The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[milamber]

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[djthefunkchris]

@Ghoul, I'm going to reply to your post, but just want to say I hope that you get to feeling better before I go into it.

 

I love good debates, and you covered a couple of things I thought about myself, but I wanted to point out some things in your post, and perhaps get some more thoughts from you (and others).

 

im sorry, but i do have to disagree very strongly here. people do want to cheer, people want to see guys get over but they dont want the same old shit the wwe is throwing at them all the time.

Honestly, you have a point here, but I don't think (and he can add to it if I'm wrong here) that bigtplaystew's comments were supposed to be held by themselves in that post. IMO, what he is talking about is that not only do WWE (or TNA for that matter) have casual wrestling fans in attendance, but they also have the IWC around, and it appears that more times then not, they have different likes, so it's not as easy to get "everyone" on board.

 

I do think he also was talking about the hard times most people have right now, because of the economy, and I think it's somewhat a feeling of "Hey, I paid good money to see this, PLEASE give me something that's worth it!"

 

I have to agree with you though, as history would suggest, times of burden is when people have a desire to cheer, have fun, party, etc.. So I'm kind of torn here. I just don't think things are quite a bit more critical these days, because of modernized internet, and such things.

a wwe babyface is mostly a boring copy of cena to a point and, when high enough up the card, is just curbstomping almost all the heels. and speaking of heels a typical wwe heel that is not a monster, is a coward who cant win a single match without help or cheating. it just gets boring.

I can get behind the boring part of being a babyface/carbon copy Cena so to speak, at least I get your point here. I can certainly understand why they have Cena like that, but I was really hoping Del Rio's character wouldn't have changed as much as it has when he turned face. To me, right now, the most interesting face is/was Big Show, but he's already showed signs of falling right into that same trap... Would love him to stay the "Mean" type Giant, that don't take any crap, not even from people on his side, but it's already changing tides there. SO yeah, I certainly see your point there, and I have to agree for the most part (Mainly looking at Sheamus, Del Rio, etc). The only one that is still kind of interesting is Miz, but he makes a horrid face for me...

 

The "Typical WWE Heel that's not a monster" comment. Historically, that is a heel. A heel cheats, does underhanded things to win. A face never does these things to win. That's just 100 years of pro-wrestling... it's not going to change for the most part. Heels are going to be opportunistic to win, and thats the only way they can win, because the face can easily beat them if they fight fair. That's just the way you do things in the wrestling bussiness.

 

However, there have been plenty of "Heel" wins that weren't that bad. Jack Swagger for one (he's not really a monster... and they play to his technical skills moreso then his size). Normally though, especially with smaller guys, they are going to have to cheat to win.

 

on the other hand, there was punk and he was cheered to no end and even booed in some places when is ascent startet back in 2011, anyway he could get a hall go mad and the story with him and cena was eaten up by the fans. what big storys you have today? it feels like there is nothing there, just stuff thrown together and retconed if vince feels like it (and yes back then for a short moment i actually though of go back watch raw again, because of this "new" awsome guy, luckily i didnt).

Everyone was into Punk, and still is to an extent. There isn't any "Big Stories" because the guys headlining Wrestlemania just have to show up to sell tickets, no story necessary.... plus, as you say, most of the big draws are part time and there is no way to build big stories from part time players, at least I haven't seen it done very well yet.

also about the star thing, it is my opinion, and i have this notion for some time now, that a lot of the 2000 wwe stars could go without rubbing of their popularity onto younger stars, hbk, edge(sadly), hhh(who only comes out to work with well established guys who also only come out once or twice a year), undertaker(hasnt brought anyone over in aeons and only works a match a year), batista(dont remember how he did go but i dont remember him pushing a younger guy on his way out) and so on. you only have like 2 big stars who are there full time and that is cena and punk, and cena had everyone and eaten them alive. so a lot of the younger/newer guys now cant get rubs from well established guys like the ones above, but have to somehow create it themselfs if their are lucky and also are gifted with a story that is interesting.

This is the part I found interesting. I immediately thought of WCW picking off all the top WWE guys, and WWE having to use what they had to build up their own stars.... Austin/Rock, etc. The obvious difference is that they are all in the same company, but yeah... It's like all the other guys are left to fend for themselves here. Interesting thoughts there. I don't know if it's a bad thing or not, if it works out... but lately I can see it just as you explained it. The very top guys, most of whom are part time, are completely seperated (at least right now) from the rest of the roster.

sorry if this reads a bit inept, im not very healthy right now so i probally dont have all my wits together.

As I said in the beginning, I hope you get to feeling better.

[Stennick]

I think they tried to steer away from the Cena carbon copy with Orton's viper gimmick but honestly Orton isn't that charismatic to pull off the loose cannon gimmick. They also went away from the Cena gimmick with the original CM Punk gimmick and the pipe bomb stuff.

 

Now granted they crapped the bed on Punk and he became a smiling flag waving babyface in no time.

 

The WWE has a main event heel character and a main event face character and thats it. I agree with that whole heartily and thats why I just don't watch anymore. I gave up hoping some magical angle would save us from that. I thought The Nexus would change the way the WWE presented itself, then I thought for sure CM Punk would change the way business was done, I thought Brock Lesnar coming back and brutally beating up Cena in the Extreme Rules match would change the way the business is done. Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, The Shield the list goes on.

 

Kleenex doesn't just randomly start putting out a different product of their tissues, Vice Grips don't randomly change the way they operate, You can virtually tell no different in any generation of the iPhone. The WWE is the same as those. It is a world wide, multi million dollar brand and as long as they continue to operate at a certain baseline of production they will never alter the way they do business but its not financially smart to constantly be changing the way your product is digested by the public when you're a publicly traded, publicly branded company and most importantly of all when you're a brand that has no direct competitor in your field.

 

That being said TNA gives me hope that Pro Wrestling can survive.

 

But now once again there are rumors that TNA is looking to change its format away from being the "guy network" and more marketed towards females and reality tv. I have heard that they like TNA as a lead in for Bellator. And honestly I have no idea why they would do that when Bellator just drew 1.2 million viewers for Bellator 89 and TNA does a million viewers a week like clockwork. So I really think I chalk it up to just some sort of nasty rumor and some sick fetish in the TV world where TNA is in danger of being cancelled by the poorly run, ever confusing, conundrum of a network that is Spike TV. I honestly don't understand in the cable boom the last five years as seen with networks like A&E, AMC, FX, TNT, History Channel, Discovery Channel, TBS, and so many others that draw such huge ratings for original dramatic and comedic content why Spike TV offers so little in the way of that. I can understand that reality tv and game show award shows are easy to produce but they also don't bring in the advertising dollars that a dramatic episodic television show on most occasions atleast.

[Fleisch]

Beth left on her own accord and in fact the WWE is actively trying to get her to return.

 

On a side note I don't care of girls are fitness models, playboy models, or life long fans. That has no bearing on what their skill level will be.

 

I must admit I haven't watched too many Shimmer matches (nor has anyone else from the DVD sales/attendance records) and women's wrestling is a niche product. It should be treated the same way the Cruiserweight or the Hardcore division should.

 

That being said the absolute best female wrestler in the last 25 years was Trish Stratus. I'm talking everything you need from a wrestler. Looks, charisma, character, athletic ability and popularity. She was literally the complete package. In fact her match with Stephanie McMahon which The Wrestling Observer rated atleast *** and named it better than anything on the Women's of Wrestling Pay Per View that had recently aired that year.

 

So a fitness model and a billion dollar princess put on a better wrestling match than 99 percent of the women going today. I think Trish is reason enough not to judge a book by its cover. Who would have thought during her T&A days she would go on to be the best female wrestler of a generation.

 

I know its part of the internet to make quick, decisive, definitive decisions on people and that goes for beyond pro wrestling it extends into politics and general lifestyles I just don't see what the rush in seeing and judging people that if this was 1993 and not 2013 we wouldn't even know existed until the WWE ran a vignette for them on Sunday Superstars.

 

No doubt in the WWE, Trish is probably the best they've had in years - for the product they were putting out - and popular as hell. She took the chance given and ran with it. She trained hard and worked to keep her spot - as you said she did have the complete package for a WWE wrestler. Her Hall of Fame induction shows how highly regarded she was by the company.

 

I can't agree she was the absolute best female wrestler in the last 25 years because I think there were many in Japan I would rate higher in terms of charisma, matches and in ring athletic ability. Unfortunately due to the language barrier, many of them wouldn't get over with a US based, Global Sports Entertainment crowd.

 

Sometimes I miss the days of not knowing what will happen in wrestling - that naive child that once thought Hulk Hogan really was immortal, or who laughed when The Mountie was hauled off to jail. The kid who literally jumped up when he heard Bret Hart had won the WWE Championship and got angry when Owen Hart turned on Bret. It used to be compelling but I can't decide if that was because I was young and didn't know better or if the writing has just been on the decline in recent years.

[Ghoul]

The "Typical WWE Heel that's not a monster" comment. Historically, that is a heel. A heel cheats, does underhanded things to win.

 

i agree of course, i love heels like this, heck edge, the ultimate opportunist, was my favourite wwe wrestler of all time and it fit his gimmick so well. but to me this heel type becomes a problem when every heel does it(except the monsters). also to me at least it is better for a face to win when the heel is a threat and not a annoyance wich cheating heels tend to be. id just love to have a few heels who can win because they are good and not because they have more people in their entourage or something. ah, i think a good mix would just be better and a bit more interesting.

 

i agree with you on almost anything else, good points there, sadly i dont have a good mind for discussion right now^^.

 

and thanks a lot for wishing me well, the worst of my illness is gone, meaning the fever, and now i just have to deal with a few annoying symptoms. hope you all had a good easter and all that.

[Tha Black Phenom]

There isn't anyone at his level, but there sure are people they can build around, without losing a step if Cena somehow disappeared. They just won't have a "Hogan/Austin/Rock/Cena" to build from is all. They will still have Big Show, Mark Henry, Daniel Bryan, Punk (although he's been talking retirement), Kane, Ziggler, etc. These people will still all be there.

 

They aren't the money makers Cena vs Rock is, but they will sell tickets. It's not like WWE is hurting for talent (quick look at FCW, nope, not hurting). With the right compelling storylines (might need to hire better writers perhaps), with the right actor/wrestlers/characters, they could keep things going and stay as number one. Mega stars like that don't come around much, and to be honest, Cena leaving would only make it that more obvious.

 

You can't "Force" that to happen.

 

As I said before, you can't just job Cena out to someone and expect that person to therefore be on the same level as Cena. That's why just anyone beating Undertaker wouldn't work either. Undertaker is in a section all his own, and really the biggest "Sports Entertainment" type star ever. I mean that in the most "Entertainment" way possible, because.... Who over 10 would believe there is a guy that was named "The Undertaker" and can come back to life after being dead? One of the many reasons I just don't see him losing his streak to just "anyone", and the only reason I don't see him losing this time, even with him stating he wants his streak to be broke by someone. I'm hoping Punk does, but as I said.. If he's actually thinking of retiring at any point in the next five years, I wouldn't let him win either.

 

But yeah, FCW looks full of potential, and I'm sure we would see some of that if Cena was to get hurt or what not.

 

As was pointed out though, there have been instance's of when Cena was out of the picture, and there was literally no one that could even come close to his status. It's not going to be easy without John Cena, but WWE is still going to go on, and still be on top, even if it's Punk vs Bryan headlining every PPV.

 

One thing that grates me in regards to this is the gap they've put between Cena and most of the roster. Like, fine, they don't have to bring anybody to Cena's level necessarily, but at least make some pushes stick once they've developed. There's been so many upper-midcarders who went back down to the midcard for whatever reason while a select few manage to stay on top(Punk, Sheamus, Del Rio) but even they supposedly can't hold a candle to Cena. Part of CM Punk's flair towards his current stardom was the fact he "never lost" to Cena and always escaped with some dusty finish in his title defenses.

 

 

It's not just that, you notice... Cena is so high up the card that he barely wrestles matches on Raw these days. Well, barely is a mild exaggeration, he laces up his boots quite often but at the same time, he shows more parity in his TV matches lately. Everyone knows his opponents will either get fed to him or some dirty finish will occur. There's not as much sense of contest or challenge in regards to Cena, unless Punk is involved or a stipulation. Back in 06-09, it was different because there was more star power. Cena would still steamroll over his opponents but there was a cinch of doubt in the outcome.

[lazorbeak]

That being said the absolute best female wrestler in the last 25 years was Trish Stratus. I'm talking everything you need from a wrestler. Looks, charisma, character, athletic ability and popularity. She was literally the complete package. In fact her match with Stephanie McMahon which The Wrestling Observer rated atleast *** and named it better than anything on the Women's of Wrestling Pay Per View that had recently aired that year.

 

So a fitness model and a billion dollar princess put on a better wrestling match than 99 percent of the women going today. I think Trish is reason enough not to judge a book by its cover. Who would have thought during her T&A days she would go on to be the best female wrestler of a generation.

 

Agreed that Trish was the best women's wrestler in North America of the past 25 years, but I did a spit take at the evidence that Trish/Steph was better than anything on the WOW pay per view. I think Trish and Steph both had far more training than any of the girls on that show barring a couple of veterans that trained everyone on the roster with the same five moves. And I think Fit Finlay might be a better trainer/agent than Peggy Lee Leather, too.

 

But yeah, WWE has no real interest in building up a women's division. These days I'm not even sure who's in the women's division, with Eve, Beth, and whoever else gone.

[Comradebot]

Agreed that Trish was the best women's wrestler in North America of the past 25 years, but I did a spit take at the evidence that Trish/Steph was better than anything on the WOW pay per view. I think Trish and Steph both had far more training than any of the girls on that show barring a couple of veterans that trained everyone on the roster with the same five moves. And I think Fit Finlay might be a better trainer/agent than Peggy Lee Leather, too.

 

But yeah, WWE has no real interest in building up a women's division. These days I'm not even sure who's in the women's division, with Eve, Beth, and whoever else gone.

 

WWE don't so much have a "women's division" as they do a "big, fake boobies division". And yeah, I can't think of any names off the top of my head... though Snuka's girl, and that blonde from Texas have both impressed me.

[djthefunkchris]

One thing that grates me in regards to this is the gap they've put between Cena and most of the roster. Like, fine, they don't have to bring anybody to Cena's level necessarily, but at least make some pushes stick once they've developed. There's been so many upper-midcarders who went back down to the midcard for whatever reason while a select few manage to stay on top(Punk, Sheamus, Del Rio) but even they supposedly can't hold a candle to Cena. Part of CM Punk's flair towards his current stardom was the fact he "never lost" to Cena and always escaped with some dusty finish in his title defenses.

 

 

It's not just that, you notice... Cena is so high up the card that he barely wrestles matches on Raw these days. Well, barely is a mild exaggeration, he laces up his boots quite often but at the same time, he shows more parity in his TV matches lately. Everyone knows his opponents will either get fed to him or some dirty finish will occur. There's not as much sense of contest or challenge in regards to Cena, unless Punk is involved or a stipulation. Back in 06-09, it was different because there was more star power. Cena would still steamroll over his opponents but there was a cinch of doubt in the outcome.

 

The fans put Cena there, not them. It's not their fault Cena is so far ahead of the pack in popularity.

 

IF you were to try and pull other's up to his level, it would only reduce Cena's level if they aren't already there.... You could have Cena lose to say Sheamus, over and over... but that's not going to automatically make them as popular as Cena, and the bigger picture is... that it's more likely to lower Cena's status then it is to help someone else out.

 

If anything, look at Punk. He brought himself up to the level he is now. He's not getting over because he beat Cena, he's over because he did a "Austin 3:16" career defining promo, and has the ability to do it again whenever he wants.

 

On the Active Roster you have Cena at say 100 popularity (Just setting him as the standard to be reached, not saying he's 100 pop TEW wise). Close behind him is Punk with 90 pop, perhaps Orton with 85 pop, then you have the rest of the so called main event around 60 to 75 pop... with gatekeeper's steadily over 70 pop.

 

If your at 60 pop, and they push you, and you only get to 65 pop when you should have reached 75 pop, then your going back down the card to regroup and try another way.

 

Over the last several years, to me it is completely obvious that the opposite of what most post is actually more true. They do try to find another gem all the time, thus the push's they get. When they fail to be that rare "gem" that can sell PPV's and get better ratings, they go back down the card. They seem to be well aware that just because it failed once, doesn't necessarily mean that talent can't be the headliner they are looking for, because they constantly re-try them over and over again.

 

You have to do those things, to see if someone has connected with the people yet... "Connection". The whole time Rock was doing that promo, I couldn't help but believe that was more for the other guys in the back.

[Teh_Showtime]

IF you were to try and pull other's up to his level, it would only reduce Cena's level if they aren't already there....

 

If anything, look at Punk. He brought himself up to the level he is now. He's not getting over because he beat Cena, he's over because he did a "Austin 3:16" career defining promo, and has the ability to do it again whenever he wants.

 

No. Nobody would have cared about CM Punk nearly as much if he didn't beat John Cena numerous times in 2011 after he said the things he said. Otherwise he is just another heel that can't back up his talk. They have booked Punk and Cena to be equals over the past few years and it has elevated Punk and hasn't hurt Cena at all.

 

This misconception that somehow if Cena loses he won't be looked at the same is pretty ridiculous in the first place. First of all he doesn't have to LOSE, they just need to let other people look like they belong in his league. The only people who can feud with Cena these days and look credible are part timers and CM Punk. Every other feud he has had he utterly destroyed the opponent to the point of no return instead of letting them look like relative equals so that the crowd might warm up to them in the future since they were seen as equals to Cena.

 

What was the difference between Orton a few years ago and Ziggler in 2012/13? Both got a PPV win over Cena but what happened before and after the PPV is what made fans think more or less of the guys. Ziggler lost every match they had leading to the PPV, and then every one after the PPV including numerous interferences and finishers failing only to lose on a single finisher. Orton on the other hand was in control of the feud on a consistent basis and always looked strong so that coming in to the matches with Cena a loss wouldn't do as much damage because he had already accumulated enough heat to where the loss would bring him down but still net more of a positive outcome.

[bigtplaystew]

WWE don't so much have a "women's division" as they do a "big, fake boobies division".

 

You say this like it's a bad thing ;-)

[djthefunkchris]

No. Nobody would have cared about CM Punk nearly as much if he didn't beat John Cena numerous times in 2011 after he said the things he said. Otherwise he is just another heel that can't back up his talk. They have booked Punk and Cena to be equals over the past few years and it has elevated Punk and hasn't hurt Cena at all.

 

This misconception that somehow if Cena loses he won't be looked at the same is pretty ridiculous in the first place. First of all he doesn't have to LOSE, they just need to let other people look like they belong in his league. The only people who can feud with Cena these days and look credible are part timers and CM Punk. Every other feud he has had he utterly destroyed the opponent to the point of no return instead of letting them look like relative equals so that the crowd might warm up to them in the future since they were seen as equals to Cena.

 

What was the difference between Orton a few years ago and Ziggler in 2012/13? Both got a PPV win over Cena but what happened before and after the PPV is what made fans think more or less of the guys. Ziggler lost every match they had leading to the PPV, and then every one after the PPV including numerous interferences and finishers failing only to lose on a single finisher. Orton on the other hand was in control of the feud on a consistent basis and always looked strong so that coming in to the matches with Cena a loss wouldn't do as much damage because he had already accumulated enough heat to where the loss would bring him down but still net more of a positive outcome.

 

I just don't agree with much of this at all. That doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong, we can disagree, it's not like either of us can prove how we feel is more right then how the other one feels, but we can debate it/discuss it.

 

First off, IMO Punk is head and shoulders, and I mean by far, over Ziggler. I honestly still cannot see why so many people on the internet like him so much. Don't get me wrong, I love his youtube show, and if he could bring that out on Raw/Smackdown, I would be with everyone else... but he hasn't been able to do that in front of a live crowd. He comes off as a spoiled brat, and it's not working at all IMO. I would love to see the happy go lucky/fun loving/articulate and above all, spontaneous wit that he has displayed at times on his youtube show. That would work, I believe... but he doesn't or can't do it in front of a live crowd, which is hurting him. They've tried to get him over more times then anyone else on the show, and he always comes off as a kid more then a man, and that's hurting him in a huge way.

 

Orton on the other hand, even when throwing a temper tantrum, comes off as a man. That makes all the difference to me. It's why I can't ever see someone like Evan Bourne getting a realistic push... in any division.

 

The Shield members, mostly come off as men... heck, that guy (name escapes me), Vickie's assistant, comes off more as a man then Ziggler does.

 

I do think eventually he's going to get out of that. I do believe I've seen times when he made me forget about it. However, for the most part, that's what is hurting him IMO.

 

As far as Punk goes... If they had done him any different, they would have passed up a huge opportunity to build him up to the level he is now. CM Punks debut on WWEECW come out as if he was a legitimate threat to anyone, and there were backstage segments with current Smackdown/Raw champs where he basically said he couldn't wait to get in the ring with one of them... and the audience was behind HIM. He's always had "IT", from that first debut. His problem wasn't the same as Ziggler's, his problem was getting WWE creative to see that he had "IT". Obviously most of what come after his "Austin 3:16" type promo, was them taking advantage of him while he was hot, and WWE creative finally seeing he had "IT".

 

I'm capitalizing "IT", but reading how I'm doing that it looks like it can come off as if I'm yelling, and I'm not. I'm not even really stressing the word... I'm capitalizing only because I mean it in the "Star Quality" way.

 

But yeah... Punk let one out, they went with him on it, and basically copied Punk's "Summer of Punk" in ROH, brought him back ASAP to keep capitalizing on him, although most of us would have done that different.

 

IF you don't think that Promo was the big turning point, we are just going to completely disagree on him totally. Punks pipe bombs is what gets him over more then anything, and his ring work makes anyone he's up against look twice as good.

 

Don't get me wrong, Ziggler's in ring work makes everyone look great as well. Just IMO, he overdoes it a tad too much, sometimes reminding me of HBK vs Hogan (and I can hear the Benny Hill theme in my head when he's doing it).

 

I can take Punk serious, Orton has always come across serious. Ziggler however, doesn't come across serious, or a threat. His promo's come off childish, and his in ring work comes across funny, at least to me. I love it, but I can't take it serious.

 

Far as Cena being brought down by losing to Ziggler..> Yes, Ziggler isn't even in the Kane/Big Show/Henry or Sheamus league as far as threats go. To be honest, The Rock beating Cena the way he did unintentionally hurt Cena (and even worse with Punk). The Rock is pretty much as high as you can go for the majority of the audience.

 

What I figure is the best thing they can do... Let Ziggy and Big-E win the title's... then let Ziggler cash in his Money in the bank on Swagger or Del Rio and win, at Wrestlemania. I'd choose Swagger, and somewhat turn Ziggler face at the same time... I have a feeling there is a fun loving babyface just waiting to burst out of him, and I have a feeling this is what he needs to finally get over properly.... and perhaps bring him up to the level of Kane/Big Show/Henry/Sheamus.

[Teh_Showtime]

That wasn't the point I was making you were stating that having Cena lose makes his stock fall when that is far from true. I was stating that having other people consistently look like they aren't on his level continually beats that into the mind of the fans.

 

The reason people take CM Punk serious is because until last month he has beaten John Cena numerous times and so people accept him as on that level. On the other hand when they had other new guys pretty much in the same position where a balanced feud with Cena would do wonders for their career they often left the feud looking far worse than when they started the feud. It was true for Wade Barrett and is especially true for Ziggler.

 

It's no fault of his own but 9 out of every 10 feuds for Cena are designed for him to suck his opponent of all of their momentum while he destroys them both verbally and physically, it just so happened that Punk was the 1 out of 10.

[Nathers7]

That wasn't the point I was making you were stating that having Cena lose makes his stock fall when that is far from true. I was stating that having other people consistently look like they aren't on his level continually beats that into the mind of the fans.

 

The reason people take CM Punk serious is because until last month he has beaten John Cena numerous times and so people accept him as on that level. On the other hand when they had other new guys pretty much in the same position where a balanced feud with Cena would do wonders for their career they often left the feud looking far worse than when they started the feud. It was true for Wade Barrett and is especially true for Ziggler.

 

It's no fault of his own but 9 out of every 10 feuds for Cena are designed for him to suck his opponent of all of their momentum while he destroys them both verbally and physically, it just so happened that Punk was the 1 out of 10.

 

I agree, especially when you look at where Ziggler was in mid-2012, he was getting massive pops from the crowd for someone who was being booked as a midcard heel, whether dj took him seriously or not, the crowd were definitely taking him seriously if you watch some of his matches in and around his Money and the Bank win. Since his feud with Cena and the random losing streak he was put on, the crowd has stopped caring, they had Cena beat him clean two weeks in a row in January which ruined the momentum he had with his newly formed group (Big E and AJ), and made his win at TLC irrelevant. Looking back the only benefit that TLC win had was to turn AJ heel. It hasn't helped Ziggler at all. Wade Barrett doesn't even need explaining really, biggest heel in the WWE in late 2010, they have Cena completely bury the best storyline WWE had going at the time for no benefits, they could have built Barrett and kept him at the top but randomly fed to Cena, I will never understand why.

 

Then you look at Punk and how he benefitted from beating Cena, yes the pipe bomb helped but no one's going to tell me that if Punk lost to Cena at Money in the Bank he'd be as big a star, the win in Chicago made him, losing to Cena would put him in that same spot as others. As soon as WWE realise that Cena doesn't have to come out of a feud looking like he's on another plateau to anyone else in the company, he doesn't need to lose much, that's not what I'm saying. Just don't have this Superhero overcoming all the odds to finish a feud and destroy a young star with potential's momentum (Barrett, Miz looked well up until Over The Limit and the hilarious "I Quit" Match", Ziggler).

[shawn michaels]

Josh Mathews saying Fandango's name is very creepy! "FamDaamgoo!!!" It's very creepy! xD

[Rickymex]

I find it quite funny that out of all the matches at Wrestlemania the one I find the most entertaining is Fandango vs Jericho. I'm a big fan of creepy Curtis and I'm really looking forward to see what he's able to do against an opponent way above his league. I always saw Johnny as the real-life version of Remmy Honeyman but with more charisma. Honeyman has always been able to put matches in the 70 - 80 range when put against my top guys so I'm hoping we are able to see that from Curtis.

[Teh_Showtime]

I also love Curtis he always seemed to me like he had a ton of character but could never unleash it, but I think his current gimmick allows him properly show it off.

[Rickymex]

There's a lot of guys in FCW that just seems to have some type of character but never got to use it. Derrick Bateman is another guy I hope gets another chance to re-debut especially with his USA guy gimmick. Even if he's a jobber with a good gimmick easy for crowds to love he could have a good run. Antonio Cesaro could use a good opponent and while Derrick isn't anything special in the ring he knows what to do and when to do it.

 

 

 

Going back to the John Cena conversation I have to agree with Showtime. IF we take this in the form of a TEW game then Cena would be a guy with popularity in the A* area that is FIXED to never go down much. Cena is the entire backbone of the WWE and everything revolves around him in some way or another. He should be used as the ultimate gatekeeper into the Main Event. If you're able to hang in the ring with Cena evenly, without cheating and giving Cena a fight that he BARELY eeks out a win you should be treated as a Main Eventer. Cena made his name out of losing to guys like Lesnar, Angle, Taker, and Guerrero but giving them the fight of their life's. Once Cena became a main eventer they build up Edge by making him Cena's archnemesis who could take on Cena without looking weak. Then Cena was used to make Randy after Triple H failed to (HHH however made Batista IMO). The last guy Cena was used to make was CM Punk even through in this case most of the work rested on CM Punk and how he could use Cena's broken character to build himself.

 

The biggest problem is that after those three no other Superstar was build from the guys Cena created. It should have been a chain like this:

 

_____-> Edge -> No One

_____l

Cena -> Randy Orton -> No One

_____l

_____-> CM Punk -> Tried with Ryback but booking failed.

 

The few other guys who could have created stars just lost to the other top guys and nothing ever came out of it.

 

Batista lost to Cena and retired.

 

HBK retired by Taker.

 

HHH is the boss.

 

JBL retired by No-Knees Man.

 

No-Knees Man has no knees.

 

Lesnar is too special.

 

Taker fights one guy a year.

 

Big Show is a giant and only superheroes are able to beat giants. (Big Show could have easily been used to create a major star if they have done something similar to E-V'Atomic vs Vengeance feud.)

 

Edge retired as Champion(He deserved and his leaving was understandable)

 

I don't think that Cena will be around forever and that now in his prime it would be for the best if they allow him to use this championship reign to build both major faces and heels. Cena already has most of the crowd split in two and if Cena is able to go the Tanahashi route of the Champion being above the labellings of Faces and Heels it would open up many possibilities.

 

Cena vs Sheamus and Cena vs Ryback could easily cement the two Low Main Eventers into solid stars for the future. A good old brawl where Cena has to give it his all and even more to defeat a headstrong Sheamus would be great and Cena losing his title to Ryback in the future could make Ryback a bigger star than winning it from Punk. The Survivor Series triple threat showed just that Ryback is able to manhandle someone of Cena power as the match consisted of Ryback destroying Punk and Cena until the two worked together to take them out until he came back and kicked both their asses.

 

Cena will always be Cena after all this years and he is the man capable of regaining any "lost" popularity with a few SERIOUS promos such as the ones in Summer of Punk II.

[Teh_Showtime]

That's a good point. It is reminding me a bit of 1998 after WM14 because they had lost both Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels pretty recently and really only had Undertaker, Austin, and by extension Kane as true, consistent main event players and then they were forced to build the roster up and by the end of the year Rock, HHH, Foley, etc were coming into their own as major stars.

 

The difference today is that they don't give a damn because they can just bring back part timers for a short term boost at the expense of all the younger guys. It's a good strategy in the short term but they are hindering the people that will be selling PPVs for the next decade and it's like they don't even care.

 

Look no further than the TLC PPV and how young guys were positioned compared to the last 3 months when the part timers came around. You have guys like Orton and Sheamus relegated to the midcard and generally not being treated as important but in 2 months they will be in main events trying to sell events. The fact that the part timers exist in an entirely different dimension than the regular roster (bar Cena and Punk) pretty much tells the fans to not believe in any full time guys as big stars aside from the ones who interact with the part time ones.

[Blackman]

What the hell were they thinking? Closing the show with a divas match? The last RAW pre-Mania would've pulled a about a C in TEW logic, as the main event would provide much of the rating. Makes you wonder whether that logic is still relevant.

 

Yet the show didn't exactly suck. I liked the Rock's promo and some other promo's, though I didn't dig Fandango and CM Punk (must be the first time ever that happened ).

[Rickymex]

Look no further than the TLC PPV and how young guys were positioned compared to the last 3 months when the part timers came around. You have guys like Orton and Sheamus relegated to the midcard and generally not being treated as important but in 2 months they will be in main events trying to sell events. The fact that the part timers exist in an entirely different dimension than the regular roster (bar Cena and Punk) pretty much tells the fans to not believe in any full time guys as big stars aside from the ones who interact with the part time ones.

 

 

That is another point I didn't mention. WWE has no clear distinctions between the different positions in the cards.

 

The Main Eventers are treated like midcarders but WWE still wants to consider them top guys. (Sheamus, Randy Orton, Ziggler, Wade Barrett.

 

Midcarders who should be the ones running the midcard titles and the tag team titles are nothing but jobbers.(Zack Ryder, Every Tag Team except for Hell No, Antonio Cesaro, 3MB)

 

And the actual jobbers don't even exist. (JTG and... JTG)

 

 

You just can't treat a guy like shot and expect to turn it all around with a one week streak and calling it over and over that he's on a streak. There is not consistency whatsoever and they don't have anywhere to bring up guys and allow them to make a name for themselves. In a perfect world you would have an extremely solid midcard consisting of talented youngster on the rise (Antonio Cesaro), top guys with nothing to do to bring in some star power (Team Hell No, The Miz), Veterans who no longer belong in the top (Finlay, William Regal), guys who can work but won't be main eventers anytime soon (Chris Masters, MVP, Fandango, a majority of NXT guys), comedy fodder (Santino, Tons of Funk), and lastly the new potential youngster who need experience (Richie Steamboat, Bo Dallas, the rest of important NXT guys)

[Moe Hunter]

The fans put Cena there, not them. It's not their fault Cena is so far ahead of the pack in popularity.

The fans got him to beating JBL. WWE pushed him over Christian, Jericho, Angle, HBK, HHH... All when the crowd was firmly telling them that they'd rather Cena fall back down a peg. Go back and watch Kurt Angle's promo before their last encounter. Look back at how hot Christian was in 2005 (primarily from his anti-Cena promos at RR and Backlash) and how woefully they wasted his momentum.

 

They did everything they could to make the established guys as heelish as possible, everything they could to push Cena higher than he should have been. And still the crowd went crazy when Edge cashed in on him. People were hoping even Carlito or Masters might have beaten him - not for them to be champion, just for Cena to lose. The biggest ratings in that era were the Raw after NYR when Edge made his first appearance as champion, yet they squandered it by having Cena regain the belt in a lacklustre match only three weeks later.

 

To say that the fans put Cena where he is today really seems to miss the mark. WWE has done everything they can think of to keep him on top and try to make him loved. Zack Ryder becomes popular? Let's make a big storyline between him and Kane where Cena's the only guy who gets a boost. CM Punk is the next Austin? Let's have Cena Main Event every PPV above Punk, even in matches that don't hold anywhere near the intrigue or importance level. Because why bother legitimising the championship, when Cena's the valuable element... And he'll be around forever, right?

 

 

The fact is that if no one is given the chance to shine outside of Cena, they're never going to have their next Cena. Just like they missed their chances to make Booker T or RVD into top tier stars while they were desperately trying to make Triple H more significant than he should be (hell, they're still going with that), they have missed and will miss the chance to make a bunch of top tier stars.

 

Barrett could have been huge, but they couldn't even risk having Cena miss one Raw after being "fired" and giving a huge, emotional, seemingly shoot, farewell speech. Instead Barrett got literally buried at TLC, and is now wrestling The Miz on the Youtube pre-show for WM.

 

Punk should have been THE next icon, but again, they couldn't possibly do without Cena for even one show when again he was supposed to be "fired". They rushed the whole "two champions" storyline, taking away so much potential momentum for Punk doing all sorts of "non WWE" appearances. They squashed Rey Mysterio and The Miz who had one hell of a championship match, having Cena act as a total heel and beating Rey who had already competed that night, and in a ladder match the week before. Then, in the big rematch Punk lost the belt to Del Rio and instead of getting his natural rematch, Cena for no reason, with no claim to a shot at the title, of course he got the title feud and the main event. Punk got all his remaining momentum sucked out by a boring, shoe-horned and rewritten-by-the-week feud with Nash and Triple H, which in the end was just a lead-in for a Cliq feud.

 

Hell, even while they're trying to build WM28-WM29 as Cena's "downward spiral", he BEAT Brock Lesnar, and consistently beat Dolph Ziggler despite any amount of interference, week in and week out.

 

There's no glass ceiling anymore. It's a glass Cena. None shall pass.

[Makhai]

The problem with the WWE today begins and ends with booking. WM 29 card is perfect example of this. They're selling the biggest card of the year on 2 matches that are only being booked because someone in them "has to get their win back". The entire concept of "getting wins back" is stupid. The only time this used to happen was when champions failed to get over with the belt.

 

The problem is, the WWE doesn't really care about who wins and loses. It only cares about filling cards as efficiently as possible. Having circular feud chains that ultimately accomplish nothing is what the WWE wants. It's the mission statement. The way they see it the crowd will pop for the characters they like and those chosen few get pushed up the card by losing 50 straight matches before winning titles. Because this is the WWE, and this is what happens when no competent competition exists in anything. The era of the WWE giving people the hard, long push is over. Nobody is going to create The Nation of Domination because they think Ahmed Johnson and Ron Simmons are swell guys with tons of potential. Today "Farooq" is a jobber-for-life the second that blue helmet gag hits RAW screens. He doesn't get a new gimmick, he just jobs with that thing on until he quits or gets fired.

 

The reason this is the case is, well, because the talent comes to them, they don't need to make due with what they have. Another train is coming. So that's why RAW sucks, and why this is probably the worst WM push I've seen ever. Because frankly, we're going to buy it anyway. So why bother right? If we actually wanted something better, we'd stop buying what we're given.

[Makhai]

The fans got him to beating JBL. WWE pushed him over Christian, Jericho, Angle, HBK, HHH... All when the crowd was firmly telling them that they'd rather Cena fall back down a peg. Go back and watch Kurt Angle's promo before their last encounter. Look back at how hot Christian was in 2005 (primarily from his anti-Cena promos at RR and Backlash) and how woefully they wasted his momentum.

 

They did everything they could to make the established guys as heelish as possible, everything they could to push Cena higher than he should have been. And still the crowd went crazy when Edge cashed in on him. People were hoping even Carlito or Masters might have beaten him - not for them to be champion, just for Cena to lose. The biggest ratings in that era were the Raw after NYR when Edge made his first appearance as champion, yet they squandered it by having Cena regain the belt in a lacklustre match only three weeks later.

 

To say that the fans put Cena where he is today really seems to miss the mark. WWE has done everything they can think of to keep him on top and try to make him loved. Zack Ryder becomes popular? Let's make a big storyline between him and Kane where Cena's the only guy who gets a boost. CM Punk is the next Austin? Let's have Cena Main Event every PPV above Punk, even in matches that don't hold anywhere near the intrigue or importance level. Because why bother legitimising the championship, when Cena's the valuable element... And he'll be around forever, right?

 

 

The fact is that if no one is given the chance to shine outside of Cena, they're never going to have their next Cena. Just like they missed their chances to make Booker T or RVD into top tier stars while they were desperately trying to make Triple H more significant than he should be (hell, they're still going with that), they have missed and will miss the chance to make a bunch of top tier stars.

 

Barrett could have been huge, but they couldn't even risk having Cena miss one Raw after being "fired" and giving a huge, emotional, seemingly shoot, farewell speech. Instead Barrett got literally buried at TLC, and is now wrestling The Miz on the Youtube pre-show for WM.

 

Punk should have been THE next icon, but again, they couldn't possibly do without Cena for even one show when again he was supposed to be "fired". They rushed the whole "two champions" storyline, taking away so much potential momentum for Punk doing all sorts of "non WWE" appearances. They squashed Rey Mysterio and The Miz who had one hell of a championship match, having Cena act as a total heel and beating Rey who had already competed that night, and in a ladder match the week before. Then, in the big rematch Punk lost the belt to Del Rio and instead of getting his natural rematch, Cena for no reason, with no claim to a shot at the title, of course he got the title feud and the main event. Punk got all his remaining momentum sucked out by a boring, shoe-horned and rewritten-by-the-week feud with Nash and Triple H, which in the end was just a lead-in for a Cliq feud.

 

Hell, even while they're trying to build WM28-WM29 as Cena's "downward spiral", he BEAT Brock Lesnar, and consistently beat Dolph Ziggler despite any amount of interference, week in and week out.

 

There's no glass ceiling anymore. It's a glass Cena. None shall pass.

 

 

To shoehorn my point into this, it's hard to put faith in something you view as disposable. Everybody not named Cena or HHH is disposable to them. The problem is, they have a golden goose Moe.... PPVs are up 50% thanks to "social media." The only metric the WWE cares about is it's bank account, and as long as the ratings are good and the PPV money is flowing, nothing is going to change until it has to. If Cena can go 300 nights a year next year, guess who's MEing every card? Exactly.

[lazorbeak]

The fans got him to beating JBL. WWE pushed him over Christian, Jericho, Angle, HBK, HHH... All when the crowd was firmly telling them that they'd rather Cena fall back down a peg. Go back and watch Kurt Angle's promo before their last encounter. Look back at how hot Christian was in 2005 (primarily from his anti-Cena promos at RR and Backlash) and how woefully they wasted his momentum.

 

They did everything they could to make the established guys as heelish as possible, everything they could to push Cena higher than he should have been. And still the crowd went crazy when Edge cashed in on him. People were hoping even Carlito or Masters might have beaten him - not for them to be champion, just for Cena to lose. The biggest ratings in that era were the Raw after NYR when Edge made his first appearance as champion, yet they squandered it by having Cena regain the belt in a lacklustre match only three weeks later.

 

To say that the fans put Cena where he is today really seems to miss the mark. WWE has done everything they can think of to keep him on top and try to make him loved. Zack Ryder becomes popular? Let's make a big storyline between him and Kane where Cena's the only guy who gets a boost. CM Punk is the next Austin? Let's have Cena Main Event every PPV above Punk, even in matches that don't hold anywhere near the intrigue or importance level. Because why bother legitimising the championship, when Cena's the valuable element... And he'll be around forever, right?

 

 

The fact is that if no one is given the chance to shine outside of Cena, they're never going to have their next Cena. Just like they missed their chances to make Booker T or RVD into top tier stars while they were desperately trying to make Triple H more significant than he should be (hell, they're still going with that), they have missed and will miss the chance to make a bunch of top tier stars.

 

Barrett could have been huge, but they couldn't even risk having Cena miss one Raw after being "fired" and giving a huge, emotional, seemingly shoot, farewell speech. Instead Barrett got literally buried at TLC, and is now wrestling The Miz on the Youtube pre-show for WM.

 

Punk should have been THE next icon, but again, they couldn't possibly do without Cena for even one show when again he was supposed to be "fired". They rushed the whole "two champions" storyline, taking away so much potential momentum for Punk doing all sorts of "non WWE" appearances. They squashed Rey Mysterio and The Miz who had one hell of a championship match, having Cena act as a total heel and beating Rey who had already competed that night, and in a ladder match the week before. Then, in the big rematch Punk lost the belt to Del Rio and instead of getting his natural rematch, Cena for no reason, with no claim to a shot at the title, of course he got the title feud and the main event. Punk got all his remaining momentum sucked out by a boring, shoe-horned and rewritten-by-the-week feud with Nash and Triple H, which in the end was just a lead-in for a Cliq feud.

 

Hell, even while they're trying to build WM28-WM29 as Cena's "downward spiral", he BEAT Brock Lesnar, and consistently beat Dolph Ziggler despite any amount of interference, week in and week out.

 

There's no glass ceiling anymore. It's a glass Cena. None shall pass.

 

This is somewhat revisionist history, though. Cena was hugely over and was seen as a future star even before his first win over Big Show for the US Title at WM, which really cemented him as an up-and-comer. But switching to Raw meant he was suddenly dealing with a slightly different audience (Raw and Smackdown were actually getting somewhat different audiences at the time, with Raw skewing older, and Smackdown skewing more minority), and WWE proceeded to put him over Jericho and Angle in short order, as both were taking breaks and it seemed a natural fit. Unfortunately, completely controlling feuds against two smart-mark darlings in a row caused a small but growing percentage of the crowd, mostly holdovers from the Attitude era, to turn on Cena pretty quickly, as the impression was that he "couldn't wrestle" and that he didn't deserve his spot.

 

And while it's true that Cena has become the Hogan of the late 2000's early 2010's, that's at least in part due to Batista and Lesnar (and to a lesser extent, Bobby Lashley, who was clearly being groomed as a big star) all quitting to do MMA/not work a full schedule, while Attitude era guys slowly retired or dropped off to part time. WWE also has the annoying habit of elevating guys up the card, but then not trusting them to be treated like main eventers the minute they don't have the title/aren't feuding with the top guy. Punk talks about this on his latest DVD, how creative went "well, you're done with Undertaker, now for a feud with R-Truth!" To Punk's credit, he was able to get time for him and his stable to get over as heels, and was back wrestling in high profile programs in no time. But it's like WWE is allergic to giving somebody like Cody Rhodes a feud with somebody that isn't over a belt, even though Cody can talk and is a solid worker.