Hall of Immortals

[Rocland]

[QUOTE=gazwefc83;428430]its set after summerslam 89 so thats after wrestlemania 6! also whats difference with future inductee and current?[/QUOTE] Summerslam 89 was after wrestlemania 5.. 6 was in 1990! Anyway, i don't really get the numeric values either.. what are they supposed to represent?

[gazwefc83]

sorry u are correct WM7 was 91, but YESSSS!!! the numeric values are abit confussing

[panix04]

Slightly biast, but Mick Foley does qualify in the editor, but only if you grant him iconic status, which i guess is a contentious point. Here is why: 3 WWE titles 4 headlining events one at mania, two at the royal rumble and one at summerslam 2 showstealing matches (match of the year winner acording to PWI) And the national Icon, which is I said is arguable, but he did transcend the sport with his books, plus he appeared on boy meets world - now thats iconic!

[Eisen-verse]

[QUOTE]Slightly biast, but Mick Foley does qualify in the editor, but only if you grant him iconic status, which i guess is a contentious point. Here is why: 3 WWE titles 4 headlining events one at mania, two at the royal rumble and one at summerslam 2 showstealing matches (match of the year winner acording to PWI) And the national Icon, which is I said is arguable, but he did transcend the sport with his books, plus he appeared on boy meets world - now thats iconic![/QUOTE] Foley is a tough one in some aspects since he is an Icon when it comes to a specific style of fan (ie: hardcore wrestling). He did a lot of great things all over the world as a "take any kind of bump" wrestler and put on some great matches. However, in the end, I don't know if he is really an [B]Immortal[/B]. I would say that he is a superstar... Possibly an Icon... (in some circles) but ultimately not an Immortal Wrestler.

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=Eisen-verse;428478]Foley is a tough one in some aspects since he is an Icon when it comes to a specific style of fan (ie: hardcore wrestling). He did a lot of great things all over the world as a "take any kind of bump" wrestler and put on some great matches. However, in the end, I don't know if he is really an [B]Immortal[/B]. I would say that he is a superstar... Possibly an Icon... (in some circles) but ultimately not an Immortal Wrestler.[/QUOTE] Say what you want, and I'm not even a huge hardcore fan, but 10 years from now they'll still be talking about Mick Foley's HiaC bump, his hardcore match with Edge at WM, his feuds in Japan. So that would make him a possible Icon in my books, even if it is just for Hardocre work. Even then, they say that the turning point in the Monday Night War was when Tony Schisahcoiashcoiashcohcoahvani said 'Mankind, who wrestled here as Cactus Jack, has just won the title - yeah that'll put bum on seats', so clearly alot of people cared about Mick Foley as the fun loving Mankind in the 90s too.

[Ping von Erich]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;427791]The criteria are set up for modern workers. Very few "historical figures" would legitimately make it in, as there were only two eligible world titles (SWF and BHOTWG) for the vast majority of the CornellVerse. That's why there's the option to add people in without requiring them to fulfill all the requirements, it's specifically for that situation.[/QUOTE] So you could use the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame as a base for a real world data HOI without taking out non wrestlers what not, leaving in your Vince McMahon's, Vince Jr.'s, Jim Barnett's, Gordon Solie's, etc. Very cool.

[soundsofsilver]

For WCW, I would say the top events were obviously Starrcade and Bash at the Beach (due to Hogan vs. Flair and the nWo matches alone), along with SuperBrawl, Great American Bash, and Halloween Havoc. Fall Brawl was a pretty big PPV, but never really featured World Title matches.

[Ping von Erich]

Starrcade was WCW's WrestleMania.. was for decades dating back to the peak of the NWA. The rest of WCW's PPV's were all on par with each other as "lesser" shows in my opinion.

[alden]

I think the great american bash should be atleast historic *it was the second true ppv that wcw had*

[Genadi]

Any wrestlers I wasn't sure of I just input there data into the HOI editor, the game will tell you if they're immortal or not. A really nifty feature for mod makers.

[BluePrint83]

What Cornellverse workers do you guys think should be in the Hall?

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

[QUOTE=BluePrint83;429014]What Cornellverse workers do you guys think should be in the Hall?[/QUOTE] Strangler Ed Henson Dan Stone George DeColt & Whipper Spencer Marks (Canadian Wolverines) * Mickey Starr Sam Strong Rip Chord Christian Faith * Tommy Cornell Dread * Sam Keith Master Kitozon Sadaharu Jimbo Hanshiro Furusawa * Hooded Kudo * El Patron Luis Montero Big Smack Scott Bruce the Giant * Sean McFly * Dan Stone Jr. * Elemental Optimus *- Disputable

[NoNeck]

Big Smack Scott is a no-brainer. :)

[The Phenom]

Real world starting with Hulkamania WWF/E: [B]Hulkster[/B] obviously [B]Macho Man Randy Savage[/B] - Multiple Title Reigns, Main events, Show Stealers, Most over face in '87, Heel in '88 [B]Undertaker [/B]- consistently over for 18 years. Titles, Matches, Main Events, Wrestlemania streak. [B]Stone Cold[/B] obviously [B]Rock[/B] obviously [B]HBK[/B] - Show stealers, Titles, Longevity, Icon [B]HHH [/B]- I don't want to neccessarily but he has 12 recognized reigns, countless main events, numerous five star matches so really bias aside its a no brainer. [B]Bret Hart[/B] - Somewhat debateable, but national Icon, 5 title reigns plus however many in WCW, has the matches, main events [B]Andre [/B]doesn't fit the criteria due to the lack of title reigns, but as someone mentioned thats more a product of the times before WWF went national. Foley barely misses the cut but he unlike the others was never a true top guy, each of the others had a sustained run at the top. WCW: [B]Flair[/B] [B]Sting[/B] theres no debate biggest star in wrestling during the biggest time in company history 7 time champion during original NWA/WCW, PWI Wrestler of the year, number one wrestler in PWI 500, PWI Most popular wrestler 4 times, PWI match of the year. I looked up PWI stats to give a few more examples but really no contest. He was the man in NWA/WCW from the moment he showed up and was responsible for their highest peak. And thats it no one else would be even close coming out of WCW. Tag Teams our there own entity, and before Hogan came along there are others, but for the 2 biggest Companies in America for the last 27 years 10 guys seem pretty elite.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=BluePrint83;429014]What Cornellverse workers do you guys think should be in the Hall?[/QUOTE] Sakurako Kagawa Heidi Brooks Sensational Ogiwara Crusher Ichihara Thunder Hike Victoria Stone (eventually, like when she gets to Heidi's age) Sakurako's easy. She created a niche from a failing section of the industry and turned it into the single most powerful entity of its kind in the world. Heidi is the equivalent of Moolah (or would be, if SWF actually had a women's division). The Big Three of 5SSW performed at the peak of excellence for over two decades together, helping to build 5SSW into the force it became. And honestly, if I have to explain why Victoria Stone warrants inclusion, someone doesn't actually play this game. How many bookers create and maintain bulletproof promotions? Now, how many do that while still maintaining a high level of performance in the ring themselves without always booking the titles for themselves?

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

[QUOTE=Remianen;429097]Sakurako Kagawa Heidi Brooks Sensational Ogiwara Crusher Ichihara Thunder Hike Victoria Stone (eventually, like when she gets to Heidi's age) Sakurako's easy. She created a niche from a failing section of the industry and turned it into the single most powerful entity of its kind in the world. Heidi is the equivalent of Moolah (or would be, if SWF actually had a women's division). The Big Three of 5SSW performed at the peak of excellence for over two decades together, helping to build 5SSW into the force it became. And honestly, if I have to explain why Victoria Stone warrants inclusion, someone doesn't actually play this game. How many bookers create and maintain bulletproof promotions? Now, how many do that while still maintaining a high level of performance in the ring themselves without always booking the titles for themselves?[/QUOTE] I'd agree with Kagawa and Ogiwara. Crusher Ichihara's disputable, but the other three, I don't see. Heidi's a victim of circumstance, as there never was much for her to win. The same reason why I wouldn't include anyone from the U.K. or Europe either. Thunder Hike is the third biggest name in a sub-national promotion, and even if you include Victoria's accomplishments as a booker, that boils down to, "OMG! My husband and brother just had a 5* match! LOL!"

[Chuck Jaywalk]

I find it funny that the very first wrestler who came to mind when I read 'Immortal' has not been mentioned. El Santo. El Santo fought mummies and aliens, and became the most transcendent figure in professional wrestling. More than Hogan, more than the Rock, El Santo became a figure of near worship. Hell, his son, El Hijo Del Santo almost ranks as an 'Immortal.' Any list of wrestling 'Immortals' MUST contain El Santo. I would argue for 'Blue Demon' as well, but I don't want to be pushy. P.S. As far as Americans go, Dusty Rhodes and Superstar Billy Graham are both easy picks. Dusty was the perfect foil to Ric's heel act and put on some truly amazing matches. Billy Graham is the great unrecognized talent in American wrestling. Would there have been a Hulk Hogan without Billy Graham?

[SteamOdin]

MUST HAVES FOR HOI (Undisputed, Must haves, no questions asked) [B]America:[/B] Lou Thesz, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan [B]Australia:[/B] [I]No one that would really fit in HoI that stands out, sorry Aussies![/I] [B]Canada:[/B] Tiger Jeet Singh, Bret Hart [B]Europe:[/B] Karl Gotch, Andre the Giant [B]Japan:[/B] Rikidozan, Giant Baba, Antonio Inoki, Manami Toyota (best female wrester EVER) [B]Mexico:[/B] El Santo, El Hijo Del Santo, Mil Mascaras, Dos Caras [B]United Kingdom:[/B] [I]No one that would really fit in HoI that stands out, sorry UK![/I] As for the rest, use your own discretion... wait for certain guys to retire, there are a few that are pretty much shoe ins such as Shawn Michaels, HHH, Jushin Thunder Liger, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, Kenta Kobashi, CIMA, Steve Austin, Masahiro Chono, Keiji Mutoh, Shinya Hashimoto, Steve Corino, Megumi Kudo, or any one of your favorite wrester from today or yesteryear (yesteryear, what an awful word.).

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=Steam☆Odin;429286]MUST HAVES FOR HOI (Undisputed, Must haves, no questions asked) [B]America:[/B] Lou Thesz, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan [B]Australia:[/B] [I]No one that would really fit in HoI that stands out, sorry Aussies![/I] [B]Canada:[/B] Tiger Jeet Singh, Bret Hart [B]Europe:[/B] Karl Gotch, Andre the Giant [B]Japan:[/B] Rikidozan, Giant Baba, Antonio Inoki, Manami Toyota (best female wrester EVER) [B]Mexico:[/B] El Santo, El Hijo Del Santo, Mil Mascaras, Dos Caras [B]United Kingdom:[/B] [I]No one that would really fit in HoI that stands out, sorry UK![/I] As for the rest, use your own discretion... wait for certain guys to retire, there are a few that are pretty much shoe ins such as Shawn Michaels, HHH, Jushin Thunder Liger, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, Kenta Kobashi, CIMA, Steve Austin, Masahiro Chono, Keiji Mutoh, Shinya Hashimoto, Steve Corino, Megumi Kudo, or any one of your favorite wrester from today or yesteryear (yesteryear, what an awful word.).[/quote] I find the presence of Steve Corino on your future list disturbing, considering there's a strong argument that he doesn't actually meet ANY of the criteria for HoI induction. It's almost as disturbing as your failure to even consider any of the World of Sport icons in the United Kingdom to be worthy of qualification, despite the fact that they permeate British culture to the degree that Hulk Hogan does in America. At the very least, I'd say you should be including Shirley "Big Daddy" Crabtree and Kendo Nagasaki in the HoI from the UK, and probably Giant Haystacks, too. Not to mention the missing people from the US scene. No Verne Gagne? No Jim Londos? No Ed "The Strangler" Lewis? No Farmer Burns, even?

[JD61572]

For the DOTT scenario, would no one be in the HOI to start off? Out of curiosity I put about 12 different people's stats into the editor using the following criteria... Major Champion: Anyone who held the NWA or WWF heavyweight title. Headliner: This is the one that was hardest to figure out, I'm not sure what would have counted as an historical or legendary event before April 1983. Maybe Showdown at Shea where Bruno fought Zbyszko in a cage? Show Stealer: I used the PWI match of the year for this but that only goes back to 1972 and focuses entirely on stuff that happened in the US. Year of Glory: PWI wrestler of the year but that has the same problem as above. National Icon: I only thought Andre, Baba, Inoki and Santo qualified at the time. Using that criteria I don't think anyone makes the HOI. Bruno and Race came closest I think. It doesn't seem right to me to just make up stuff for someone like Lou Thesz to make it in but it almost seems like that is what you have to do.

[Jennie Bomb]

You can set people to be automatically inducted regardless of their stats, so that shouldn't be a problem, I don't think.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=JD61572;429303]Using that criteria I don't think anyone makes the HOI. Bruno and Race came closest I think. It doesn't seem right to me to just make up stuff for someone like Lou Thesz to make it in but it almost seems like that is what you have to do.[/QUOTE] Please read my earlier post on the matter - it is specifically mentioned that the HOI is set up with modern day parameters, the option to have people in who don't meed the criteria is there for people from previous eras.

[MisterSocko]

[QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;429290]It's almost as disturbing as your failure to even consider any of the World of Sport icons in the United Kingdom to be worthy of qualification, despite the fact that they permeate British culture to the degree that Hulk Hogan does in America.[/QUOTE] The big difference is Hulk Hogan is famous worldwide, while Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks are famous in Britain. Remember the Sesame Street Rule that Adam Ryland suggested. Hogan, Flair, Austin, Big Daddy/Giant Haystacks One of these things is not like the others, One of these things just doesn't belong, Can you tell which thing is not like the others By the time I finish my song? Sorry but Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks just don't belong. It's the Hall of Immortals, not the Hall of Fame.

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=MisterSocko;429333]The big difference is Hulk Hogan is famous worldwide, while Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks are famous in Britain. Remember the Sesame Street Rule that Adam Ryland suggested. Hogan, Flair, Austin, Big Daddy/Giant Haystacks One of these things is not like the others, One of these things just doesn't belong, Can you tell which thing is not like the others By the time I finish my song? Sorry but Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks just don't belong. It's the Hall of Immortals, not the Hall of Fame.[/quote] Hah. If you're setting your bar that high, then you'd be down to what... Hogan and Andre? I mean, in terms of permeation of popular culture beyond wrestling, the WoS icons beat Austin by a fair margin, on account of Steve Austin being nothing outside of wrestling and all, in any country.

[MisterSocko]

Adam Ryland himself set the bar... I'll just quote him: [QUOTE=Adam Ryland;428060] People are still not really getting the [B]immortal[/B] part of the title, and I'm really struggling to think how much clearer I can make it; it's meant to be for the absolute elite, the best that the industry has ever seen. We're talking maybe a handful of guys in total. [I]It's not a hall of fame.[/I][/QUOTE] So yeah, you're down to just a handful of guys, including Steve Austin who's famous worldwide, and not including Giant Haystacks who's not. Even a non-wrestling fan has to have been living under a rock for the past fifteen years to have never heard of Stone Cold Steve Austin. You just can't say the same for any UK wrestler, period. It doesn't mean they're not good, it doesn't mean they don't deserve a spot in the pro wrestling hall of fame (=/= Adam Ryland's TEW 2008 Hall of Immortals), it just mean you can't consider they play in the same league as someone like Stone Cold Steve Austin.