Great Matches work for any product?

[djthefunkchris]

I wanted to start a conversation as I've been looking at the new product settings and seeing that some of them call for outstanding match's, particular ones using technical skill, for some reason would be penalized. I accept that products have plus and minus value's, as these are in a game meant to balance things out, so I don't have a problem with it in general, game wise. Most of these products seem to try and emulate real world products, or at least when viewing some of them as I read along I get a real world promotion in my head that seems to fit.

 

So my question is, what real world promotions seem to actually penalize actual good wrestling? In my head, if I am running (which I wouldn't but for sake of argument) an ECW hardcore product, I can understand people expecting blood and such, and if I have a show that doesn't have any of this, I can understand it mattering (ratings drop). However, if I have a great match mixed in between all the chaos, I honestly don't think that match would be penalized, as long as the majority of the show follows along the product that people are coming to see. I think if placed well, match's in spectacle promotions might actually enhance the show.

 

I threw this in the TEW2020 thread instead of Dog Pound, only because of the 2020 products being the center of interest, not because I don't think penalties should be in a wrestling "game". I have no problem with the penalties from a game aspect. This isn't a "It's not in real life so therefore shouldn't be in the game" thread.

[Self]

From what I can see, TEW ratings are like sculptures, taking the perfect ideal and chipping away using penalties. As opposed to being like a painting, starting from zero and building with bonuses. The penalties in products are more about telling the player what the perfect main event in that promotion would be, than telling the player what to avoid.

 

In an ECW product, a great technical match in the midcard wouldn't be looked down upon... but it would be in the midcard. The fans expect violence in their main events. So Hardcore matches need a natural bonus in order to fit better on top... but TEW doesn't work in bonuses. So it gives penalties instead. That penalty doesn't represent the fans rejecting the techncians. They're simply less excited for them that the blood and guts. It's the same reason Attitude era WWE would penalise Hardcore matches. Those matches were a lot of fun in that time, but the ideal main event wasn't a hardcore match. So penalty.

 

More to your question about "oustanding" technical matches. I'd say WWE historically would penalise those, because their main events were brawls between big personalities. Or any big man territory which believed muscular or burly powerhouses were the best. WWE used to be the place that only cared about recognisable faces. If you weren't on TV no one cared about your armbars and drop kicks. Even 205 live these days. Talented technicians on there, but who cares? Not WWe fans.

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52008" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>More to your question about "oustanding" technical matches. I'd say WWE historically would penalise those, because their main events were brawls between big personalities. Or any big man territory which believed muscular or burly powerhouses were the best. WWE used to be the place that only cared about recognisable faces. If you weren't on TV no one cared about your armbars and drop kicks. Even 205 live these days. Talented technicians on there, but who cares? Not WWe fans.</div></blockquote><p> I get that the company would "penalize", but the fans wouldn't was my thought. For either.. I feel that even ECW, if everything was placed right "I dare you NOT to go hardcore!", even in the main event, it could actually work, and since it wouldn't be common at all, might even get a bonus.. done wrong, BOO central. </p><p> </p><p> Was thinking there might be some indie promotions that this really happens too, not the promotion going "Well, if your not a top star, no one cares about your workrate". I'm talking about the fans actually crapping on it (like the above "If done wrong" scenario). </p><p> </p><p> Realize this in no way is about if the game should have it, I like most all the penalties in the game unless they are (imo) unreasonably bias. I'm not happy with everything in the game in other words, but this part here, with the promotions, I have no problem with the penalties in place. I feel like they balance it out, meaning a promotion I might want to utilize not having a penalty would probably feel like easy mode in game.</p>

[BrokenCycle]

<p>Pretty much every single entertainment company in history has, in TEW terms, "penalized" technical wrestling. Just because you're fond of Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero doesn't mean that the masses might have liked Hogan vs Piper more. Just because you like Angle vs Benoit doesn't mean they didn't blow their loads at Triple H vs The Undertaker. </p><p> </p><p>

That is not to say that they didn't enjoy these vanilla midgets rolling around in holds. But they like the big stars more because that's the style of wrestling they enjoy. </p><p> </p><p>

The same could be said about New Japan running a cinematic match in a swamp. Would that be a hit?</p><p> </p><p>

This is essentially like saying "What the hell?! Moonlight and Avengers has the same Rotten Tomatoes score. Moonlight won Best Picture, why don't people want to see Moonlight?" Well it's because in America the masses would rather watch mindless popcorn entertainment than dramas about homosexual black men. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't like Moonlight, but they would rather see Avengers. </p><p> </p><p>

I think TEW does a good job at finding the right balance between good wrestling carrying a show and stars carrying a show, depending on the product.</p><p> </p><p>

Edit: An important thing to realize is that the match ratings aren't about the quality of the match, but how the audience responds to the match.</p>

[smmccallum]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52008" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>From what I can see, TEW ratings are like sculptures, taking the perfect ideal and chipping away using penalties. As opposed to being like a painting, starting from zero and building with bonuses. The penalties in products are more about telling the player what the perfect main event in that promotion would be, than telling the player what to avoid.<p> </p><p> In an ECW product, a great technical match in the midcard wouldn't be looked down upon... but it would be in the midcard. The fans expect violence in their main events. So Hardcore matches need a natural bonus in order to fit better on top... but TEW doesn't work in bonuses. So it gives penalties instead. That penalty doesn't represent the fans rejecting the techncians. They're simply less excited for them that the blood and guts. It's the same reason Attitude era WWE would penalise Hardcore matches. Those matches were a lot of fun in that time, but the ideal main event wasn't a hardcore match. So penalty.</p><p> </p><p> More to your question about "oustanding" technical matches. I'd say WWE historically would penalise those, because their main events were brawls between big personalities. Or any big man territory which believed muscular or burly powerhouses were the best. WWE used to be the place that only cared about recognisable faces. If you weren't on TV no one cared about your armbars and drop kicks. Even 205 live these days. Talented technicians on there, but who cares? Not WWe fans.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That was a great answer. The whole penalty system finally made sense to me the way you described it.</p>

[kdcastles]

I see everyone's point in this thread, however, I do feel we've seen a hardcore company actually appreciate technical wrestling. Those Malenko/Guerrero matches in ECW were enjoyed by everyone.

[Sprout1883]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52008" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I get that the company would "penalize", but the fans wouldn't was my thought. For either.. I feel that even ECW, if everything was placed right "I dare you NOT to go hardcore!", even in the main event, it could actually work, and since it wouldn't be common at all, might even get a bonus.. done wrong, BOO central. <p> </p><p> Was thinking there might be some indie promotions that this really happens too, not the promotion going "Well, if your not a top star, no one cares about your workrate". I'm talking about the fans actually crapping on it (like the above "If done wrong" scenario). </p><p> </p><p> Realize this in no way is about if the game should have it, I like most all the penalties in the game unless they are (imo) unreasonably bias. I'm not happy with everything in the game in other words, but this part here, with the promotions, I have no problem with the penalties in place. I feel like they balance it out, meaning a promotion I might want to utilize not having a penalty would probably feel like easy mode in game.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> I'snt no style style essentially easy mode?</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Sprout1883" data-cite="Sprout1883" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52008" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'snt no style style essentially easy mode?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Probably. </p><p> </p><p> I think this is going off track from what I was hoping. @BrokenCycle, see I think your example actually proves my point over what you're trying to prove, at least with the example you gave </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52008" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This is essentially like saying "What the hell?! Moonlight and Avengers has the same Rotten Tomatoes score. Moonlight won Best Picture, why don't people want to see Moonlight?"</div></blockquote><p> Moonlight didn't have the build up that Avengers had. Moonlight wasn't meant to be an action blockbuster, nor was it promoted as well. That would be like comparing an indie promotion having a one off that was a great match, to a match just as good in the WWE, but had over a year to build it up into a must see match.</p><p> </p><p> I do agree they are fine in 2020, that's not my point in the whole thing. I think Self explained how things work in TEW best I ever heard, so no need to "protect" the game.</p><p> </p><p> If there was several movies leading up to a huge team up for Moonlight, who knows how great it would have done at the box office.</p>

[Self]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52008" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I get that the company would "penalize", but the fans wouldn't was my thought. For either.. I feel that even ECW, if everything was placed right "I dare you NOT to go hardcore!", even in the main event, it could actually work, and since it wouldn't be common at all, might even get a bonus.. done wrong, BOO central. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think the 'product' setting reflects the fan reaction more than the company, although it's a chicken/egg situation because the company first conditions the fans as to what's important. Slight penalties to me are the fans saying <em>"this is pretty good... it's not what I came to see, but I'm giving it a chance". </em>The technicians who impressed in ECW had to be really good too, world class performers. Whereas their hardcore guys didn't have to be <em>that</em> good in order to get similar fan reactions. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52008" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Was thinking there might be some indie promotions that this really happens too, not the promotion going "Well, if your not a top star, no one cares about your workrate". I'm talking about the fans actually crapping on it (like the above "If done wrong" scenario). </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I wrestled for a few years, and early on I was very technical. Lots of chain wrestling and running sequences. Some crowds would enjoy it. But some crowds would be dead silent, waiting for the 'real wrestling'. Be that brawling in Merthyr, pantomime in holiday camps, etc. So different audiences absolutely have a different idea of what they want to see, based on what they've seen before. </p><p> </p><p> I'd imagine a T&A promotion would balk at a technical masterclass. As would a pure hardcore deathmatch promotion (which ECW wasn't). Camp shows require character and crowd interaction, so two serious guys doing serious grappling would struggle. It is a rare case though. Quality workers in a straight wrestling match is more palatable to a wider range of audiences than the niche styles.</p>

[MikeSc]

I don't believe brawling is a niche style. As much as I love technical wrestling I have to admit that brawling (at least in America) seems to appeal to more people than the technical skill. Japanese wrestling relies pretty heavy on brawling as well, but it is harder to be over without an appropriate amount of technical skill. Mexico it seems like they really structured everything to where you had apuestas matches that were expected to be brawls and title matches were more technical affairs. Even when you go to the British wrestling (which is highly technical in style) from the 60s and 70s a lot of the bouts I remember have some elements of the best brawls in them. Maybe it's just coming from the modern styles conditioning, but the matches where guys got really intense and started going at one another harder with holds (and more strikes than usual) and ramping up the intensity stand out more than the tricked out submission escapes.

 

To me Brawling or Technical are pretty well the base styles of Western wrestling where Puroresu would be the base for Japan. And Puroresu is really just a mix of a more technical form of brawling (often punches are considered rare due to the closed fist) mixed with suplexes and gritty submissions. In later years the bad habit of standing in the middle of the ring just hitting each other added itself in as people tried copying things they saw without understanding them.

 

That last little bit aside, most of your Western promotions are going to take a mix of Brawling and Technical as their base. Percentages will vary and most Hardcore promotions would land heavily on the side of Brawling. That isn't to say that technicians or high fliers would not be appreciated, but they would be the more sideshow attractions. If you look at ECW they had some great Rey/Psicosis matches in addition to the Eddie/Dean matches. The fans loved them both as a change of pace from the normal proceedings. If you tried to main event with that kind of wrestling consistently the fanbase would dwindle. WCW had the midcard technical guys and the cruiserweights (wonder where they came by that idea given that it was the same people) keeping the crowd ready for the big names like Hogan, Nash, Hall,Flair and Savage in the main. If they had tried main eventing with Benoit and Guerrero without a HUGE build it would have failed miserably. I tend to think the game has it right.

[Self]

I don't believe brawling is a niche style.

 

100% agree. It's pretty much the default, particularly in American main events for the past 30 years. If it seemed like I was suggesting otherwise then that was poor communication on my part.

[djthefunkchris]

100% agree. It's pretty much the default, particularly in American main events for the past 30 years. If it seemed like I was suggesting otherwise then that was poor communication on my part.

 

I think the confusion was you were talking about a true niche (like deathmatch), and talked about brawlers being more center of focus.

 

I like this conversation as it's getting into more of how some promotions this would really have a hard time in. I was thinking the same way as Mike as far as a "change of pace from the norm" actually having a bonus effect. But obviously since it's ECW, it wouldn't go over as the norm and they would lose their fanbase (cult following). I understand ECW wasn't a "Deathmatch" promotion, and I will be totally honest in that I haven't (won't watch) seen a deathmatch all the way through. I'm not a fan of blood just for...blood. IN much the same way I love a good horror movie, something that can make me jump, but I'm not into a gory movie, and there is a difference... My wife unfortunately loves the gore (not in wrestling, but in movies). So I understand there are crowds for different niche promotions.