GatorBait19
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Yeah but since we're talking about coaching all the non-coaching stuff he did really isn't relevant, is it?
As a direct contradiction of what you said?
Since, well... he did.
I agree different guys brought different things, but when you look at the results Phil has had in 3 different environments over the past two decades it's unbelievable and I don't think anyone can compare to what he's accomplished.
Doc Rivers took a horrible C's team and made them into champs lmafo, and Phil and the Lakers weren't a powerhouse (again) until the remarkable trade for Gasol, also remember that The Lakers were 24-19 before Rudy T resigned for health issues and Kobe missed 16 games down the strech
Hell Rivers even took a scrapped Magic team in 99 with no superstars and went 41-41
He turned Rondo into probably one of the top 3 PG, made McGrady into a star without any help.
Phil still had Kobe when he got back........ how'd he do with out Jordan, when he only had Pippen? still went to the playoffs just didn't win anything
Once again, I am not taking anything away from Phil, I think he is a very good coach, but to me a great coach is someone who can take a loser with no superstars, and make superstars, develop rooks into players, and make them a winner. Names like Rivers, Brown, Auerbach (when the league was 17 teams, and the C's in the 4 years prior had a winning% of .352), D'Antoni (made David Lee a big time threat, turned Nash into a superstar, Joe Johnson became a big score under him, Nate Robinson even flourished under him), Stan Van Gundy (took a player like Wade who many wrote off as being a good player but wont reach that next level and developed him into a superstar, turned Dwight Howard into a 20 point guy, helped turn Jameer Nelson into an All-Star point Gaurd, help Gortat become a big man people want, and helped Petrius and Barnes become better players, heck Hedo had his best years under him)
Thunder Coach Scott Brooks (need I say more?)
You want to see a great coach in my eyes, look at Gregg Popovich and the names he has helped, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Bruce Bowen (defense wise), DeJuan Blair looks like an up and comer, 12 out of his 14 years he has won 50 or more and only one losing season (his first) and the other was a strike shorten year where his winning % was .882
look at people like Vinny Del Negro development wise, he took a guy like Joakim Noah, when people were starting to doubt is abilities and his toughness and made him into a double double guy, that will probably grow still. D-Rose is an All-Star, Taj Gibson has a very respectable rookie year.
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1) Pippen wasn't an all-star before Jackson, and Kobe, while an all-star, was an all-star who shot 26% from the 3-point line, lacked toughness on defense, and averaged 20 points a game. In short he was an all-star because he was an above-average shooting guard who played in a major market. To argue that Jackson didn't develop these guys is pretty bizarre considering both were in their early 20's and are now hall of famers based almost exclusively on what they did while Jackson was coaching. Gasol is another guy who has changed his game from the tissue-paper soft style that saw the Grizzlies fail to win a single playoff game, ever.
2) Yes, he won with great teams, but somehow that makes Red the best ever? Red didn't coach great teams? He had the best defender and rebounder in the league in Bill Russell, a Steve Nash-level point guard in Bob Cousy, a great shooter and tough defender in Tom Heinsohn and an elite scorer like John Havlicek coming off the bench. Plus 5 more hall of famers over the course of his coaching career.
Again, Red Auerbach coached an NBA league that expanded to TEN teams, and had talent far above that of any other team in the league for over a decade. Free agency and the salary cap make that kind of team impossible for a prolonged period of time.
Except, again, he did take a 34 win Lakers team and won a championship in 4 years.
Oh, more support: Deron Williams, following the Jazz's unceremonious sweep from the playoffs, their first in 2 decades: "they're just better than we are. We're a playoff team and they're a championship team." The Jazz have been a playoff team for pretty much the entire Deron Williams era, but while the Jazz have consistently gotten to the semi-finals, they haven't really managed to do anything else. They do have a very good coach, but they haven't been able to get to that championship level that Jackson-coached teams seem to get to on a regular basis.
first thing, you can't really put NBA salary cap in any conv. because it's a joke
"okay teams, we are giving you 53 million (for 12 players) and well please don't go over it..... but if you do it's completely fine, you'll just have to match dollar for dollar what you spend" so a team (say the magic right now) have a 70 million dollar payroll this year, but they are spending an extra 15 mill on tax...... does this hurt them? No they just put together a great season and have been do record attendance
plus the MLE??????? i mean NBA's salary cap is a joke beyond joke. I remember reading one time a team asked their star player not to sign his contract until they signed all of their free agents..... why because when he signed he count against the cap, but if he waited, they could spend freely and then still sign him to top dollar
Also Red did just more than coach, he spent 16 years as GM when he retired, where he continued to find great players. he was apart of 16 different championship teams with the C's
Also under Jackson, Kobe posted his lowest 3% shooting ever as well, I still think Gasol is a soft player (sure he looks tough against the weaker Centers in the league) I remember one of the finals games last year when Petrius fouled Gasol and everyone got in front of Petrius and no one tried to stop Gasol
and where did this all come back to me saying I thought Phil was a bad coach? I believe I said he was a good coach who was lucky
Why put that Phil turned around the Lakers after they won 34 games? Brown has done it mult. times, hell he even took the Clippers to the playoffs twice. The bobcats went this year and I can't even name a starter there
but talking about which coach is the best is dumb, they were all different and brought different things to the table
1) Red coached in a different era like you said, but he had an eye for talent
2) Phil's triangle offense changed the game, he took players like Kobe and Pippen and made them better, and took others like Shaq and Jordan and made them into Champions
3) Larry Brown was a D man, he took teams that struggled and turned them into winners
Last thing, so Lebron wants a championship, why not take a MLE (which could be up to 5.3 mil a year) for one year from the Lakers, the endorsments he would get in LA alone would make up for any lost income, then next year (after they win the series) Lakers have his bird rights and sign him to a max deal
lol dream I know, but if he was smart he could do it
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Yeah that was his role on the Pistons as well, get rebounds and rough people up.
I was looking over his stats just now, he actually shoot above .500 from the field in his career
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He didn't need to develop superstars, what he rather did was give roles to the smaller players. He worked things around for everyone to drop their input and make their worth. Fisher became clutch, you had Horry and Fox doing their thing, in the Bulls it was Harper and Longley, who were sure as hell not great players on their own, but with what he did he made them look like more than decent starters. And THAT is a hell of a job in itself, just as much as your idealistic fairy tales of picking up X mediocre team with decent stars and pushing them to championship status. Really...
Best example was Dennis Rodman. I mean holy ****, just knowing what the guy was about would make any coach pull their hair out. The man was a trainwreck if not for his amazing rebounding. Won DPOTY so many times, that's all well and good. But he sucked in jumpshots, he sucked in free throws, he sucked in close scoring for the most part and most importantly he sucked in attitude. Phil stuck to his guns though and worked with him to play to his strengths and hide/damper his weaknesses. Now, Jackson has his work cut out with Ron Artest, trying to keep that S.O.B. in place so he doesn't go pick a fight in the stands again. And yes, probably every coach has their dwindles and downsides but to work through them and gain championships is a whole nother thing.
Developing superstars? protip: for the most part, superstars develop themselves. They either come into the game red hot, or they evolve in a sporadic tremendous way. But hell, without Jackson, Jordan and Kobe hadn't done or won squat. Kobe missed the playoffs and Jordan was the dominant player who could never reach the finals... kinda like LeBron. Even with decent or "good" coaches, they probably wouldn't have gone further, or maybe as much as one title, if anything. Jackson rather pulled a dynasty out of their asses.
He modernized the triangle offense and ran with it. Other coaches tried to emulate him and fell flat on their faces. We can always ask the "what ifs" of if he poached a lesser team but we're never gonna find that out, nor would he have ever thought of doing it, and rightfully so.
If I remember right Rodman was a very good shooter, even would step back from time to time for the three, yes his free throw shooting wasn't the best (never hurt Shaq)
Rodman was never asked to be a points guy, he was asked to be a goon pretty much, and his numbers in Chi town were actually some of the worst in his career besides the last two jokes of his career
Kobe and Jordan never went to finals with out Phil, Lebron has
Lakers were a playoff team that went to the Conf. finals the year or two before, Phil just made them a champion, kind of like what Gruden did to Tampa or Ozzie to Chi. Sox
he never took a bad teams and made them good (larry brown) he's always taken playoff teams and made them champions
and Horry was already know for being a role player, and a clutch player at that
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I believe Jackson is a very good coach but I always believed he has had his flaws
1) I don't remember him developing any superstars himself, Shaq, Kobe, Pippen, Rodman, Jordan, Gasol were all all-stars before him. Andrew Bynum is getting better but he isn't up there
2) He has always won with great teams (i.e Lakers and Bulls) but when the Lakers only had Kobe they barely made the playoffs
Now I am not saying that Phil is a bad coach, I just believe (imo) that he's been fortunate with great players.
I still believe the best coach all time was Red.
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Wow Rays are such an odd team
they have now been no hit twice and been involved in a perfect game
the number 1 offense and they can't get anything, and they were avg. 5 runs a game vs Barden
A guy who they ripped into last week two, it makes no sense sometimes with them
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Playoff equal one thing for pot. free agents
More money
Someone like Kyle Krover is playing his butt off and adding millions to his next contract he's gonna get
Someone like Joe Johnson or J. O'Neal (who wasnt gonna get a huge contract anyways) are losing millions with poor play
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So we have one for MLB and NFL and with NBA playoffs heating up and the 2010 free agent class coming I though why not
Magic and Lakers are looking hot, could we have a rematch?
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I no very little about Japanese Baseball, but what type of rotation do they use over there? Is it a Three-Men, Four-Men, or Five-Men?
No wonder why he and Nomo start to stink after a couple of seasons over here. With that many innings pitched, it is no wonder why they wear their arms out.
im not sure about that, I have heard of teams using 3 or 4
also i think they play three different seasons (spring, summer, fall)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_in_Japan#Differences_with_Major_League_Baseball
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Professional_Baseball#Single_Season_Pitching
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I wonder why Japanese Pitcher are usually so good when they come over here. However, after say two or three seasons they seem to go down hill. Is it because the hitters adjust to them?
And why does this not seem to happen to Japanese position player?
I just always found that to be odd.
it's the innings they pitch, I remember when Dice-K first came here I read an article how he had already pitched 1400 innings and had only one healthy season where he pitched 30 plus games
he's command also gets away from him at time and he walks a lot of hitters
the hitters just make adjustments to pitchers which is why he is getting rocked now
Also the pitch count over there is much different, over there 150 to 200 pitches a game is a common thing and is when most pitchers get pulled, he had 72 games in which he pitched all 9 innings, I read once he pitched 123 pitches in just 5 innings
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This is not a shot at Red Sox fans, but I wonder if they are really this bad or will they turn it around? I mean hell with that starting pitching alone they should be a lot better. Granted it is only the start of the season and they still have somewhat of a chance to turn it around.
well I think their biggest thing is, Ellisbury is still hurt, Cameron is hurt and they are trying to get healthy
But I agree the starting pitching should at least be helping and it's not, they tried a new way this year (defense first) and so far it isn't working, Ortiz is old and in his last year of his contract, Victor hasn't lived up to expectations, Beltre is an error machine so far with another GG 3B on the bench, their bench is weak to me, and John P. looks hit-able
so we will have to wait an see what happens when they get healthy but it could be a long season for them
(remember it's been 2 years since Lackey has made 30 plus starts, Beckett has a history of injuries, and Clay hasn't played a full season but is looking good)
And it seems either A) Dice-K is losing his stuff (remember he was a work horse in Japan) B) Hitters are caughting on, or C) mixture of both)
heck it seems like even the most active hitters (guys who don't take many pitches) are taking pitches
but, IMHO they are an old beat up team with former proven players, who haven't proven much lately, besides Youk, Dustin, Ells, Clay, Beckett, Lester, Lackey, and Clay you are looking at a team that needs to be imploded and rebuilt
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For all intents, Ricky's last season is this one. And that incentive laden contract I thought was the one he signed with Miami (when Wannstache proceeded to run him into the ground -- and get him all those milestones).
personally I have always had the what if factor about Ricky, What if he was 100% committed to football? how great could he have been
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If Lee signs for a Halladay deal I am going to burn his house down.
lmao why? is it cuz you think Lee is better than that or because he is worse than it?
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So you think they lose 30 million and then add another 60? Pujols is going to get just below A-Rod money, Cliff Lee's agent wants the deal CC got, and Carl Crawford wants $10 million a year plus.
They Yankees don't always sign the top free-agents just because. They don't need any of those guys, they needed the players they acquired last off-season. Just because the Yankees are the Yankees is not a good enough excuse for them to throw bad contracts at multiple players because they can afford to do so. They've tried that before and it bit them in the ass. They will not sign all three of those players next off-season.
also, as much as I think it'd be fun to see Albert in Pinstripes, the Cards or the Mets are the only two teams I see him with, because you are right, the Yanks would rather add more players then just one and some scabs
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So you think they lose 30 million and then add another 60? Pujols is going to get just below A-Rod money, Cliff Lee's agent wants the deal CC got, and Carl Crawford wants $10 million a year plus.
They Yankees don't always sign the top free-agents just because. They don't need any of those guys, they needed the players they acquired last off-season. Just because the Yankees are the Yankees is not a good enough excuse for them to throw bad contracts at multiple players because they can afford to do so. They've tried that before and it bit them in the ass. They will not sign all three of those players next off-season.
Cliff wont get C.C money he has never been healthy enough for it, look for him to get a Halladay deal, 3 to 4 years and 40 to 50 million.
and instead of get I should have put pursue for you, they will pursue the top four free agents, if C.C hits the market he will most likely go to the Yanks because he is a top of the order guy, with speed, 20 HR's (playing 81 games in that park I wouldn't be surprised if he touches 25), and defense guy
he would fit perfectly because he hits for avg, can steal to get into scoring position ahead of the likes of A-Rod, Tex, and Cano
Lee would fit because he would be their 2nd or 3rd pitcher behind CC and maybe AJ
And another power bat (Berkman, Pena, Paul K) would fit in as DH
Pena draws walks and has power (tied last year with Tex for AL lead in HR's and he played 21 less games then Tex) sure the avg isn't the best in the world but a club house leader, a hitters ball park (how many HR's do you think Pena would have had playing 81 games in that park) high walk guy with a .350 OBP he would fit well either in between Tex and Cano (where he'd get protection and see nice pitches) or in between Cano and Swisher at 6
and like I said, we have to wait and see what happens this is all predicting what will happen
And the Yanks are the Yanks, you can say they have a budget and they stick to it, but Hal isn't a dummy, is sees the overall goal.... money, and you can say no he wants a title, and you'd be right he does, but the biggest reason for the title is...... money, it brings more in. It justifies (to them atleast) to keep their tickets so high.
Will they add 60 mill to their payroll........ depends, how much money will it bring them back?
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Of course they have a budget. Any successful business has a budget. Having a budget doesnt mean they arent going make the changes needed to bring in the best player in baseball. Its really a silly thing to argue about because knowing the Yankees they would sign Pujols just to keep him from going to the Red Sox. We will have to wait and see but I am pretty much certain the Pujols is going to get around 7-8 years and 250 million.
not only that, but Pujols would also bring in a lot of money to the Yanks
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No one with a brain is going to sign a deal without big guarantees. It's Pandora's Box. You can't take back precedents.
And you seem to be forgetting that Ricky Williams came with significant amounts of baggage. He's a massive risk, and he knows that. The next time he slips, he could be banned (or at the very least, suspended for a season). No team with sense is going to give a player like that a big contract. You also can't really do incentive laden contracts because they're not constant. You can't predict whether a player's cap number is going to be 1.7 mil or 5.8 mil if he hits all his incentives. Teams need to be able to manage their cap situations and minimize exposure to ballooning salaries. Plus, it's far more cap friendly to give a guy a bunch of big bonuses (due to proration) than to give him a decent salary and a ton of incentives.
But if you didn't have moron GMs like Mark Dominik throwing around money to scrubs (hi Michael Clayton), this wouldn't be as big an issue as it is. If Clayton is worth 5 years and 24 mil with 10.5 mil guaranteed, what's Miles Austin worth?
Teams are operating under the assumption that the new CBA will include a salary cap (despite what the NFLPA says). Thus, no one is going to do the kind of deal people expect with a year with no cap. Peyton doesn't have his new deal, neither does Brees. Once the CBA is ratified, there will be a flurry of contract extensions done, but not until then. But the Johnson case is different because he can't expect to get Peyton (or even Eli) Manning money. So why hold off on giving him his due when it's not really going to break your bank?
probably will go down as his worst move ever...... so far gulp
and man 49ers got a steal with willis contract dansby, Ryans, and Scott (very good LB but not as good as Willis) make more a year
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here is the good thing for the yanks
first, they have the highest payroll this year than they have ever had
second, they are going into a free agency year with the likes of Cliff Lee, Carl Crawford, Carlos Pena, Albert P. (if he doesn't resign), Lance Berkman, Paul Konerko, Victor Martinez, and Brandon Webb
Now for the Yanks I believe they will drop 1.2 million just from Melky Cabrera and Chad Gaudin's contracts (they paid I believe half of Melky's contract for the Braves just to get him out of there)
Jeter and Rivera will be resigned
Andy P is probably retiring this year so there is another 11.75 mil, and Javier V probably wont be brought back taking another 11.5 mil, Nick Johnson at 5.5 for next year probably wont have his mutal option picked up, Chan Ho Park at 1.2 mil, Randy Winn at 1.1 mil, and maybe another 2 mil cleared from other players not coming back the yanks are looking at maybe 30-35 million off the books.
If they have no problem spending 213 mill this year I doubt they will have a problem with it next year, so I see the Yanks going after
Albert, Crawford (it would fill two of their biggest weakness in DH and LF) along with Cliff Lee, and if they can't get Albert, Pena is a good fit as well as he can hit for power(which works in that stadium) and can play a great 1st base(former gold glover)
I would predict they could get all three, they could pitch to Crawford that his endorsments would go up, and could pitch two the other two that a Ring would be tied to this
But we will see how this all works out
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If you are comparing guys playing today to guys who played in the 70's, you are basically comparing guys who played a different game.
Todays game is like basketball on grass, while the 70's game was still a very violent game with a bunch of stuff being allowed that would either get you ejected or flagged for a penalty EVERY play.
Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Blount
The new passing rules implemented are known in the league as "the Mel Blount rule"
As a Jaguars fan, I read Ask Vic daily. Vic Ketchman covered the Steelers during the 70's/80's/early 90's. He has some really good insights to how football was played during the 70's and of course Bradshaw and Blount in particular.
here is my thing biggest thing when you compare the yester year QB's to today's QB's
QB's today are much more protected by rules then in the past
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I'm sure its in their contracts that they can hold out by how exactly can they get away with not playing with the contract they signed. If they agree to a contract for such and such amount for x amount of years why shouldn't they have to honor that contract? I would say that would be the balancing act of overpaying guys like Russell and finding gems at the same time like Johnson. Does he deserve to be paid more base on performance of course but if I'm at a job and I know they give raises once every two or three years and I still agree to work for minimum wage and I sign a contract saying that I will do that why shouldn't you be hold to that contract?
Maybe its something along the lines of they'll just sit at home for a year while their contract runs out but how can that be legal. You're being paid to play football you signed a contract saying you would play for this amount of money so how can you get away with NOT playing for that money?
there's been a lot of talk about the rookie scale have brackets (salary) that would save owners about 200 million each year, now from this the player's union want 100 mil of it be given to retired players and the other half going to vets. Owners said no
see to me, this all comes down to money, and the owners aren't going to let up, they want to keep as much as they can. so this should be fun
and we will see if russell sign onto another team
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someone will pick him up, he still has talent, he just needs to tighten up
so who do you think picks him up, Jags, Bills, Vikes, Seahawks, 9ers
also is it just me or is pete carroll the next spurrier, he is bringing back all of his players including ones who weren't good (Mike Williams)
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I'd agree that the AL East is the best division in the league. As much as I hate them the Red Sox will wake up eventually and jump into things. The Blue Jays are hanging right around .500 too. It's a very good division from spots 1-4 with lots of superstar players.
The NL East would take it if the Mets didn't under perform each and every year recently. The Marlins are such an exciting young team, Hanley Ramirez is amazing. The Nationals will eventually drop off and it will be a two team race I believe, unless the Mets keep playing good ball and they get a fire under them when Beltran returns. Even if they stay in they'll probably choke come crunch time anyways. They don't quite measure up their counterparts in the AL yet though.
And back to Cardinals pitching, another great start for Jaime Garcia. He's 3-1 with an ERA of 1.12 after only giving up 1 to a potent Phillies lineup. I know he won't keep up at that pace all year, but it's really exciting to watch. He's battled Santana and Lincecum so far this year and is standing toe-to-toe with them. Cardinals are up to a 17-8 record now with a 5 game lead. Hopefully we can stay healthy and jump out to a huge lead in the division early.
that all depends really if teams get the reports and how he reacts wants they start hitting him
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so today i got into an arguement with someone about the best divison in baseball (same guy I argued with about NFL)
He said and I quote "NL East is the best"
and I just couldn't help to laugh, how can the AL East not be the best, they have 3 of the top 5 teams (along with Cards and Phil's) each starting pitcher (besides maybe Dice-K and Javier V.) you have to be like crap with
They have five, count'em five Gold Glovers just at the third base position (Longoria, Lowell, Beltre, A-Rod, and M. Tejada) plus names like Pedroia, Pena, Youk., Mike Cameron, J.D Drew
they have names like Veron Wells (who finally is connecting), Nick Markcauis, Carl Crawford, Derek Jeter
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26724" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah his first year was great then he would come back and get destroyed for a few games/innings and then get hurt again. I like Mark and really rooted for him and it just didn't work out. <p> </p><p> The A's had Zito, Mulder, Hudson these guys were ALL Cy Young level guys and then right when they seemed to be at their peak they left Oakland and never really maintained that extended level of success. </p><p> </p><p> Thats why I'm weary of signing Pitchers to long term big money deals. MOST pitchers seem to rise up, become dominant and then get hurt or fade away quickly. </p><p> </p><p> Santana and Sabathia seemed to have mostly maintained their dominance but so many others have fallen by the wayside. Even Carp as dominant as he is you always fear that he's one pitch away from an extended stay on the DL.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Also I can't remember (partly due to the fact im not an A's fan) but isn't their stadium a pitchers ball park?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> I believe so, with the big foul terri. and far fences</p>
Official NBA Discussion Thread
in The Dog Pound
Posted
I like how C's are taking it to the Cavs
I think a C's vs Magic match-up will be good.
They match up well together
Dwight Howard vs Perkins (Perkins and Big Baby gave him hell last year)
Rhasad Lewis vs Garnett (Garnett has some wear and tear but it should be a good match up to watch Garnett gaurd on the prem.)
Matt Barnes vs Paul (this is a match up that favors the Magic mostly because of the depth at the position and the fact that Paul hasn't shown up yet)
Carter vs Allen (two aging former stars, Carter is still the faster of the two and has done well in the playoffs)
Nelson vs Rondo (this will be the match-up of the series, will Rondo keep up his great playoff? has Nelson really turned the corner towards that elite PG that he's been looking like this playoff)
The big thing is the bench players, while both have nice benchs, (IMHO) the Magic seem to have the deeper bench
Petrius went toe to toe with Lebron last year and defended him well (didn't shut him down but did well against him), Jason Williams has looked good this season, along with Anderson and then you also have Gortat and Bass
But Magic are also a streaking team who is hotter than anyone, but they also rely on the 3 a lot