 days so far playing the game. My opinion of the UI is much better know than it was on Thursday. And that, at the end of the day, is my problem with most of the UI complaints: they came too early. The first couple of days spent on a new version of a favorite software is mainly filled with bad feelings because you are learning new things about something that's changed.

 

For example, I hated the ribbon in Excel when it came out. I tried to find a way to disable it. It's now one of my favorite features (though it still has issues).

 

Adam is a 20-year developer who is developing projects like it's 20 years ago. It's not "vitriol" to suggest that he hasn't kept up with trends in game design when he is releasing these types of interfaces and using the technologies that he's using. He could build a better interface, with a more modern design and features that people expect such as UI scaling in one of the free engines in a few days. This isn't a time issue, it almost certainly took him longer to build it this way than the modern way.

 

This is a fair point. It also feels a bit like complaining that pigs like to roll in mud. There was never any reason to believe that this UI would look or function any differently when every game GDS has ever released, up to and including Mafia Capo just 3 months ago, has had this style of UI.

 

The management of this game is fairly poor. A lack of a Steam release, the biggest gaming platform in the world, speaks to that as does the continued use of outdated designs and tech. As much as I feel disheartened to use the word, my overwhelming feeling as a developer looking at TEW2020 is that it feels so amateur. There are first year college students who are turning out more polished products than this and that's pretty damning and personally as a fan quite depressing. You can slice it any way that you want but there's screens in TEW2020 with over forty different buttons or UI Elements on it and that's crazy.

 

Look, I love Steam more than the next guy (Curse you Epic Games Store!). But it's hard to take a lack of a Steam release as a criticism of the development of the game. Marketing and development are different things. And yes I really wish he'd put it on Steam, heck if he does so in a year I'd probably buy it again.

 

I feel that we're heading towards a Vince McMahon type situation, to use an analogy relevant to wrestling fans. Vince's way of thinking is very old and although he's the industry leader in a semi-niche market, he's there because of a lack of competitive alternatives. Moreover he's surrounded by people who are telling him how brilliant everything is and when criticism is offered, his comrades run to his defence. While that may not be a big problem on an internet forum, in any creative industry that is cancer to the project and sinks them faster than almost anything else.

 

There's so many factors that go into the future so it's pretty presumptuous to say "this should happen", but I'd probably argue that he should spend the next 3 months bug fixing and then move onto a 2022 release which uses modern game design fundamentals. There is no shortage of tutorials, literature, examples and code samples for him to upskill upon - it has never been easier to learn than it is now, especially if he's willing to invest money into this.

 

Again, it's 2020 and the game doesn't have a window resizing option. There's no excuse for that. It's a 5 minute job to introduce it.

 

You maybe right. So who amongst us is the Young Bucks of professional wrestling video games?

 

My opinion: the UI is passable, especially once a skin is used. A few choices are strange: contract release is especially buried, for example. The biggest grip I have is not having an editor option for product. I like that product gives you the audience's demands that you need to meet but I'd like more flexibility in setting it up in the first place.

[ZMAN]

Eh. Not my hill to die on. Overall I enjoy the game, it could use some minor touch ups. I’m not sensitive about the price because hey I enjoy a wrestling sim and there aren’t a whole lot of options to choose from and I feel like this product is on the right path. I have faith in Adams updates and the mod community. I’m gonna go run a rock n roll fed with Jack Bruce

[awesomenessofme1]

Is anyone else seeing big discrepancies in contract requests? Running 5 shows a month on a medium sized company (4 tv and one event) and workers are asking 1200 per show on an exclusive handshake but want 21000 or more for a monthly written. Why would I pay 21000 plus when I can sign the for 6000 seems pointless giving any written deals

 

You don't need to make it monthly in order to sign them to an exclusive written deal. It will be more expensive than a handshake PPA, but you can sign them to a written PPA.

[Bull]

Is anyone else seeing big discrepancies in contract requests? Running 5 shows a month on a medium sized company (4 tv and one event) and workers are asking 1200 per show on an exclusive handshake but want 21000 or more for a monthly written. Why would I pay 21000 plus when I can sign the for 6000 seems pointless giving any written deals

 

it a trade off for exclusivity I imagine.. You are taking away other possible sources of revenue that might get working with other companies by offering an exclusive written deal, there for they want to be compensated accordingly for only working for you.

[Eastshire]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Xendarii" data-cite="Xendarii" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Adam's not releasing it for a niche price though. Which is fine if the game lives up to that price. Mechanically it probably does that this year as much as it did 2016. Concerning UI and UX, which <strong>is</strong> an extremely important part of the game, it doesn't at all. Not in the slightest.<p> </p><p> Also, there's tons of "niche" games on Steam. Literally thousands.</p><p> </p><p> Also, FM has even more detail than TEW and is a bestseller on Steam. The gaming community doesn't work like you think it does.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It's worth remembering that people have different opinions on what qualifies as niche pricing. I definitely see this as niche priced but then I see anything under $50 as niche priced. Clearly you make that distinction at a lower number.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MrCreative" data-cite="MrCreative" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>@ZMan, makes absolutely no sense to laugh progression off and want a niche to remain a niche, particularly operating practically solely out of this website and community forum (and forums themselves are a dying breed to new audiences)<p> </p><p> I think also, you're underestimating the numbers of people who love GM/Universe mode in 2K mode and would probably love something more simulated. </p><p> </p><p> Steam has a very diverse audience and there's many popular simulators on the platform, including Sports ones.</p><p> </p><p> Don't understand why on earth you wouldn't want to put your product in the faces of as many potential customers as possible, just because you're afraid of the majority.</p><p> </p><p> Absolutely nuts, to coin a phrase of yours. I'm through with engaging on this issue, it's just reminded me why I don't frequent these boards, just constant flaming.</p><p> </p><p> I'm not here to convince you, just sharing my own views.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> If Steam were free, you'd be right. But ever publisher has to make the decision based on whether they think the increase in sales would 1) make up for the cut which goes to Steam 2) is worth the possible negativity that Steam reviews.</p><p> </p><p> For people without a pre-existing distribution platform, that's an easier choice, but if you can accomplish your goals without using Steam and you don't see it making you more money, why would you?</p>

[FlightlessGypsy]

It's so easy to get 1000+ hours out of these games. That's what I try and judge a good price by. I've been buying $60 12 hour single player games most of my life and most of those I can't run on their respective systems anymore. I have always thought that maybe previous games should drop heavily in price when they are succeeded but I've bought multiple licenses for TEW and WMMA due to lost keys (even when there were working cracks about) because I knew I'd the hour to dollar ratio was insane.

[Skummy]

When differentiating between valid and invalid criticism, I think unfounded and unwarranted speculation about the personal failings of the testing team, and spending paragraphs effectively calling them suck-ups and not suited to the job, falls well within the "invalid" category.

[rufas2000]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Damo" data-cite="Damo" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That's just not the reality of the situation. Here is an incredibly niche game built by one person that is a database front end that is priced competitively, has great reviews and is evolving all the time.<p> </p><p> <a href="https://store.steampowered.com/app/1184770/The_Political_Process/" rel="external nofollow">https://store.steampowered.com/app/1184770/The_Political_Process/</a></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Wow that looks interesting. I'm always scared off by "early access" but this sounds like exactly the political game I've been looking for, one that covers everything a politician does instead of one that focuses just on the election or just on policy. Plus the price is very reasonable.</p><p> </p><p> As far as TEW 2020 I'm disappointed so far but I also know Adam will do his best to fix it up. So I'm planning to put it aside for a bit, try not to check in on the progress as much, play TEW 2016 if I want a TEW fix or if I want a game Icewind Dale on my iPad has become my time sink. </p><p> </p><p> I think this is the best way for me to avoid frustration and disappointment. Be patient and let Adam (along with the board's help) fix it up. It'll probably be great and on the slim chance it isn't 2016 is still a fine game. No need for me to stress. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[Xendarii]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Eastshire" data-cite="Eastshire" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I spent 3 days so far playing the game. My opinion of the UI is much better know than it was on Thursday. And that, at the end of the day, is my problem with most of the UI complaints: they came too early. The first couple of days spent on a new version of a favorite software is mainly filled with bad feelings because you are learning new things about something that's changed.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I really can't stand that argument because what you're doing by saying that is essentially denying me the ability to judge whether I'm liking something or not on first glance. A game shouldn't force me to spend several days playing it until I get somewhat accustomed to its UI/UX, especially if the UI/UX is so important for it.</p><p> </p><p> At this point, I'd much rather have TEW 2020 looking exactly as TEW 2016 did. TEW 2016 wasn't pretty in any way, but it was relatively functional, and I was okay with the UI/UX <strong>at first glance</strong>. I didn't have to get used to it. Almost every aspect of the UI/UX of TEW 2020 is worse than it has been in 2016. That's part of why I'm so upset. I was looking forward to playing a new version of this game with improved features, instead I'm getting a new version with improved features and a UI/UX that makes it unplayable for me. It's not only not an upgrade to the last iteration, it's an incredibly huge <strong>downgrade</strong>. Adam made it <strong>significantly worse</strong>.</p>

[Eastshire]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Xendarii" data-cite="Xendarii" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I really can't stand that argument because what you're doing by saying that is essentially denying me the ability to judge whether I'm liking something or not on first glance. A game shouldn't force me to spend several days playing it until I get somewhat accustomed to its UI/UX, especially if the UI/UX is so important for it.<p> </p><p> At this point, I'd much rather have TEW 2020 looking exactly as TEW 2016 did. TEW 2016 wasn't pretty in any way, but it was relatively functional, and I was okay with the UI/UX <strong>at first glance</strong>. I didn't have to get used to it. Almost every aspect of the UI/UX of TEW 2020 is worse than it has been in 2016. That's part of why I'm so upset. I was looking forward to playing a new version of this game with improved features, instead I'm getting a new version with improved features and a UI/UX that makes it unplayable for me. It's not only not an upgrade to the last iteration, it's an incredibly huge <strong>downgrade</strong>. Adam made it <strong>significantly worse</strong>.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> We have the saying "Don't judge a book by its cover." for a reason. Your first reaction isn't unimportant, but it shouldn't be most important either.</p><p> </p><p> But it seems unlikely that you and I would come to an agreement on what works well as I never made peace with 2016 and gave it up. 2020 has been, so far for me, a major improvement. Adam made it significantly better. If it looked like 2016, it would probably be a hard pass for me.</p><p> </p><p> This, of course, is the fundamental problem with anything. People want and need different things. I've spent way too many hours playing WMMA5 recently. That TEW2020 is in many ways a spiritual successor of WMMA5 is probably why I like it so much.</p>

[FlightlessGypsy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Xendarii" data-cite="Xendarii" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I really can't stand that argument because what you're doing by saying that is essentially denying me the ability to judge whether I'm liking something or not on first glance. A game shouldn't force me to spend several days playing it until I get somewhat accustomed to its UI/UX, especially if the UI/UX is so important for it.<p> </p><p> At this point, I'd much rather have TEW 2020 looking exactly as TEW 2016 did. TEW 2016 wasn't pretty in any way, but it was relatively functional, and I was okay with the UI/UX <strong>at first glance</strong>. I didn't have to get used to it. Almost every aspect of the UI/UX of TEW 2020 is worse than it has been in 2016. That's part of why I'm so upset. I was looking forward to playing a new version of this game with improved features, instead I'm getting a new version with improved features and a UI/UX that makes it unplayable for me. It's not only not an upgrade to the last iteration, it's an incredibly huge <strong>downgrade</strong>. Adam made it <strong>significantly worse</strong>.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> From what we've seen and have had available to us up to this point, I agree. It's pretty bad. I don't want to touch the game until an attempt at a fix is made.</p>

[Derek DiBenedetto]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Eastshire" data-cite="Eastshire" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> This is a fair point. It also feels a bit like complaining that pigs like to roll in mud. There was never any reason to believe that this UI would look or function any differently when every game GDS has ever released, up to and including Mafia Capo just 3 months ago, has had this style of UI.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well, just to clarify: No one was claimed to be given 'headaches' by my UI design for Mafia Capo, and it does indeed scale reasonably well if a player sets their system to 125%, etc. In fact, many praised the UI in Mafia Capo as being fairly nice to look at and it did minimize clicking typical for text sims pretty successfully.</p><p> </p><p> I myself abandoned VB6 as a dev platform several games ago for many of the reasons described here; lack of flexibility, design compromises in working with an older engine, and to be more modern and move with the times. Now I can develop for multiple platforms (Windows, Mac and even Linux, if I cared enough) and advanced UI controls/behaviors are built right into the language.</p><p> </p><p> But I also stuck with VB6 for a long time because it was easier to stay with something familiar, so I totally get it. There was a big learning curve, and older code had to converted over. It was time-consuming and frustrating at times.</p><p> </p><p> But as for TEW20, I think Adam's track record of listening to fans speaks for itself, and I believe the final product will be solid and good one that most fans will appreciate.</p>

[FlightlessGypsy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Derek DiBenedetto" data-cite="Derek DiBenedetto" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Well, just to clarify: No one was claimed to be given 'headaches' by my UI design for Mafia Capo, and it does indeed scale reasonably well if a player sets their system to 125%, etc. In fact, many praised the UI in Mafia Capo as being fairly nice to look at and it did minimize clicking typical for text sims pretty successfully.<p> </p><p> I myself abandoned VB6 as a dev platform several games ago for many of the reasons described here; lack of flexibility, design compromises in working with an older engine, and to be more modern and move with the times. Now I can develop for multiple platforms (Windows, Mac and even Linux, if I cared enough) and advanced UI controls/behaviors are built right into the language.</p><p> </p><p> But I also stuck with VB6 for a long time because it was easier to stay with something familiar, so I totally get it. There was a big learning curve, and older code had to converted over. It was time-consuming and frustrating at times.</p><p> </p><p> But as for TEW20, I think Adam's track record of listening to fans speaks for itself, and I believe the final product will be solid and good one that most fans will appreciate.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Exactly what I wanted to hear, thanks for clarifying. I'm sure it'll be heavily improved with every annual too, almost like when 2K took over the WWE rights from THQ and had a fresh wipe for lack of better example. It took a few years before it really stood on it's own as a revamp. It looked nice and held a higher resolution but took many iterations before the engine peaked.</p>

[Night Robin]

I've spent way too many hours playing WMMA5 recently. That TEW2020 is in many ways a spiritual successor of WMMA5 is probably why I like it so much.

 

I'm starting to think that this might be why I'm not having the problems with the game that some others are.

 

Granted, I did change the game's skin, but I don't have a problem with the layout of anything any more than I have with the past games. Yeah, I don't know where every option is yet, but I'll figure it out in time.

[LucasLutkus]

After a few days building my personal mod and testing it for the two months in different scenarios, I also can say that I will be buying the game when it comes out.

 

It is certainly worse than TEW 2016 in many areas specially the UI and UX, the terrible autobooker and the inability to scroll and filter many things, but it also has a lot of improvements that are good to see.

 

I am excited to know that Adam is working to fix those UI and UX issues and hopefully the finished product will be much better.

[PlatYellow]

I'll comeback in 3 months, when hopefully the game is more stable.

[Forgotmyusername]

Tried to post this yesterday and both threads got locked. One of them got locked while I was typing up my post.

 

Been playing since EWR. I love these games. Ryland is nothing short of a genius to have started making them in C+ or Java or whatever he used (its been 18 years and I dont remember the exact details lol)

 

I always give the UI a pass in these games. It isnt great usually but the mod community helps it out. But, and it seems this a common complaint, 2020 has worse UI than the games did in 2002. It is very offputting, to the point where the mod community I dont think can fix it. The lack of functionality (arrow keys, mouse wheel) is bizarre, as is using yellow for the top stats.

 

These issues shouldnt exist, I really dont know how it got passed the beta testers (if there was any), but its really hurting my experience. User interface and ease of accessibility need to be a priority in a game like this.

 

In nearly two decades of playing EWR TEW and being on forums for this game, this is the only time I have ever seen questions like "how do I fire someone" come up consistently. And they are not isolated questions, from new players. I think that says a lot.