The Final Countdown Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Celt" data-cite="The Celt" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Praise Jehovah, we finally have smark auto push. Time to dance all night long.</div></blockquote><p> Yes indeed. Too bad I don't have this feature in my ROH diary game--rather annoying that the game continues to try and auto-push Bryan Danielson as an Upper Midcarder, despite his being one of my most over guys in the Tri-State, where I run most of my big shows. </p><p> </p><p> This is a great addition for people like myself who prefer to play as smaller promotions.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praguepride Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BurningHamster" data-cite="BurningHamster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I really don't think road agents/writers/bookers have much role to play in putting together a comedy match as all the best comedy workers are generally in the indies putting their own matches together.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'd disagree with that 100% because by that logic indy workers are all great bookers because they have to do the wrestling themselves.</p><p> </p><p> I'm not saying that workers can't and don't have <em>any</em> input, I'm just saying from TEW's perspective, worker input is nil. </p><p> </p><p> I wouldn't disagree that comedy performance could have an impact, but then again The Rock never worked a "comedy" gimmick per se (i'd say his were mostly cool gimmicks <img alt=":cool:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/cool.png.f00d2562b2c1d873a09323753efdb041.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />) but he was excellent because of his phenomenal charisma.</p><p> </p><p> I can see your arguement but considering that performances are currently just used for gimmicks and nothing else, I see no reason why this should be the exception. Otherwise why doesn't "brute" effect menace angles, for example.</p><p> </p><p> I think you're looking at it backwards. A worker entertaining enough to be good in a comedy match would therefore be good in a comedy gimmick, not the other way around.</p><p> </p><p> Just like a menacing worker makes a great brute because they're menacing, not that a great brute worker means they're menacing...does that make any sense?</p><p> </p><p> To put it another way, even if a worker isn't great in comedy themselves, they could make an excellent straight man which in many comedic circles is considered the driving force of the joke.</p><p> </p><p> So if an entertaining worker has F- for comedy gimmicks because they're such a straight laced person, they could still pull off excellent comedy matches by being the "straight man" so to speak, the one setting up the jokes for the "comedy guy" to deliver.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crayon Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Should be interesting to see if this new feature wrecks havoc with my rosters after 08-10 mod conversion <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> Will have to get out the fine tooth comb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningHamster Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="praguepride" data-cite="praguepride" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'd disagree with that 100% because by that logic indy workers are all great bookers because they have to do the wrestling themselves.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Um, how do you figure that? That is not what I am saying at all. Is a good spot monkey a great booker because he puts his flippy spots into a match? Is a hardcore worker a great booker because he does his own chair shots? No, they are just a worker using the skills they have to perform a particular kind of match.</p><p> </p><p> Unfortunately this view lends itself to the argument of comedy being a skill in and of itself even though I am firmly against adding new stats. Same way eyecandy matches, puroresu matches, hardcore matches are all styles which incorporate certain generic techniques and conventions and rely on a worker's aptitude in particular skills, I would argue that comedy matches are similar. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I'm not saying that workers can't and don't have <em>any</em> input, I'm just saying from TEW's perspective, worker input is nil. </p><p> </p><p> I wouldn't disagree that comedy performance could have an impact, but then again The Rock never worked a "comedy" gimmick per se (i'd say his were mostly cool gimmicks <img alt=":cool:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/cool.png.f00d2562b2c1d873a09323753efdb041.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />) but he was excellent because of his phenomenal charisma.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes, he could be comedic in interviews and skits because of his charisma but</p><p> how many comedy <strong>matches</strong> do you recall The Rock doing? I think here lies a problem, being funny on the mic and being funny in the ring are a little different. Lots of people can be funny in an interview without it really taking away from their character too much but if The Rock or Steve Austin busted out a bunch of slapstick groin shots, Colt Cabana style failed kip up attempts etc it would take away from their push, the heat of their matches and feuds and their character's representation.</p><p> </p><p> Comedy matches are in essence an entirely different thing from being comedic in interviews, and while some of the same skills may be incorporated (acting and charisma) to say that anyone with high acting and charisma should by definition be able to put on good comedy matches is false. This is where I am a little unsure as to how the comedy match style as outlined can be implemented without it simply being an entertainment skills match as opposed to strictly a comedy match.</p><p> </p><p> EDIT - I do agree with you on the straight man comment though, which again I think makes this a rather difficult thing to implement.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BurningHamster" data-cite="BurningHamster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Hmm, which to me is a little problematic unless it maybe also takes into account (heavily) the comedy performance aspect. I am against new stats but, to give real world examples, guys like Stone Cold would have very high entertainment stats but would not really be considered as good comedy workers. On the other hand someone like Ebessan/Ebetaro/Kikutaro/whatever he calls himself these days also should have good entertainment stats (but not as good as Austin) but is the master of the modern comedy match and has pretty much made his career based on comedy.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Somebody missed out on post 2001 Steve Austin, apparently.</p><p> </p><p> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SY9A_oXwgw" rel="external nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SY9A_oXwgw</a></p><p> </p><p> "I'm eatin' the cookies! I love the cookies!"</p><p> </p><p> Your Rock and Austin examples don't hold water either, because that's a function of WWE's product, not of their worker's ability. The fact that it would take away from their character has nothing to do with the fact that because they have such natural CHARISMA they could easily incorporate comedy spots into their work if WWE was the type of company that pushed comedy guys. The things that make you good at physical comedy: connection to the crowd, facial expressions, acting ability, etc. are already covered, so there just is not a need for a separate stat in any way, shape or form.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningHamster Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Somebody missed out on post 2001 Steve Austin, apparently.<p> </p><p> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SY9A_oXwgw" rel="external nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SY9A_oXwgw</a></p><p> </p><p> "I'm eatin' the cookies! I love the cookies!"</p><p> </p><p> Your Rock and Austin examples don't hold water either, because that's a function of WWE's product, not of their worker's ability. The fact that it would take away from their character has nothing to do with the fact that because they have such natural CHARISMA they could easily incorporate comedy spots into their work if WWE was the type of company that pushed comedy guys. The things that make you good at physical comedy: connection to the crowd, facial expressions, acting ability, etc. are already covered, so there just is not a need for a separate stat in any way, shape or form.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Somebody missed WWE in general since 2001ish, although saying I "missed" it would be an overstatement. By the way, that was a nice little SKIT or ANGLE you showed there ... not really a match though is it? </p><p> </p><p> My point is that there is MORE to a comedy match than just charisma. Some people are more charismatic than others and this is a skill which is very important in comedy matches, but the most charismatic guy will not always be the best at comedy matches. The least charismatic will not necessarily be the worst which is why I am a little hesitant about it how it will be implemented.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BurningHamster" data-cite="BurningHamster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Somebody missed WWE in general since 2001ish, although saying I "missed" it would be an overstatement. By the way, that was a nice little SKIT or ANGLE you showed there ... not really a match though is it? <p> </p><p> My point is that there is MORE to a comedy match than just charisma. Some people are more charismatic than others and this is a skill which is very important in comedy matches, but the most charismatic guy will not always be the best at comedy matches. The least charismatic will not necessarily be the worst which is why I am a little hesitant about it how it will be implemented.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> And my point was that you are wrong, that the skills that help tell a good comedy match are the same ones that help a worker deliver memorable promos and angles. If you had any evidence to support your position other than generic claims that charismatic guys are not good at comedy matches maybe there'd be some credence to what you're saying, but earlier you gave an example that was flawed and your response is just a statement: "but the most charismatic guy will not always be the best at comedy matches," which you don't support at all. I don't think you're selling anyone on the idea.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Century Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 This argument is making my head spin! <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/eek.png.0e09df00fa222c85760b9bc1700b5405.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /><img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/confused.png.d4a8e6b6eab0c67698b911fb041c0ed1.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningHamster Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <p>This argument is just making my pants soft. I can't believe I am engaged in a debate about what stats should contribute to what degree in a match that is usually an undercard work the crowd kind of match that most people don't care about.</p><p> </p><p> Lazorbeak, have you modded data and have you watched comedy matches?</p><p> </p><p> Would a Ric Flair, a John Cena, a Steve Austin have higher charisma in a TEW mod than an Ebetaro, a Colt Cabana or a Larry Sweeney? I believe they would. Are the most charismatic workers in the C-Verse the more comedic guys? Can you find me a Steve Austin MATCH (not angle, not promo, not skit, not anything else besides a match) that is more comedic, funnier, goofier, in essence a better COMEDY match than what Ebetaro/Ebessan/Whatever he calls himself at the moment has been doing regularly for a decade? Some workers do comedy and develop the skills for that well without necessarily becoming blow away charismatic main event level promo cutters and actors. I just don't believe charisma which is often used in a serious sense both in the real world of wrestling and the statistical world of TEW is the be all and end all of in ring, often non-verbal comedy wrestling and in my mind a match called comedy but based on charisma has the potential to be a pretty big misnomer.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crayon Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I'm happy to make the concession of the existing stats applying to comedy matches in the framework of TEW, but for discussion purposes I'm going to side with Burning Hamster on this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 The new smart auto push feature sounds awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganRodzen Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kainlock" data-cite="Kainlock" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Plus remember the first few times fo "What".</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm not the only one who hated this... am I? <img alt=":confused:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/confused.png.d4a8e6b6eab0c67698b911fb041c0ed1.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> The fact it still happens to this day is annoying as hell.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BurningHamster" data-cite="BurningHamster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This argument is just making my pants soft. I can't believe I am engaged in a debate about what stats should contribute to what degree in a match that is usually an undercard work the crowd kind of match that most people don't care about.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Then stop.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BurningHamster" data-cite="BurningHamster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Lazorbeak, have you modded data and have you watched comedy matches?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes and yes and even if I hadn't it's a complete fallacy to assume that would change the fact that you're wrong on this, since you're the one that wants a new stat for one specific match-type for reasons that remain nebulous.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BurningHamster" data-cite="BurningHamster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Would a Ric Flair, a John Cena, a Steve Austin have higher charisma in a TEW mod than an Ebetaro, a Colt Cabana or a Larry Sweeney? I believe they would. Are the most charismatic workers in the C-Verse the more comedic guys? Can you find me a Steve Austin MATCH (not angle, not promo, not skit, not anything else besides a match) that is more comedic, funnier, goofier, in essence a better COMEDY match than what Ebetaro/Ebessan/Whatever he calls himself at the moment has been doing regularly for a decade? Some workers do comedy and develop the skills for that well without necessarily becoming blow away charismatic main event level promo cutters and actors. I just don't believe charisma which is often used in a serious sense both in the real world of wrestling and the statistical world of TEW is the be all and end all of in ring, often non-verbal comedy wrestling and in my mind a match called comedy but based on charisma has the potential to be a pretty big misnomer.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Why do I have to prove the negative here? What do you do about the Eddie and Chavo Guerreros, the Santinos, the Al Snows, the guys that have done comedy matches who also happen to have very good charisma? Again, Austin and other guys that haven't had comedy matches (although several have had comedy gimmicks) do so because the product isn't suited for main eventers doing it, not because they can't. Where is it written that charisma requires seriousness? What about Chris Jericho, John Cena, Mick Foley, The Rock, Roddy Piper, and so on? Just because charisma is "often" used in a serious capacity doesn't mean there's a bar there.</p><p> </p><p> And if the fear is that it will somehow turn into a "cheat" for SE promotions to somehow put on comedy main events simply by having comedy as a feature of the product, first, we haven't actually PLAYED THE GAME, and second, comparing it to, say, 08's "eye candy" match types, it seems unlikely that just calling a match a "comedy" match will mean that it gets a great rating. Since comedy matches tend to be used mostly as breaks in the action I doubt they'll result in many epic encounters, but this way products with comedy get a bonus for comedy matches in a way that hardcore promotions are rewarded for putting on hardcore matches or eye candy promotions are rewarded for presenting eye candy.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningHamster Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Then stop.<p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Yes and yes and even if I hadn't it's a complete fallacy to assume that would change the fact that you're wrong on this, since you're the one that wants a new stat for one specific match-type for reasons that remain nebulous.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Read back, I actually said I am against a new stat. <img alt=":rolleyes:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/rolleyes.png.4b097f4fbbe99ce5bcd5efbc1b773ed6.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> So I am not sure why you are so thoroughly on the attack about a match type being based solely on one or two stats which are only part of the picture.</p><p> </p><p> I didn't want to bother reading the rest of what you said since you didn't bother reading what I said. But why should a guy who performs well in comedy who say has a comedic gimmick not perform better in a comedy match than someone who is devoid of comedy performance skills, has a serious gimmick but is equally rated on charisma or cuts a better serious promo?</p><p> </p><p> I'm not trying to bring in new stats, I'm just trying to imagine how the match could best be approximated in the game using the existing skillsets of workers in much the same way, as you mentioned, of hardcore and eyecandy promotions giving a little boost for workers or matches who are skillful at, or which accentuate, the relevant skills.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praguepride Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 You could apply that logic to everything. Why would a charismatic guy be good as good as a realistic gimmick as a goofy one. Shouldn't they have a "realistic" charisma stat and an "goofy" charisma stat. There's a world of difference between Santino and The Rock. HOWEVER you could also expand your paradigm a bit and look at combinations of stats. The Rock has high charisma, high star quality. Santino has high charisma, low star quality. He's great at sucking in the crowd and he's definitely entertaining, but you can't picture him being the #1 wrestler, can you. As for corbana (or whatever), yes I'd rate successful comedy workers as having great entertainment skills. Just maybe not very high star quality so although entertaining, they're never really "popular" My guess is that the comedy match will be treated like other matches. Entertainment + Performance + Popularity. Easy-peasy. Actually there's a lot more variables going in like momentum, storyline heat, card position blah blah blah, but you're saying "i wonder how it will work" and here is me giving you a best approximation. Comedy matches will be rated like normal matches, but entertainment skills will be added into the mix and probably given a fair amount of weight to them. There will also probably be an inherent penalty because it should be nigh impossible to get a stellar comedy match. Sure it might be funny, but it won't engage the audience like a real match between two real workers. It might make great filler, even boost the audience, but it can't compare to a main event match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Stranger Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 You could apply that logic to everything. Why would a charismatic guy be good as good as a realistic gimmick as a goofy one. Shouldn't they have a "realistic" charisma stat and an "goofy" charisma stat. *silently points at the Performance sliders that, in fact, were referenced right at the start of this tangent* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddyGarner Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I don't think it's an issue of that their needs be a comedy match stat so much as their needs to be a break down of the psychology stat. Like performance(small p) skills their could be psychology skills also affects road agents(if you chose a specific match type it will automatically chose the road agent with highest psychology stat): Comedy: Ability to use entertainment skills to tell a comedy style match Selling Sex: Ability to use sex appeal to tell a match that sells lots of skin etc. This would be a great opportunity to make Buttercup a viable road agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeemuFoundation Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I love the new Venue feature, as I love the regional overness feature from yesterday, but I would also want to be able to set a "home venue" for a promotion, like the ECW arena or the Universal Studios in the early days of WCW. A modern day example would be TNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl_Kitsch Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Exclusive Venues sounds hot! Even if it only gives certain companies a little more flavor, I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeel1 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 WWE's the only wrestling company allowed to use MSG? ...I was not aware of that..still pretty cool feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvdWarrior Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>If I remember correctly, I suggested something about 'Home Bases in TEW" once upon a time, many moons ago, so needless to say, I like this latest feature a lot. I always envisioned DAVE having a home arena I liked to call 'The Danger Zone' - an 'ECW Arena' for the CornellVerse. I think it'd be neat to see something like that floating around out there.</p><p> </p><p> <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestleManiac Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I like the promotion exclusive venues, but will they be negotiable in-game? or will it be a feature set in the editor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day_Dreamer Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 It'd be cooler if there is a way to use the opposing company's exclusive venue, as a war tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamchatka Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>Im intrigued to know if this is a function that can happen "in-game" will there be more venues introduced into the world..</p><p> </p><p> The logic being that if you go into contract with the small venue in the Tri-state area.. it kind of scuppers all the other regionals..</p><p> </p><p> Then again I guess its possible this is a feature that only applies to the big companies.</p><p> </p><p> Whichever way, I love it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeemuFoundation Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Day_Dreamer" data-cite="Day_Dreamer" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25024" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It'd be cooler if there is a way to use the opposing company's exclusive venue, as a war tactic.</div></blockquote><p> Wouldn't that, sort of, defeat the purpose of the entire feature?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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