The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[PoisonedSuperman]

The thing is if someone has little training they can always get better, if some one has been wrestling for ten years they should already be pretty much what they're going to be. It'll be harder to mold that person then it would be to mold a youngster.

[Slim Jim]

The "few touches" he's missing are the key ones though, and the ones that it's harder (or impossible) to teach. He was so, so boring. At least Miss USA is interesting, and she can learn the stuff Matt knows. Trish even said that Rima is a lot like she was when she started, and look how that turned out. And I don't think anyone expects Skidmark to win being the way he is but Cross pissed Austin off in a big way in the final three by completely missing the point. "Permission to say something"? Are you kidding? I'd have done the same thing as Austin.

 

It doesn't matter if they can't wrestle at this point; they can learn that. They might get an immediate run on the main roster if they're lucky but they'll end up in FCW at some point to polish up their skills. What they need NOW is to show that they have the desire and "it" factor to make it. Matt didn't have either.

[LoNdOn]

The thing is if someone has little training they can always get better, if some one has been wrestling for ten years they should already be pretty much what they're going to be. It'll be harder to mold that person then it would be to mold a youngster.

 

And by the same token you can train someone to be better at acting. The Miz went to acting classes after all.

[OctoberRaven]

Boogeyman was AWESOME before the whole worms thing became the central focus of his character. It was a cheesy gimmick that would never sell tickets, but damn if it didn't make for moments that made me fall off my seat laughing.

[ampulator]

Oh, you mean it like THAT. Well, it's not my kind of humor. Besides, I'm more of a fan of Goldust. Now THAT'S an example of a near-impossible-to-succeed character and gimmick that somehow managed to get worked by a nondescript yet decent worker to make into something that worked extremely well.

 

Seriously, if you told me the description of Goldust, I would have thought "Oh my god, Wrestlecrap, and the worst kind!", but it the worker worked well with it. It just freakin' worked. I don't know how it worked, and I understand why it does, but it freakin' did, and it freakin' does.

 

That's a perfect example of "this turd will never work" becoming "Oh my god, this...is...magic!!!"

[djthefunkchris]

The boogeyman was terrible. I have no idea what you are takling about. That's a terrible example. He was replaced. Easily.

It was a terrible in ring performer, but his version of the gimmick was totally awesome. From the walk down to the ring, to the singing, to the eary laugh. He did a great job of it, and it got him on some PPV's. I don't know how anyone could not see at least that much, unless they just aren't getting the point, which is what I believe has happened here. Everyone knows he sucked in the ring (far as wrestling). The character he brought forth though, if not for his sucking in the ring, would probably still be a major part of the promotion.

And what have Tough Enough unearthed? Any one of them look replaceable (with Luke being the exception), hell, half of them have little to no training and don't look or act like they have "it". You could throw a stone out on a local street and hit five people who are no different.

 

I think I must be missing the point of the show. It is enjoyable to watch from an entertainment perspective but the criteria for which they assess the contestants is beyond me. Do I want to hire the guy who gets dizzy from a forward roll and admitted that he would leave if his girlfriend asked him to come home, the girl who pads her ass to run the ropes and disrespects the whole process by turning up late, or the guy who can work a good match and just needs a rew touches here and there? Seems like an easy choice to me but like I said, I must be missing the point somewhat.

 

EDIT: Also, what you described is seeing who are good character actors, Tough Enough should be to see who the best and most capable in-ring talents are. If they want good character actors, go to a theatre school and train those guys to be wrestlers.

IF your watching the same show as I am, then I'm definately not seeing the same thing you are. Trish got him in the ring and asked him to show her something... he didn't. He was in the ring with a "GREEN" wrestler, and the other guy showed him up. I'm sorry, but if you go by what you "SEE", there is no way you can come up with the same scenario you just brought on.... The guy didn't do anything that Miss USA didn't do, and for the most part, she did it better.

 

I wish he wasn't out, I really do. I was rooting for him... I wanted him to tell Steve Austin "You want to know why you should keep me instead of these two? Because I'm good, I'm the best guy you got here. You shouldn't even have me in this line up right now! I don't know what the hell happened, but I can tell you this, I'm not letting it happen again!" I do believe Austin would have got rid of that other guy had he done that. Fact is, I thought that all up till the point Cross started talking, making up excuses and trying to suck up. Soon as he started doing that I knew he was history, but I still was hoping he would show a backbone, but never did.

 

Any three of those people could have gone, depending on how they handled Austin's questions. He didn't like most of them, but especially Cross messed his chances up all by himself. He just got done saying "No excuse!" and he goes "Well, umm, this here is the reason, umm, permission to speak sir, I umm... I have the utmost respect for you guys, ummm.... "

 

And by the same token you can train someone to be better at acting. The Miz went to acting classes after all.

 

It's not all about acting, it's about attitude, putting in the work.

 

Look, I can see you like this guy, and I can see why you like this guy. He's a VERY nice guy. I would have loved to see him go the distance, I really would have. However, your overlooking everything that's been said, making excuses just like he did, instead of looking at it head-on... HE goofed, he didn't recover, he's out. B..b...bbb.... Buttt.... Miss USA was late..... THe other guy was a goof..... That's not the point. The point is they are all supposed to give 100% and then some, and he gave 10% of what he is capable of... He was waiting to do something spectacular, rather then wasting it in the first week or two. I see where he's coming from, but you have to show them the first day if you can (not just this show, but life in general...IF you want that job, you do your best and hope you top yourself every time, so you can GET that job. You don't do mediocre and wait till everyone is going Wow, wonder who can do something like that, and then like superman Switch up and SHOW THEM ALL WHAT YOU CAN DO!.. You do it from the start, and every chance you have from then on to do it again. Each time, try to do it better, but don't hold out thinking that you're going to make that surprise victory in the end.

Boogeyman was AWESOME before the whole worms thing became the central focus of his character. It was a cheesy gimmick that would never sell tickets, but damn if it didn't make for moments that made me fall off my seat laughing.

It did sell tickets though. Heck, I would have paid to go see that guy for an autograph session. I hated the worms, but I loved the character. I can't remember anyone pulling off a similar character so easily.... The little convulsion shakes as he come to the ring... it was great, better then some movies.

[LoNdOn]

My point was and remains, that he was clearly not the worst on the show and if they are judging everybody by the same criterea, he shouldn't have been eliminated this early. I'm not even an out and out Matt Cross fan, I just can't understand how he got the boot when others who are clearly worse in every facet remain.

 

I agree Matt should have shown more when he was given the chance after Trish gave him the opportunity, but I will contest the idea that he should have been doing the fancy stuff from day one. Had he come in during the headlock takedown session and done a backflip leg drop they would have been like, "that's impressive but that's not what we asked you to do." It's difficult to show your repertoire when running the ropes. He definately should have done his cool moves during the one-on-one with Luke though, but from my standpoint it wasn't enough to send him home at this junction. I can respect others' opinions on the decision, but it doesn't mean I agree with it.

[machinesxe]

Just got back from Smackdown here in Albany NY and since this is the place Edge won his first World Title at New Years Revolution it made complete sense to go full circle and give up the title here tonight. Edge is a instant hall of famer and now with him gown WWE feels a little more empty...Like he was the final piece of that 98-2002 series that held the WWE together...

[ampulator]

It was a terrible in ring performer, but his version of the gimmick was totally awesome. From the walk down to the ring, to the singing, to the eary laugh. He did a great job of it, and it got him on some PPV's. I don't know how anyone could not see at least that much, unless they just aren't getting the point, which is what I believe has happened here. Everyone knows he sucked in the ring (far as wrestling). The character he brought forth though, if not for his sucking in the ring, would probably still be a major part of the promotion.

 

Oh, I got the gimmick. I just thought it didn't work. It was well-executed, I give it that. But it was still a bad gimmick. On top of that, it wasn't introduced correctly.

 

One of the few reasons Goldust worked was it was introduced the right way. Do you recall how the gimmick was introduced? It was introduced on a day where the gimmick wouldn't have been so out-of-place... a Halloween-theme WWF event. It was still odd, but considering Vince himself was dressed as vampire, commentating on the show, it didn't feel so bad.

 

Boogeyman is one of those gimmicks where EVERYTHING has to go right for it to succeed, and if it didn't, it would absolutely fail. And it did. It is all-or-nothing would those kind of gimmicks. He performed well as the gimmick, but he was introduced in the wrong fashion, and certainly his ringwork didn't help issues.

[Jaysin]

Oh, I got the gimmick. I just thought it didn't work. It was well-executed, I give it that. But it was still a bad gimmick. On top of that, it wasn't introduced correctly.

 

One of the few reasons Goldust worked was it was introduced the right way. Do you recall how the gimmick was introduced? It was introduced on a day where the gimmick wouldn't have been so out-of-place... a Halloween-theme WWF event. It was still odd, but considering Vince himself was dressed as vampire, commentating on the show, it didn't feel so bad.

 

Boogeyman is one of those gimmicks where EVERYTHING has to go right for it to succeed, and if it didn't, it would absolutely fail. And it did. It is all-or-nothing would those kind of gimmicks. He performed well as the gimmick, but he was introduced in the wrong fashion, and certainly his ringwork didn't help issues.

 

Just because you didn't like it, it doesn't mean the gimmick didn't work. Were you ever in attendance when Boogeyman was there? The crowd went nuts every time.

 

When they teased that he'd replace Bischoff as GM of Raw the crowd went BALLISTIC. The only person that got any pop as big as him that night was Cena.

[The Final Countdown]

Gotta say, I'm pretty surprised to see people saying The Boogeyman was a success. I rarely ever watched WWE back then, so I'm certainly not the best person to judge...but I never heard about him doing anything of note. I never heard people talk about his angles or matches, and I definitely didn't see any kids wearing Boogeyman shirts. Did the gimmick really get over? And if it did, why didn't he stick around?

[Jaysin]

Every time I went to a show when Boogeyman was around there were lots of kids wearing his shirt. The gimmick wasn't the most successful thing ever, but he always got a decent sized pop when his music hit.

[ampulator]

Just because you didn't like it, it doesn't mean the gimmick didn't work. Were you ever in attendance when Boogeyman was there? The crowd went nuts every time.

 

When they teased that he'd replace Bischoff as GM of Raw the crowd went BALLISTIC. The only person that got any pop as big as him that night was Cena.

You really shouldn't mention Cena... that's another topic altogether. But I was watching back then, and while the fans weren't booing, they weren't "popping" either. And it wasn't the guy didn't do a good job-he did. I give him that. But if you look at history, it just didn't work. It wasn't his fault; it was the WWE.

 

Had they booked him as well as Goldust, and had he just became bearable in the ring, he would have done fine. But like I said before, gimmicks like that are all or nothing. One element off, and it just doesn't work.

 

For example, I hated Val Venis's gimmick. Its' even dumber than the Boogeyman and Goldust. A porn star in wrestling? Why? But it just worked. It had the right introduction, the right worker, and, at least in the beginning, the right booking. Miss one element, though, and it all falls apart. Do you understand what I'm saying here?

 

That's what happened to the boogeyman. Several elements were off... the ring work, first, but that could have been corrected. The introduction, was a second. A good introduction is a very important (Y2J, anyone?). And most importantly, good booking, especially in the beginning. But they booked him stupid.

 

And that's why the Boogeyman didn't work. I'm not saying it can NEVER work, I'm saying it DIDN'T work. Could it? Possibly. Did it? No.

[critical-23]

To be fair, it was a showcase match that was given like five minuites. You're kind of supposed to be spotty in those situations. I've only seen him work once before in Mexico and he didn't do much so I can't tell you how psychologically sound he is, but lucha libre in general is a well-coreographed, organized chaos style rather than just a mindless series of flippy stunts.

 

This is the reason why I couldn't get into lucha until I went to a CMLL event a few years back because all I saw were music vids of the dives but in person the atmosphere is just so electric.

 

Now with Sin Cara being spotty within a 5 minute match--I'm cool with it since it is WWE. Still trying to see how he will fare against the likes of Miz, Kane (well, not really since Kane does great work with Rey IMO), Khali, Cena, or any wrestler OTHER than R-Truth, Ziggler, Morrison (who won't be getting a push thanks to his attitude AND Melina) AKA wrestlers are can sell moves. My fingers are crossed either way.

[Teh_Showtime]

He will likely feud with Ziggler though when/if him and Morrrison are done in order to get up there with the top guys.

[FlameSnoopy]

Pretty much all Mistico's singles matches I have seen (I have seen quite a few) start with him getting a decent start. Then the heel dominates, until Mistico launches up with his awesome moves to electrify the crowd. Its just that he does the end part so well, that it makes every match atleast decent. I have to say, he isn't psychologically the best wrestler, or even close to that. I have never seen him really shine in that aspect, but it doesn't matter. He has the needed star aura to make anything work.

[milamber]

It was hard to tell from the quick footage but I suspect Matt Cross thought Trish meant an entertainment style match where he could show off his aerial skills and then the other guy came in and just no-sell wrestled and dominated him. I think he was confused about what he needed to do to impress the judges and just dug a hole he couldn't get out of, but he's clearly talented.

 

 

As for Smackdown, with Edge gone they need to make Christian the top face right away. Have him beat Del Rio at Extreme Rules, then have Del Rio take the title off him later in the year.

[Hive]

 

That match was awesome. This is the stuff WWE needs, I really wish they would reintroduce a cruiserweight division.

[crownsy]

It was hard to tell from the quick footage but I suspect Matt Cross thought Trish meant an entertainment style match where he could show off his aerial skills and then the other guy came in and just no-sell wrestled and dominated him. I think he was confused about what he needed to do to impress the judges and just dug a hole he couldn't get out of, but he's clearly talented.

 

 

As for Smackdown, with Edge gone they need to make Christian the top face right away. Have him beat Del Rio at Extreme Rules, then have Del Rio take the title off him later in the year.

 

Thats how I'd book it, but you know what the IWC will say "How predictable"

 

Sometimes the swerve isn't needed, thats a great way to salvage this whole unfortunate situation a bit, give Christan the belt his friend had to forfit and drag a Christan - Del rio fued out a bit before eventually Swapping the title.

[Self]

It was hard to tell from the quick footage but I suspect Matt Cross thought Trish meant an entertainment style match where he could show off his aerial skills and then the other guy came in and just no-sell wrestled and dominated him. I think he was confused about what he needed to do to impress the judges and just dug a hole he couldn't get out of, but he's clearly talented.

 

 

It seemed to me that the major complaint Trish had was that he was expressionless and robotic in his movements. Well executed, but lacking passion and soul with his body language and facial expressions. It's a common complaint about indy guys. They do marvelous flipz, but you can't see pain or anger or joy or fear in their eyes because they're too busy trying to remember what spot comes next. From the edit, I saw that as a valid complaint in Matt Cross, so that's what I assumed Trish Stratus and Hugh Morrus had a problem with... and the lack of flips.

 

Luke did seem to get more offense in, but I'm thinking editing had something to do with it. If they had a problem with Luke 'winning' the wrestling match, that's a retarded way to judge things. Not that you can't show personality while taking a kicking. Maybe you're right though. 3 minutes with an uncooperative guy can make it tricky to get your moves in. I get the feeling the edit is being very complimentary to Luke. Maybe he's the only one doing interesting stuff, but he's all over everything, being put over for his bromance as much as his ring work.

 

P.S. LOL at Luke's "big move" being a step-off-the-back elbow.

[MrOnu]

I'll reserve my final judgment on Sin Cara for later as I haven't seen any of his previous work, but please get rid of the jumping entrance with the trampoline for his own safety. Else, he's going to end up head first on the top rope at some point.

 

Oh and dear god... R-Truth in a world title match on PPV ? Really ?

[joehelmer]

After watching RAW I feel a little empty inside after Edge retired, but his future health is more important than his career so it was good that he retired before he would end up in wheelchair.

 

The Hulkster is on deep water when he criticize Edge on retiring, and then mention those people as an example. Several of them are drug addicts, have health issues or died before 50, as been said already.

 

Sin Cara seems to be very talented, even Primo looked good out there even though he botched the first attempt on the finisher. Can't wait to see him in a feud with for example Ziggler, it should be good.

[crownsy]

That match was awesome. This is the stuff WWE needs, I really wish they would reintroduce a cruiserweight division.

 

 

See, i guess im just unclear at what was so great about this match. Not that it wasen't solid, but why was it "awesome"? because there were alot of gymnastic spots in it?

 

Maybe that's why im not really all that upset with the Matt Cross getting cut early thing.

 

Daniels was daniels, and put on a really good show. But what did Mdogg really do? He had a Nice high leg lariat and a pretty athleticly astounding backflip spinning plancha thing on CD at the 8 minute mark.

 

So aside from the other gymnastic spots, What I'm saying is he didnt really show me much I havent seen out of a ton of other guys, some of whom are on the WWE roster.

 

Thats one of the things i think may stall Sin Cara, is that he has alot of flash but not much physcology and ability to tell a match. But Cara, even from the limited mistco stuff Ive seen and his early WWE work has something...just that "It" that makes you sit up and take notice.

 

Cross doesn't. He's just an athletic middleweight/lightweight guy who does high spots. Weeee.

 

Thats an ok guy to have around i suppose, but the WWE already has a enough of those guys (Bourne, JG, primo, tyson Kidd, (who does much more than high spots but still), cara ect.

 

I just don't really get why i'm supposed to be all hot and bothered about another guy who is really athletic but not polished beyond spots and selling a bit not winning tough enough. I think there looking for more than another mid card spot monkey cruiserweight.

 

Not sure they'll find it, and Not saying that some people don't like that style (hell I do to, love Evan Bourne and Tyson Kidd, wish they'd get better pushs/TV time) but I'm just not clear why I'm supposed to be outraged they cut another "more of the same" guy.

[djthefunkchris]

I'm going to be honest as well. Shame on him for not doing some of that stuff! Now, don't get me wrong, I know Daniels can make anyone look good, knows how to be in the right place at the right time, but jeesh, this guy was exciting in that match. I wish he could have done something like that for TE.

 

I understand the thoughts of "Just like half a dozen other's on the roster". I also don't think doing a bunch of flips and being exciting means "Main Event" material... Fact is I feel it's lower card material... But it makes the lower cards exciting, not boring, which is something I would rather see at least half of the time. I wouldn't have had him on that show, I would have just put him in FCW and seen what happened there.

 

Ah well, he didnt' show them THAT and now he's gone. Maybe TNA will see it and grab him? I don't know. Good luck to him though.

[juggaloninjalee]

I'm going to be honest as well. Shame on him for not doing some of that stuff! Now, don't get me wrong, I know Daniels can make anyone look good, knows how to be in the right place at the right time, but jeesh, this guy was exciting in that match. I wish he could have done something like that for TE.

 

I understand the thoughts of "Just like half a dozen other's on the roster". I also don't think doing a bunch of flips and being exciting means "Main Event" material... Fact is I feel it's lower card material... But it makes the lower cards exciting, not boring, which is something I would rather see at least half of the time. I wouldn't have had him on that show, I would have just put him in FCW and seen what happened there.

 

Ah well, he didnt' show them THAT and now he's gone. Maybe TNA will see it and grab him? I don't know. Good luck to him though.

 

I hope TNA doesn't decide to sign him but instead ROH brings him in! He would do better there.