The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

[Trashbear]

http://torch.cs.dal.ca/~seaboyer/misc/sarcasm_detector.jpg

 

Brother, you made me laugh out loud.

[LucianCarter]

Money for pay per view buys. RvD vs Hardy and RvD vs AJ are two of the bigger matches they can put on at this point. TV doesn't make a promotion much money. PPV does.

 

An often overstated case. In fact, not that many years ago, WWE was making MORE from TV than PPV. These days PPV is ahead again, but it's not so far ahead as to make TV meaningless.

[The Bus]

Self, I mean no disrespect here, but do you know any women? I only ask that question because the answer (to me, having been raised by and around 'em) is so painfully simple, and I'm sure any of the married guys here can attest to it.

 

They don't need a reason!

 

At least not one that we understand. That's what makes them interesting and oftentimes vexing, but rarely boring. They don't need a reason to do anything that they choose to do. Men, being largely simple, don't get that as readily because we at least have an excuse to fall back on. If we don't, we make one up!

 

Being married I have to agree with that statement 100%. Some **** just happens without any logical or apparent reason and with added drama.

[Moe Hunter]

First, "divas" don't tend to have body types that mirror the majority of the female audience so you wind up just supporting the traditional body image problem.

Yeah, whereas male wrestlers are perfectly representative of your average joe. Excuse me while I go grate some cheese on my abs...

 

Seriously though, I've never understood why it's such a big deal to have "realistic rolemodels" for women but not for men. Especially when we're talking about Entertainment. Who's the more appealing character in Zombieland - Woody Harrelson or the scrawny kid? Who would we rather be - Arnie or DeVito? Trish and Lita didn't have bodies mirroring the general populace, but do we seriously think no girls ever looked up to them as strong women they can aspire to be like in some way?

 

Not a dig on you Remi, just that whole societal pressure being applied where IMO it really doesn't belong.

[Self]

Self, I mean no disrespect here, but do you know any women?

 

Not enough it seems.

 

Seriously though, I've never understood why it's such a big deal to have "realistic rolemodels" for women but not for men. Especially when we're talking about Entertainment. Who's the more appealing character in Zombieland - Woody Harrelson or the scrawny kid?

 

Woody was cool, but I didn't care if he lived or died. I could relate to the kid, so I was emotionally invested in his sotry. I wanted him to win.

[Remianen]

Yeah, whereas male wrestlers are perfectly representative of your average joe. Excuse me while I go grate some cheese on my abs...

 

Seriously though, I've never understood why it's such a big deal to have "realistic rolemodels" for women but not for men. Especially when we're talking about Entertainment. Who's the more appealing character in Zombieland - Woody Harrelson or the scrawny kid? Who would we rather be - Arnie or DeVito? Trish and Lita didn't have bodies mirroring the general populace, but do we seriously think no girls ever looked up to them as strong women they can aspire to be like in some way?

 

For the same reason a dude can be 5'8, 300 lbs with a beer gut and still think he's dead sexy. Men aren't as susceptible to societal pressures with regard to body image as women are. Men aspire to be Bill Gates far moreso than Arnie or Woody Harrelson. Gee, I wonder why that is?

 

A man doesn't need to be physically attractive to be considered attractive or desirable. A man doesn't LOSE his attractiveness or desirability with age. Both of these things are the polar opposite to what women have to deal with. Sean Connery and Sophia Loren are around the same age (mid to late 70s). Who's considered more attractive and desirable? I'd wager there are far more men who would aspire to be like Connery than there are women who would aspire to be like Loren. Warren Buffett isn't the most physically attractive man in the world, but show of hands, how many men would switch places with him in a heartbeat?

[Linsolv]

I'm still behind the whole "Beth Phoenix" idea. She's attractive, sure, but she's built like a darned tank! For me, that's the ideal image for women in a performance art based on kicking butt.

 

Kong had the "tank" thing, but not as much the attractive thing.

 

As for "realistic role models," I'm sorry but that's not really going to factor in. Wrestling is centered around larger-than-life characters, which is why they have larger-than-life physiques. Now, should all the women look like strippers with implants to triple-Z but still weighing 120 lbs? No. That's a different kind of larger-than-life that I'm not a fan of. Except for Velvet Sky, but if it were a choice between more Beth's and fewer Velvet's, I'd be willing to take one for the team.

 

--

 

Incidentally, now that you mention it, the few times I've seen Hamada speak Japanese, she wasn't saying a whole lot. Like with the lock box challenge, I think her segment-closing line was something like (and you'll excuse me, my handle of Japanese is poor and my memory's not that great either) -- "I don't even know what they're talking about."

 

So it makes sense that they'd pretend she could only speak Japanese to hid the hilariously plain mic work.

[PeterHilton]

Do I want to see one that has under-developed characters and female wrestlers that though pretty can't wrestle a lick?

 

Or do I want to watch the ones that are not only hot (and has more variety then balloons + broomstick bodies), but can wrestle entertaining matches, AND have well developed personalities?

 

 

All in all, I agree with TommyDreamerFan. I'd like a Knockouts (or Divas) division filled with hot girls, developed personalities, decent wrestlers and variety. There was a time when TNA seemed to have this, but it's slipped through their fingers as of late. They were a big reason I watched the show. Although the arrival of RVD & Jeff just about makes up the lack of Kong & Gail

 

That's great but you guys are making the wrong comparison.

 

What would you rather see: a division filed with hot girls that's scarce on actual character and in-rin performance? Or a division with a bunch of great workers and developed characters, but the girls are shaped like pears and they have faces that looks like they were beaten with the proverbial ugly stick?

 

What do you pick in that situation? What would most fans?

 

Saying "Id rather have hot women who can do everything" is great. Thanks, Mr Obvious. But the crux of my point is that fans want to see hot women first and foremost, and their relative 'talent' is like the cherry on the sundae; appreciated but unnecessary.

 

Woody was cool, but I didn't care if he lived or died. I could relate to the kid, so I was emotionally invested in his sotry. I wanted him to win.

 

Self, I think you are a really, really different cat when it comes to wrestling fans. When we have these discussions about what fans will watch and are interested in, you should maybe excuse your own POV completely.

 

Because the vast majority of the people watching wrestling aren't as invested in character development and original storytelling as you are.

[alden]

The problem with tna women wrestlers like love is that she is actully talented when allowed to be. Is she an Akira Hokuto? No....but she is good. I would put her indy work on the same level as phoenix or gail kim. She is just eye candy right now and that is a shame.

[Self]

What would you rather see: a division filed with hot girls that's scarce on actual character and in-rin performance? Or a division with a bunch of great workers and developed characters, but the girls are shaped like pears and they have faces that looks like they were beaten with the proverbial ugly stick?

 

What do you pick in that situation? What would most fans?

 

Can I get half a roster of Hot & Inept and half of Ugly & Talented?

 

I won't speak for 'most fans' (nor should I, see below) but if I had to choose, I'd rather see Hot & Inept. I don't see what character development has to do with the choice though. That's 99% creative's job. It's the writer's fault, not the performer's.

 

Self, I think you are a really, really different cat when it comes to wrestling fans. When we have these discussions about what fans will watch and are interested in, you should maybe excuse your own POV completely.

 

No. I accept that my preferences and priorities are different to 'most wrestling fans', but I'm not going to ignore my POV because it's different. Opinion is all I give, to be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Remianen]

I'm still behind the whole "Beth Phoenix" idea. She's attractive, sure, but she's built like a darned tank! For me, that's the ideal image for women in a performance art based on kicking butt.

 

Kong had the "tank" thing, but not as much the attractive thing.

 

As for "realistic role models," I'm sorry but that's not really going to factor in. Wrestling is centered around larger-than-life characters, which is why they have larger-than-life physiques. Now, should all the women look like strippers with implants to triple-Z but still weighing 120 lbs? No. That's a different kind of larger-than-life that I'm not a fan of. Except for Velvet Sky, but if it were a choice between more Beth's and fewer Velvet's, I'd be willing to take one for the team.

 

Whether you believe it or not is immaterial. It doesn't change the fact that it's true. Besides, your taste is totally atypical. Do you think Beth plays an intimidating gimmick just because? She could never play the Melina/Maryse/Michelle McCool type of 'look how hot I am', because she's "too big" for that (in the eyes of the people who decide these things). For that matter, neither will Nattie. Beth is intimidating more than hot (in their eyes) so that's how she's portrayed. But just look back at her short stint in SHIMMER to see how she COULD be portrayed (in the 'look how hot I am' manner).

 

The problem with tna women wrestlers like love is that she is actully talented when allowed to be. Is she an Akira Hokuto? No....but she is good. I would put her indy work on the same level as phoenix or gail kim. She is just eye candy right now and that is a shame.

 

Um, sorry. Angel Williams isn't in the same league as Beth or Gail, as far as ring work goes. Has she improved a lot? Sure! But her ringwork is still on an Annie Social level. Luckily, she's not expected to do anything particularly stressing in TNA, so it's fine.

[cappyboy]

No. I accept that my preferences and priorities are different to 'most wrestling fans', but I'm not going to ignore my POV because it's different. Opinion is all I give, to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

Well said, Self. Some of my preferences and priorities could also draw the advice Brother Hilton gave you. But you can't throw out your POV in a broad-based argument just because it's maybe a bit fringe. Thinking outside the box is all well and good and it can be a good thing if you can back it up. But ultimately you know what you know and you like what you like. You try to step around that, your word slowly but surely starts counting for a lot less. Because then you're not coming from as authentic a place.

 

Whenever I give a perspective on something, I know there are probably folks who agree with me. But I'm not about to go around projecting how many agree with me or act like my thoughts are those of the monolithic "everybody". I can only ultimately speak for myself and that's all I claim to do. Just as you do, Self. It's one of the reasons I love reading your posts even when I disagree with them. Remi's our voice of reason, I like to think I'm one of the resident voices of balance and you're one of the group's visionaries. I get what Peter was trying to suggest and I'm sure it was coming from a place that meant well. But you bring an element to the table we need around here and I hope you never take Peter's advice on this one. You wouldn't be the same interesting Self if you did.

[Linsolv]

You're right, Remi. My taste is atypical, I guess...

 

Any suggestions other than Shimmer for proper women's wrestling? (I find the whole Shimmer setup of having all their DVDs take place over a matter of months to be confusing and difficult to handle..) Japan counts.

[PeterHilton]

No. I accept that my preferences and priorities are different to 'most wrestling fans', but I'm not going to ignore my POV because it's different. Opinion is all I give, to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

I"m sorry..that's not what I meant. I don't mean to ignore your POV.

 

Just that it's different enough that when you're giving your opinion that there are times that if a company is doing something to displease you they might actually be hitting the mark with the majority of their fanbase. And vice versa.

[Shmoe]

I love RVD, always marked hard for him since his heel turn back in '97, and I think he's a great choice to have as champion because you know he can still go. Still, I just wondered ...what the hell is up with the theme music he has in TNA? It's one of the worst I can remember hearing in the whole of professional wrestling. Give him 'Ass Man' for all I care, at least it wasn't some gang vocal shouting the name of his finisher at me. Jeeeeeeez.

[Hyde Hill]

That's great but you guys are making the wrong comparison.

 

What would you rather see: a division filed with hot girls that's scarce on actual character and in-rin performance? Or a division with a bunch of great workers and developed characters, but the girls are shaped like pears and they have faces that looks like they were beaten with the proverbial ugly stick?

 

What do you pick in that situation? What would most fans?

 

Saying "Id rather have hot women who can do everything" is great. Thanks, Mr Obvious. But the crux of my point is that fans want to see hot women first and foremost, and their relative 'talent' is like the cherry on the sundae; appreciated but unnecessary.

 

 

 

Self, I think you are a really, really different cat when it comes to wrestling fans. When we have these discussions about what fans will watch and are interested in, you should maybe excuse your own POV completely.

 

Because the vast majority of the people watching wrestling aren't as invested in character development and original storytelling as you are.

 

Now we are getting away from the original discusion, the fact remains that while WWE has the oppurtunity and in some cases even the talent to do both they chose just to go for eye candy. Both is best but since the E always just goes for Eye Candy and screw stories, wrestling and character they get away with it more because that is what they always do like Bigpapa and I pointed out.

[Trashbear]

I love RVD, always marked hard for him since his heel turn back in '97, and I think he's a great choice to have as champion because you know he can still go. Still, I just wondered ...what the hell is up with the theme music he has in TNA? It's one of the worst I can remember hearing in the whole of professional wrestling. Give him 'Ass Man' for all I care, at least it wasn't some gang vocal shouting the name of his finisher at me. Jeeeeeeez.

 

RVD's theme music was written and performed by a personal friend of his, Kushinator. It's been the intro music for his site for a while as well.

[Hyde Hill]

I love RVD, always marked hard for him since his heel turn back in '97, and I think he's a great choice to have as champion because you know he can still go. Still, I just wondered ...what the hell is up with the theme music he has in TNA? It's one of the worst I can remember hearing in the whole of professional wrestling. Give him 'Ass Man' for all I care, at least it wasn't some gang vocal shouting the name of his finisher at me. Jeeeeeeez.

 

As with Hardies theme blame RVD for that one as its the song he uses on his website and podcast and that he likes. You can blame TNA for letting him chose it himself like with Hardy though.

[Hyde Hill]

Well said, Self. Some of my preferences and priorities could also draw the advice Brother Hilton gave you. But you can't throw out your POV in a broad-based argument just because it's maybe a bit fringe. Thinking outside the box is all well and good and it can be a good thing if you can back it up. But ultimately you know what you know and you like what you like. You try to step around that, your word slowly but surely starts counting for a lot less. Because then you're not coming from as authentic a place.

 

Whenever I give a perspective on something, I know there are probably folks who agree with me. But I'm not about to go around projecting how many agree with me or act like my thoughts are those of the monolithic "everybody". I can only ultimately speak for myself and that's all I claim to do. Just as you do, Self. It's one of the reasons I love reading your posts even when I disagree with them. Remi's our voice of reason, I like to think I'm one of the resident voices of balance and you're one of the group's visionaries. I get what Peter was trying to suggest and I'm sure it was coming from a place that meant well. But you bring an element to the table we need around here and I hope you never take Peter's advice on this one. You wouldn't be the same interesting Self if you did.

 

What about me? What about Ra.... Hyde? lolz. Nah I get what you are trying to say its just important to seperate what you like and what you think and what you think the majority likes or thinks in discussions as long as that is clear then there is np.

 

For example I love your hatred for Anderson as its actually contrary to your general balanced nature hehe. But you do make it clear that its your opinion and give good arguments for it at the same time.

[Trashbear]

Anyway, let's get back to something on which we all agree:

 

Rob Terry is a big, untalented choad.

 

Also, he sucks.

[Moe Hunter]

I still believe the body image thing doesn't have much of a place in wrestling. If guys want to be old and rich, do we all look up to Vince McMahon and Donald Trump? Here's my thing - wrestlers are supposed to be athletes. So I'd like the majority of them (male and female) to be or at least be able to pass for athletes. You can have your sticks with balloons scattered about (not my thing, but as people say - it appeals to a key demographic), but ideally unless they can really put on a match they should stick to being managers or other on-screen non wrestling personalities.

 

 

BTW, making my way through Lockdown - started with the Angle/Anderson match. I liked it, though both instances of blood seemed early and not really important. Also, Angle gave Anderson TWO backdrops that looked pretty much exactly like the one Anderson gave Orton to get himself fired. Good lord the Moonsault was as good as everybody said! I really liked the story of the match (though still cringe every time Tenay says "warrior medal"). Stepping over Anderson to get out of the cage was great, as was the dick-stomp to make a point.

[Remianen]

You're right, Remi. My taste is atypical, I guess...

 

Any suggestions other than Shimmer for proper women's wrestling? (I find the whole Shimmer setup of having all their DVDs take place over a matter of months to be confusing and difficult to handle..) Japan counts.

 

For what it's worth, I'd do Beth well before I'd even look twice at Maryse so I share that opinion. But there are multiple studies that show many men are intimidated by women of a certain body type or look or disposition. It's kinda like how an assertive, confident woman is often viewed negatively ("bitch") but an assertive, confident man isn't.

 

And there are DVDs available from many of the shows run by joshi promotions (Wave, Ibuki, SPIRIT, NEO, etc). I'll dig up some links. I typically get mine from friends in Osaka and Okinawa.

 

I"m sorry..that's not what I meant. I don't mean to ignore your POV.

 

Just that it's different enough that when you're giving your opinion that there are times that if a company is doing something to displease you they might actually be hitting the mark with the majority of their fanbase. And vice versa.

 

For what it's worth Self, I have to do this exact thing. Back in 07, I explored the possibility of opening a women's promotion or investing in an existing one and during the due diligence process, my eyes were opened. Women's wrestling will never be mainstream in America (Canada's possible, but there's no real money to be made in Canada. Sad but true.) due to our cultural tendencies. That, along with mandatory roster turnover and a relative lack of a replacement pool (male wrestling school graduates outnumber females by 9 to 1, as of 2007), and it creates quite a bit of difficulty. (By mandatory roster turnover, I mean things like the moment a woman finds out she's pregnant, she can't be used in any physical roles due to insurance requirements/restrictions, as one example. So you lose that worker, for all intents and purposes, for a year or more).

 

Bottom line is, while there are millions of "hot girls", there are maybe a few dozen "hot girls who can go in the ring". The costs involved are also somewhat prohibitive given the possible revenue that can be realistically projected.

 

I still believe the body image thing doesn't have much of a place in wrestling. If guys want to be old and rich, do we all look up to Vince McMahon and Donald Trump? Here's my thing - wrestlers are supposed to be athletes. So I'd like the majority of them (male and female) to be or at least be able to pass for athletes. You can have your sticks with balloons scattered about (not my thing, but as people say - it appeals to a key demographic), but ideally unless they can really put on a match they should stick to being managers or other on-screen non wrestling personalities.

 

Moe, wrestling is visual, is it not? It's conveyed via media, yes? That makes it either a supporter of the status quo or an opponent of it. The status quo is 'women should look like this'. Those are the images that women (and worse, GIRLS) are bombarded with on a daily basis. I coached a girls basketball team. Several of the girls on the team dreaded (DREADED) puberty because "it's going to make me fat". I worked for a while with Emme (the plus size model) and saw several appearances she made talking to girls about this very issue. Right now, men are getting just a little taste of what women have to deal with ("Smiling Bob" ring a bell?). But it doesn't affect guys the same. Besides, they don't give specific numbers in those ads (women get the numbers with the dress size and bra size thing).

 

The issue is real and exists across all visual media. In fact, here's a test you can do to prove it (at least partially). Look at the body types of women in various media. You can tell almost immediately which demographic that ad or product is targeting. Rap videos have what kind of body type? Ads in magazines for rims have similar body type women. What demo(s) are being targeted? I'm not saying wrestling should buck that trend. What I'm saying is they're in a position to be diverse and choose not to be. Thus, they're going to lock out a large (and growing) portion of the available audience. That's okay if the current audience is growing at a decent rate and the status quo of the past remains the same.

 

But neither of those things is happening.

[cappyboy]

What about me? What about Ra.... Hyde? lolz. Nah I get what you are trying to say its just important to seperate what you like and what you think and what you think the majority likes or thinks in discussions as long as that is clear then there is np.

 

Exactly. Way to boil it down, Brother Hill.

 

For example I love your hatred for Anderson as its actually contrary to your general balanced nature hehe. But you do make it clear that its your opinion and give good arguments for it at the same time.

 

Thank you. I try to do what I can on this front. And I think it's especially important when you are coming from a minority position. If you're going to be a good contrarian, you gotta bring the meat so folks can see you're not just kneejerking or rejecting stuff out of hand. That way, even if you can't bring folks over to your side, you've at least contributed to the conservation. And in any even-handed crowd, get props for doing so.

[Hyde Hill]

Anyway, let's get back to something on which we all agree:

 

Rob Terry is a big, untalented choad.

 

Also, he sucks.

 

Yeah Abyss and Jarrett seemed the grandmasters of promo and wrestling compared to him lolz.

 

PS thanks Cappy.

[Linsolv]

For what it's worth, I'd do Beth well before I'd even look twice at Maryse so I share that opinion. But there are multiple studies that show many men are intimidated by women of a certain body type or look or disposition. It's kinda like how an assertive, confident woman is often viewed negatively ("bitch") but an assertive, confident man isn't.

 

And there are DVDs available from many of the shows run by joshi promotions (Wave, Ibuki, SPIRIT, NEO, etc). I'll dig up some links. I typically get mine from friends in Osaka and Okinawa.

 

Finding stuff's never been a problem of mine. Can't really say why, because it's really the only skill I've got that I never once tried to work on, but obscure stuff always seems to be within arm's reach.

 

I was mostly just asking for recommendations. But I'll look into Joshi.