The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[lazorbeak]

@drew all perfectly logical points, but thats not the way the FACES are presenting it in the storyline. On monday, your top Face (cena) and a UMC face (miz) implied she likes to sleep around (or "hook up" i guess). Miz did it explicitly, Cena did the strong-hint via inuendo+ smirk thing his character does when being oh so clever.

 

I understand she is now a heel, so faces are going to have to run her down my point is you can FEEL vince all over that storyline. and given Vince's historical treatment of women inside and outside the business, It's just uncomfortable to watch.

 

Maybe next week he can have nataliya come out and fart in her face after she Frenches dolph. That would bring two of Vince's favorite things together.

 

Yeah this AJ angle is really uncomfortable. I love that WWE will talk about anti-bullying and then have your babyfaces sitting there making corny jokes about what a **** AJ is. Or how about the angle a few weeks ago where Hornswoggle flirts with Rosa, then humiliates her, and the explanation is basically "lol you're gross what man would ever be genuinely interested in you?"

 

Also, re: the ADR thing, I really hope WWE changes nothing about him. They do this all the time where they get a heel over based on their mean streak and their over-the-top gimmick and then they turn babyface and suddenly they're high-fiving everyone, teaming up with Kofi Kingston, and not doing any of the stuff that got their character over in the first place. I mean I love when a performer stays true to their existing character even as they catch on with the fans, whether it's The Rock being a supremely cocky jerk, Austin being a super-intense loner who'd stun his own tag team partner after a match, or Eddie Guerrero doing the "cheat to win" gimmick so well the crowd loves it. None of them would ever do the pandering "high five everyone on the way to the ring for a tag match with Kofi" BS.

 

I only pick on Kofi because he's incredibly bland and has been the same basic character for 5 years (with a hiccup where he looked like he might develop a character 3 years ago).

[justtxyank]

Yeah this AJ angle is really uncomfortable. I love that WWE will talk about anti-bullying and then have your babyfaces sitting there making corny jokes about what a **** AJ is. Or how about the angle a few weeks ago where Hornswoggle flirts with Rosa, then humiliates her, and the explanation is basically "lol you're gross what man would ever be genuinely interested in you?"

 

Also, re: the ADR thing, I really hope WWE changes nothing about him. They do this all the time where they get a heel over based on their mean streak and their over-the-top gimmick and then they turn babyface and suddenly they're high-fiving everyone, teaming up with Kofi Kingston, and not doing any of the stuff that got their character over in the first place. I mean I love when a performer stays true to their existing character even as they catch on with the fans, whether it's The Rock being a supremely cocky jerk, Austin being a super-intense loner who'd stun his own tag team partner after a match, or Eddie Guerrero doing the "cheat to win" gimmick so well the crowd loves it. None of them would ever do the pandering "high five everyone on the way to the ring for a tag match with Kofi" BS.

 

I only pick on Kofi because he's incredibly bland and has been the same basic character for 5 years (with a hiccup where he looked like he might develop a character 3 years ago).

 

This is exactly what Vince has always done though with a few exceptions. Diesel got over by being a cool, tough badarse. He goes face and gets the belt and suddenly he is smiling and high fiving the fans, getting sparkle light entrances, having a fan club, etc. People wonder why his title reign wasn't that great. If the character he became in 1996 in the WWF and ultimately WCW had been the one who held the strap for 1995 it would have been much much better.

[bigtplaystew]

I don't understand why Vince is getting all this heat from you guys for having to do overt face turns. Wrestling fans are kinda stupid (nowadays especially) and they generally have to be told who to cheer for and boo in most cases. It's not Vince's fault we're stupid.

 

Also, I think the Miz's face turn was at least SOMEWHAT more subtle than some are giving him credit for. He teamed with Kofi and John Cena, sure, but there's been an air of reluctance going into the matches. They celebrated afterwards, but it makes sense because the heels pissed them off enough to find a common ground for one whole match. It's not like he's kissing babies. He's still an obnoxious ass on the mic, he just antagonizes heels now instead of faces. And Del Rio isn't "bro"ing down with the faces either really yet unless I missed something. He's just kinda cool with Ricardo. Again, both guys were not the Stone Cold and Diesel types that were so cool the fans liked them anyway. They were bad guys doing bad things right up until the moment they were good guys doing good things.

 

There have been examples in the last 3 years or so of badass heels being cool and getting more subtle face turns. Punk's turn after the "pipe bomb". Orton (again never really acted differently and pandered to fans, just started doing the same crap he always did just against heels---although he did stop RKOing gusy girlfriends and stuff like that haha), and Daniel Bryan and to a lesser degree Kane when they became tag team champions. It's not like those days are gone forever.

[panix04]

honestly right now i don't know if i can recommend that course of action haha, right now it feels like monday night's are a train wreck I can't look away from, with occasional moments of great work (mostly The shield, Punk, and some of the mid card tag teams, and Hell no v. Rhodes Scholars.)

 

You missed Dolph Ziggler off that list - the dude is immensely talented! Holiday shows apart i'm really liking Raw at the moment, it's nice to see them putting so much faith in the NXT guys and think it will start to pay dividends in the future.

 

There's a big gap between TLC and the Rumble so WWE are always going to take the easy way out with filler shows (Slammies, Xmas, New Year).

 

Just watched the Main Event highlights. Looks like Cesaro and Barrett are getting big pushes early 2013 and they both deserve it. Miz and Kofi are also pretty interesting right now.

 

Amen. Although Cesaro could use a bit of work on his entertainment skills he is an absolute powerhouse. The commentary team are doing a good job of making both these guys seem legit.

 

I'd prefer Del Rio as a tweener like in the Xmas Raw, trying to be good but making mistakes and flying off the handle. Ricardo's enziguri kick before being swatted by Big Show was awesome!

 

I agree that R-rod's little flurry was cool (He could out-wrestle khali handcuffed!) but it made little sense. A few weeks ago we had Maddox (who supposedly will be a fully fledged wrestler) get in no offense against Show and here is this tubby ring announcer showing him how it's done? Just struck me as a bit un-even. Mind you I felt the same way when watching smackdown this week. Watching the 6-man tag match (which JBL, legend that he is, rightfully pointed out was dire) Primo and Epico were selling hornswoggle's moves like the guy was the Undertaker. I'm not saying they wouldn't hurt, i'm just saying don't take the mick.

 

@drew all perfectly logical points, but thats not the way the FACES are presenting it in the storyline. On monday, your top Face (cena) and a UMC face (miz) implied she likes to sleep around (or "hook up" i guess). Miz did it explicitly, Cena did the strong-hint via inuendo+ smirk thing his character does when being oh so clever.

 

I understand she is now a heel, so faces are going to have to run her down my point is you can FEEL vince all over that storyline. and given Vince's historical treatment of women inside and outside the business, It's just uncomfortable to watch.

 

Maybe next week he can have nataliya come out and fart in her face after she Frenches dolph. That would bring two of Vince's favorite things together.

 

If you believe Kurt Angle then the AJ story has TNA written all over it

 

Yeah this AJ angle is really uncomfortable. I love that WWE will talk about anti-bullying and then have your babyfaces sitting there making corny jokes about what a **** AJ is. Or how about the angle a few weeks ago where Hornswoggle flirts with Rosa, then humiliates her, and the explanation is basically "lol you're gross what man would ever be genuinely interested in you?"

 

Also, re: the ADR thing, I really hope WWE changes nothing about him. They do this all the time where they get a heel over based on their mean streak and their over-the-top gimmick and then they turn babyface and suddenly they're high-fiving everyone, teaming up with Kofi Kingston, and not doing any of the stuff that got their character over in the first place. I mean I love when a performer stays true to their existing character even as they catch on with the fans, whether it's The Rock being a supremely cocky jerk, Austin being a super-intense loner who'd stun his own tag team partner after a match, or Eddie Guerrero doing the "cheat to win" gimmick so well the crowd loves it. None of them would ever do the pandering "high five everyone on the way to the ring for a tag match with Kofi" BS.

 

I only pick on Kofi because he's incredibly bland and has been the same basic character for 5 years (with a hiccup where he looked like he might develop a character 3 years ago).

 

Couldn't agree more with this. Sheamus is a case in point everything he does seems so forced and unnatural. I cringe every time he gets on the mic, put him back to being a heel, he's much better in that role. Or if you need to keep him as a face have him be a character who loves beating up people and it just so happens that all his fights are against heels. There is a real lack of complexity in the WWE at the moment, bad guys only win by cheating, good guys always play fair, it was nice to see Cena after losing the Ladder match vs Ziggler acting like a sour loser on RAW, I think they should do this more often. Plants a seed for a possible heel turn. Would love to see Cena Vs. Ziggler with the heel/face alignment flipped. (the last event I went to I saw almost as many Ziggler tee shirts as Cena one's anyway)

[Teh_Showtime]

actually a LOT of heels have been winning without cheating

 

Wade Barrett, Cesaro, Rhodes and Sandow especially have won more matches clean than not recently. But of course main event faces wont lose clean and they aren't supposed to it's rare.

[panix04]

actually a LOT of heels have been winning without cheating

 

Wade Barrett, Cesaro, Rhodes and Sandow especially have won more matches clean than not recently. But of course main event faces wont lose clean and they aren't supposed to it's rare.

 

actually that's a valid point, especially in Cesaro's case. However I think that even main event face's should lose cleanly occasionally. Yeah bad guys will cheat, but some bad guys are bad just because they are mean (at least if they want to reflect real life)

[Teh_Showtime]

Sheamus has lost clean to Big Show multiple times the past few months

 

any more than that and it's just not going to seem as special

[panix04]

Sheamus has lost clean to Big Show multiple times the past few months

 

any more than that and it's just not going to seem as special

 

But should a bad guy winning fairly seem special? The big show is a massive giant, you don't need him to cheat/be a coward to be over as a heel. He just needs to act like a mean mofo and his stature does the rest. I honestly believe heels are misused at the moment. I read an interesting stat that the heel/face win/loss ratio for WWE pay-per-views this year was something like 70% in favor of faces. I think that's too high. Only 3 heels had a positive win/loss ratio on PPV's this year. To use an analogy, look at David and Goliath, would David's victory have meant anything if it was against a regular sized guy who wasn't very good at fighting? It would be far easier for people like John Cena to stay over (with anyone who has hit puberty) if the people he was fighting kicked butt a bit more often.

 

That's why I think Cena should have jobbed to Lesnar, Cena doesn't need wins to stay over with kids and most adults find his character tired. Making him vulnerable makes him a more sympathetic character, therefore his wins mean more. Plus it killed Lesnar's momentum, when he returned after 'mania he was red hot, everyone knows he will be at 'mania this year - but most people I have spoken to don't care.

 

I realise some might argue that having part-timers go over full timers is a bit controversial - but if you want guys like Lesnar to remain a big draw you have to keep them looking strong. Personally I think that using part timers because of their ability to make the company money is a little counter-productive as it is slightly reducing the ability to create the new breed of big stars. (part-timers are effectively taking the younger stars 'spots' on the card) Having said that I love me some Rocky!

[Teh_Showtime]

But should a bad guy winning fairly seem special?

 

now we are getting into basic (American) wrestling. It has been that way for YEARS. Ric Flair was the biggest coward ever, but he was the best heel ever.

 

and as for the PPV thing Cena's PPV record was below .500 in 2012 and he finished the year with 5 straight PPV losses after winning MITB. The Lesnar thing sure maybe he should have lost but in reality Lesnar didnt need to beat Cena to look like a threat for HHH.

[panix04]

now we are getting into basic (American) wrestling. It has been that way for YEARS. Ric Flair was the biggest coward ever, but he was the best heel ever.

 

and as for the PPV thing Cena's PPV record was below .500 in 2012 and he finished the year with 5 straight PPV losses after winning MITB. The Lesnar thing sure maybe he should have lost but in reality Lesnar didnt need to beat Cena to look like a threat for HHH.

 

Being as i'm only 30 and being from the UK I can safely say that Ric Flair is overrated! for me the best heel over the past couple of decades has been triple H. (controversial eh?) His ring work is virtually flawless and whilst he hasn't got the best rep. he has gotten over so many people. And yeah he cheated a bit, but his face and heel persona's were very similar, he got over just by being a jerk.

 

The thing with Cena is that he is always kept strong, he may have lost a few big matches this year, but he always had an excuse (apart from versus the rock, but then he was facing a babyface anyway) and that's why the IRC hate him so much. I'm not suggesting jobbing him out, just doing something different with him, perhaps a losing streak or a heel turn. He's had the same schtick for what seems like an eternity. He hasn't held a title all year, yet he has main evented most of the pay-per-views? That makes little sense to me.

[Teh_Showtime]

I dont disagree but it's not like this is new. He is hardly at Austin 1998 levels though

 

And this is totally random but Curt Hennig was amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pzbj9ps_zk. The technique was flawless as if he was doing the move to a 150 pound cruiserweight

 

Easily one of my favorites ever, his matches with Bret have a special place in my heart.

[panix04]

perfect-plex indeed!

[bigtplaystew]

I dont disagree but it's not like this is new. He is hardly at Austin 1998 levels though

 

And this is totally random but Curt Hennig was amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pzbj9ps_zk. The technique was flawless as if he was doing the move to a 150 pound cruiserweight

 

Easily one of my favorites ever, his matches with Bret have a special place in my heart.

 

This +infinity. Some of the best matches ever.

[Rone Rivendale]

I dont disagree but it's not like this is new. He is hardly at Austin 1998 levels though

 

And this is totally random but Curt Hennig was amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pzbj9ps_zk. The technique was flawless as if he was doing the move to a 150 pound cruiserweight

 

Easily one of my favorites ever, his matches with Bret have a special place in my heart.

 

I can not believe what I just saw!

[infinitywpi]

<p>You know, I was expecting a new champion, but I wasn't expecting -him-. That match with The Rock is going to be interesting, to say the least.</p><p> </p><p>

----------------------------------</p><p>

Posted from 12 hours in the future.</p><p>

(Hey, if I'm right, it'll look awesome)</p><p>

----------------------------------</p>

[Guest codey]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="infinitywpi" data-cite="infinitywpi" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You know, I was expecting a new champion, but I wasn't expecting -him-. That match with The Rock is going to be interesting, to say the least.<p> </p><p> ----------------------------------</p><p> Posted from 12 hours in the future.</p><p> (Hey, if I'm right, it'll look awesome)</p><p> ----------------------------------</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> As someone living in East Asia and only having read the first line, you had me worried!</p>

[infinitywpi]

Always glad to make someone's day a little more sur-real.

[Teh_Showtime]

<p>I dont want rock to win the title and would prefer Ryback honestly.</p><p> </p><p>

Why take an INCREDIBLE rub and give it to a guy who has wrestled once in 2011, and once in 2012?</p>

[Self]

Because he's a movie star, and him winning the title would be mainstream news.

[Teh_Showtime]

Nothing screams forward progress like having a guy who hasnt been active in a decade beat both of your top guys despite only having 2 matches since then.

[infinitywpi]

The Shield is gonna do a run-in and steal the belt during TLC.

 

And at Royal Rumble, we'll have the 'odd couple' team of Rock, Ryback, and Punk vs The Shield for custody of the title. The Shield retains when Rock, Punk, and Ryback all fail to work together. (This also gives a reason to keep Ryback out of the Rumble so he doesn't have to steamroller everyone or get eliminated.)

 

Which brings us to Elimination Chamber, which is made a title match so The Shield has a chance to legitimately walk out with the title. The Shield starts with an early numbers game, but Mason Ryan being the last man in means every SHIELD member gets eliminated and Punk walks out with the belt -- and, since he was never beaten for the title, he gets to add another 60 or so days onto his title reign.

 

Which takes us to Punk/Rock at Mania.

 

...

 

At least, that's how I'd book it.

[Teh_Showtime]

annnnd Punk just crucified Rocky

 

you probably shouldn't be making ass jokes when mentioning the biggest prize in the industry, not to mention that he's damn near 40

[Astil]

Rock was so bad on that promo and Punk so good that Punk may start getting face pops.

 

People complain about Cena, but at least Cena can cut a serious promo.

[Tha Black Phenom]

at this point, you guys should've come to expect this from rocky. This hasn't been his first rodeo since he returned.

 

To me both delivered because Punk did great with what he's best at, and The Rock did great with what he's best at. One's best at the sticking it to the man approach and his matter-of-factly delivery. The other's best at catchphrases, the standup wisecrack jokes and name-calling that he's dished out for years but the delivery moreso and crowd control. Is it really about who did the better promo?

 

I can understand if it's about what resonates better with you, what you enjoy more. Rock's jokes don't cater to you guys as much anymore as Punk's pipebombs and sous-entendres and what have you. And hell I'd still say Punk would get the edge because he called it. But in no way was his promo bad.

 

 

He shouldn't be making ass jokes when? I think that memo should've been directed at about 14 years ago.

[milamber]

Cena vs Ziggler - Wish Ziggler had won but Cena at least had to kick out half a dozen times before hitting the AA.

 

3MB were surprisingly entertaining jobbing to Sheamus and Orton.

 

Can we please have Barrett vs Steamboat for the IC title next week?

 

Hell No vs Rhodes Scholars - They're getting good mileage out of this feud.

 

Cesaro vs Khali - You have to be a damn good wrestler to get a watchable match out of Kahli. Corkscrew uppercut and Gotch Neutralizer were sick.

 

Punk vs Ryback - Great match. Not quite The Shield at TLC quality but damn good even with the predictably screwy finish. Finally a good pipebomb from Punk, not the cookie-cutter G-rated crap he was saddled with last year. And the Great One was awesome, doing what he does best. I really don't mind if he beats Punk at RR. It would get a better response than Ryback or Cena winning the belt and Punk has to drop the belt sometime soon. Plus it makes sense to have a short term reign after one so long.