A Deep Dive Into Products

MainOffender · April 27, 2020

I wasn’t sure whether to post this in General Discussion (because I think it has useful information) or here in Suggestions (because it has… suggestions). Anyway, I went down a rabbit hole of studying the new products (remember when we could go outside???) and these are my findings. I went through and compiled all the product "consequences" and then attempted to figure out 1) how to trigger them and 2) how severe are the penalties.

My findings aren’t guaranteed to be accurate obviously (I am not Adam) and in particular my numbers are rough estimates. That said, this does get under the hood a bit so if you’re the kind of player who doesn’t want to know how the sausage is made (does such a sweet little angel exist?) turn back now. Also, I did all my testing on Beta #3 so if things have changed since then I’ll just go kick rocks. At the very least, this document should be useful for people looking to design custom products.

Here’s my TL;DR thoughts before I start going through the individual consequences.

<div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">1) </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">I didn’t think the old Product system was good and was looking forward to this upgrade. I think tailor made products are better than individually made products, largely because those user-made products all end up very same-y to avoid penalties and don’t explore the game. </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;"> </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">

</div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">2) </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">Players, myself included, are too worried about avoiding penalties. </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;"> </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">

</div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">3) </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">That said, the new products are too focused on punitive consequences. </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;"> </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">

</div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">4) </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">I’d hoped choosing a product would feel like choosing a civilization in Civ. Fun and flavorful. Instead, it largely feels like choosing which combination of penalties you hate the least. </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;"> </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">

</div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">5) </div></div><div style="margin-left:25px;"><div style="margin-left:25px;">With some tweaks, I still think this could turn out great!</div></div>

Let’s dive into the various sections of CONSEQUENCES:

<div style="text-align:center;">-LUCHA DE APUESTA-</div>

(Special effect) A lucha de apuesta is a big deal and is taken very seriously. I’m not sure why this is formatted differently than the other consequences or positioned at the top while it’s also covered at the bottom. That said, this is great! It immediately gives flavor to lucha companies. It’s also the only (special effect) in the game.

-MATCH RATIO-</div>

Fans will expect events to be ___% matches and ___% angles.

The fans will expect TV shows to be ___% matches and ___% angles.

Happily, these are still flexible, so you can squeeze an angle or two in even when your product is 100% matches. Send ‘em home, Okada.

<div style="text-align:center;">-MATCH RATINGS-</div>

Matches are rated on a ratio of between __:__ in-ring action/popularity.

Matches are rated on a ratio of between __:__ and __:__ in-ring action/popularity depending on what gets the rest rating. I really like how clearly this is laid out and the variation throughout. This gives products some interesting identities, particularly something like Guerilla Warfare that rates in-ring performance heavily or REALLY HEAVILY. I think that’s the only product with two ratios on the same side of 50:50. I’d like to see that mechanic further explored.

--MATCH INTENSITY—</div>

The style is very easy on the workers and so produces far less wear and tear on their bodies over time..

This lucha-based style is easy on the workers and so produces much less wear and tear on their bodies over time.

This is a very physical style of wrestling and can be hard on the bodies of the workers over time.

This intensely physical style results in a high level of wear and tear on the bodies of the workers.

This style is hard on the workers due to its physical intensity and the risk of injury from all the high-impact moves.

This hardcore style leads to a high level of general wear and tear on the bodies of the workers and injuries are also common.

This dangerous style is punishingly hard on the bodies of the workers.

Good, good. Beat up your wrestlers. Moving on…

--MATCH RISK—</div>

FYI -- Your road agent will warn you about faulty match set-ups but not if your risk is too high. This is why you’re fired, Arn.

Fans expect straight match types with no gimmicks. I can’t figure out what this note does or how to upset the fans who want it. You can’t use high content or injury risk, but that’s covered below. Match set-ups like cage, barbed wire, etc, are also covered elsewhere. I was able to book gimmick finishes like First Blood and multi-man matches like triple threats without penalty with this note on in a Faux MMA company. I would think those would be the “gimmicks” so maybe this isn’t hitting the way it should? Lacks clarity!

Fans will be upset by dangerous, controversial, or bloody match types. Can’t go beyond average content risk or injury risk without triggering “Extremely poor match type.”

Fans will be put off by match types that are too extreme. Can’t go beyond average content risk or injury risk without triggering “Poor choice of match.” Here’s the first case we have of scaling penalties. But would a user ever use a High Risk match regardless of how soft the penalty? I’d argue no. Instead, would it be better to let users at this level access High Risk (but not Very High which is reserved for true hardcore?).

Fans are open-minded and will accept any match type. I trust this does what it says and didn’t test.

Fans will be put off by boring match types. You need to have your injury risk set at medium.

Fans expect dangerous, gimmicky matches at all times. You need to have your injury risk set at high.

<div style="text-align:center;">--MATCH LENGTH—</div>

Only matches less than 5 minutes have a cap on how high of a rating they can achieve.

Matches less than 10 minutes have caps on how high of a rating they can achieve.

Matches less than 15 minutes have caps on how high of a rating they can achieve.

Matches less than 20 minutes have caps on how high of a rating they can achieve.

The hidden caps were always a major cause of consternation in TEW16 so I’m glad they’re easily viewed and that we can now book red hot 8 minute Lesnar matches. However, the same clarity isn't there with the long match penalties. There are three levels of length penalty – a little too long, too long, and far too long. I didn’t bother to test the penalty size on matches that are far too long because what user would dare??

Let me reiterate here – my penalty estimates aren’t exact.

Longer matches will not do well in this environment. Actually, you can run a match up to 25 minutes without a problem. That 26th minute will cost you about 8 points to the rating (“a little too long”). Go up to 33 minutes and you’re looking at a 19 point penalty for being “too long.” 40 minutes is “far too long.”

Lengthy matches will tend to lose the audience. 15 minutes and under is safe. 16-20 is “a little too long” and costs 5 points. 21-25 is “too long” and costs 11 points. This consequence has seen some discussion as it’s tied to the Attitude Era product. I think it’s fair! You can still book a 20 minute slow build and only suffer a small penalty. But all those horny teens in their South Park t-shirts DO NOT want your Iron Man match.

The fans tend to have short attention spans, so longer matches will not do well. Penalties once again kick in at 16/21/26 minutes but are harsher, going up to 8/17/??

Fans expect matches to be short and will get bored if they go long. Same deal as above except the penalties are a scooch higher (9/19/??) so they could fall into the margin of error for my tests. Also, like, this is applied to Stoner Entertainment and if stoners actually had short attention spans jam bands wouldn’t exist, so…

The fans expect important matches to be quite lengthy. Important matches appear to be any match with a Major Star or Star, even against people classed as Unimportant. That’s not consistent with the definition of important match we’ll see later. Minimum time here is 20 minutes. There are levels to this penalty as well but I didn’t seek them out.

<div style="text-align:center;">--FINISHES--</div>

Fans expect clean finishes to matches. Fans hate tainted finishes (23 point penalty) and cheap finishes bomb (47 point penalty!). The only sense this note makes is for wrestling that’s trying to pass as legitimate sport, like Faux MMA or some Toots Mondt 1930s all-day hugfest. For the fans to be this mad, they need to believe it’s real. Matches where using a foreign object will legit get you arrested. I like that we have this consequence available, but it needs to be used very judiciously in any product beyond, say, the 1960s. Even the 60s era JWA had count outs all the time and their fans didn’t melt down.

Fans would be put off by cheap endings to matches. Fans were turned off by tainted finishes (14 point penalty) and hated cheap finishes (23 point penalty). I think this is much better as a puro penalty. Yes, New Japan has cheating and DQs, but those largely aren’t the MEMORABLE matches. This helps assure the highest scoring matches will be clean. All that said, I still think this penalty is TOO harsh and should come down to like 10/15.

I didn’t mess with any of the Overbooking notes, but here they are because this post isn’t long enough. You either Overbook, or you don’t basically.

Matches that are overbooked will be penalized unless they’re really good. OH! But I do want to call attention to this phrasing because I’d love to see more of it. LET US BREAK THESE RULES! But only if the match is really good.

Fans will be put off by overbooked matches.

Overbooked matches will really annoy the fans.

Overbooked matches will infuriate the fans.

<div style="text-align:center;">--DON’T USE THESE MATCH AIMS—</div>

______ matches will get (mildly penalized/penalized/severely penalized). There’s one for every Match Aim and three levels each. These basically serve as a guide of what not to do, which isn’t particularly exciting. If you tell me my Wild Brawls will be penalized, I’m never booking one, even if the penalty is mild. What scenario could motivate me to do that? I like using Match Aims but largely just from a roleplay perspective. In TEW16, I felt like their bonuses were either unclear or too weak, and more often than not I’d be better off just using a Regular match. So, what’s the point of having three penalty levels here if most players will never take the chance to book a Match Aim from this list?

Also, cinematic-style matches have “heavily” penalized on some products and “severely” penalized on others. Not sure if they needed a 4th level of penalty for some reason or if that’s just a mistake.

--MATCH SET-UPS—</div>

Match set ups other than steel cage will be severely penalized

Only basic match set ups (like cages) are acceptable; others will be penalized

Only basic match set ups (like cages) and high flying aids (like ladders, overhead wires) are acceptable; others will be penalized

Dangerous match set ups will be penalized

Ultra-dangerous match set ups (like glass or explosives) will be penalized

Self-explanatory and working well!

<div style="text-align:center;">--ANGLES—</div>

Angles need to be short of they’ll lose the crowd. Ooof, this one. With this active, you’re looking at 5 minutes max for your angles. Anything over gets you an 11 point penalty. I couldn’t tell if the penalty scales the longer you go but, if it does, it’s not too steep. Still, 11 points for that extra minute is harsh and very limiting, especially when meaningful angles have a floor of 4 minutes. The penalty also doesn’t appear to change based on the attributes rated, so 10 minutes of boring Microphone work gets the same penalty as 10 minutes of Fighting around ringside with glitter cannons. There are a ton of exciting adjustments to how we book angles in this year’s game – let us use them! There’s a lot of room to rework this or break it up into different penalties depending on what attributes are being rated.

Risky angles will not go down well. Avoid high risk angles, ya perv.

Angle roles rated on sex appeal will be penalized.

Angle roles rated on sex appeal will be severely penalized.

Angles that are primarily based on sex appeal have their overall rating limited.

Angles that are primarily based on sex appeal have their overall rating severely limited.

There’s been a lot of discussion on this already and I’m firmly on the side of “penalize sexy people” so I didn’t spend much time on it. I will say, the existence of these notes show that it’s possible for more variation on angle penalties to exist. For instance, instead of capping all angles for the Attitude Era, what if we had something like:

Angle roles rated on Microphone will be severely penalized

Angles that are primarily based on Microphone have their overall rating limited

Which would simulate the death of the backstage promo and the boredom of fans with talking heads, but keep our ability to use Entertainment or Fighting? I think there are way to better simulate what types of angles a product uses, beyond just broad caps.

Or, what if we REWARDED behavior instead of punishing it? Something like “High Risk Entertainment angles will do well here.” Worried this would get spammed? That's what the match/angle ratios are for!

<div style="text-align:center;">--GIMMICKS AND STORYLINES—</div>

Mostly self-explanatory!

Gimmicks will have no impact.

Gimmicks will not be necessary, but will have an impact if used.

All workers will be expected to be using a gimmick or there will be a small penalty.

All workers will be expected to be using a gimmick or there will be a penalty.

All workers will be expected to be using a gimmick or there will be a large penalty.

The fans will expect there to be ongoing storylines.

The fans will expect there to be lots of ongoing storylines.

Major matches will be penalized if they don’t have an associated storyline. Unlike in the Match Length section, here the minimum qualification for a major match is Star vs Recognizable. It’s about a 9 point penalty if triggered.

<div style="text-align:center;">--DO USE THESE MATCH AIMS—</div>

Each show will need at least one match aimed as _____. These are my favorite notes. Make us use all the fun options built into the game. And there are some new ones I don’t remember from TEW16:

All matches should be aimed as Deathmatch, Hardcore, Wild Brawl, Car Crash, or Mayhem.

A minimum of half the matches on each show need to be aimed as Deathmatch. Should any other products be tailored this way? Right now it’s only Deathmatch.

Each show will need at least three different match aims to be used. (Regular, Work the Crowd, Calm the Crowd, Lift the Crowd don’t count toward the total). Yes, omg, put it in my veins. I really feel like this should be added to the Wrestling Nerd Nirvana product. Right now it’s only on the No-Style Style product and that one is, shall we say, not inspired.

Each show may only have a maximum of two matches aimed as Comedy. Hey, how’d you get in here, buzzkill?

--SKILL CHECKS—</div>

The Hardcore skill will not be used in regular match calculations. Wouldn’t expanding this beyond Hardcore create more diverse rosters for both the players and the AI? I used TCW for all my tests, changing the product to a bunch of different things, and got very similar (often identical) ratings for the same match across different products. Wouldn’t that have changed if their top-line (left column now ugh?) skills were weighed differently? I know I’ve spent a lot of time advocating for less punishment, but I also want these products to feel more alive. Shouldn’t the Technical skill be less effective in a Slobberknocker product? Shouldn’t Aerial be less effective in Catch Wrestling?

<div style="text-align:center;">--BROADCASTING—</div>

The company will be extremely limited in the broadcast time slots that they can get

The company will be limited in the broadcast time slots that they can get

The usual here.

The fan base will be very opinionated and will turn on workers they don’t feel belong. I didn’t dig too deep into this one but, judging by reports around the forum, rosters really need to be checked/adjusted to support this note. Or else the note itself needs to be toned down. Also, again, couldn’t there be a positive version of this note? A fan base that becomes attached to their favorites?

The rest of the Product consequences are self-explanatory or carry-overs from TEW16. I’m just going to list them here in case anyone is using this encyclopedia-ass post to cherry-pick descriptors for a custom product.

The company will find it very difficult to attract sponsors

The company will find it difficult to attract sponsors

The company will be attractive to sponsors

The company will be very attractive to sponsors

Attendance levels are slightly affected by the state of the wrestling industry

Attendance levels are strongly affected by the state of the wrestling industry

Attendance levels are very strongly affected by the state of the wrestling industry

Using crazy bumps or stunt bumps give big boosts to segments

Using crazy bumps or stunt bumps give boosts to segments

Using stunt bumps give boosts to segments but fans do not like to see crazy bumps

Fans are put off by the use of crazy bumps and stunt bumps in segments

Comedy based gimmicks can be used even by Stars and Major Stars

Most Comedy based gimmicks cannot be used by Stars or Major Stars

Unmasking a wrestler has little significance and does not add heat to a segment

Having a wrestler be forced to unmask will add some heat to a segment

Having a wrestler be forced to unmask is a big deal in this company

Fans would hate the gimmickiness of having someone shaved bald as a forfeit

Having someone shaved bald as a forfeit can add a little heat to a segment

Having someone shaved bald as a forfeit adds heat to a segment

<div style="text-align:center;">--CONCLUSION—</div>

If you read this far… I’m sorry? Hopefully some of this was interesting and/or useful. My final thought is that TEW20’s product system has a ton of potential, but right now it’s not balanced or colorful enough to make up for the freedom players feel they’re losing.

Jaded · April 27, 2020

This is AMAZING; thank you!!

BrokenCycle · April 27, 2020

This is great.

I very much agree that the products really focus on the stuff you can't do instead of reminding you what you can do. It's like being on a low carb diet and having everyone ask you what you can't eat.

The product descriptions are very negative, and even a lot of the negative ones could be transformed into positive speech simply through wording.

What if instead of the game telling you, for example, that fans don't like long matches, it instead says they "greatly prefer short matches"?

The product descriptions also contain very vague terms that can only be deciphered by a new player (or even experienced ones!) through a lot of testing, or relying on guides like these. Things like "Fans will be upset by dangerous, controversial, or bloody match types." make no sense without context provided in the game. The game doesn't feature match types that are "dangerous, controversial, or bloody" because the game relies on stats like "content risk."

Jaded · April 27, 2020

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BrokenCycle" data-cite="BrokenCycle" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48249" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> The product descriptions also contain very vague terms that can only be deciphered by a new player (or even experienced ones!) through a lot of testing, or relying on guides like these. Things like "Fans will be upset by dangerous, controversial, or bloody match types." make no sense without context provided in the game. The game doesn't feature match types that are "dangerous, controversial, or bloody" because the game relies on stats like "content risk."</div></blockquote> This is a great point, I'd love to see this changed to explicitly state "Fans will be upset by matches with a content risk of high or very high", or whatever it is that one actually means.

alex6291 · April 27, 2020

Thank you very much for your work! I wish Adam add a double click in product screen to know precisely what each note does ingame.

You're right about clean finishes, it's only for MMA, shoot-style wrestling or very old products, it isn't for puro or other "wrestling first" products.

I thought that cheap endings only penalize cheap finishes but the 14 point penalty to tainted make this not usable even for puro. In the 80s a lot of the big matches in Japan finish with DQ, double DQ... and those were memorable matches, it was the Inoki, Hansen, Bruiser Brody, Ric Flair, the NWA guys. Those are classics and that's a big cliche about puroresu.

After that period with the rise of MMA in Japan it was less common at the end of the 90s and the beginning of the 2000s, the best example is the Inoki-ism and it almost killed NJPW. Now that MMA isn't a big thing anymore in Japan, cheating is back with guy like Jay White, Taichi...

Tainted finish shouldn't be penalized, only cheap finishes by less point, DQ are only use in tour show and not the most important matches so it's ok.

But tainted... Jay White cheat against Okada and it doesn't bother the crowd, is just a great true heel, and in fact is even popular (you can search Numbers Magazine Top 100, is 28 and 3rd Gaijin).

I find there's too much cliche about puro, if guys like Giant Baba up to Gedo now use those finishes it's because the crowd accept it, the difference is that they use them wisely, it's only a few matches, it can be big and memorable, the opposite of WWF/E and WCW at the time. That's maybe US crowd who are getting tired of those finishes by being overexposed, not japanese. In fact AEW don't DQ (I think just one or two, not sure), referee are permissive like in Japan and it's not a bad thing, only people who thinks only "WWE standard" are irritated.

But again thank you for this post, very useful.

Vinsmoker · April 27, 2020

Thank you for this. Very informative^^

Perhaps instead of tanking individual match ratings for Tainted/Cheap finishes, instead have something like:

"The crowd will expect most matches to have a clean finish"

"The crowd will expect some matches to have a clean finish"

This also wouldn't immediately mean the opposite. You could still have a card full of clean finishes, but wouldn't be penalized for having one or two non-clean ones. Perhaps something like:

"The crowd didn't like the finish of the match, as it was the third non clean end to a match on the card"

or at the end of the show (giving a penalty to the overall rating):

"You used cheap/tainted finishes far too much on this show"

"The fans were turned off having too many cheap/tainted finishes on the card"

Blake Trask · April 27, 2020

I think one thing to remember is that TEW 2016 did still have penalties for cheap finishes and certain types of draws, even in products that didn't have 'fans want to see solid matches with clean finishes' as a note.

IT'd show up in the dirt sheet as '(-) The match rating was penalised for booking decisions' (along those lines) and get some points knocked off.

That having been said this is a super cool thread that has already helped my understanding of the products and I agree the more clarity the better, as well as that the clean finishes/cheap/tainted should perhaps be on more of a tolerance scale (or that the note should be used a little bit less on some products).

Donners · April 27, 2020

Thanks for the amazing write-up. Entertaining and informative.

From an ACPW game, two of the issues you mentioned stand out.

The first is the vocal fanbase. They react negatively to half the starting roster. It looks like the threshold is a very high aerial rating (mid-70s). The penalty doesn’t seem too big, but a player frustrated by that frequent red text may build their roster in bizarre ways to avoid it (or, more likely, abandon the company altogether). I wonder also how it will affect AI roster building.

As to important matches, it is quite unintuitive. A short comedy match between a star and an unknown which opens the show is deemed “important” purely because of the involvement of the star. It should be rather more nuanced.

Zeel1 · April 27, 2020

The 'important match' penalty could definitely use some finetuning. It's a little silly because it might literally demand a 20 minute match in some products even when one side is Unimportant, which would itself definitely qualify for a hefty 'overuse' penalty.

Think about that scenario. Your base would hate seeing it go twenty minutes because one of the dudes is nowhere near important enough to take up that much time. But also their match is way too important to them for it to not go twenty minutes.

Teh_Showtime · April 27, 2020

I agree greatly about adding positives effects to go with the negatives, otherwise you’re essentially choosing what will get penalized less as opposed to something that really intrigues you.

Maybe the fans are really harsh on some wrestlers, but the ones they get attached to are easier to build that groundswell of support. You get penalized for angles over 5 minutes, but major stars are penalized for short angles still, why can’t the fans be happy to see their favorites for a bit?

alex6291 · April 27, 2020

Thank you for this. Very informative^^

Perhaps instead of tanking individual match ratings for Tainted/Cheap finishes, instead have something like:

"The crowd will expect most matches to have a clean finish"
"The crowd will expect some matches to have a clean finish"

This also wouldn't immediately mean the opposite. You could still have a card full of clean finishes, but wouldn't be penalized for having one or two non-clean ones. Perhaps something like:

"The crowd didn't like the finish of the match, as it was the third non clean end to a match on the card"
or at the end of the show (giving a penalty to the overall rating):

"You used cheap/tainted finishes far too much on this show"
"The fans were turned off having too many cheap/tainted finishes on the card"

I really like your idea about instead of penalized non-clean finishes, allow the player to use only a limited number (maybe 2 or a percentage) in each show. We can use them, but wisely, like what japanese do in real world.

Of course, MMA and Shoot-Style Wrestling still have penalities.

MainOffender · April 27, 2020

Thank you for this. Very informative^^

Perhaps instead of tanking individual match ratings for Tainted/Cheap finishes, instead have something like:

"The crowd will expect most matches to have a clean finish"
"The crowd will expect some matches to have a clean finish"

This also wouldn't immediately mean the opposite. You could still have a card full of clean finishes, but wouldn't be penalized for having one or two non-clean ones. Perhaps something like:

"The crowd didn't like the finish of the match, as it was the third non clean end to a match on the card"
or at the end of the show (giving a penalty to the overall rating):

"You used cheap/tainted finishes far too much on this show"
"The fans were turned off having too many cheap/tainted finishes on the card"

This is a very good idea! It would let users utilize more features while still enforcing a product's identity.

I'd also add that the penalties for tainted/cheap finishes do have some utility for users, particularly if you're booking a series of matches between the same wrestlers. Intentionally holding back the rating with unclear finishes will potentially help a final match clear a repetitive booking penalty. But, again, here we're navigating a pile of penalties which doesn't feel great.

absolutelyridiculous · April 27, 2020

I agree greatly about adding positives effects to go with the negatives, otherwise you’re essentially choosing what will get penalized less as opposed to something that really intrigues you.

Maybe the fans are really harsh on some wrestlers, but the ones they get attached to are easier to build that groundswell of support. You get penalized for angles over 5 minutes, but major stars are penalized for short angles still, why can’t the fans be happy to see their favorites for a bit?

The "Flavor of the Month" attribute, though I don't really know how strong it is or how common it is currently, would be great for this. More strong negative reactions and more "flavor of the month" guys they take to for whatever reason.

Anyway I really hope the kind of thinking in the OP is taken on board, I think it can make the game less scary for the full release and the kinds of fans who maybe don't post on here and don't get quite as stuck into the mechanics. The current system is trying to make the products feel like different playstyles, and I can see it helping replay value a ton.

But I don't believe in the one-size-fits-all approach with both things that absolutely should not happen (deathmatches in modern WWE, Russo Swerves in old-timey mustache wrestling) and things with a lot more grey area than that (hardcore matches in modern WWE), just with different numbers. Ultimately, when most players see "you will be penalized for putting this match on," I don't think they'll ever put the match on, which seems extreme when you look at booking a whole yearly calendar's worth of stuff and one-off/special attraction matches that do get good reactions.

ItaOperor · April 27, 2020

Thanks for this it's really helpful

One question though what does this mean? - (Special effect) A lucha de apuesta is a big deal and is taken very seriously.

I don't think I've some across the term before

Skummy · April 27, 2020

Assuming you're asking what a Lucha de Apuesta is?

It's a "wager match", so Mask vs. Mask, Mask vs. Hair, etc.

ItaOperor · April 27, 2020

Assuming you're asking what a Lucha de Apuesta is?

It's a "wager match", so Mask vs. Mask, Mask vs. Hair, etc.

Yes, cheers - that makes sense now

DeathZone2 · April 29, 2020

Very well thought out post.

Jaded · April 29, 2020

Posting this here because it seems a suitable place and may be of use to people - the 'angles must be short or they'll lose the crowd' product setting, which as the OP says limits you to 5 minutes, applies to following products.

Attitude Entertainment.

Campy Fun.

Catch Wrestling.

Deathmatch.

Episodic Hardcore.

Episodic Sport.

Family Friendly Pro Wrestling.

Fast and Furious.

Faux MMA.

Golden Age Pro Wrestling.

Gory Hardcore.

Guerilla Warfare.

Hardcore Lucha Libre.

Junior-Deathmatch Combined.

Lucha Libre Slobberknocker.

Modern Throwback.

Monster Battle.

PG Rated Entertainment.

Pseudo Sport.

Puerto Rican Hardcore.

Respectful Wrestling.

Risque Adult.

Royal Puroresu.

Shoot Style Wrestling.

Skit Based.

Slobberknocker.

Slobberknocker-Deathmatch Combined.

Stoner Hardcore.

awesomenessofme1 · May 1, 2020

Bumping this thread to ask if anyone's looked into exactly what match setups qualify as what. For example, does a scaffold count as a high-flying aid? Are generic "weapons" considered to be basic match setups? What about strap/chain?

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