Benoit Dead

[Travis]

I'm not trying to give WWE any crap over it, but it seems like there ever-so-efficient wellness program should've helped a little more. WWE lets there big stars get by so easy. I just wonder if everything Benoit did could've been prevented. His last messages were pretty much a cry for help, and its a shame that no one could really help him out. If steriods had anything to do with it whatsoever. I really, sincerely hope that the WWE will help out their stars get off all the steriods, because you know there are a lot of wrestlers in the WWE that are on them. But I doubt the Benoit case had alot to do with Steriods. It was more of an internal thing that was thought out before hand. Whether it was rage or not. You know, who also thinks of a way to hang themselves with a pully mechanism on a weight lifting machine. You have to think that he thought it out well in advance. The Wrestling World lost one of the greatest athletes, its a shame that it happened this way.

[GDE71]

Golf does not fit my definition of sport. Same for Bowling. They both fall into a category I call:Skills-testing Events. When I can scream and yell at golfers and bowlers and someone can put obstacles on the green/lane, then I will call them sports.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=Travis;251753]I'm not trying to give WWE any crap over it, but it seems like there ever-so-efficient wellness program should've helped a little more. WWE lets there big stars get by so easy. I just wonder if everything Benoit did could've been prevented. His last messages were pretty much a cry for help, and its a shame that no one could really help him out. If steriods had anything to do with it whatsoever. I really, sincerely hope that the WWE will help out their stars get off all the steriods, because you know there are a lot of wrestlers in the WWE that are on them. But I doubt the Benoit case had alot to do with Steriods. It was more of an internal thing that was thought out before hand. Whether it was rage or not. You know, who also thinks of a way to hang themselves with a pully mechanism on a weight lifting machine. You have to think that he thought it out well in advance. The Wrestling World lost one of the greatest athletes, its a shame that it happened this way.[/QUOTE] I doubt that steroids had anything to do with it at all. As sad as it is to say, it's not like this would be the first time that a domestic dispute/custody case ended in this kind of tragedy. Wasn't it just last year that that guy in the midwest lit his own son on fire because he'd lost custody? Or that guy who flew a plane into his ex-wife's house and killed himself, her, and all their kids? I'm also a little upset that so many news outlets are turning it into a steroids issue, despite the fact Chris had just passed a random test and the HGH he was giving his son has been prescribed by doctors.

[That Crazy Guy]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;251628]No one is bashing Vince. At least not in this thread. [/quote] [quote]In America it is a Joke. All because of Vince.[/quote] That sounded like bashing Vince. [quote] And I wasn't talking about sports as far as athleticism or how hard it is to be a wrestler. I am talking in legal terms as it relates to the way state or the legislature regulates the industry. [/quote] Still though, I was saying it doesn't matter if it is a sport or not. In legal terms, it isn't. In any term, it isn't. I just don't want to take anything away from it. That's why I said it was equal to the effort of other sports. You're right, I was agreeing with you. <_< [quote]Wrestling is not a sport so it can't be regulated as a sport and because the WWE is a corporation you can't force them to make changes when they have legally negotiated contracts with their performers.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure if you're talking to me here, but again - I was agreeing with you. <_<

[wooodaddy]

I heard some mention over the fact that there are loop holes in the wellness program.. being that if you have a prescription, you will test negative..

[wooodaddy]

here is the thread where the loop hole is discussed.. [url]http://www.prowrestlingscoops.com/article/184978429.php[/url]

[infinitywpi]

[QUOTE=GDE71;251756]Golf does not fit my definition of sport. Same for Bowling. They both fall into a category I call:Skills-testing Events. When I can scream and yell at golfers and bowlers and someone can put obstacles on the green/lane, then I will call them sports.[/QUOTE] A 'Sport' is best defined as a game in which a) there is some required level of physical skill, ie, the results are not based simply on a mental basis, and b) there is some direct contact between sides that determines the outcome. NASCAR? Physical skill required to stay in control of your vehicle and steer correctly, and you're on the track at the same time as the other drivers. Sport. Gold? Physical skills required to get the ball where you want it to go, but at no time do the other players have any impact on your play. Gold is a game, not a sport. Wrestling? Phsyical skills definately required, to a high degree, and there is direct contact, but it does not determine the outcome; Wrestling is not a game or a sport. Baseball, Cricket, Soccer, sports. Bowling, darts, golf, are games. Can we go back to discussing whether or not a child-killers accomplishments in his chosen field should be ignored based on his final actions, or if the measure of a man is held in what he was in the end, not what he was leading up to it? After all, we come here for the philisophical discussions...

[Capelli King]

This post really proves how big a role to Wrestling Benoit was:(

[juggaloninjalee]

I am sorta interested in seeing how this effects peoples diaries... will people continue to bring Benoit up from the DOTT mods or will he be buried? I know personally I wouldnt push him. Thats just me and my own moral issues though.

[RKO_HBK]

In my diary I'm going to post the most recent Smackdown (where Benoit is) as it is, then post a tribute show I booked today. In my game, I'm basically putting him as deceased, i don't feel right burying him, but I don't feel right pushing him to the moon. So I figured, I 3-hour tribute special is fitting (trust me- the main event and the person taking over in his storyline with Cena is fitting). I'll post my proper thoughts about this whole thing tomorrow, I'm going to bed in a few minutes.

[darkfire423]

[QUOTE=That Crazy Guy;251767]That sounded like bashing Vince. [/QUOTE] Yea i bashed vince. His big man lust paved the way for alot of things.

[joose2001]

Im stuck what to do in my diary, half of me wants to continue it as I enjoyed doing it. Thing is, my original plan, was to run the Edge - Benoit feud, and having Benoit eventually win the WWE Heavyweight Title at Summerslam. Oh well! Secondly, something that is serious, but gave me a little laugh in all of this. In the Daily Star in the UK today, there was a full page article about Benoit and his family's deaths Anyway, first of all which I think is now incorrect and havent seen anywhere, they put "he killed them all in a drug-fueled frenzy" But what made me laugh was this: "Benoit then tried to kill his family by putting them in his trademark Crippler Crossface manouver" Sorry........ but that did make me chuckle!

[sirniles2000]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;251415]OK....find me another industry where that many guys- men and women, trained athletes - drop dead at that sort of abnormally young age. When that many people (and those were just the famous ones, and just the ones up to age 50) pass away at an age which is significantly younger than that national average (around 77 iirc) its not some statistical anomaly. I'm not eliminating personal responsibility. I'm saying that the industry as awhole is obviously a contributing factor to the bad decisions these people make. And those bad decisions lead to the shortened lifespans. Could they say no? Absolutely. But they start taking the uppers and coke to function on the road, they start taking the painkillers so they can make their next date, they take the steroids to get big so the can make the big dollars, but now their schedule dates increase, so they take more coke and more painkillers and so forth. Somewhere along the way it goes beyond 'personal responsibility' and it becomes an issue of a lifestyle and culture associated with the wrestling business. But you keep defending the industry. Its not like there's 30 years of evidence and people within the industry who will tell you the same thing.[/QUOTE] Peter, I have to disagree with you. Fact is, there are a LOT of people who die young. If I counted correctly, there were about 60 wrestlers on that list, which does seem like a lot. But you have to remember that the list is over 22 YEARS. That is an average of about 3 guys a year(a little less actually). Now can you honestly say that three guys a year don't die in other industries? Do you honestly think that three gas station workers don't a year? Or business men? Or people who work in retail(I can name four in retail who have died this year already, and that is only in Alabama). My point is that lots of young people die in every industry, in every walk of life, and even those who haven't even been in an industry(teenagers or kids) every year. The reason it seems to happen so much in wrestling is because these are people we watch weekly. You don't grow up watching and idolizing those three people who worked at a gas station. You do grow up watching the wrestlers(by the way, since you discussed football players earlier, I wanted to tell you something. There were three college players and 12 high school players who died in some way related to football in 2006 ALONE). I'm not saying that the wrestling industry cant do more. But it is unfair and untrue to say that deaths happen in wrestling more than other industries. Fact is, it does all come down to personal responsibility. I understand that many wrestlers feel they have to take steroids and drugs to succeed. But that is there choice. They don't have to do it. But they choose to, because they decided that the wrestling industry is worth it to them. I personally would love to be a wrestler. But it isn't worth it to me to sacrifice all that I would have to in order to succeed. And that's MY CHOICE. Wrestlers make choices, and they have to be responsible for those choices. You cant blame the industry.

[darkfire423]

[QUOTE=sirniles2000;252026]Peter, I have to disagree with you. Fact is, there are a LOT of people who die young. If I counted correctly, there were about 60 wrestlers on that list, which does seem like a lot. But you have to remember that the list is over 22 YEARS. That is an average of about 3 guys a year(a little less actually). Now can you honestly say that three guys a year don't die in other industries? Do you honestly think that three gas station workers don't a year? Or business men? Or people who work in retail(I can name four in retail who have died this year already, and that is only in Alabama). My point is that lots of young people die in every industry, in every walk of life, and even those who haven't even been in an industry(teenagers or kids) every year. The reason it seems to happen so much in wrestling is because these are people we watch weekly. You don't grow up watching and idolizing those three people who worked at a gas station. You do grow up watching the wrestlers(by the way, since you discussed football players earlier, I wanted to tell you something. There were three college players and 12 high school players who died in some way related to football in 2006 ALONE). I'm not saying that the wrestling industry cant do more. But it is unfair and untrue to say that deaths happen in wrestling more than other industries. Fact is, it does all come down to personal responsibility. I understand that many wrestlers feel they have to take steroids and drugs to succeed. But that is there choice. They don't have to do it. But they choose to, because they decided that the wrestling industry is worth it to them. I personally would love to be a wrestler. But it isn't worth it to me to sacrifice all that I would have to in order to succeed. And that's MY CHOICE. Wrestlers make choices, and they have to be responsible for those choices. You cant blame the industry.[/QUOTE] my point restated. WAhoo i am not a crazy fan.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=Ransik;251665]But they ARE competing for higher spots in the company... so while it's not a sport in terms of actual competition... the employees are still competing over their placement on the rosters... but anyway... There was something bugging me during his match with Burke last week I couldn't put my finger on, but I rewatched it and you could tell he wasn't like he used to be. After he beat Burke he was basically just going through the motions of being excited about going to Vengeance... and the one thing that was really bugging me was that he was rubbing his thumb up and down his chest for no real reason. I also taped ECW last night to see how the program would go... and apparently everything on Comcast froze up... so it's a solid hour of someone being hanged in a still shot from the chest down. ****ing creepy was all I could think of at the time.[/QUOTE] I have comcast, that didn't happen here. That is creepy. These people go in knowing their role's, and like the next post I quoted says, it's not much different then any other job really. You go to work starting at a lower job, and hopefully you can work your way up the company ladder. Not every wrestler wants to be Main Eventing, not every Main Eventer wants to someday be a Road Agent. So it depends on the individual, however, in all stages of employment there are ladder's to climb. [QUOTE=masterded;251698]Don’t actually want to get involved in this argument, but the same is true in the business world.[/QUOTE] This was a great point. [QUOTE=sirniles2000;252026]Peter, I have to disagree with you. Fact is, there are a LOT of people who die young. If I counted correctly, there were about 60 wrestlers on that list, which does seem like a lot. But you have to remember that the list is over 22 YEARS. That is an average of about 3 guys a year(a little less actually). Now can you honestly say that three guys a year don't die in other industries? Do you honestly think that three gas station workers don't a year? Or business men? Or people who work in retail(I can name four in retail who have died this year already, and that is only in Alabama). My point is that lots of young people die in every industry, in every walk of life, and even those who haven't even been in an industry(teenagers or kids) every year. The reason it seems to happen so much in wrestling is because these are people we watch weekly. You don't grow up watching and idolizing those three people who worked at a gas station. You do grow up watching the wrestlers(by the way, since you discussed football players earlier, I wanted to tell you something. There were three college players and 12 high school players who died in some way related to football in 2006 ALONE). I'm not saying that the wrestling industry cant do more. But it is unfair and untrue to say that deaths happen in wrestling more than other industries. Fact is, it does all come down to personal responsibility. I understand that many wrestlers feel they have to take steroids and drugs to succeed. But that is there choice. They don't have to do it. But they choose to, because they decided that the wrestling industry is worth it to them. I personally would love to be a wrestler. But it isn't worth it to me to sacrifice all that I would have to in order to succeed. And that's MY CHOICE. Wrestlers make choices, and they have to be responsible for those choices. You cant blame the industry.[/QUOTE] I can't help believing that your very correct. I've been reading about High School Student deaths related to sports, as well as college level too. Seems to me there is alot more stuff going on in real sports far as deaths and what not, then what the media is willing to point out. They do seem to gang up on Wrestling everytime something happens, no matter if it's the first time in 1 year or 3 years... Yet every year there is something in Football it seems, as bad, and as crazy. Also, Baseball was so unregulated with steriods for so long, it's hard to say who was and who wasn't, especially when you have all these "EX" player's telling you "everyone does it".

[djthefunkchris]

Steroids have not been found to be a reason for this so far as I've heard. Those of you seeing alot of propaganda type news stations might want to hold off on certain accusations till we find out for sure. Benoit DID pass the last Steriod test he took in the wellness program, so there is a 50/50 (in my eyes) chance, steriods will not be an issue in this case...... To be honest, it's the situations around the case that leads me to believe there was no "ROID RAGE" going on. As much as I hate to admit/say it, it looks to me that he was acting calm, cool, and very deliberate. No mess, no fuss, not even any sign's of an actual struggle going on. I haven't heard anything about big scratch's or anything on Benoit to signify someone might have been fighting him, or he was beating anyone, etc. Just don't know ENOUGH information yet, but so far, it just doesn't compute.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=sirniles2000;252026]Wrestlers make choices, and they have to be responsible for those choices. You cant blame the industry.[/QUOTE] Well then everything is peachy keen isn't it. Might as well say the porn industry treats people well, too.

[tristram]

[QUOTE=sirniles2000;252026]Peter, I have to disagree with you. Fact is, there are a LOT of people who die young. If I counted correctly, there were about 60 wrestlers on that list, which does seem like a lot. But you have to remember that the list is over 22 YEARS. That is an average of about 3 guys a year(a little less actually). Now can you honestly say that three guys a year don't die in other industries? Do you honestly think that three gas station workers don't a year? Or business men? Or people who work in retail(I can name four in retail who have died this year already, and that is only in Alabama). My point is that lots of young people die in every industry, in every walk of life, and even those who haven't even been in an industry(teenagers or kids) every year. The reason it seems to happen so much in wrestling is because these are people we watch weekly. You don't grow up watching and idolizing those three people who worked at a gas station. You do grow up watching the wrestlers(by the way, since you discussed football players earlier, I wanted to tell you something. There were three college players and 12 high school players who died in some way related to football in 2006 ALONE). I'm not saying that the wrestling industry cant do more. But it is unfair and untrue to say that deaths happen in wrestling more than other industries. Fact is, it does all come down to personal responsibility. I understand that many wrestlers feel they have to take steroids and drugs to succeed. But that is there choice. They don't have to do it. But they choose to, because they decided that the wrestling industry is worth it to them. I personally would love to be a wrestler. But it isn't worth it to me to sacrifice all that I would have to in order to succeed. And that's MY CHOICE. Wrestlers make choices, and they have to be responsible for those choices. You cant blame the industry.[/QUOTE] I have to disagree with you mate. Put it this way, industry A employs 800,000 people per year and suffers 30 deaths. Industry B employs 500 people per year and suffers 30 deaths. Which do you think is a problem? Going by your logic, both are as culpable as the other. One however is experiencing a 6% death rate per annum. The professional wrestling industry is extremely close faced, there's not an abundance of people in the industry wrestling, especially when you compare it to some of your examples - how many businessmen are there in America right now? Average and aggregate would have to both congruently be analysed to come up with an industry index of danger. Wrestlers do make choices, but what of the environment the wrestlers are expected to perform in? [LIST=1] [*]They are expected to be thrown around like rag dolls. The average businessman or retail worker does not have to get thrown on their back night after night after night [*]This brings about the need for pain killers, which become used as exponential rates. The average lunch room in a business office is not going to contain drugs, well at least not to the level the average locker room or hotel room for professional wrestlers might [*]Businessmen can expect a fair amount of nights at home with their families. Professional wrestlers are often disassociated from their families and so are cut off from reality [*]Businessmen can expect to behave rationally to earn a quid. Professional wrestlers are asked to expand on certain attitudes of society... is it normal mentality to be a grave digging dead man one second, and a family man the next? Not all have the mental dexterity to make that chance [*]Businessmen are not expected to have bulky pectorals, strong looking biceps. Professional wrestlers are, or they don't make it. [*]Businessmen are not expected to drive 200 miles down the road to the next town, with a couple of less than stable characters. [*]If you don't make it as a businessman at the top, you can probably still fill a first line manager's role somewhere. You don't make it to the WWE or maybe TNA, where do you? It increases the wrestlers desire to expand his skills - does that mean taking extra sick bumps and compensating with pain killers to get noticed? Does that mean bulking up beyond his means using steroids? [/LIST] The professional wrestling industry is synonomous with the need for, the distribution of, and the addiction to mental mind numbing drugs. Should we expect normal behaviour from these people on a per capita basis as opposed to your example of the average retail worker or businessman? You're asking a hell of a lot of them then - hey, we'll cheer for you when you smash someone with your roided up body -but you're bad if you can't take off that game face and get back to reality.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=darkfire423;252034]my point restated. WAhoo i am not a crazy fan.[/QUOTE] Honestly, I don't gwt you at all. You spent two days saying that it's all personal responsibility, and then hollered about how the industry had to be chenged, then argued because I tried to explain why wrestling isn't a sport, so athletic commissions really can't do much to control it. And it really doesn't make a difference if anyone agrees; the idea that the wrestling industry has nohing to do with the choices wrestlers make is ridiculous and a little naive.

[masterded]

On that HBO sports show a few years ago (the one that got piper fired) it was stated that a wrestler was 4 times more likely to dire before the age of 45 compared to that of average.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=masterded;252061]On that HBO sports show a few years ago (the one that got piper fired) it was stated that a wrestler was 4 times more likely to dire before the age of 45 compared to that of average.[/QUOTE] Without proof, I can make up just as many stats as I want to. I believe there is more deaths in the first five years someone retires, especially from the military. However, I don't have the statistic proof to make my point stand.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;252059]Honestly, I don't gwt you at all. You spent two days saying that it's all personal responsibility, and then hollered about how the industry had to be chenged, then argued because I tried to explain why wrestling isn't a sport, so athletic commissions really can't do much to control it. And it really doesn't make a difference if anyone agrees; the idea that the wrestling industry has nohing to do with the choices wrestlers make is ridiculous and a little naive.[/QUOTE] Well..... Technically this could end up a government issue. I hate to let them get involved, but it's the only one's that this would fall under actually. Just like having regulated Pilots and such, this could be regulated by the government as well. The biggest problem I have with that, is that the Government will have their hands in the cookie jar in yet another area..... I'm for smaller government power, far as that goes. However, that's the only logical choice I can see, if someone were to do something it would have to be them.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=tristram;252056]I have to disagree with you mate. Put it this way, industry A employs 800,000 people per year and suffers 30 deaths. Industry B employs 500 people per year and suffers 30 deaths. Which do you think is a problem? Going by your logic, both are as culpable as the other. One however is experiencing a 6% death rate per annum. The professional wrestling industry is extremely close faced, there's not an abundance of people in the industry wrestling, especially when you compare it to some of your examples - how many businessmen are there in America right now? Average and aggregate would have to both congruently be analysed to come up with an industry index of danger. Wrestlers do make choices, but what of the environment the wrestlers are expected to perform in? [LIST=1] [*]They are expected to be thrown around like rag dolls. The average businessman or retail worker does not have to get thrown on their back night after night after night [*]This brings about the need for pain killers, which become used as exponential rates. The average lunch room in a business office is not going to contain drugs, well at least not to the level the average locker room or hotel room for professional wrestlers might [*]Businessmen can expect a fair amount of nights at home with their families. Professional wrestlers are often disassociated from their families and so are cut off from reality [*]Businessmen can expect to behave rationally to earn a quid. Professional wrestlers are asked to expand on certain attitudes of society... is it normal mentality to be a grave digging dead man one second, and a family man the next? Not all have the mental dexterity to make that chance [*]Businessmen are not expected to have bulky pectorals, strong looking biceps. Professional wrestlers are, or they don't make it. [*]Businessmen are not expected to drive 200 miles down the road to the next town, with a couple of less than stable characters. [*]If you don't make it as a businessman at the top, you can probably still fill a first line manager's role somewhere. You don't make it to the WWE or maybe TNA, where do you? It increases the wrestlers desire to expand his skills - does that mean taking extra sick bumps and compensating with pain killers to get noticed? Does that mean bulking up beyond his means using steroids? [/LIST] The professional wrestling industry is synonomous with the need for, the distribution of, and the addiction to mental mind numbing drugs. Should we expect normal behaviour from these people on a per capita basis as opposed to your example of the average retail worker or businessman? You're asking a hell of a lot of them then - hey, we'll cheer for you when you smash someone with your roided up body -but you're bad if you can't take off that game face and get back to reality.[/QUOTE] That was over a 22 year (or longer) period of time. The football he was talking about was in one year's time. Wrestling has alot more then 500 people working in it. You have to count them all, from Ring of Honor, to TNA, to Ohio Valley Wrestling, and all over (the US), and compare it with Football, and you might be surprised. I don't know the stats to this, but I think there was a valid point made here. To say there is more "Need" for stronger etc.. athletes in wrestling then there is in Football, Basketball, Baseball, etc.. I just don't really believe that. You can achieve the physical structure without drugs. The choice is on the individual.... There was actually someone on this forum asking advice on how to build up, and steriods were brought up. It's a shame everyone forgets what goes on outside of wrestling, and makes wrestling out to be the worse.

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;252068]Well..... Technically this could end up a government issue. I hate to let them get involved, but it's the only one's that this would fall under actually. Just like having regulated Pilots and such, this could be regulated by the government as well. The biggest problem I have with that, is that the Government will have their hands in the cookie jar in yet another area..... I'm for smaller government power, far as that goes. However, that's the only logical choice I can see, if someone were to do something it would have to be them.[/QUOTE] As I stated vefore, often, it would be pretty hard for the government to intervene since a)the WWE has done nothing illegal and b) their performers all signed and negotiated their own contracts. Just like exotic dancers, its very hard to legally force a company to treat independent contractors better than they've let themselves be treated.

[tristram]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;252071]That was over a 22 year (or longer) period of time. The football he was talking about was in one year's time. Wrestling has alot more then 500 people working in it. You have to count them all, from Ring of Honor, to TNA, to Ohio Valley Wrestling, and all over (the US), and compare it with Football, and you might be surprised. I don't know the stats to this, but I think there was a valid point made here. To say there is more "Need" for stronger etc.. athletes in wrestling then there is in Football, Basketball, Baseball, etc.. I just don't really believe that. You can achieve the physical structure without drugs. The choice is on the individual.... There was actually someone on this forum asking advice on how to build up, and steriods were brought up. It's a shame everyone forgets what goes on outside of wrestling, and makes wrestling out to be the worse.[/QUOTE] I still don't agree with the numbers you believe are in pro wrestling. Beyond the NFL teams, there's millions of players who play gridiron. How many people are involved in organised wrestling?