The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[fullMETAL]

If i wanted to look like someone it would be Randy Orton (no homo) not John Cena.

 

also

 

Men and wrestling fans hate John Cena because WWE has been showing John Cena down our faces for 9 years, he is boring, lacks wrestling skills, hardly jobs to anyone (yes he's the top guy but he can easily say i can job).

 

I respect John Cena the man, but John Cena the wrestler needs to go away... So tired of seeing him run over every wrestler in the company just to add another title to his record to make the kids happy.

 

People have been CLAMORING for a Cena heel turn for the past 8 years, but what happens if that finally DOES happen? Do we suddenly start supporting him? Do we suddenly rally back behind him like people still did with Punk even though Punk was getting a nice hefty amount of boos in the SES and when he was feuding with Rock?

 

Think about this: people still got behind the idea of Hulk Hogan being heel as Hollywood Hogan the first time in WCW, but his heel turn came (relative to the situation, at least) out of NOWHERE, and he was still drawing quite a lot of fans, still pretty over, during his face run in WCW. It wasn't until the bloat of the nWo stable when people started getting tired of Hogan.

Whereas with John Cena, people started getting tired of him in about his 3rd month or so as WWE Champion (the first time), even though up to that tipping point, just about EVERYBODY was insanely hot for Cena both as a character and as an in-ring worker (I know I marked out huge when he won the US Title from Big Show at WM20 and popped when he debuted his Spinning Rims belt afterward).

I was still popping for him when he won the WWE Title from JBL at WM21...but a few months later...meh. Some sites attribute the sudden shift in support to his drafting to RAW, and I'd probably agree.

 

There were times afterward where I saw some great Cena matches (his title defense against Bobby Lashley, for instance; the triple threat for the belt against HHH and HBK too), but most of the time I was thinking "Why can't he be more like THAT Cena more often instead of the one the company's feeding to us?"

[Teh_Showtime]

People have been CLAMORING for a Cena heel turn for the past 8 years, but what happens if that finally DOES happen?

 

This is quite the simple answer. NOBODY KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN

 

That is what has been lacking in WWE for years on top of years. When Rock came back we KNEW he would eventually do the job for Cena. We KNEW he would win the title from Punk, we KNEW Cena would beat him for the title.

 

The biggest complaint about the product is that everything is stale and repetitive which is true. If the biggest part of this stagnation changed (obviously being Cena) it would cause so much change both gradual and immediate that it would actually be the first time in a very long time to keep most people guessing.

 

As an example; For YEARS they have built up new heels solely to feed them to the top face (90% of the time Cena) dating back to Umaga's undefeated streak, Edge's pity 2 week title reign, the entire Nexus and Wade Barrett, Dolph Ziggler, and some more minor examples.

 

Cena wouldn't stop being the focus of the company, but it would shift the mentality from superhero babyfaces to being based around one top heel like the HHH era of the early 2000s. Whether you like the prospect or not, the way that they go about giving Cena new opponents would be drastically different. As an example his opponents being babyfaces wouldn't start every feud by ambushing him.

 

In short it's the sense of unpredictability, just like those couple of months in 2011 that the CM Punk story brought (until Kevin Nash failed a physical and killed it)

[Jaysin]

I mean the ENTIRE samoan family. Rikishi, The Rock, Umaga, etc.

 

All the big names in that family compared to Owen, Bret, Stu, and I guess if you count Davey Boy. (seeing as none of the others really did anything in the US)

 

I guess I should say greatest family in American wrestling IMO. my apoligies. I would definitely put the quantity of the family over the Harts, seeing as there have been many great wrestlers.

 

The Rock isn't related to Yokozuna, Umaga, Rikishi, Roman Reigns or anyone in the family by blood or marriage.

 

The father of the Wild Somoans considered Peter Maivia a "blood brother" because of how close they were, but that doesn't make them related in the slightest.

[lazorbeak]

Think about this: people still got behind the idea of Hulk Hogan being heel as Hollywood Hogan the first time in WCW, but his heel turn came (relative to the situation, at least) out of NOWHERE, and he was still drawing quite a lot of fans, still pretty over, during his face run in WCW. It wasn't until the bloat of the nWo stable when people started getting tired of Hogan.

 

Fact-check time: Hogan was getting booed throughout the 90's, but especially by 95-96, as he had been doing the same shtick for over a decade by this point, give or take a black outfit:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tSEyBoUF68 That's the crowd reaction to babyface Hulk Hogan in 1995, months before the NWO angle had begun. So no, Hogan wasn't still "drawing a lot of fans," and the idea that his situation during this period is somehow totally different than Cena's now is just not true.

 

I think the key for a Cena heel turn would have to be that he would have to still be hated by "smart" fans that have hated him for the past 7-10 years. Hogan did that by politicking backstage and not putting people over. I think for Cena the key would be to do the exact same shtick he does now, but have him be a hypocritical egomaniac who never loses, instead of this weirdly boring guy that never loses.

[Rickymex]

I think the key for a Cena heel turn would have to be that he would have to still be hated by "smart" fans that have hated him for the past 7-10 years. Hogan did that by politicking backstage and not putting people over. I think for Cena the key would be to do the exact same shtick he does now, but have him be a hypocritical egomaniac who never loses, instead of this weirdly boring guy that never loses.

 

John Cena as the ultimate heel who demolishes EVERYONE.

[shawn michaels]

Smart fans will hate him forever, no matter what he does, because he was shove down our throats for nearly a decade. At this point we hate the man, there is nothing he couldo, including 50 heel turns that would change that.

 

And by the way, is his injury real?

[Stennick]

Smart fans will hate him forever, no matter what he does, because he was shove down our throats for nearly a decade. At this point we hate the man, there is nothing he couldo, including 50 heel turns that would change that.

 

And by the way, is his injury real?

 

So now you speak for all "smart fans" can I ask what exactly is a smart fan? I'd like to think I follow as much about whats going on as the next member of the IWC and I wouldn't dare say I'd hate any worker "forever" no matter what they did. I don't give a damn if Paul Roma comes back onto tv as long as he has an interesting, compelling character. To say you would dislike someone no matter how they were presented and no matter what they did truly shows how ignorant and short sighted those statements look to anyone with any sense of reality around them. You use the term "we" because it makes you feel better about some sort of personal, creepy, unnerving grudge that you have against this guy. However I think you'll find that if you took a poll on "is there anything John Cena can do to make you interested in him" I would imagine nearly everyone on this board would say "yeah sure if he did X or if he did Y I'd be into him again". So lets not pretend like you're not leading the loneliness of all the lonely crusades on this internet.

 

Don't use the excuse of "that will never happen". Raise your hand if you believed Hulk Hogan would honestly ever be in TNA. Raise your hand if you believed that Bruno Sammartino would be inducted into the Hall of Fame in his lifetime. Raise your hand if you ever believed for a second that CM Punk would go on to become one of the biggest stars in the WWE. Raise your hand if you believed for a moment that the WWE would present Daniel Bryan vs. CM Punk as a main event, pay per view draw. Wrestling is FULL of things that you don't see coming, couldn't predict, and would have never guessed. So don't cop out and say "yeah well what I meant was that because its the WWE I know they would never LET him do anything that I would be interested in". As much as people complain about the company guys like Cesero, Punk, Bryan, The Shield, Dolph Ziggler are all being pushed as main eventers sometime or another in the last year. So lets not pretend like the WWE isn't capable of doing anything that you would take enjoyment out of because if that was the case then it really would be the stupidest thing in the world for you to watch and support a company that literally brings you not even the slightest amount of joy. So if this same company is capable of doing what I just mentioned plus countless more things that I've left out I think its fair to say that they could discover a way to make John Cena into a different character if the need arose. So saying that the WWE would never do anything with Cena you would enjoy and thats why you'll never like the guy is a cop out excuse that you shouldn't use.

[Teh_Showtime]

I would also like to ask somebody to transcript Cena's recent promos to Ryback, or just listen to them.

 

They are typical heel "Im the champion and Im better than you" promos that are associated with HHH and Flair. In what world does a babyface hype a title match with a monster by telling him with a blown leg he is still better than said opponent with perfect health?

[UkWrestleFan]

I like to think WWE are actually being really smart with Cena. It's like they're pushing Cena as a mega-face intentionally 'cos they know it'll generate heel heat.

 

However, they don't have to worry about impacting merch sales because he hasn't done anything that are going to make the kids or women hate him.

[Teh_Showtime]

quite frankly I think all of the talk about Cena only being on top for merch reasons is BS.

 

CM Punk was the first person in years (since he became WWE champion in 05) to outsell Cena in merch (including DX even) and that didn't change anything at all relating to Cena overshadowing everyone. Zack Ryder cracked the top 10 merch sellers and he was rarely on TV and what does the company do to him? That's a rhetorical question because we saw them bury him to the point of no return.

 

That's without even getting into the facts of heels actually selling mountains of merchandise such as DX and the NWO.

[milamber]

Cesaro vs Kofi - Main Event highlights

 

Unique superplex from Cesaro, dead-lifting Kofi from the outside apron. And Cesaro pulling one of Kofi's dreadlocks out after the match was a WTF moment!

[shawn michaels]

So now you speak for all "smart fans" can I ask what exactly is a smart fan? I'd like to think I follow as much about whats going on as the next member of the IWC and I wouldn't dare say I'd hate any worker "forever" no matter what they did. I don't give a damn if Paul Roma comes back onto tv as long as he has an interesting, compelling character. To say you would dislike someone no matter how they were presented and no matter what they did truly shows how ignorant and short sighted those statements look to anyone with any sense of reality around them. You use the term "we" because it makes you feel better about some sort of personal, creepy, unnerving grudge that you have against this guy. However I think you'll find that if you took a poll on "is there anything John Cena can do to make you interested in him" I would imagine nearly everyone on this board would say "yeah sure if he did X or if he did Y I'd be into him again". So lets not pretend like you're not leading the loneliness of all the lonely crusades on this internet.

 

Don't use the excuse of "that will never happen". Raise your hand if you believed Hulk Hogan would honestly ever be in TNA. Raise your hand if you believed that Bruno Sammartino would be inducted into the Hall of Fame in his lifetime. Raise your hand if you ever believed for a second that CM Punk would go on to become one of the biggest stars in the WWE. Raise your hand if you believed for a moment that the WWE would present Daniel Bryan vs. CM Punk as a main event, pay per view draw. Wrestling is FULL of things that you don't see coming, couldn't predict, and would have never guessed. So don't cop out and say "yeah well what I meant was that because its the WWE I know they would never LET him do anything that I would be interested in". As much as people complain about the company guys like Cesero, Punk, Bryan, The Shield, Dolph Ziggler are all being pushed as main eventers sometime or another in the last year. So lets not pretend like the WWE isn't capable of doing anything that you would take enjoyment out of because if that was the case then it really would be the stupidest thing in the world for you to watch and support a company that literally brings you not even the slightest amount of joy. So if this same company is capable of doing what I just mentioned plus countless more things that I've left out I think its fair to say that they could discover a way to make John Cena into a different character if the need arose. So saying that the WWE would never do anything with Cena you would enjoy and thats why you'll never like the guy is a cop out excuse that you shouldn't use.

 

Yeah...this is all wrong. First of all I WILL NEVER LIKE JOHN CENA, PERIOD! I AM ENTITLED TO THAT! I don't care if they turn him into a lifetime jobber. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD THAT THEY CAN DO WITH HIM THAT MAKES ME LIKE HIM! PERIOD!

 

Then, your logic is faulty, you assume I like all of those things you listed as being good things the WWE is doing just because you do, or more people do. I couldn't care less if the WWE is pushing the shield to main event, for example. I don't hate them, but I couldn't care less if they are having the Jesus push, that is not what makes me tune in. Then you assume that everyone thought Bruno Samartino would never be inducted, or that Hulk Hogan would never be on TNA, etc. A lot of those things I saw as things possible to happen, just like I imagined that one day Bret would return to WWE tv. Was I sure? No, but it's wrestling, I know what today is the thruth is tomorrow's absolute lie, and vice-versa. I also know that no matter what they do to Cena, I will never like him, follow him, or have the slightest interest in him, because I hate him as much as I hate my soccer team's biggest rivals. And you should stop acting like an arrogant prick that marks out for the WWE big time and thinks only his opinion is valid. You like the guy? Good for you. Did I over react by speaking in the plural? Maybe. I'll give you that much. But one thing is for sure, no matter how much heel turns he may do, I will never be interested in him and I'm sure that in this world, I am not the only one. So if you want me to stop putting my opinion as something that everyone takes into account and follows, you should do the same.

 

And don't start with the "WWE is pushing Ziggler, etc, etc, so despite all the critics their product is interesting", blah blah. Their product is boring, predictable and repetitive. It doesn't mean it's the worst thing in the world, or that I won't watch, but it has many flaws, and you can't really deny that, since a lot of people complains about it. Tone your tone down, dude, you are not the owner of truth. I'm done with this discussion, because we've been on this road 1000 times, and I know that if one of us doesn't stop responding, the discussion will never end. So i'm done with this discussion. Have a nice day, sir!

 

Ps: We can agree that we will never agree about Cena, that's what always happens in these discussions, so why don't you just stop commenting my posts about him? I will never change my opinion and you will never change yours. I actually think that you are a smart guy and do respect your opinions, except about this subject. So, let's not start a multi page discussion that will end as always, with us agreeing to disagree.

[bigtplaystew]

And by the way, is his injury real?

 

Wrestling would lie to us now, would it?

[mitsukaikira]

You know, sm82, sometimes you sound really reasonable and honest and other times you sound like a petulant child. This is one of the latter times.

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah...this is all wrong. First of all I WILL NEVER LIKE JOHN CENA, PERIOD! I AM ENTITLED TO THAT! I don't care if they turn him into a lifetime jobber. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD THAT THEY CAN DO WITH HIM THAT MAKES ME LIKE HIM! PERIOD!

He was talking more about you saying that's how all Smart Marks feel. He even asked what that is exactly, because he feels he is one, but doesn't have your same thoughts.

 

IMO, there is no such thing as a Mark if your over 10 years old. No one believes (Pro) Wrestling is a real sport.

Then, your logic is faulty, you assume I like all of those things you listed as being good things the WWE is doing just because you do, or more people do. I couldn't care less if the WWE is pushing the shield to main event, for example. I don't hate them, but I couldn't care less if they are having the Jesus push, that is not what makes me tune in. Then you assume that everyone thought Bruno Samartino would never be inducted, or that Hulk Hogan would never be on TNA, etc. A lot of those things I saw as things possible to happen, just like I imagined that one day Bret would return to WWE tv. Was I sure? No, but it's wrestling, I know what today is the thruth is tomorrow's absolute lie, and vice-versa. I also know that no matter what they do to Cena, I will never like him, follow him, or have the slightest interest in him, because I hate him as much as I hate my soccer team's biggest rivals. And you should stop acting like an arrogant prick that marks out for the WWE big time and thinks only his opinion is valid. You like the guy? Good for you. Did I over react by speaking in the plural? Maybe. I'll give you that much. But one thing is for sure, no matter how much heel turns he may do, I will never be interested in him and I'm sure that in this world, I am not the only one. So if you want me to stop putting my opinion as something that everyone takes into account and follows, you should do the same.

I can raise my hand to all the things he said as well. Seen them all coming way before they actually happened.

 

For the record, I don't think anyone here "marks out for the WWE big time".

And don't start with the "WWE is pushing Ziggler, etc, etc, so despite all the critics their product is interesting", blah blah. Their product is boring, predictable and repetitive. It doesn't mean it's the worst thing in the world, or that I won't watch, but it has many flaws, and you can't really deny that, since a lot of people complains about it. Tone your tone down, dude, you are not the owner of truth. I'm done with this discussion, because we've been on this road 1000 times, and I know that if one of us doesn't stop responding, the discussion will never end. So i'm done with this discussion. Have a nice day, sir!

You're mixing up your own thoughts as if they are fact, and I think that's where most of the debates come from when dealing with you. English is your second language, and I know this, so I'll point it out again here.

 

When you say "Their product is boring, predictable and repetitive." You are stating it as if that is fact for anyone watching it. This is an opinion, not a fact. Just like a movie you might feel is great, can get horrible reviews, that doesn't mean you didn't enjoy it and find it unpredictable, unrepetitive, and unboring.

Ps: We can agree that we will never agree about Cena, that's what always happens in these discussions, so why don't you just stop commenting my posts about him? I will never change my opinion and you will never change yours. I actually think that you are a smart guy and do respect your opinions, except about this subject. So, let's not start a multi page discussion that will end as always, with us agreeing to disagree.

He definitely made it clear that he was debating you about you including others in your opinion. In other words, he didn't say YOUR opinion might change. Just that you including the IWC or Smart Fans in total agreement with you, he felt that was wrong being a member.

[shawn michaels]

You know, sm82, sometimes you sound really reasonable and honest and other times you sound like a petulant child. This is one of the latter times.

 

 

 

I am a reasonable and honest person, but i get upset when people adress me in a patronizing tone, anyone would be upset with that. Maybe that was not his intention, but that was how it looked like to me. I actually like Stennick and i have said multiple times that i think he's smart and respect what he has to say, but toning down sometimes, wouldn't hurt him. With that said, yeah i dont speak for all the IWC, that came out wrong,bu I will always dislike Cena.

[Stennick]

You can dislike Cena all you want. I really am starting to think he like robbed your family of Christmas or something.

 

However let me make this short. You said that Cena has been shoved down OUR throats so WE will never like him. You said "Smart" fans will never like him.

 

I'm saying that you can't speak for an entire group of people and that the only person I know for sure that will never like the guy no matter what is you. And that you shouldn't group yourself together with a ton of people when the only person I've ever seen on these boards that says they will NEVER like John Cena is you.

 

Its ignorant and short sighted to lump yourself together with a group of people just for the sake of making yourself feel like you're part of a larger movement. I'm telling you take a poll ask people here if there is even a chance they could like John Cena and the overwhelming amount of them will say "sure I'm sure he could do something".

 

So its your right not to like Cena but its not my right to point out what a petulant child you're sounding like?

[Rickymex]

Then, your logic is faulty, you assume I like all of those things you listed as being good things the WWE is doing just because you do, or more people do. I couldn't care less if the WWE is pushing the shield to main event, for example. I don't hate them, but I couldn't care less if they are having the Jesus push, that is not what makes me tune in. Then you assume that everyone thought Bruno Samartino would never be inducted, or that Hulk Hogan would never be on TNA, etc. A lot of those things I saw as things possible to happen, just like I imagined that one day Bret would return to WWE tv. Was I sure? No, but it's wrestling, I know what today is the truth is tomorrow's absolute lie, and vice-versa. I also know that no matter what they do to Cena, I will never like him, follow him, or have the slightest interest in him, because I hate him as much as I hate my soccer team's biggest rivals. And you should stop acting like an arrogant prick that marks out for the WWE big time and thinks only his opinion is valid. You like the guy? Good for you. Did I over react by speaking in the plural? Maybe. I'll give you that much. But one thing is for sure, no matter how much heel turns he may do, I will never be interested in him and I'm sure that in this world, I am not the only one. So if you want me to stop putting my opinion as something that everyone takes into account and follows, you should do the same.

 

I am a reasonable and honest person, but i get upset when people adress me in a patronizing tone, anyone would be upset with that. Maybe that was not his intention, but that was how it looked like to me. I actually like Stennick and i have said multiple times that i think he's smart and respect what he has to say, but toning down sometimes, wouldn't hurt him. With that said, yeah i dont speak for all the IWC, that came out wrong, but I will always dislike Cena.

 

Always is quite a strong word.

[shawn michaels]

Always is quite a strong word.

 

 

 

Always. Guaranteed. When i hate something it's for life. And when i talked about today's truth being tomorrow's lie, i ment in wrestling.

 

I wont even bother to answer Stennick. Someone that thinks I am the only person in the world to hate or even dislike Cena, no matter what he does, is clearly short sighted. And i would be careful with the adjectives you used, i dont want to enter the realm of insults. End of discussion.

[Slim Jim]

Okay, you got me, SM82, my curiosity is sufficiently high that I've gotta ask...

 

Why do you hate Cena so much?

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't, you can't, you won't always, he doesn't deserve to be hated, or any other kind of judgemental/preachy subtext. I'm just curious about how he can have generated so much hatred from you that it is absolutely, categorically irreversible.

[Rickymex]

Always. Guaranteed. When i hate something it's for life. And when i talked about today's truth being tomorrow's lie, i ment in wrestling.

 

I wont even bother to answer Stennick. Someone that thinks I am the only person in the world to hate or even dislike Cena, no matter what he does, is clearly short sighted. And i would be careful with the adjectives you used, i dont want to enter the realm of insults. End of discussion.

 

I have to agree with Stennick on this. The fact that you're saying that you hate something for life says a lot.

[akujy]

I agree with SM82 on this one. Stennick could have said the things he said without using the tone he did. Shawn was man enough to admit he shouldn't have said "all the IWC." Stennick is never man enough to admit he talks to people like the petulant guy he is. SM82 is not alone. I hate Cena and i know lots of people that also do. I go to wrestling forums daily and see a lot of people that hate him. What does that say about those people? Nothing, except the fact they hate him. Stennick acted like a douche. Admit it and move on.

[Teh_Showtime]

John Cena is the most controversial superstar in WWE history iirc

 

You know with all of those controversy causing incidents like...like um winning that one time.

[Stennick]

I agree with SM82 on this one. Stennick could have said the things he said without using the tone he did. Shawn was man enough to admit he shouldn't have said "all the IWC." Stennick is never man enough to admit he talks to people like the petulant guy he is. SM82 is not alone. I hate Cena and i know lots of people that also do. I go to wrestling forums daily and see a lot of people that hate him. What does that say about those people? Nothing, except the fact they hate him. Stennick acted like a douche. Admit it and move on.

 

I didn't ask SM82 to apologize for anything let alone being absurd. I'm not denying that the IWC "hates" John Cena. Or the majority of them do. What he said that sparked the entire conversation was that he was using terms like "shoved down OUR throats so WE will never like him NO MATTER WHAT" see the capitalized part was the part I had a problem with.

 

He already admitted he shouldn't have spoken for the "IWC" and really in 2013 what does that term even mean anymore? Anyway the point is yes TONS of people hate John Cena but my point was and IS that if you ask those guys "how would you fix John Cena's character" less than one percent of them would say "there is nothing you can do to make me like JOhn Cena" and as far as I can tell SM82 is the only guy in the world that has gone on record saying that no matter what he does SM82 will hate Cena.

 

He didn't say "I don't think there is anything the WWE will do to make me like him" he say no matter WHAT. So unless you're saying that even if they called you on the phone and said "what would you like to see happen with John Cena" you would tell them to stick it you'll hate the guy forever no matter what. Then you clearly don't understand the argument.

[Rone Rivendale]

No doubt there are alot of opinions on this board about Cena. So let's skip personal opinions and just look at one fact:

 

A bunch of people here have stated their OPINION that Cena never jobs. That Cena always wins. That Cena holds everyone down. Here is a FACT, as shown on The Internet Wrestling Database. http://www.profightdb.com/winlossrecord/john-cena-350.html

 

John Cena has only won 67% of his matches in the WWE. He has only won 59% of his matches on PPV.

 

So Cena never loses? In FACT he has lost 152 T.V. or PPV matches in his career.

 

In comparison to someone else people said was in a similar situation: Hulk Hogan won 79% of his matches in the WWF. 64% on PPV overall in WWF/E and TNA.

 

Opinions are just that, opinions. The facts say Cena is not as SUPER as people make him out to be. He doesn't hold people down. He jobs as much as any other long time main event guy in the long and storied history of professional wrestling.