The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[milamber]

<p>Raw wasn't all terrible. I enjoyed PTP taking the mickey out of Cena (even with Titus' dodgy gimmick). Rhodes vs ADR (botch aside) was good. The Triple Threat was decent until the predictable finish. Ricardo was a champ selling Swagger breaking his ankle. Punk tossing the urn around and swearing was cool (or distasteful depending on your perspective). HHH assaulting Heyman was good also. As was Ziggler winning his 3rd straight match.</p><p> </p><p>

I've heard that since that Senior VP dude was fired Vince has gotten more hands-on, tossing out storylines he doesn't like (even if they make more sense) and generally making creative more nervous than usual. Not the best time for it.</p><p> </p><p>

<span>http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/milamber/2013-03-15-del-rio-challenge_zps1149e873.jpg:original</span></p><p> </p><p>

<span>http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/milamber/2012-12-28-thq-shoes_zpsc0800508.jpg:original</span></p>

[Comradebot]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="milamber" data-cite="milamber" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Raw wasn't all terrible. I enjoyed PTP taking the mickey out of Cena (even with Titus' dodgy gimmick). Rhodes vs ADR (botch aside) was good. The Triple Threat was decent until the predictable finish. Ricardo was a champ selling Swagger breaking his ankle. <strong>Punk tossing the urn around and swearing was cool (or distasteful depending on your perspective).</strong> HHH assaulting Heyman was good also. As was Ziggler winning his 3rd straight match.<p> </p><p> <strong>I've heard that since that Senior VP dude was fired Vince has gotten more hands-on, tossing out storylines he doesn't like (even if they make more sense) and generally making creative more nervous than usual. Not the best time for it.</strong></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It is interesting that they're so willing to use the guy who just passed away so liberally as part of the feud, especially with the implication his ashes are in the urn.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Then again, Moody was a career guy who seemed to love his part in the WWF/E. Part of me thinks he'd be delighted to know that even in death he's contributing to the show. From what I understand, him and Taker were actually pretty close friends backstage and if Taker is cool with it, and his family doesn't seem to have a problem with it, then I don't see any harm.</p><p> </p><p> EDIT: Guess that explains some of the odd shiftings of direction around a few wrestlers. Seems like just a couple weeks ago, Barrett was set to battle Bo Dallas... and that feud just sorta faded away. Then again, since the start of the year he's been quasi-feuding with Dallas, Sheamus, The Miz, and now Jericho. Seems like they need to make up their minds, Barrett is too awesome not to push.</p>

[3rdStringPG]

Good point. Wonder what creative really has in store for Wade Barrett aside from those short-lived feuds. And what happened to Bo Dallas? He seems to have vanished off the face of RAW since his impressive debut and, at that time, sort-of interesting feud with Barrett.

[Comradebot]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="3rdStringPG" data-cite="3rdStringPG" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Good point. Wonder what creative really has in store for Wade Barrett aside from those short-lived feuds. And what happened to Bo Dallas? He seems to have vanished off the face of RAW since his impressive debut and, at that time, sort-of interesting feud with Barrett.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Really feels like there's multiple ways they want to take Wade, and they're just muddling with his momentum by all these "flash" feuds, most of which don't get any real resolution. One week he beats Randy Orton clean (who, thankfully, seems to be taking a backseat... hopefully he'll stay there until no one cares about him anymore), the next he drops a match to a guy who was essentially a jobber before then. Somewhere in between, he puts on a stellar bout with Sheamus.</p><p> </p><p> And then he starts flexing his acting muscles against The Miz and Jericho. It really feels like there's some confusion there about what to do with him.</p><p> </p><p> At least his shirt has an anchor and some direwolves.</p>

[bigtplaystew]

<p>I love Barrett and his time will come. A lot of people feel he's not quite ready for the big push. Thing is, when he was feuding with John Cena I thought he was a very credible, viable foil to Cena's babyface and worked well when the spotlight was on him. The NXT storyline was really great for awhile there when we were getting tired of the same old opponents for Cena (which is always the case with Cena). There was some bizarre notion that he wasn't quite ready for the main event, but he WAS the main event and IMO did quite well in that role.</p><p> </p><p>

I'm sure once Sheamus gets another title run later this year Barrett will get another crack at a main event feud with him. Those two have great matches. Sheamus actually has had some nice matches with Damien Sandow the past several months too. If anyone remembers their match on Main Event it was very stiff and old-school. I liked it a lot.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

As long as I don't have to see Justin Gabriel on RAW, I'm happy with things.

[Teh_Showtime]

Wade Barrett will never win a world title, he peaked in 2010 and they crapped on him. They started to build him in 2012 with an Orton feud but Broke his arm/elbow and is now just a mediocre midcard wrestler. He's like Kofi Kingston except Kofi never got hurt.

 

I mean, I like the guy (feel he's overrated though) but it is quite clear he will never be in a 1 on 1 PPV closing match again.

 

on another (also pretty sad) note

 

http://i.imgur.com/DWGftnf.jpg

[djthefunkchris]

Wade Barrett will never win a world title, he peaked in 2010 and they crapped on him. They started to build him in 2012 with an Orton feud but Broke his arm/elbow and is now just a mediocre midcard wrestler. He's like Kofi Kingston except Kofi never got hurt.

 

I mean, I like the guy (feel he's overrated though) but it is quite clear he will never be in a 1 on 1 PPV closing match again.

 

I like the ranking order, or whatever you want to call it... Supporting Actor's I guess would be better?

 

Anyways yeah, I also felt he was a little over rated. Don't get me wrong, I think he's way above average on the mic, but that's the only place he really impressed me.

 

What my point is though, I like having a midcard full of people that could potentially be in the main event, makes the whole roster feel stronger. I remember when people like Savage and Steamboat were sitting there, and that's what they need IMO. That's what we need... People we care about at all levels of the card, to make it feel more important, bigger, loaded with stars, however you want to say it... For a while there, felt like there were people up on top of the card, and everyone else was just a bunch of talents to job to Cena, Orton, etc. Now, I have at least one tag team that is interesting "Hell No", which I expect isn't going to last the rest of the year, but PTP is under rated right now, I think that last skit shows a bit of promise (at least for Titus). People like Jericho, Wade, Miz, etc... All playing in the midcard makes the upper card feel stronger.

[Teh_Showtime]

I like the ranking order, or whatever you want to call it... Supporting Actor's I guess would be better?

 

Anyways yeah, I also felt he was a little over rated. Don't get me wrong, I think he's way above average on the mic, but that's the only place he really impressed me.

 

What my point is though, I like having a midcard full of people that could potentially be in the main event, makes the whole roster feel stronger. I remember when people like Savage and Steamboat were sitting there, and that's what they need IMO. That's what we need... People we care about at all levels of the card, to make it feel more important, bigger, loaded with stars, however you want to say it... For a while there, felt like there were people up on top of the card, and everyone else was just a bunch of talents to job to Cena, Orton, etc. Now, I have at least one tag team that is interesting "Hell No", which I expect isn't going to last the rest of the year, but PTP is under rated right now, I think that last skit shows a bit of promise (at least for Titus). People like Jericho, Wade, Miz, etc... All playing in the midcard makes the upper card feel stronger.

 

The problem is that they are only in the midcard because of all the part time guys being back. So yeah it seems great in theory but in May and June they are going to be trying to sell guys like Ziggler, Ryback, Sheamus, etc as big deals despite them looking like nothing but midcard players who can't realistically even touch the top tiers (who will only be Cena/Punk after everyone leaves). I don't think it matters to me because the roster is easily the most talented since early 2003 and everyone who is featured can have great matches, even Big Show did some of his best work ever recently against Sheamus (who is a total boss). I think the problem will be trying to retian casual fans who showed up in January-March and see guys like Orton/Sheamus/etc shoehorned into a midcard filler feud, but then trying to get them to stick around and buy PPVs where they will be in marquee matches.

 

Take a guy like Antonio Cesaro who was being one of he best US champions since Chris Benoit way back when. As soon as 2013 comes around he is just losing left and right to guys like Orton, Sheamus, Ryback, etc. Right at the time these fairwater fans come in they are introduced to him as pretty much a scrub compared to the top guys (who were also soon dwarfed in terms of importance). But once the PPV is over he will probably go back to winning more but the damage may have been done because not only do those casual fans not stick around for him (or others) but the normal fans that watch every week can't get invested into him when you see him losing 8 out of 9 matches. The same thing applies to Ziggler on an even greater scale because he WILL be the world champ and being featured heavily in the near future.

[djthefunkchris]

The problem is that they are only in the midcard because of all the part time guys being back. So yeah it seems great in theory but in May and June they are going to be trying to sell guys like Ziggler, Ryback, Sheamus, etc as big deals despite them looking like nothing but midcard players who can't realistically even touch the top tiers (who will only be Cena/Punk after everyone leaves). I don't think it matters to me because the roster is easily the most talented since early 2003 and everyone who is featured can have great matches, even Big Show did some of his best work ever recently against Sheamus (who is a total boss). I think the problem will be trying to retian casual fans who showed up in January-March and see guys like Orton/Sheamus/etc shoehorned into a midcard filler feud, but then trying to get them to stick around and buy PPVs where they will be in marquee matches.

 

Take a guy like Antonio Cesaro who was being one of he best US champions since Chris Benoit way back when. As soon as 2013 comes around he is just losing left and right to guys like Orton, Sheamus, Ryback, etc. Right at the time these fairwater fans come in they are introduced to him as pretty much a scrub compared to the top guys (who were also soon dwarfed in terms of importance). But once the PPV is over he will probably go back to winning more but the damage may have been done because not only do those casual fans not stick around for him (or others) but the normal fans that watch every week can't get invested into him when you see him losing 8 out of 9 matches. The same thing applies to Ziggler on an even greater scale because he WILL be the world champ and being featured heavily in the near future.

 

I totally disagree with parts of this, and can get behind other parts. Firstly, your win/loss point is moot, as I don't believe the casual fans pay as much attention to win/loss stuff as we do. Antonio beat Orton clean a couple of times, it's time for Orton to win a couple, unless you think Orton shouldn't be in the Main Event, in which I would disagree yet again.

 

I wasn't thinking of Sheamus, Orton, or Ryback to be honest, when I was talking about the mid-card. I think of them as in the ME, as well as Big Show (He can get into a tag team or something to dip down, but I like him staying up there). People like Mark Henry can stay somewhere in between like Wade and Antonio. Antonio is in a good place IMO, he can stay in between the ME and Midcard forever, and I'd be ok with that.... Unless all the sudden he shows me some huge charisma in his character, I'm not going to buy him for ME unless he's up against someone I do buy as ME. I love his ring work, but this is WWE, and Ring Work is only halfway there. Wade, Sheamus, Ryback, etc... All have that charisma that Antonio lacks... The Shield members have it as well.

 

You take away Brock, Rock, and Jericho, and you still have a huge talent pool... Fact is, outside of Jericho, it "feels" like people aren't really into Brock or Rock as much as say last year. It feels more like they are just trying to give them "respect" moreso then actually getting behind them. If not for Heyman, I really think there was no chance of the Lesnar/HHH feud having much interest at all (as an example).

 

I can't wait for Punk to win the streak, and go after Cena again (those two in the ring is just... yeah... I can't wait). I don't know how they are going to flesh that one out.

 

But yeah, I see your points if that's how you feel, I just don't see the casual fan seeing things in the same way you are. For example... Casual fans don't look at "Midcard" belts as lower talent, or punishment (which is how it seems quite a few look at it). If built right, every title on the show can look important, and I feel like that's what they are trying to do (although the Tag and Divas needs LOTS of help in that respect).

[Teh_Showtime]

My point has already been proven with ADR.

 

He spent the entire 2012 losing to Sheamus and then Orton. He turns face and hasn't lost a match in months, but nobody in the crowd cares his reactions are pitiful for what is supposed to be a world champion.

[CQI13]

Could it be he works better as a heel?

[djthefunkchris]

My point has already been proven with ADR.

 

He spent the entire 2012 losing to Sheamus and then Orton. He turns face and hasn't lost a match in months, but nobody in the crowd cares his reactions are pitiful for what is supposed to be a world champion.

Was just going to say this as well....

Could it be he works better as a heel?

 

He's very bland as a face, but I still like him... Liked him a lot more as a heel, when he was losing.

 

But even worse, IMO is The Miz. I really don't like him much at all as a face. He's just unlikable to me... but as a Heel I like him.

[Teh_Showtime]

I also agree that he is clicking much more as a face in terms of being watchable to me but he's just not over with the crowds. Last year he was just so stale as a heel and he had just came back from a 4 month injury.

[The Final Countdown]

But even worse, IMO is The Miz. I really don't like him much at all as a face. He's just unlikable to me... but as a Heel I like him.

Totally agree. It's funny, because his heel character was supposed to be an annoying jerk who grated on your nerves, but I find him far more annoying since turning face. He's intolerable.

[The Two]

Is it just me, or is the build for Punk - Taker awful?

 

First, Punk is playing dickish heel against Undertaker, he may as well wearing a sign round his neck saying, "I'm gonna lose," as that character doesn't make him look like any kind of threat and just telegraphs his inevitable defeat.

 

Second, they've decided to make the angle all about Paul Bearer's death which is just the worst kind of cheap heat. It's incredibly tasteless, regardless of whether his family signed off (same way the Lawler stuff was tasteless even if he was okay with it).

 

Third, the execution is terrible! It's so lifeless! Look at Raw: Taker promo, Punk promo, Ad break. No interaction, no tension, no heat. Promo, promo, ad break. Punk's promo had no connection to what Taker had just said, and Taker had no response to Punk. They may as well have showed the promos at different points in the show! They had nothing to do with each other! They didn't interact at all.

 

For the last several years, Taker's Mania angle has been one of the highlights and the big selling points of the card. This year, I don't care about this match at all because they're not even trying to make it interesting. I want to care, but it's just so BAD!

 

Here's another thing to think about: As they're clearly making this angle up as they go, what was the plan before Paul Bearer died?

 

As I see it, there are three options...

 

A) They had something better planned but scrapped it to do this shit instead.

B) They had no plan and were intending to just wing it, making it up as they went along.

C) They had an even worse plan and this is actually an improvement on their original idea.

 

I honestly don't know which I'd most hate to be true.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Is it just me, or is the build for Punk - Taker awful?

 

First, Punk is playing dickish heel against Undertaker, he may as well wearing a sign round his neck saying, "I'm gonna lose," as that character doesn't make him look like any kind of threat and just telegraphs his inevitable defeat.

 

Won't argue against your other points, but this one is a plus for me. It's a change from what we've seen for the last four years with the HHH/HBK sagas. The valiant crowd-pleasing warrior who goes against all odds to break the streak. There's a bigger matchup around which is enough for fans to be torn down the middle anyway(the ME). Besides that, who better to go with than the most effective heel in the WWE. Not many, if anybody at all can do what Punk does. He may not look all that threatening against Taker but it's a refreshing road and they'll pull out some good material, guaranteed. Of course the Paul Bearer schtick is highly debatable for what considers as good material(personally, I think Bearer would've wanted this) but they have lots to work with and can work the angle to great effect.

 

That said, I think it's sad this is the only match-up I'm anticipating for Mania.

 

Edit: Come on, who doesn't love Punk playing around with that urn like a football?

[lazorbeak]

For the last several years, Taker's Mania angle has been one of the highlights and the big selling points of the card. This year, I don't care about this match at all because they're not even trying to make it interesting. I want to care, but it's just so BAD!

 

Strongly disagree that this year's 'Taker build is worse than the last two. The build-up for those Triple H matches were somewhere between dull and awful.

[djthefunkchris]

Won't argue against your other points, but this one is a plus for me. It's a change from what we've seen for the last four years with the HHH/HBK sagas. The valiant crowd-pleasing warrior who goes against all odds to break the streak. There's a bigger matchup around which is enough for fans to be torn down the middle anyway(the ME). Besides that, who better to go with than the most effective heel in the WWE. Not many, if anybody at all can do what Punk does. He may not look all that threatening against Taker but it's a refreshing road and they'll pull out some good material, guaranteed. Of course the Paul Bearer schtick is highly debatable for what considers as good material(personally, I think Bearer would've wanted this) but they have lots to work with and can work the angle to great effect.

 

That said, I think it's sad this is the only match-up I'm anticipating for Mania.

 

Edit: Come on, who doesn't love Punk playing around with that urn like a football?

I loved the Paul Bearer imitation even more. "Undertakerrrrrrr" "UNDERRRRTAKERRR". That was just funny as hell.

 

Plus, there are already Punk chants going on. Pretty sure he's going to beat the streak. IF NOT, I'll be happy, as I'm one of those that don't ever want it to be beat.

[milamber]

Barrett, Natalya and The Usos all won on Main Event If it were Smackdown or Raw only Barrett would have a chance of winning.

[bigtplaystew]

Punk's been making me laugh witht he Taker promos. You think the HHH build was better? That's cool that's your opinion. But one more "We're the last of an era!" promo as they share the bill with The Rock, Jericho, Big Show, etc I was gonna literally set fire to something. HHH's approach to the Undertaker bored me. Punk's blatant disrespect and mockeries have entertained me.

[The Two]

Punk's been making me laugh witht he Taker promos. You think the HHH build was better? That's cool that's your opinion. But one more "We're the last of an era!" promo as they share the bill with The Rock, Jericho, Big Show, etc I was gonna literally set fire to something. HHH's approach to the Undertaker bored me. Punk's blatant disrespect and mockeries have entertained me.

Yes, that was better in so far as it made HHH look like he might win.

 

DJ, that promo was terrible! I have no idea how you can think this looks like a Punk victory. He's being a dickish heel who's gonna get his comeuppance. He's not posing a threat to Taker, he's being a petulant teenager who's getting to get the crap beaten out of him.

 

The idea of Taker retiring when he loses at Mania has been set up over the past couple of years. If you're going to end the streak, you need to have that be central to the plot. You have to build to it. This is not doing that.

 

Look, Punk being a heel is great. Having a heel against Taker is great, but this is such a pathetic, weak heel character they're giving Punk. There's a brilliant angle he could be running on the basis of, "I'm destroying all your dreams, I'm killing all your heroes, I'm shattering your illusions. I'll prove I'm better than everybody Taker's faced, I'm the Best in the World, the real living legend, and I'm going to kill the Undertaker forever by beating him at Mania." I say again, the idea of finishing Taker by ending the streak should be at the core. Because that's how you retire Taker: the streak ends, and then he's just gone.

 

Being a dick, doesn't make him look like a threat. Using Paul Bearer's death is the worst kind of cheap heat! It makes the babyface getting his revenge his punishing the heel all the more inevitable.

 

This could be such a good build, but it's just not. And that saddens me.

[crownsy]

Yes, that was better in so far as it made HHH look like he might win.

 

DJ, that promo was terrible! I have no idea how you can think this looks like a Punk victory. He's being a dickish heel who's gonna get his comeuppance. He's not posing a threat to Taker, he's being a petulant teenager who's getting to get the crap beaten out of him.

 

The idea of Taker retiring when he loses at Mania has been set up over the past couple of years. If you're going to end the streak, you need to have that be central to the plot. You have to build to it. This is not doing that.

 

Look, Punk being a heel is great. Having a heel against Taker is great, but this is such a pathetic, weak heel character they're giving Punk. There's a brilliant angle he could be running on the basis of, "I'm destroying all your dreams, I'm killing all your heroes, I'm shattering your illusions. I'll prove I'm better than everybody Taker's faced, I'm the Best in the World, the real living legend, and I'm going to kill the Undertaker forever by beating him at Mania." I say again, the idea of finishing Taker by ending the streak should be at the core. Because that's how you retire Taker: the streak ends, and then he's just gone.

 

Being a dick, doesn't make him look like a threat. Using Paul Bearer's death is the worst kind of cheap heat! It makes the babyface getting his revenge his punishing the heel all the more inevitable.

 

This could be such a good build, but it's just not. And that saddens me.

 

1st nothing about those triple H builds made anyone I ever talked to think he was going to win. The minute they refused to put hunter's career on the line, automatic taker victory in the second one. the only way to make that one in doubt would have been career vs. career, which they never committed to.

 

In the first one, no way was Hunter going to win when shawn wasn't allowed to win the previous two years. what purpose would that have served from a business standpoint?

 

2nd, this feud is 2 weeks old. I don't see how we can say punk is being shown as "not posing a threat to Taker, he's being a petulant teenager who's getting to get the crap beaten out of him" and leave it at that.

 

in the two weeks so far, he's cut a heel promo during a memorial ceremony to bearer and beat the ever living bejesus out of kane with the urn after dominating him (something heels his size aren't normally allowed to do) until taker played mind games with him, and had a decent skit out smarting taker with the Urn this week.

 

In what way has it been presented he doesn't have a chance of beating taker? Taker hasen't laid hands on him, at all, and yes taker used mind games to cost punk a match with kane, but who cares? That's what taker does nowadays, get in people's heads.

 

I mean, i guess you wanted punk to lay taker out with a chair or something? what would, in these first two weeks, show a heel as anything but cocky and arrogant heading into mania? Your not giving away a physical beatdown either way 3 weeks before the event.

 

I predict Punk will continue to outsmart taker's attempts to get his hands on him, and probably get a dominate beat down in on taker the week before mania so they can hype that "no one has dominated the dead man like that!!!" going into WM, where punk will lose in a match that is way, way better than it deserves to be at this stage in taker's career.

[bigtplaystew]

Using Paul Bearer's death is the worst kind of cheap heat!

 

I don't see that as "cheap" heat at all. It's incredibly risky and could have backfired but it's working like a charm. Saying "The people of (insert host city here) are all morons!!" is cheap heat. When Punk says, "You people never did anything great in your entire lives!!" That is cheap heat.

 

Taking a legendary figure in the wrestling industry and openly mocking him posthumously with your second most "over" full-time worker (even though he's heel) is NOT cheap heat in my opinion. It's irreverant, cocky, arrogant, and it's been blissfully appealing to my darker wrestling sensibilities.

 

Now, I have to say I agree with a nice chunk of your last post. HHH did in fact come off as more of a real threat to end the streak. At least in a keyfabe, suspension of disbelief manner of speaking. Punk's so obviously building "I wanna see Taker beat that guy up" heat but still, I personally am enjoying it myself.

[CQI13]

The Two, you're right, Punk will get hi comeuppance...but it won't be at the hands of Taker. As was pointed out before, with the kind of character Punk plays he'd milk that victory to the point that whoever beats him after will be a big deal. And again, it's two weeks old. Let it run its course, and let's see how it ends up. Maybe it flops. Maybe it doesn't.