CM Punk vs. Bob Holly

[Trashbear]

So uh...why exactly should bob Holly have won his match against CM Punk on ECW? You take probably the number 2 or 3 guy on the brand, in his homestate, undfeated outside of that Elimination Chamber match, and have him lose in six minutes getting little offense in to a guy that has never and will never draw you a dime in this business. Bravo, WWE. Orton craps in people's bags and is a dick to everyone backstage and gets pushed to the moon but a red hot (and extremely talented) CM Punk gets jobbed out in his hometown? I swear they're really trying to get the ECW brand to fail.

[Travis]

Yeah, I tuned into the beginning and watched that match and as a big indy fan, I was shocked the Punk gets all this hype and then taken the boot by Holly. I then turned off the TV because I knew if they were going to do crap like this, there's no need to watch the rest. Last week I tuned in for a little bit, and they're jobbing the Original ECW stars to wrestlers without a lick of talent. Well, that's Vince's "Vision" of how ECW would be if it was still around today. They take a star who was awesome in ROH and everywhere he went, and not only put him in matches against the like of Bob Holly, but makes him lose to him. No real logic behind that. Now I know people usually say the whole "If I was the booker..." sayings and basically be an Arm Chair booker, but damn, If I was the booker, I wouldn't make ECW anything like this. Now being a booker is a difficult real life job, but if your bringing in a concept to your company such as the old ECW, you don't take all the talent that was there before and job them. And if your trying to raise talent for the future, you don't make them lose to the likes of Bob Holly. ECW is sinking faster than the Titanic.

[Dubya]

Oh no, he lost one match! His WWE career is surely kaput, now. :rolleyes: Seriously, have you guys ever heard of a feud?

[Remianen]

Wait a minute. You mean to tell me that they jobbed CM freakin' Punk to BOB HOLLY?!? That...makes....no.....sense. None! Either they think Punk is huge enough to have bulletproof momentum or there's something odd going on. But if he has bulletproof momentum, why not stick him in the main event so he can cash in that momentum for....well, cash! Are they trying to Jesus push Holly? Dubya, he lost one match.........to a glorified JOBBER.

[Dubya]

I wasn't aware that one win constituted a "Jesus push." The story here is that Holly said Punk can't make him tap. He WILL make him tap guys, so get over it already. One loss isn't going to kill Punk's career. :rolleyes:

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Dubya;181880]I wasn't aware that one win constituted a "Jesus push." The story here is that Holly said Punk can't make him tap. He WILL make him tap guys, so get over it already. One loss isn't going to kill Punk's career. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] Whatever. I just think the choice of worker blows. Test, I could believe, because he doesn't have the same baggage Holly does. But then again, I still recall what Punk said when he first signed with WWE and was asked what he'd do if the 'E misused him like they did Shannon Moore: "I'd buy a Hummer just like Shannon did." Kid's got his head on straight. :)

[panix04]

To be honest, i think Hardcore Holly has been performing incredibly well since he became part of the ECW brand. I have a lot of time for Bob Holly. Yeah, i love CM Punk, but if you are trying to get a feud going you have to make it look like the heel can damage the babyface or what's the point? And all the people who complain about ECW stars losing, why? When ECW was around originally did all of the ECW stars win every match? No. This is wrestling and some people have to win, some people have to lose! Like it or not the sandman's work is hard to watch these days, it wasn't particuarly stunning back in his hey day! Sabu misses as many spots as he hits these day's. I don't wanna sound like im slating all the ex-ECW guys, i happen to think Balls Mahoney is entertaining, i like Tommy Dreamer, although i'm not going to pretend that he is the worlds most talented wrestler. CM Punk will not be mis-used by the WWE, because if he is, he will make his money in WWE and take his behind to TNA and then Vince might end up with a headache! I'm sure the WWE know what a commidity they have in CM Punk only an idiot would understate his impact, when a guy is in the ring with Trip's and HBK and its CM Punks name the crowd are chanting, you know this guy's gonna go far!

[Nevermore]

I understand what you're saying Panix and I agree about needing to make the heel look dangerous but there are couple o' things I don't quite agree on. [QUOTE=panix04;181940]And all the people who complain about ECW stars losing, why? When ECW was around originally did all of the ECW stars win every match? No.[/QUOTE] Of course not but they weren't jobbed out to stars of a company they were competing against. Oh, wait, did I say stars? I mean rookies who haven't proven themselves yet and guys that've been booked so badly they have to be given easy cannon fodder. [QUOTE=panix04;181940]Sabu misses as many spots as he hits these day's.[/QUOTE] This is true but I think a lot of people miss the point on this one, no offence. If Hulk Hogan bothced a standard move would WWE fans care? No they'd be too busy chanting "Hogan". Same goes for Sabu and Dreamer if you're an ECW fan; those guys have gone past the point of needing to put on great matches because they've now done it so many times before... [B]There is just one reason why Sabu's spots are so awkward now: 'cos he has been so willing to deck himself night after night for the entertainment of wrestling fans that his body's giving up on him.[/B] For me, anyone that dedicated has earned the right to screw up now and then. Give me a past his prime Sabu over a Lashley, Test or Bob Holly any day - my respect for that man is just so great! Quote The Raven Nevermore

[panix04]

[QUOTE]This is true but I think a lot of people miss the point on this one, no offence. If Hulk Hogan bothced a standard move would WWE fans care? No they'd be too busy chanting "Hogan". Same goes for Sabu and Dreamer if you're an ECW fan; those guys have gone past the point of needing to put on great matches because they've now done it so many times before... [B]There is just one reason why Sabu's spots are so awkward now: 'cos he has been so willing to deck himself night after night for the entertainment of wrestling fans that his body's giving up on him.[/B] For me, anyone that dedicated has earned the right to screw up now and then. Give me a past his prime Sabu over a Lashley, Test or Bob Holly any day - my respect for that man is just so great![/QUOTE] yeah, don't get me wrong, i have seen Sabu in his prime and it was a sight to behold, springboards off the top rope into the railings and the like are move's to be harked about for years to come. That being said i think there are a group of wrestler's who should really take a look at themselve's and say 'am i too old/beaten up for this?' and the answer would be yes. I have upmost respect for a lot of old-timers Flair, sabu etc. But when it get's to the point when there match's are poor beyond belief then it may be time to step down (and let Chris masters take over :D j/k). I can understand your opinion, because i would probably be just as defensive if someone was slating Mick Foley, but i genuinely don't feel Sabu is good enough anymore and there is only so far a legacy of good match's can take you! I actually dis-agree with you on the subject of Test and hardcore holly. I think Holly's gimmick kinda suck's but i think he can put on a good show, Test has really re-invented himself of late and i think he plays the old school, nothing to like about me , heel role really well. Lashley, well i couldn't agree more with you there, the only thing he has going is his physique. His in ring work is poor at best, he has the charisma of a jacobs cracker and the voice of pee-wee herman. He should be a lower midcarder at best!

[flamebrain]

Maybe they think that losing a couple of matches will remove that "rammed down our throats" taint that the E seems to give so many of its pushed stars. Losing to Holly isn't that big a deal given ECW's roster and Holly has remained upper card since his move there. Jobbing him to Tony Mamaluke might have justified such horror but really, come on.

[sheepy]

Maybe their trying to build someone up by not just using an undefeated streak to get them to the main event level. Always seemed like a bit of a cheap way to establish someone. Also doesn't it make you want to see what direction this feud goes next week? Finally they've done something everyone didn't see coming.

[MightyDavidson]

[QUOTE=sheepy;182031]Maybe their trying to build someone up by not just using an undefeated streak to get them to the main event level. Always seemed like a bit of a cheap way to establish someone. Also doesn't it make you want to see what direction this feud goes next week? Not really, no. Why not? Because it's Bob Holly and he's only getting a push because it's a C level brand and he's got his head inserted up Vince's ass.

[panix04]

please, show atleast a little respect for hardcore holly, he may not be everyones favourite wrestler, but his fighting spirit in the face of adversity should serve as an inspiration to us all!He has not had an easy career, to come back from a broken kneck and potentially life threatning case of MRSA and to still have the desire to entertain takes a tremendous amount of fortitude.

[Trashbear]

[QUOTE=Dubya;181870]Oh no, he lost one match! His WWE career is surely kaput, now. :rolleyes: Seriously, have you guys ever heard of a fued?[/QUOTE] No one outside of Vince McMahon gives a crap about Bob Holly, so this "feud" is going to do nothing but make Punk look bad. CM Punk can lose, everyone does at some point, but why kill someone's momentum (and yes, getting the early elimination at the PPV and a significantly scaled back push is killing his momentum) and job him out in his hometown? That reeks of vindictive booking. It'd be one thing if the WWE didn't have a history of taking something good and destroying it, but I've pretty much used up all my faith in them now, so I think I and the rest of us are justified for being incredulous in this. Hey, if CM Punk gets pushed to the moon during all this then I guess I'm wrong...but I doubt it's going to happen and based on the recent past it's tough to disgree.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=Trashbear;182063]No one outside of Vince McMahon gives a crap about Bob Holly, so this "feud" is going to do nothing but make Punk look bad. CM Punk can lose, everyone does at some point, but why kill someone's momentum (and yes, getting the early elimination at the PPV and a significantly scaled back push is killing his momentum) and job him out in his hometown? That reeks of vindictive booking. It'd be one thing if the WWE didn't have a history of taking something good and destroying it, but I've pretty much used up all my faith in them now, so I think I and the rest of us are justified for being incredulous in this. Hey, if CM Punk gets pushed to the moon during all this then I guess I'm wrong...but I doubt it's going to happen and based on the recent past it's tough to disgree.[/QUOTE] I am curious to hear what talent you think they have wasted, there a few worker's i think have been underutilised in the past and im curious to hear who you think hasn't been giving the push they deserve.

[Dubya]

[QUOTE=Trashbear;182063]No one outside of Vince McMahon gives a crap about Bob Holly, so this "feud" is going to do nothing but make Punk look bad.[/QUOTE] It's going to end with Punk making Holly tap out. Guaranteed.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=flamebrain;182017]Maybe they think that losing a couple of matches will remove that "rammed down our throats" taint that the E seems to give so many of its pushed stars.[/QUOTE] This is a VERY good point and one I hadn't considered. Maybe they're slowing Punk's momentum until such time as they figure out who to use to take the strap off Lashley (who isn't strong enough in ANY area to carry that brand), who will then be somewhat of a transitional champion who eventually drops the belt to Punk. Honestly, if it weren't for the weed bust, I think ECW would be far better off and that RVD would still be holding the world title. But this is a very good point. They've already weathered backlash from overpushing two workers (Orton and Cena) so maybe now they're getting the hint. [QUOTE=sheepy;182031]Also doesn't it make you want to see what direction this feud goes next week?[/QUOTE] No. Wanna know why? Because..... [QUOTE=Dubya;182071]It's going to end with Punk making Holly tap out. Guaranteed.[/QUOTE] My problem isn't the fact that Punk lost or that his rise to the main event is being slowed. My problem is the choice of worker they're using. Trashbear makes a very good point (and, on some levels, I kinda agree with MightyDavidson). Who cares about Bob Holly besides panix? And panix doesn't count because he usually likes the workman type workers (see: Foley, Mick), the kinds of guys who don't usually have the look plus charisma plus athletic ability so they have to make do with what they DO have. Don't get it twisted, I don't think Bob Holly sucks by any stretch of the imagination. He's a limited worker who works to his strengths and doesn't try to exceed those limitations or "do too much". But it would seem to me, given wrestling history, that a good feud between two workers can work to elevate both of them. That's why I think Test would've been a better choice, but maybe they're saving that for a point in the future. And on a side note, as good a fit as it might seem and as much as fans may want it to happen, I don't see Punk joining DX. It would turn the DX merchandising machine into a gear higher than anyone thought possible. But it would also reflect badly on the RAW brand when a midcarder gets bigger pops/better crowd reaction than the reigning champion (and does anyone doubt that would happen for a millisecond?). It would also rob ECW of probably its only box office draw not named Rob Van Dam.

[Undertaker666]

[QUOTE=Remianen;182081]Who cares about Bob Holly besides panix?[/QUOTE] [I]*raises hand*[/I] Bob Holly's a solid worker who's never been able to get over. Best dropkick in the business too.

[Imarevenant]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents since ECW is the only wrestling show I watch. Anyway I didn't have a problem with him losing to Holly last night. Holly may be a jobber in a fed with a bigger roster but he's a legitimate Upper Midcard-Main Event talent in ECW, and he actually fits in very well in WWE's ECW. I'm actually happy CM Punk lost, as it means we won't have a short CM Punk/Shannon Moore or CM Punk/Mike Knox non-fued here, where all that happens is Punk squashes his opponent in 3 minutes for three straight matches. With the loss at least it gives CM Punk someone/something to overcome.

[Trashbear]

[QUOTE=panix04;182069]I am curious to hear what talent you think they have wasted, there a few worker's i think have been underutilised in the past and im curious to hear who you think hasn't been giving the push they deserve.[/QUOTE] I was speaking more to the fact that the WWE pushes people hard for a few months and just as it seems they're getting over the right way, the push is rescinded. Specifically I would lump Snitsky in there since I thought he was a good heel with a good look. Paul Burchill was a victim of that, but I wouldn't say Paul was really getting over. How about the weeks of vignette's for Tatanka's return, and he vanished in about 3 seconds? The Spirit Squad went from Mr. McMahon's young group of stars to nothing in 5 months. Now, no one's going to say that those guys are on par with CM Punk, I'm just illustrating that the WWE has been dong this more recently. I mean, every company does it and it's unavoidable at some point, but lately they seem to take pushes away just as fast as they give them, and a lot of the times I can't really see the logic in it other than maybe the powers that be don't personally care for the character. Ultimately the people that are the most over will get used regardless of personal feelings because they draw money (at least I'd hope they get used), but I'm just hoping in this instance it's not a case of CM Punk being severely depushed like others before him.

[Trashbear]

[QUOTE=Undertaker666;182091][I]*raises hand*[/I] Bob Holly's a solid worker who's never been able to get over. Best dropkick in the business too.[/QUOTE] Come on now, better than Lance Storm's?

[panix04]

[QUOTE]Who cares about Bob Holly besides panix? And panix doesn't count because he usually likes the workman type workers (see: Foley, Mick), the kinds of guys who don't usually have the look plus charisma plus athletic ability so they have to make do with what they DO have.[/QUOTE] Fair point

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Undertaker666;182091][I]*raises hand*[/I] Bob Holly's a solid worker who's never been able to get over. Best dropkick in the business too.[/QUOTE] I think Trashbear said what I was going to say but meh. He does do some pretty dropkicks though. But have you ever asked yourself WHY he's never been able to 'get over'? His best chance was when he was paired with Crash with the 'Super Heavyweight' thing, bringing out the scales to every match. But even then, he was outshined by Crash! He doesn't have 'it' but that's okay. Balls Mahoney's best chance at having 'it' is portraying himself as a poor man's Mick Foley. Most workers don't have 'it' but they still have good careers (Lance Storm, anyone?). And Lance Storm beat The Rock during his heyday so there is a precedent for guys without 'it' having highlights. I just think the 'two birds with one stone' thing might've made Test a better choice. [QUOTE=Imarevenant;182092]Anyway I didn't have a problem with him losing to Holly last night. Holly may be a jobber in a fed with a bigger roster but he's a legitimate Upper Midcard-Main Event talent in ECW, and he actually fits in very well in WWE's ECW.[/QUOTE] I'd give him Upper Midcard but main eventer he's not. I can't see Holly drawing money on the level of an RVD, Punk, or even Test. But that's just me, I guess. It's generally harder for heels to draw money (which is probably why many workers prefer being faces) but it's been done (Flair, Triple H, Taker, etc). I will agree that Punk's loss makes it easier to paint him as an underdog or 'man on a mission' type. Maybe when this all plays out, it'll look better in hindsight.

[TCP1]

It's interesting this debate. On the one-hand Holly's past (jobber) plagues any kind of push that he receives and CM Punk is an awesome talent who could have a big future in the business. On the other hand people are always complaining that young stars are pushed too quickly to the main event without receiving any kind of seasoning or 'paying of dues.' Now in the big picture, this loss has little or no impact on Punk's career. Providing of course he is able to make Holly his bitch in a convincing fashion. I question the choice of opponent for Punk, but if they want to elevate both guys, this is the way to do it. They know Punk's fans will continue watching as long as Punk is on TV and they have brought Holly up to a respectable roster position by having him beat Punk clean. It really does seem to be win-win. Providing they don't have Holly beat him cleanly again, it should be ok. I predict a dodgy Punk victory in the next match and in the blowoff a huge win for the lad.

[Undertaker666]

[QUOTE=Trashbear;182097]Come on now, better than Lance Storm's?[/QUOTE] Yep, better than Lance Storm's. [quote=Remianen]But have you ever asked yourself WHY he's never been able to 'get over'? His best chance was when he was paired with Crash with the 'Super Heavyweight' thing, bringing out the scales to every match. But even then, he was outshined by Crash! He doesn't have 'it' but that's okay.[/quote] I'm not saying that he's been screwed out of becoming the next Rock or Stone Cold by bad booking etc, but I do think that people don't give him the credit that he's due. In TEW terms, "he's a solid upper midcarder who should be used as a stepping stone to give other people victories they need to put themselves in the main event scene".