The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

[alden]

Yes i do believe jordan lives a what is the pc term for it now a day? I think it would work as jordan would not make a joke out of it.

[PhenomenalPat]

SPOILER ALERT!

 

Hulk Hogan will step back into the ring for the March 8th TNA Impact! It'll be Hulk Hogan & Abyss -vs- Ric Flair & AJ Styles

[jesterx7769]

Another shot-work storyline, given Jordan's rumored (is it just rumored?) predilections... If it was done well, I'd have no issue with it, really. But I think its a tough kind of storyline to do well...

 

it isn't rumored, the whole thing really came to light with pictures him kissing guys on his myspace

[brashleyholland]

it isn't rumored, the whole thing really came to light with pictures him kissing guys on his myspace

 

Fair play to him...I think we all agree that the best characters in wrestling are an extension of someones real personality, so as long as they don't turn him into some horrendously camp homosexual, I'm willing to run with it.

[alden]

Fair play to him...I think we all agree that the best characters in wrestling are an extension of someones real personality, so as long as they don't turn him into some horrendously camp homosexual, I'm willing to run with it.

 

That is why i think it would work. I don't see jordon willing to make a joke out of his life style. Just as i don't see kanyon willing to play a over the top homosexual charactar. I would love to see a bad ass wresting who just happens to be bi. could work.

[PeterHilton]

That is why i think it would work. I don't see jordon willing to make a joke out of his life style. Just as i don't see kanyon willing to play a over the top homosexual charactar. I would love to see a bad ass wresting who just happens to be bi. could work.

 

Not to sound completely insensitive, but I honestly don't think that sounds realistic.

 

Orlando's sexuality is his business. But in the world of wrestling, especially in a fed like TNA, his personal preferences won't be dealt with class or dignity or even basic common decency.

 

Him being bisexual is one thing. His on-air character is something completely different,

 

This is going to be treated as a joke and for shock value.

[brashleyholland]

Not to sound completely insensitive, but I honestly don't think that sounds realistic.

 

Orlando's sexuality is his business. But in the world of wrestling, especially in a fed like TNA, his personal preferences won't be dealt with class or dignity or even basic common decency.

 

Him being bisexual is one thing. His on-air character is something completely different,

 

This is going to be treated as a joke and for shock value.

 

I agree that there's no way in hell that he's going to be a bad ass wrestler who just happens to be gay or bi. This is wrestling after all; nobody is expecting anything particularly 'high-brow' from it.

 

Lets face it, the majority of wrestling fans are about as ready for a gay/bi face character as 1800's America was for a black President.

 

I guess what I'm hoping is that the character wont be some prancing stereotype - "Ooooooh, you can give me a piledriver *anytime* wink-wink". I think a 'sexual predetor' type character could work really well and would allow him to play of his orientation to make people uncomfortable, without chasing men round with a bottle of oil begging to be greased up :-p

[Slagaholic]

It can be done for both shock value, a joke, and not offensively.

 

If TNA is to hope to keep wrestling fans they have no chance of surviving. They need to create new fans, this is a shot at a different demographic (not just gay) and will cause people to watch it, and thus generate new fans. Right now TNA is thinking "no publicity (outside of steroids) is bad publicity."

 

Maybe I'm a bit too hopeful, and I'm completely wrong.

[Self]

Maybe it's just because I'm not American, but I don't see the problem with a bad ass gay character. Sure, it'll be hard to get over at first, but how will wrestling audiences learn to evolve if wrestling promotions don't teach them? Wrestling shouldn't be waiting for the fans to be 'ready' and following trends. It should be setting them. When I was growing up, 'gay' was the biggest insult in the world. The epitome of wrong. There were a few positive gay role models on TV, but none on the shows that my age group watched. If wrestling had one bad ass gay (or bi) character who wasn't made out to be a prancing fruitcake, maybe things would have been different. Maybe we'd have been more tolerant.

 

Although, sadly, I think you're all right in saying TNA and WWE wouldn't have the patience or subtlety to handle such a character. I maintain that in other hands, it could and should be done.

[Slagaholic]

Maybe it's just because I'm not American, but I don't see the problem with a bad ass gay character. Sure, it'll be hard to get over at first, but how will wrestling audiences learn to evolve if wrestling promotions don't teach them? Wrestling shouldn't be waiting for the fans to be 'ready' and following trends. It should be setting them. When I was growing up, 'gay' was the biggest insult in the world. The epitome of wrong. There were a few positive gay role models on TV, but none on the shows that my age group watched. If wrestling had one bad ass gay (or bi) character who wasn't made out to be a prancing fruitcake, maybe things would have been different. Maybe we'd have been more tolerant.

 

Although, sadly, I think you're all right in saying TNA and WWE wouldn't have the patience or subtlety to handle such a character. I maintain that in other hands, it could and should be done.

This is why I want Rob Terry to be his "partner"

[brashleyholland]

This is why I want Rob Terry to be his "partner"

 

Oh god, I can see it now...

 

"Oh, so *that's* why they call you 'Big Rob'...honey you can 'invade' me anytime..."

[Slagaholic]

Both just scored wins over guys higher in the card, plus with Terry separating from the Invasion you get an immediate feud that isn't contrived.

[lazorbeak]

Ugh, wasn't the bisexual OJ idea considered and rejected circa Smackdown 2005? Yup, wikipedia confirms OJ pitched the idea of him, Trinity, and some dude he knows as a bisexual angle but WWE future endeavored him. Jeez, OJ, got any other ideas besides "hey what if my gimmick was that I occasionally sleep with my bro?" Seriously I have a great gimmick for OJ: He dates a white woman and then MURDERS her. So edgy and relevant. Also he wrestles in black gloves. Then he runs over Joe in his Bronco.

 

Maybe it's just because I'm not American, but I don't see the problem with a bad ass gay character. Sure, it'll be hard to get over at first, but how will wrestling audiences learn to evolve if wrestling promotions don't teach them? Wrestling shouldn't be waiting for the fans to be 'ready' and following trends. It should be setting them. When I was growing up, 'gay' was the biggest insult in the world. The epitome of wrong. There were a few positive gay role models on TV, but none on the shows that my age group watched. If wrestling had one bad ass gay (or bi) character who wasn't made out to be a prancing fruitcake, maybe things would have been different. Maybe we'd have been more tolerant.

 

Although, sadly, I think you're all right in saying TNA and WWE wouldn't have the patience or subtlety to handle such a character. I maintain that in other hands, it could and should be done.

 

First, no, it's never been the job of wrestling to set trends. Ever. Wrestling has always been a pretty reactionary business. The faces always reflect the values of the fans, not the other way around. If they don't, the crowd will treat them like heels (die, rocky, die). It's a business dependent on selling what the crowd wants to pay for, not what's good for them if they'd open their minds.

 

Second, a "gay" bad-ass just wouldn't ever work, unless the guy was so buried in the closet the fans had no idea (maybe if the promotion had a large gay audience, since faces reflect the fans). Wrestling is largely spectacle based: there are certain identifiers people see and immediately think "hey this guy is a tough bastard" and there are identifiers people see and they think "hey this guy is probably gay." The two are such a fundamental disconnect (in the average person's mind, at least) that it's basically impossible to play a character even implied to be homosexual without getting a lot of heat. See: Adrian Adonis, Goldust, Too Much, or Chuck & Billy for details. Since there's some amount of homo-eroticism in wrestling anyway, it's important for the fans to recognize a wrestler isn't gay so that they can more easily identify with them. How many times do young wrestling fans have to defend the notion that two men fresh out of the shower grappling in swimsuits is totally not homosexual? The gay wrestler makes a liar out of that kid, and the kid hates the wrestler for it. The wrestling fan already has to explain away Hogan's mustache (and yellow tights), Shawn Michaels coming out to "Sexy Boy" and posing in Playgirl, and Justin Bradshaw wearing chaps without pants. How much does it muddy the waters if one of those guys is gay?

 

Because wrestling is market-based and so reliant on visual identifications, I don't think you're going to see a successful out of the closet babyface in a major promotion. Challenging viewer expectations is really not the job of professional wrestling. It's the job of critically acclaimed premium channel cable shows.

[Self]

You have points. Not ones that sway me a massive amount, but several solid points. I do disagree with the idea that "Challenging viewer expectations is really not the job of professional wrestling. It's the job of critically acclaimed premium channel cable shows." Personally I believe that pro wrestling could and should be striving to be on par with the sophistication of those shows.

 

As for the gay thing. I'm not saying it would be easy. I'm not saying it would definitely work. I'm not even saying the reward is worth the risk. However, I'd like to see it attempted.

 

Back on topic, PhenomenalPat's spoiler astounds me. Ridiculous.

[Slagaholic]

Self, I know you don't know me, but I love you.

[Hyde Hill]

You have points. Not ones that sway me a massive amount, but several solid points. I do disagree with the idea that "Challenging viewer expectations is really not the job of professional wrestling. It's the job of critically acclaimed premium channel cable shows." Personally I believe that pro wrestling could and should be striving to be on par with the sophistication of those shows.

 

As for the gay thing. I'm not saying it would be easy. I'm not saying it would definitely work. I'm not even saying the reward is worth the risk. However, I'd like to see it attempted.

 

Back on topic, PhenomenalPat's spoiler astounds me. Ridiculous.

 

On OJ lets wait and see but this reeks of Bisschoff so can't go down the sophisticated route.

 

On the other spoiler at leasts its in a tag which is the right way to use him if you want to use him that way.

[CQI13]

I'm surprised people aren't blaming Russo for that OTT storyline.

[cappyboy]

Yes, I am exaggerating. And yes, factors like the name change and that the #3 spot is no longer as important or big are involved. But I'm exaggerating because I feel like the fact that the Nasty Boys have been utterly irrelevant in the wrestling business for well over a decade is being relatively ignored.

 

 

And I definitely sympathetize. If this were like 1995 and you were talking about Chief Jay Strongbow, I might even agree with you. Much as I liked the guy as a little kid. The thing there is how relevant has the wrestling business in general been over that decade period? It's shrunk mightily. Look at where WCW was shown in 2000. They were on TNT and TBS. Both stations that were regular parts of the basic package we all got as cable customers. TNA as number 2 is not in such a fortunate position. Being on Spike, some of us get them in our basic packages and others see them looking down the hill at us from the gated community that is digital. And RoH being on HDnet is even more likely to be in the gated digital community than Spike is. Syndication has pretty well died off which means less reach for aspiring number 3's. If the business were in a greater position of strength, I'd take it more seriously that the relative importance of the Nastys was being ignored. But as things stand it doesn't feel as drastic. I hate having to say that because on a better landscape, you'd be 100% right. But facts are stubborn things and beggars can't be choosers. Hopefully, this'll all be water under the bridge come the summer. If the Nastys are still around when the next school year starts, you can expect my perspective to be shifting dramatically.

[justtxyank]

Even though TNA is the number 2 company in America, they are not the equivalent of WCW, even in its dying days.

[thommohawk]

Do u like trying to start arguments really you keep saying the same stuff even after people have told you why what you are saying is wrong so just post no more if you think your always right please. I mean this is a unbiased fourm just cause someone dosn't agree with doesn't mean you jump on the border line insulting them. OK? You got? Good

 

Promo time; I am always right, and what you just said given the negative energy and arrogance in your post it's smacks just a little of hello pot, I'm kettle. Well kettle, pot doesn't care, just stop talking and pour the damn tea already.....

 

@ cappy boy, on a serious note I hear what you're saying and I can assure you that I'm always chilled on internet forums it's just people mistake a rant or tirade or hell even specific reasons for opinion as being irate or something except I never get angry on forums lol, I don't take them seriously half of the time because there's more important things in life and I have a little something called perspective. Hence my promo above to whoever that was lol. But in all seriousness I have to applaud you, because that is how you state an opinion. Rights and wrongs but above all, and this concept seems to be mostly wasted on forums, you stated what you said respectfully. So now I'm doing the same in kind.

 

If everyone did that then 8 out of 10 interweb "fights" just wouldn't happen, people wouldn't get banned anywhere near as often, and trouble makers and pot stirrers wouldn't have their favorite bone to play with.....

 

Even though TNA is the number 2 company in America, they are not the equivalent of WCW, even in its dying days.

 

You're right there, TNA isn't the equivalent of WCW even in it's dying days - TNA is a hell of a lot better. In my opinion. I can certainly see the similarities though. Tenay, Sting, Bischoff, Hogan, Russo, Southern wrestling company etc.

[CQI13]

I think what he meant was that WCW was BIGGER even its dying days.

 

And on the whole OJ thing, to paraphrase the late great Gary Hart:

 

You push who the people want to see, not who you want to push.

 

I personally don't see the point of that segment, even more if it becomes a storyline. But whatever.

[Hyde Hill]

Well Gary Hart bless his sole isn't completely correct there as in the current landscape of things it doesn't wholly work that way. Most people only know what they want to see after they see it so if you don't even give a guy/story time and or exposure who is to say?

 

Also if you want to build new stars interest at first is always lower (overness) and then by exposing them and then getting wins over established talent they get more over if they have the talent. And this is the central thesis of TEW and is what it mimics best and is the most true.

 

What Gary refers to is the territorial days where you could have two headliners go at each other for years and sometimes bing in "big" stars from other territories. Those days are over and dead.

 

If you follow that mantra too strictly TNA for instance would be all Hogan, Sting, Flair, Foley, 3D, Nash etc.

 

On a semi related note and what is true about that statement is you always have to book out of the marks perspective eg the audience you want to reach and I think that point is sometimes lost on these boards and what smarks always seem to forget. I consider this community mainly "educated" smart marks and that is a big difference.

 

On the size of TNA, bigger then the original ECW in its hayday in numbers but still a significant chunk smaller then WCW in its dying ones.

[cappyboy]

I think what he meant was that WCW was BIGGER even its dying days.

 

Indeed. So by extension, their midcarders may have been just midcarders. But because the stage was bigger, they were still better known and thus bigger stars than the midcarders in today's number 2, TNA. Ditto fairly recent signees a la Desmond Wolfe just jumping up to today's number 2 for that matter.

 

Guys like Wolfe and Pope clearly have the advantage in upside. If they don't do anything stupid, they should eventually be able to far exceed the Nasty Boys in name power as their achievements will be fresher. But they need to achieve at this level first. The opportunities are there. Wolfe and Pope and so on just gotta grab them.

[justtxyank]

You're right there, TNA isn't the equivalent of WCW even in it's dying days - TNA is a hell of a lot better. In my opinion. I can certainly see the similarities though. Tenay, Sting, Bischoff, Hogan, Russo, Southern wrestling company etc.

 

I wasn't talking about the product.

[PeterHilton]

Here's my take on OJ: if he were an established character who happened to be bi, then fine.

 

But if the defining aspect of his character is his sexuality and the way he uses it to his advantage or whatever, then the only way it works is if he's a feel. Because wrestling fans aren't going to 'root' for that.

 

And that actually works for a heel character btw. He'd be black Adrian Adonis or whatever.