The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[crownsy]

So Tough Enough was scripted? Andy was under a develpment deal before the show

 

 

I doubt it was scripted in the sense that they picked a winner before the show, but a bunch of those talents had or have been given deals since the show ended.

 

I mean, Think about it, are you going to NOT sign anyone in the top 6ish to a developmental deal if your the WWE? that would be horrable buisness.

 

you just put these kids on a national show drawing what, 3 million viewers a week? and you just going to turn a kid you gave that kind of free publicity to loose to go work for TNA/ the indys to make a buck off your work?

 

Luke, for instance, is more well known than most of TNA's mid card. your not turning that guy loose for free.

 

of course not, your going to give them a developmental deal to see if you can turn them into a WWE talent as well. Im quite sure Luke has a deal, and i know martin, Jeremiah and alica fox's sister got one. Heck she's already wrestling in FCW

[Linsolv]

I don't mind Cole. I'm a little bored by him. However, when I go looking for wrestling opinions online and I find a smark declaring that Cole went too far in mocking King's mother, then that's called heel heat and the only reason that smark hated it is because they can't see the forest for the trees.

 

When NXT season 1 started, I wished that Cole would go away. I wished Lawler would go away. I like Booker T on commentary, but otherwise I hated their commentary team then and I hate it now. Except that now, when Cole stands up and says "Ladies and gentlemen, can I have your attention please: I've just received an email from the RAW general manager," the audience gets SUPER PISSED. That's called heat and it's good. There's a whole world out there beyond the tip of your nose, and beyond your preferences.

 

I hate flippy wrestling. I hate PWG, CHIKARA, EVOLVE, and Sin Cara. Give me IWA Mid-South any day of the week. But PWG has a big fan base out there, so I don't go around declaring it's worthless; I just don't buy their DVDs. So you don't like Cole. Well, he's gets more boos than Punk, or Sheamus, or Rhodes or Ziggler.

 

He's sitting on heat on par with The Miz, maybe Alberto del Rio—I really can't remember the reactions del Rio gets because I like him. He's got literally no heat with me. If he turned face right now I'd only be displeased because they'd give him a Mexican Cena persona. That's the difference between del Rio and Cole: one I like, and the other I hate. Spoiler warning: One of them isn't doing their job as a heel.

[Self]

I don't think Tough Enough was 'scripted' as in completely predetermined, but I hear Andy & Christiana were already on the FCW roster and were sent to the show by WWE with the intention of winning it. Similarly, Rima was the TV production company's hope to win.

 

Just because you're a smark and aren't overwhelmed by his good looks and cool persona doesn't mean the problem lies with him. It lies with you and the online wrestling fan's attitude towards heels. How people can call him a bad heel and then love someone like Zach Ryder is beyond me. I have no problem with Ryder but he gets little reaction as a heel on tv and is beloved by the fans on his youtube channel.

 

I love Zack Ryder, but I strongly believe he should be a wacky comedy babyface... Like Santino could have been if WWE hadn't turned his comedy so insipid and twee.

[Hashasheen]

Snip

 

While that's all well and good, there's something else that matter when discussing Cole's heel status: It goes nowhere. Who benefits? What babyface is going to look good beating up a non-competitor? Lawler, Hart, the Divas & Austin get away with it because let's face it, none of them are taken seriously by the fans as anything more than side-acts.

 

Look at the Miz. Heel heat, and he's using it to get over his former protege Alex Riley. Wade Barrett, getting over Ezekiel Jackson. Cody Rhodes getting over Daniel Bryan (hopefully).

 

Add to that the fact that Cole just plain ****s all over the product he's supposed to be commentating on (Bryan, the Divas, anyone not named the Miz). I actually liked him back on Smackdown with JBL & Tazz. Now? Now he's just a massive heel with nowhere to go, who's actual commentating is decreasing in quality.

[Fantabulous]

When did 'smark' become the catch-all term for insulting someone who thinks differently to you?

[Hashasheen]

When did 'smark' become the catch-all term for insulting someone who thinks differently to you?

 

The IWC is like the polar opposite of the Borg. A fractured, dissident, dis-unified and self-loathing mass of existence.

[Linsolv]

When did 'smark' become the catch-all term for insulting someone who thinks differently to you?

 

Smark is simply a term I used to describe someone who discusses the theory of wrestling, especially outside of the context of wrestling-as-business. If someone's sitting there telling me about X-Pac heat, or talking about how good a match was, they're probably a smark. It's not the only indicator, of course. Like I said, I often disagree with the general population I've seen around the IWC on what "good" wrestling is.

 

IWC seems to like a lot of PWG, Dragon Gate, etc. I like OVW, King's Road, and sometimes even WWE style. But I am perfectly willing to admit that Big Show is, realistically, a big draw. So's Rey Mysterio. But I don't like them. I don't like their look. I don't like their wrestling. Does that make me a smark? Yeah. I'm making judgements based on the product, not on the business.

 

So I wasn't using Smark as a term for "person who disagrees with me," I was using it as a term for "person who should be able to put themselves above the emotional roller-coaster the show is trying to present."

 

So, for me, as a SMARK, when Cole came out and gave his "interview" where he asked how it was looking up into heaven and knowing he'd let his mother down, I felt bad but I recognized it as an action designed to get my goat, and my goat was not gotten as a result.

 

While that's all well and good, there's something else that matter when discussing Cole's heel status: It goes nowhere. Who benefits? What babyface is going to look good beating up a non-competitor? Lawler, Hart, the Divas & Austin get away with it because let's face it, none of them are taken seriously by the fans as anything more than side-acts.

 

Aye... now there's the rub. However, I can't blame Cole for doing his job. If Jack Swagger can't get over as a heel, can Michael Cole be blamed for that? I mean, I guess in theory DB not getting over, Cole can be blamed for, because he's burying Bryan on commentary. But Cole doesn't sit there insulting Swagger.

[Hashasheen]

Aye... now there's the rub. However, I can't blame Cole for doing his job. If Jack Swagger can't get over as a heel, can Michael Cole be blamed for that? I mean, I guess in theory DB not getting over, Cole can be blamed for, because he's burying Bryan on commentary. But Cole doesn't sit there insulting Swagger.

 

.... Didn't Swagger get buried because he was getting too big a head during his title run?

[Linsolv]

I could only think of two upper-midcarders who I felt had hit the ceiling in a sense: Ziggler and Swagger. And Ziggler seemed to be on an upswing. (Not that there aren't more, but I just didn't want to open my list because I was lazy at the time and am lazy now)

[Gabbo]

When did 'smark' become the catch-all term for insulting someone who thinks differently to you?

 

We're all smarks on this forum. Whether you interpret that negatively or not. No-one here is a mark in the truest sense of the word.

 

While that's all well and good, there's something else that matter when discussing Cole's heel status: It goes nowhere. Who benefits?

 

If you want to be clever about it then this is supposedly why Vince phased out managers in the first place because the heat was on them and when a wrestler left his manager he went back to being nothing.

 

In theory, we, or the marks, benefit. Too many people are preoccupied with the next big star, the next big feud, who should be main eventing, what feuds should happen. Even when these guys reach the peak people are searching for the next person to get there and no-one seems to appreciate things happening just for the now. Everything doesn't have to be geared towards putting someone over and someone else getting a rub at all times. It's all about interesting TV, which is something people often slate the WWE for lacking right now.

 

Even if that is the case who's to say Cole won't get bigger and bigger and more relevant in the title picture in some way or just use his massive heat to put someone over further down the line?

 

Add to that the fact that Cole just plain ****s all over the product he's supposed to be commentating on (Bryan, the Divas, anyone not named the Miz). I actually liked him back on Smackdown with JBL & Tazz. Now? Now he's just a massive heel with nowhere to go, who's actual commentating is decreasing in quality.

 

Why is that different to Heenan or Lawler ****ting over all the faces during their run as heel commentator? Faces are supposed to be what you build the company on and all Heenan and Lawler did was go on about how stupid and weak and cowardly and whatnot they were. Plus, his ****ting on of Daniel Bryan is arguably what got him over.

[Hashasheen]

Why is that different to Heenan or Lawler ****ting over all the faces during their run as heel commentator? Faces are supposed to be what you build the company on and all Heenan and Lawler did was go on about how stupid and weak and cowardly and whatnot they were. Plus, his ****ting on of Daniel Bryan is arguably what got him over.

 

Heenan didn't and Lawler didn't do it like Cole did. Case in point was Cornette's arrival to the WWF, he got massive heel heat just because of how well Heenan was praising him and then built himself without Heenan's heat. He got the same amount of pop for guys his clients opposed, who then built on it. As for Lawler, he always had Jim Ross as a counter-part propping up the faces and pointing out why Lawler sucked (in Kayfabe). We don't have that now. Vince seems content to let Cole run his mouth on most wrestlers except the top guys like Orton and Cena, and none of the other guys (except maybe Striker) have the natural ease at going back and forth over it.

 

Not to mention you know, none of them tell a story or sell the moves as well as they used to.

[MrOnu]

And you'd have pages and pages of raging discussions on the internet about the dumbness of a face Michael Cole now that he's been so over the top as heel. Wrestling fans are never happy on the internet, that's my rule #1.

[ShaunGBD]

Wrestling fans are never happy on the internet, that's my rule #1.

 

I will take it one step farther, MOST hardcore wrestling fans are NEVER happy.

[Candyman]

So Tough Enough was scripted? Andy was under a develpment deal before the show

 

So was Christina, and I'm sure everybody on the show was a candidate for a development deal and would have gotten deals if not for the show. You heard the crowd, Andy got by far the biggest reaction of all the contestants. (only one close was Jeremiah, and everybody saw how dangerously green he was) It really makes no sense for them to rig it...the best contestant on the show is going to be the most successful regardless of whether or not they win, so why not let the best win, so the winner is the most successful? It's like people who claim American Idol is rigged...it makes no sense.

 

I doubt it was scripted in the sense that they picked a winner before the show, but a bunch of those talents had or have been given deals since the show ended.

 

I mean, Think about it, are you going to NOT sign anyone in the top 6ish to a developmental deal if your the WWE? that would be horrable buisness.

 

you just put these kids on a national show drawing what, 3 million viewers a week? and you just going to turn a kid you gave that kind of free publicity to loose to go work for TNA/ the indys to make a buck off your work?

 

Luke, for instance, is more well known than most of TNA's mid card. your not turning that guy loose for free.

 

of course not, your going to give them a developmental deal to see if you can turn them into a WWE talent as well. Im quite sure Luke has a deal, and i know martin, Jeremiah and alica fox's sister got one. Heck she's already wrestling in FCW

 

If I had to put money on whether or not each contestant would get signed to a development deal, Michael is the ONLY one I would bet on not getting signed eventually. I expect the other 13 to be in FCW, if they're not already, and it wouldn't really surprise me if Michael was too. They put them on the show because they saw something in them, and I don't think a couple weeks in the Tough Enough house would convince them they were wrong.

[Gabbo]

Heenan didn't and Lawler didn't do it like Cole did. Case in point was Cornette's arrival to the WWF, he got massive heel heat just because of how well Heenan was praising him and then built himself without Heenan's heat. He got the same amount of pop for guys his clients opposed, who then built on it. As for Lawler, he always had Jim Ross as a counter-part propping up the faces and pointing out why Lawler sucked (in Kayfabe). We don't have that now. Vince seems content to let Cole run his mouth on most wrestlers except the top guys like Orton and Cena, and none of the other guys (except maybe Striker) have the natural ease at going back and forth over it.

 

Not to mention you know, none of them tell a story or sell the moves as well as they used to.

 

 

I was pointing out faces, heel commentators praising heels is nothing new and is really just what Cole does anyway. As they all attack faces alongside it.

 

The second two points about Lawler having a face counterpart and wrestlers not being able to tell a story are again not Cole's fault in anyway.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Too many people are preoccupied with the next big star, the next big feud, who should be main eventing, what feuds should happen. Even when these guys reach the peak people are searching for the next person to get there and no-one seems to appreciate things happening just for the now. Everything doesn't have to be geared towards putting someone over and someone else getting a rub at all times. It's all about interesting TV, which is something people often slate the WWE for lacking right now.

 

Even if that is the case who's to say Cole won't get bigger and bigger and more relevant in the title picture in some way or just use his massive heat to put someone over further down the line?

 

That's a point I can agree on with. Everything can have an use at a certain degree. Such as during that Rock birthday party special, Rock did his thing, entertaining the crowd with his mic skills.. then they had to get someone to spar with him so they could kick off on a good note - couldn't be a wrestler so that people wouldn't endlessly speculate further, Cole was the perfect guinea pig.

 

Alex Riley's face turn, the generic way of going at it would be Miz ranting at how he's done everything for A-Ri, but that'd be too straightforward, that's where Cole comes in.

 

A lot of smarks tend to believe what they find annoying is by all means wrong, and those lines need to be separated a bit. Granted I did want to see Cole out of my TV but if it came down to himself, I'd say he's doing a splendid job with what he's given. Redeeming himself for all those years of chuffy commentating, he got the idea of putting it all out in the open.

[Fantabulous]

The difference with Michael Cole going full blown heel and a heel colour guy like Lawler or Heenan is that Cole is the lead announcer. He is the voice of the promotion, meant to get the wrestlers and issues over with the audience. He is meant to tell the stories that get people into the product, so they'll want to either keep watching or buy the PPV. And that's a little difficult to do when you're burying every babyface and acting in such an obnoxious manner that you're actually turning people off.

[Linsolv]

Once again, I'd agree that's a problem but it's not COLE's problem. He's dull and ineffective as a face, he shouldn't be the lead commentator. He's highly effective as a heel.

[jjohns44]

I was only quoting Vince from the episode. I thought it was pretty funny.

 

I've been seeing A LOT of commercials on other channels promoting RAW and the Celebrity Host schtick, but they really haven't done the host thing in a long time. Not that I really miss it or anything, eventually it got to a point where the host made a small backstage cameo and that was it, just weird to see it promoting the celebrity host thing when it doesn't really happen anymore.

[djthefunkchris]

Going to side with Gabbo and TBP on the Cole issue (and everyone else making valid points). Cole isn't a problem, he's and asset right now. He makes you like anyone he doesn't, or at least someone will like who he doesn't simply because he doesn't like them.

 

I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again. Many will dissagree because they can't give Cole any credit for anything, but: To me, Cole is being Attitude Era McMahan. He isn't going to do all the physical parts that McMahan did, but he definately has the whole Power thing down.

 

I haven't been able to watch in a couple of episodes though, and haven't google'd or anything lately. The last time I seen Cole, he was no longer in that "Safety Rig" behind glass or whatever. He was sitting there along with Lawler and halfway agreeing with Lawler on a few things. Some of which had to do with The Miz.

 

Anyways, Cole helped The Miz out like no other in my opinion. Miz could have got there without it, but I think Cole made it happen faster then it should have.

 

I'd absolutely love to see Cole get halfway decent in the ring, and actually do some physical parts on his own as well... but I don't see him doing anything more then Jimmy Hart in the ring. Just not worth it at his age, I don't think.

 

Anyways, yeah... I never really liked Cole and I still feel that way. However, I can't ignore the crowd reaction everytime he does or says anything. Same way I felt about Vickie Guerrero. That's not the wrong kind of heat either, it is the absolute BEST type of heat a heel can have.

 

What can he do with it? As I said, bassically anyone he likes he can transfer heat to, and anyone he doesn't he can transfer cheers to. Anyone that takes a stand against him is going to be cheered, as long as they don't overdue it.... Meaning, if someone like Zack Ryder (Loose example of someone I don't understand why anyone thinks should be a star) were to start talking back at Cole, they could at the very least bump them up temporarily, into an Upper Midcard position, possibly even higher. Have Cole get one of the guys thought of to be Main Event material or Upper Mid to go after Zack, and people are going to cheer for Zack, and want Zack to win. IF someone like Zack could actually grab onto this effect, it could do wonder's for their carreer.

[BurningHamster]

Why is that different to Heenan or Lawler ****ting over all the faces during their run as heel commentator? Faces are supposed to be what you build the company on and all Heenan and Lawler did was go on about how stupid and weak and cowardly and whatnot they were. Plus, his ****ting on of Daniel Bryan is arguably what got him over.

 

Heenan and Lawler had talent and wit. If anyone tries to tell me Cole has the same then I just plain give up, there ain't no hope for you people.

[juggaloninjalee]

Going to side with Gabbo and TBP on the Cole issue (and everyone else making valid points). Cole isn't a problem, he's and asset right now. He makes you like anyone he doesn't, or at least someone will like who he doesn't simply because he doesn't like them.

 

I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again. Many will dissagree because they can't give Cole any credit for anything, but: To me, Cole is being Attitude Era McMahan. He isn't going to do all the physical parts that McMahan did, but he definately has the whole Power thing down.

 

I haven't been able to watch in a couple of episodes though, and haven't google'd or anything lately. The last time I seen Cole, he was no longer in that "Safety Rig" behind glass or whatever. He was sitting there along with Lawler and halfway agreeing with Lawler on a few things. Some of which had to do with The Miz.

 

Anyways, Cole helped The Miz out like no other in my opinion. Miz could have got there without it, but I think Cole made it happen faster then it should have.

 

I'd absolutely love to see Cole get halfway decent in the ring, and actually do some physical parts on his own as well... but I don't see him doing anything more then Jimmy Hart in the ring. Just not worth it at his age, I don't think.

 

Anyways, yeah... I never really liked Cole and I still feel that way. However, I can't ignore the crowd reaction everytime he does or says anything. Same way I felt about Vickie Guerrero. That's not the wrong kind of heat either, it is the absolute BEST type of heat a heel can have.

 

What can he do with it? As I said, bassically anyone he likes he can transfer heat to, and anyone he doesn't he can transfer cheers to. Anyone that takes a stand against him is going to be cheered, as long as they don't overdue it.... Meaning, if someone like Zack Ryder (Loose example of someone I don't understand why anyone thinks should be a star) were to start talking back at Cole, they could at the very least bump them up temporarily, into an Upper Midcard position, possibly even higher. Have Cole get one of the guys thought of to be Main Event material or Upper Mid to go after Zack, and people are going to cheer for Zack, and want Zack to win. IF someone like Zack could actually grab onto this effect, it could do wonder's for their carreer.

 

I agree with you here. Part of what slingshot Austins career was the fact that Vince was an ******* and Austin did what everyone wanted... he beat the hell out of him.

 

Not saying that someone who does this will be as big as Austin or even close to it but they will get some recognition.

 

I don't think Cole is on the same level as McMahon though in the 90s either. Vickie Guerrero is a good heel manager right now too.

[Fantabulous]

Heenan and Lawler had talent and wit. If anyone tries to tell me Cole has the same then I just plain give up, there ain't no hope for you people.

 

And, as heels, they exaggerated greatly or outright lied. They made it impossible for you take anything they said seriously because of it. Cole, meanwhile, goes right for the jugular and exposes every flaw and weakness that the babyface has. Whoever the babyface in the ring is, Cole hammers home every weakness, every flaw and everything else that could be wrong with them. He completely undermines their credibility because everything he's saying is true and there's no way to discount it. That's not what a good heel does. A good heel doesn't cut the legs off the babyface they're going against because if they win, it means nothing because they beat a nobody, and if they lose, they look bad because they lost to a nobody and it results in nobody getting over.

 

It's also bad when it's coming from they guy who is meant sell the viewers at home on the babyfaces so they can get behind them and tune in to see them on TV or pay to see them on PPV or at the house shows. Who pays to see a babyface who has had every flaw and weakness not only exposed before them but drilled home for two hours by the lead announcer? It's stupid.

 

Also, the Cole = McMahon analogy is laughable because it's a completely different dynamic. What made it resonate with people was not simply the heel McMahon screwing around Austin and Austin fighting back. It was the ******* boss, something just about everybody watching can relate to, acting like an ******* toward his employee and the employee doing what everyone else wishes they could do in real life and turning around and beating the hell out of his boss. The obnoxious lead announcer being a dick for two hours isn't close to the same thing. Nobody relates to that and it has a short shelf life even when done right before coming long in the tooth. Not that it should be done at all for the previously mentioned reasons, but that too is a point that will probably go over a lot of heads.

[Prophet]

I think the biggest problem with heel Cole now is, there's no reason for it. Heenan, King, McMahon, Heyman, Cornette ... they all had agendas, and until Cole has an outright reason, it lacks sense. This is what I mean.

 

Heenan and Cornette were both managers who either had current clients, or option to scout new clients. Heenan would tear into Hogan, because he had reason to, Hogan had the belt, Hogan would duck the Family, it made sense.

 

When Heyman was heel color guy, he was aligned with the Invasion, he was self aggrandizing ECW, he was justified in tearing down the faces of WWF/E. And McMahon was trying to mold the company into what he felt it should look like. Which turned Austin and others (including the dreaded Union) into protagonists. Still, clear cut agenda.

 

As for King, when he began commentating, he was still active. He feuded with Bret Hart, he outwitted people in Rumble matches by hiding under the ring. He made the most sense to be heelish as a commentator. This also holds true during Perfect's run. All of them have reason.

 

Cole doesn't have that reason. He's heel because he's friends with the Miz? He's friends with Cena too, something they touched on during the heel run of Michael Cole, which was forgotten the next week. Which brings me to another point. Cole is wildly inconsistent. One week, he's horrified by a beating that took place in the ring, and the next week, the victim deserved worse. One week, Miz went too far when scolding Alex Riley, and it was good for A-Ri to stand up for himself, the next week, Cole's demanding an apology from Riley. It almost seems like he loses perspective of which role he's supposed to play.

 

My point is, until they lay out a clear reason for Cole to act like an obnoxious jerk, some self interest that ties it all together, it will always come off as the loudest kid in the class trying to shout down the teacher for no other reason than he has a mic in his hand.

[juggaloninjalee]

And, as heels, they exaggerated greatly or outright lied. They made it impossible for you take anything they said seriously because of it. Cole, meanwhile, goes right for the jugular and exposes every flaw and weakness that the babyface has. Whoever the babyface in the ring is, Cole hammers home every weakness, every flaw and everything else that could be wrong with them. He completely undermines their credibility because everything he's saying is true and there's no way to discount it. That's not what a good heel does. A good heel doesn't cut the legs off the babyface they're going against because if they win, it means nothing because they beat a nobody, and if they lose, they look bad because they lost to a nobody and it results in nobody getting over.

 

It's also bad when it's coming from they guy who is meant sell the viewers at home on the babyfaces so they can get behind them and tune in to see them on TV or pay to see them on PPV or at the house shows. Who pays to see a babyface who has had every flaw and weakness not only exposed before them but drilled home for two hours by the lead announcer? It's stupid.

 

Also, the Cole = McMahon analogy is laughable because it's a completely different dynamic. What made it resonate with people was not simply the heel McMahon screwing around Austin and Austin fighting back. It was the ******* boss, something just about everybody watching can relate to, acting like an ******* toward his employee and the employee doing what everyone else wishes they could do in real life and turning around and beating the hell out of his boss. The obnoxious lead announcer being a dick for two hours isn't close to the same thing. Nobody relates to that and it has a short shelf life even when done right before coming long in the tooth. Not that it should be done at all for the previously mentioned reasons, but that too is a point that will probably go over a lot of heads.

 

I don't hate Cole as much as most but I do hate it when he kills all credibility a face has. I do think he gets a reaction and that he is only doing what Vince wants him to do. Personally I would change his gimmick slightly and probably just make him a manager.

 

To me Cole isn't Bobby Heenan or JR or any of those but he is unique and does get reactions. That is what WWE wants and has always wanted.

 

I can relate to Cole being an employee that annoys everyone and tries to point out everyones flaw and discredit them to the world. Haven't any of you worked with someone who bad mouths everyones work except for their own and their friends? Thats how I relate Cole to real life.