Necessary Tweaks (In Your Opinion)

[Henk]

Really? That's bizzare. So you're missing rumble as well?

 

In my version, the order from left to right is:

 

Name, Age, Sex, Size, Contract, Amount, Expires, Dispos., Push, Technical, Rumble, Flying, Entertainment, Performance, Physical

[Adam Ryland]

Was the typo topic deleted or locked?

 

Anyway, WEXXV has stable named "The New Dawn" but in the bio of it says "F.E.A.R. was formed in 2008 by Senmatsu, Nagahama and Morioka, who at the time were all champions in WEXXV. Their alliance has continued even after losing the belts."

 

Make a separate thread for it in the Tech Support forum, all the previous ones were addressed.

[Kobe1724]

Unretire Charlize?

 

Just kidding... probably.

 

Honestly, aside from CVerse stuff the only tweak that I think would really add to the game significantly would be the ability to convince a worker to come out of retirement for X amount of time (right workers on your rosters, right money, right size, momentum etc.). ^_^

[Irish Wolf]

I mentioned CZCWs product briefly on the initial thoughts topic but since this is about tweaks and I found a something else with the product I'd like to see changed I figure I'll lay it out here for consideration.

 

CZCWs product changed, and mostly for the better I might add but the drop in Comedy without the corresponding raise somewhere else means that now there can be no tainted finishes. An increase in Traditional from Low to Medium will keep the performance bias of the product while also allowing for tainted finishes. Also although the face heel divide was set to none in '08 I always thought that was a mistake. It specifically talks about Jimmy P. turned on Donnie J. to become James Prudence. How can you turn on somebody if there isn't even a vague line of good and bad. I don't think they need a strong division just a medium one. As another example the promotion uses gimmicks and your main title holder is a Comic Book Hero, what does it matter if he's a super hero if there are no villains and with no face heel divide then the fans don't care about good guy and bad guy why should it matter that Fox Mask and Masked Cougar (who is the midcard title holder) are Super Heroes. It just seems very odd to me.

[Adam Ryland]

I mentioned CZCWs product briefly on the initial thoughts topic but since this is about tweaks and I found a something else with the product I'd like to see changed I figure I'll lay it out here for consideration.

 

CZCWs product changed, and mostly for the better I might add but the drop in Comedy without the corresponding raise somewhere else means that now there can be no tainted finishes. An increase in Traditional from Low to Medium will keep the performance bias of the product while also allowing for tainted finishes. Also although the face heel divide was set to none in '08 I always thought that was a mistake. It specifically talks about Jimmy P. turned on Donnie J. to become James Prudence. How can you turn on somebody if there isn't even a vague line of good and bad. I don't think they need a strong division just a medium one. As another example the promotion uses gimmicks and your main title holder is a Comic Book Hero, what does it matter if he's a super hero if there are no villains and with no face heel divide then the fans don't care about good guy and bad guy why should it matter that Fox Mask and Masked Cougar (who is the midcard title holder) are Super Heroes. It just seems very odd to me.

 

The face \ heel divide doesn't mean there aren't any faces or heels, it just means the promotion doesn't specifically recognise an "official line" between the two. As an example, think about the real-life UFC - they clearly don't have a face \ heel divide as they're a real sport, but you can clearly label some fighters as being babyface-like and some as being heel-like - obviously not to pro wrestling levels of caricature, but the concept is the same.

[infinitywpi]

Think of it this way: having no face/heel division means that if you have a lumberjack match, it's not obvious which lumberjacks are going to beat up on which competitor. Whereas with a strong divide, they go for the guy of the opposite alignment.

[foolinc]

The face \ heel divide doesn't mean there aren't any faces or heels, it just means the promotion doesn't specifically recognise an "official line" between the two. As an example, think about the real-life UFC - they clearly don't have a face \ heel divide as they're a real sport, but you can clearly label some fighters as being babyface-like and some as being heel-like - obviously not to pro wrestling levels of caricature, but the concept is the same.

 

Maybe I haven't watched enough if it, but I always thought that PWG was a perfect example of a promotion without a real true face/heel divide. Human Tornado had a huge feud with Chris Hero as a heel and was able to "turn face" by saying the following: "My Bad."

 

It's a totally different situation than the one you put out, but at the same time I think it works. In PWG there are faces and heels (just like in all of wrestling), but when it comes down to it, the fans really don't care who's who. They just want to see some good wrestling and some funny promos.

[jhd1]

Well, yea. What's your point?

 

Are you saying that the ninja gimmick is unsuitable for Ota? Because what you said is 'Ota doesn't work with a ninja gimmick,' which he does. If you meant that he doesn't make a good ninja then fair enough, I clearly misunderstood - though I am only trying to help. If you want a non-ninja image of Ota you could conceivably use any Japanese render - you only see his eyes anyway. If you've got either C-Verses '75 or '97 use a render from one of the characters not in the present day data, simple.

[Irish Wolf]

The face \ heel divide doesn't mean there aren't any faces or heels, it just means the promotion doesn't specifically recognise an "official line" between the two. As an example, think about the real-life UFC - they clearly don't have a face \ heel divide as they're a real sport, but you can clearly label some fighters as being babyface-like and some as being heel-like - obviously not to pro wrestling levels of caricature, but the concept is the same.

 

OK. If I can continue the conversation, mainly to clarify for myself if nothing else. UFC (I don't really watch it) doesn't really have gimmicks some of their characters are a little larger then life but they aren't really gimmicks. They have guys you hate and a guys you like and they aren't really the same for everybody but they don't have a line. A puro fed like BHOTWG or PGHW doesn't want gimmicks their workers come off as real fighters and thus I understand why the faces and heels don't really matter. But CZCW has characters and if they have turns they do in some way recognize the differences between faces and heels even if they don't mind seeing a face fighting a face, or a heel fighting a heel the audience knows that James Prudence is supposed to be a bad guy, he beat up his former friend and Donnie is supposed to be the good guy as he had the talked about feud with James over this fact. So I do believe that in some sense CZCW and CZCW audience recognize some kind of small line good guys and bad guys.

 

This will be the last I speak of it as I've been around awhile and I don't want to be one of those guys but I thought the topic deserved at least one follow up point.

[Antithesis]

I Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, of course, by no means am I an expert but I thought I'd try and help. You've only got about 200x the number of posts as I have!

 

 

Don't sweat the post count, he made all those posts getting lynched in Mafia games.

[Moe Hunter]

Don't sweat the post count, he made all those posts getting lynched in Mafia games.

 

Do Mafia game posts count now that it's a different part of the forum? They never did back on The Dog Pound, of course...

[Bigpapa42]

OK. If I can continue the conversation, mainly to clarify for myself if nothing else. UFC (I don't really watch it) doesn't really have gimmicks some of their characters are a little larger then life but they aren't really gimmicks. They have guys you hate and a guys you like and they aren't really the same for everybody but they don't have a line. A puro fed like BHOTWG or PGHW doesn't want gimmicks their workers come off as real fighters and thus I understand why the faces and heels don't really matter. But CZCW has characters and if they have turns they do in some way recognize the differences between faces and heels even if they don't mind seeing a face fighting a face, or a heel fighting a heel the audience knows that James Prudence is supposed to be a bad guy, he beat up his former friend and Donnie is supposed to be the good guy as he had the talked about feud with James over this fact. So I do believe that in some sense CZCW and CZCW audience recognize some kind of small line good guys and bad guys.

 

This will be the last I speak of it as I've been around awhile and I don't want to be one of those guys but I thought the topic deserved at least one follow up point.

 

Having a face/heel divide is essentially the promotion telling the fans who they should support and who they should dislike. They book around that - most matches have an obvious good guy and an obvious bad guy, as do most storylines. No divide might mean there are still some good guys and some bad guys, but the promotion isn't building around that difference.

 

The feud in question might have been build around a face-heel divide. But having done it for one or two storylines doesn't mean thats how the promotion predominently works.

[Jennie Bomb]

Edd Stone should be bisexual, dammit.

[foolinc]

Having a face/heel divide is essentially the promotion telling the fans who they should support and who they should dislike. They book around that - most matches have an obvious good guy and an obvious bad guy, as do most storylines. No divide might mean there are still some good guys and some bad guys, but the promotion isn't building around that difference.

 

The feud in question might have been build around a face-heel divide. But having done it for one or two storylines doesn't mean thats how the promotion predominently works.

 

Exactly, this is why I compared the promotion to PWG.

[mjdgoldeneye]

Are you saying that the ninja gimmick is unsuitable for Ota? Because what you said is 'Ota doesn't work with a ninja gimmick,' which he does. If you meant that he doesn't make a good ninja then fair enough, I clearly misunderstood - though I am only trying to help. If you want a non-ninja image of Ota you could conceivably use any Japanese render - you only see his eyes anyway. If you've got either C-Verses '75 or '97 use a render from one of the characters not in the present day data, simple.

 

But, the gimmick ISN'T suited to Ota. It says he doesn't have all the necessary requirements and it recommends you not use Ninja.

[Midnightnick]

Do Mafia game posts count now that it's a different part of the forum? They never did back on The Dog Pound, of course...

 

They count now yeah.

[Derek B]

They count now yeah.

 

No they don't.

 

Well... some of the old ones do for some reason, but posts made in the mafia forum don't count towards the overall post count these days, there are just some old threads that do count for some reason that I don't know.

[Midnightnick]

No they don't.

 

Well... some of the old ones do for some reason, but posts made in the mafia forum don't count towards the overall post count these days, there are just some old threads that do count for some reason that I don't know.

 

I could've swore they did, but I haven't played much since the forum move.

[Irish Wolf]

Having a face/heel divide is essentially the promotion telling the fans who they should support and who they should dislike. They book around that - most matches have an obvious good guy and an obvious bad guy, as do most storylines. No divide might mean there are still some good guys and some bad guys, but the promotion isn't building around that difference.

 

The feud in question might have been build around a face-heel divide. But having done it for one or two storylines doesn't mean that's how the promotion predominantly works.

 

Maybe this is the case although this seems to me like none and strong where does medium fit in. Wouldn't having characters that are essentially good and bad without telling people who to cheer for and making it focus on ring work so that Heel vs Heel and Face vs Face matches work be a Medium divide.

 

I just searched the help file for it but couldn't find a description of the divide. I searched by Face and Heel and lets just say that was hard but I also searched by divide and nothing. Maybe I'm missing it and if I am please tell me what page its on.

 

None - There are no good guys or bad guys. I find that except for CZCWs case apparently this also means no gimmicks as is the case with I believe all of the pure feds. If they have Gimmicks they're putting on a show and if their character is essentially a bad person by his gimmick then he is asking for the fans to root against him, thus instilling some kind of acknowledgment of faces and heels.

 

Medium - Gimmicks exist but in a far more shades of gray style. Good and bad aren't totalities and you'll find fans rooting for a heel who they like. Also allowing for face versus face and heel versus heel matches.

 

Strong - Good and Bad are finite. The good guys are good and their only job is to face off against the bad guys. Fans excect to see face versus heel matches but will crap on everythign else.

 

At least that's the way I always read it. And again I could be wrong.

[Derek B]

Maybe this is the case although this seems to me like none and strong where does medium fit in. Wouldn't having characters that are essentially good and bad without telling people who to cheer for and making it focus on ring work so that Heel vs Heel and Face vs Face matches work be a Medium divide.

 

I just searched the help file for it but couldn't find a description of the divide. I searched by Face and Heel and lets just say that was hard but I also searched by divide and nothing. Maybe I'm missing it and if I am please tell me what page its on.

 

None - There are no good guys or bad guys. I find that except for CZCWs case apparently this also means no gimmicks as is the case with I believe all of the pure feds. If they have Gimmicks they're putting on a show and if their character is essentially a bad person by his gimmick then he is asking for the fans to root against him, thus instilling some kind of acknowledgment of faces and heels.

 

Medium - Gimmicks exist but in a far more shades of gray style. Good and bad aren't totalities and you'll find fans rooting for a heel who they like. Also allowing for face versus face and heel versus heel matches.

 

Strong - Good and Bad are finite. The good guys are good and their only job is to face off against the bad guys. Fans excect to see face versus heel matches but will crap on everythign else.

 

At least that's the way I always read it. And again I could be wrong.

 

I've been trying to find a good way to phrase this... have been struggling.

 

But basically, the heel/face divide is a way of determining whether good guys and bad guys will face off against each other. A strong divide will make it so that it's 99% good vs bad... a medium divide might be at 75%... and no divide would just not care, so logically that's about 50%.

 

Gimmicks are the way you define the character or persona a worker is playing. If you are a serious company who treats wrestling like a sport, then you don't do much about gimmicks. But there will still be guys who get booed or cheered. It's not generally relevant towards the match making process, but it still happens. Face/heel divide is none as a result, gimmicks are rare.

 

Similarly, if you are booking a comedy type promotion like a CHIKARA then you have ludicrous over the top characters... but in terms of match making it's everyone against everyone else. The heel/face divide isn't taken into account so much in booking, just the fun stuff and general interactions between people, but some of their characters are clearly still good or bad. It could be argued to be a medium divide or no divide, but I'd go with no divide.

 

CZCW falls more into the second camp. The people have characters but the actual match making process doesn't take them into account.

[Irish Wolf]

OK so then face heel divide isn't so much whether or not the fans care about faces and heels. But whether they care if a booking is made with people of the same disposition fighting each other. So they're going to mostly boo the heels and cheer the face because of their character but they aren't going to care if two superheros fight or two arrogant heels fight they'll just cheer more for the one they like more and book more for the one they hate more.

 

Also you say when the face heel divide is none gimmicks are rare yet every worker in CZCW has a gimmick. And gimmicks are required by the rest of the promotions product.

[Derek B]

OK so then face heel divide isn't so much whether or not the fans care about faces and heels. But whether they care if a booking is made with people of the same disposition fighting each other. So they're going to mostly boo the heels and cheer the face because of their character but they aren't going to care if two superheros fight or two arrogant heels fight they'll just cheer more for the one they like more and book more for the one they hate more.

 

Also you say when the face heel divide is none gimmicks are rare yet every worker in CZCW has a gimmick. And gimmicks are required by the rest of the promotions product.

 

Rare in a promotion with no heel/face divide that treats wrestling like a SPORT. CZCW is an athletic product but it's not treating wrestling like a sport. That's a HUGE difference.

[foolinc]

I've been trying to find a good way to phrase this... have been struggling.

 

But basically, the heel/face divide is a way of determining whether good guys and bad guys will face off against each other. A strong divide will make it so that it's 99% good vs bad... a medium divide might be at 75%... and no divide would just not care, so logically that's about 50%.

 

Gimmicks are the way you define the character or persona a worker is playing. If you are a serious company who treats wrestling like a sport, then you don't do much about gimmicks. But there will still be guys who get booed or cheered. It's not generally relevant towards the match making process, but it still happens. Face/heel divide is none as a result, gimmicks are rare.

 

Similarly, if you are booking a comedy type promotion like a CHIKARA then you have ludicrous over the top characters... but in terms of match making it's everyone against everyone else. The heel/face divide isn't taken into account so much in booking, just the fun stuff and general interactions between people, but some of their characters are clearly still good or bad. It could be argued to be a medium divide or no divide, but I'd go with no divide.

 

CZCW falls more into the second camp. The people have characters but the actual match making process doesn't take them into account.

 

Derek do you follow CHIKARA at all? CHIKARA has a ton of comedy and a lot of surreal moments, but without a doubt the best booked promotion and has been since 2006. In CHIKARA ludicrousness takes a backseat to logical booking.

[Derek B]

Derek do you follow CHIKARA at all? CHIKARA has a ton of comedy and a lot of surreal moments, but without a doubt the best booked promotion and has been since 2006. In CHIKARA ludicrousness takes a backseat to logical booking.

 

I would love to follow them a lot more than I have been... behind their wacky levels of awesomeness is the kind of storytelling that makes me a very happy panda. The whole CHIKARA Special thing with Chris Hero and the wealth of stuff that spawned has made me a fan for life.

 

But sadly, I don't know as much about them as I wish I did nor is it easy for me to follow them.

 

In addition to my previous posts too... some product types care more about a face/heel divide than others too. Mainstream is all about the divide... pure is not. Steering the divide in the right direction will ensure you get the most from your roster.

[Irish Wolf]

In addition to my previous posts too... some product types care more about a face/heel divide than others too. Mainstream is all about the divide... pure is not. Steering the divide in the right direction will ensure you get the most from your roster.

 

I agree with this and CZCW has medium mainstream and Cult at Heavy (and I was under the impression that cult was one of the entertainment styles along with Traditional, Mainstream, Comedy and Risque) This is also one of the things tha makes me feel pushing the face heel divide to medium (not Strong) suits what the product and worker bios seem to insinuate CZCW is.