Official NFL Discussion Thread

[LoganRodzen]

I always thought the JaMarcus Russell pick was par for the course for Oakland (not a very good one). Vince Young parlayed a championship game into that pick as well. Another atrocious QB.

 

Yeah, 'cause an 'atrocious' QB could do this: 99-yard drive comeback against Arizona for the win last season in 2:37. I give the guy loads of credit. The state of TN crapped all over him during the 'suicide problem' and everyone considered him a bust. He's turned the team around mid-season twice in his career. Once as a rookie and this past season as well.

 

It disappoints me when people use Russell, Vick, and other scrambling QBs as an example as to why they're no good. Vince Young has won football games - plain and simple. He hasn't been put in the best situations every time and he overcomes them. He'll overcome all of the critics this coming season as well. Our offensive line is one of the best, we have an amazing RB and a slew of young receivers. Our defense is slowly dying due to age, but we have good defensive coaches to balance that out with other young talent.

 

Comparing Russell to Young is complete BS. Russell has been rookie of the year? Russell has gone to the pro bowl? Russell has constructed ANYTHING that resembles a 4th quarter comeback? A winning season? Stats that resemble an NFL QB? I'd prefer if you NEVER make that comparison again.

 

Sure, he has a cannon, but absolutely no direction at all. I'd take Flacco's arm over his any day of the week... which is underrated. At one of the drills before the draft two years ago, threw the ball over and passed the 'longest possible distance'. I remember it like it was yesterday: Colt Brennan's arm was the worst and Flacco made my mouth drop.

[Stennick]

Actually, Russell's big thing was his physical stats. He was a "specimen" with a "rocket arm". Your memory is faulty.

 

He was not going to be the number one pick. EVERYONE was beaming over Brady Quinn as the top QB in the draft until after Jamarcus won the Sugar Bowl. After he led LSU to a win Al Davis and all of the pundits became infatuated with this guy as a "leader and a winner". Before Jamarcus won that champoinship he was not going number one in the draft. So no my memory isn't faulty. I'm not saying he wasn't a speciman with a rocket arm but all of the "pundits" or talking heads or whatever you want to say about them all had Quinn above Jarmarcus before the Bowl Games that year. Once Russell won LSU that game everyone started talking about his leadership skills and his winning tradition overcoming everything and winning LSU that game. When him and Quinn went head to head and Jarmarcus won that win vaulted him to the number one spot.

 

In the case of Russell and Quinn it was a moot point. Russell had the much valuable "intangible, leadership and winning tradition" while Quinn had the statistics, records and traditional pocket passing style. Neither end of this wound up really matter as both have accomplished zero in their runs so far. That being said I think Quinn would do well as the QB of Denver much more so than the Browns.

[GatorBait19]

if you're jimmy clausen you really hate McNabb right now lmao probably lost 30 million gaur. plus another 50 million

 

I wonder how the Panthers handle his contract, maybe low base pay with high reward?

[moon_lit_tears]

if you're jimmy clausen you really hate McNabb right now lmao probably lost 30 million gaur. plus another 50 million

 

I wonder how the Panthers handle his contract, maybe low base pay with high reward?

 

 

I love McNabb he went to my fav team! *Glee*

[GatorBait19]

Perhaps, but Rich Eisen brought up a good point. Where does Clausen fit in when/if John Fox gets fired? If he doesn't beat out Matt Moore (and the odds are against him doing that given the gap in practical, real NFL experience), he probably won't play due to the lame duck coach playing CYA.

 

New England is hittin' home runs though. Brady's got a VERY good target now.

 

i cant wait to see how J. Cunningham does for them, not as talented as Dunlap but still very productive.

 

Also they got two steals in Spikes and TE Aaron H.

 

Aaron dropped for the fact of not going to the combine, and Spike was considered a top 15 pick last year and 1st rounder this year, but a horrible 40 time dropped him, I still expect both of them to produce for that team

[GatorBait19]

I have an interesting question. Falcons got money back from Vick, Lions got money back from Charles Rogers, and the court decided that the teams should recoup some money.

 

 

So here is the question, isn't it about time some of the judges hold these teams responsible?

 

Hey ATL didn't have to give VICK that entire bonus, but they did and they paid the price, Rogers was a rookie who busted for the Lions and never finished.

 

My whole thing is, if you are going to give players this big money, who have to weigh the cons to it, these two teams didn't and judges helped them, but IMHO believe it's time for the judges to hold the teams responsible for this

[Remianen]

I have an interesting question. Falcons got money back from Vick, Lions got money back from Charles Rogers, and the court decided that the teams should recoup some money.

 

 

So here is the question, isn't it about time some of the judges hold these teams responsible?

 

Hey ATL didn't have to give VICK that entire bonus, but they did and they paid the price, Rogers was a rookie who busted for the Lions and never finished.

 

My whole thing is, if you are going to give players this big money, who have to weigh the cons to it, these two teams didn't and judges helped them, but IMHO believe it's time for the judges to hold the teams responsible for this

 

You're not taking into account the contract's terms. That's probably what won the cases for the teams. Both Vick and Rogers committed crimes (or offenses) that got them into hot water. For example, remember when Kellen Winslow Jr blew out his knee in the motorcycle accident a few years back? Or when Roethlisberger suffered an injury from riding a motorcycle? There are clauses in every standard NFL contract that makes it a violation to even participate in some "dangerous" recreational activities. Guess what riding a motorcycle is? Or an ATV or going bungee jumping or riding in a racecar or any of a myriad of things that teams let slide oftentimes. The personal conduct statute (that has recently been heavily enforced by this commissioner) has existed in the standard NFL contract since the last CBA was ratified. Prior to that, it had to be added to most contracts (and was only typically included in the high dollar ones). That's why Big Ben is being called on the carpet for "a pattern of questionable judgment". It's not just THIS case, it's the previous cases of him doing stupid stuff that endangers his playing career.

 

Thus, a player whose conduct violates part of the contract's term, is in breech and thus can be sued for it. That's why a 'guaranteed' contract is only such if the player adheres to the terms of said contract. If you do, you earn all the money detailed in said contract. If you don't, the contract might be able to be voided without you getting your money. Rogers and Vick got what they deserved. The Lions and Falcons should not be forced to pay a player when they blatantly violate the terms of the contract.

 

Oh yeah and an awesome EAT IT, OLD CHUMP for Al Davis: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Source-JaMarcus-Russell-is-tipping-the-scales-at-300-pounds.html

 

Damn shame when your quarterback weighs about as much as your (former) left tackle.

[GatorBait19]

You're not taking into account the contract's terms. That's probably what won the cases for the teams. Both Vick and Rogers committed crimes (or offenses) that got them into hot water. For example, remember when Kellen Winslow Jr blew out his knee in the motorcycle accident a few years back? Or when Roethlisberger suffered an injury from riding a motorcycle? There are clauses in every standard NFL contract that makes it a violation to even participate in some "dangerous" recreational activities. Guess what riding a motorcycle is? Or an ATV or going bungee jumping or riding in a racecar or any of a myriad of things that teams let slide oftentimes. The personal conduct statute (that has recently been heavily enforced by this commissioner) has existed in the standard NFL contract since the last CBA was ratified. Prior to that, it had to be added to most contracts (and was only typically included in the high dollar ones). That's why Big Ben is being called on the carpet for "a pattern of questionable judgment". It's not just THIS case, it's the previous cases of him doing stupid stuff that endangers his playing career.

 

Thus, a player whose conduct violates part of the contract's term, is in breech and thus can be sued for it. That's why a 'guaranteed' contract is only such if the player adheres to the terms of said contract. If you do, you earn all the money detailed in said contract. If you don't, the contract might be able to be voided without you getting your money. Rogers and Vick got what they deserved. The Lions and Falcons should not be forced to pay a player when they blatantly violate the terms of the contract.

 

Oh yeah and an awesome EAT IT, OLD CHUMP for Al Davis: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Source-JaMarcus-Russell-is-tipping-the-scales-at-300-pounds.html

 

Damn shame when your quarterback weighs about as much as your (former) left tackle.

 

thanks for explaining that, I figured it had to be that, but wasn't for sure.

 

I just always thought Rogers was cut because he couldn't stay away from injuries and the law problems came afterwards, plus Rogers failed a drug test all four years in college, so it's kind of like you should have known type of thing

 

And that is odd, early this offseason it was talking how Russell lost all this weight and know he is huge, hell move him to O-Line or D-Line see if he can play there:D

 

 

Also I know people say Leaf was the biggest bust ever, but i'd have to go with Russell, with the contract and all the hype. Leaf's biggest problem (besides being a diva) was injuries, Russell's biggest problem is weight.

 

I hope he bounces back.... but i doubt it

[Remianen]

Also I know people say Leaf was the biggest bust ever, but i'd have to go with Russell, with the contract and all the hype. Leaf's biggest problem (besides being a diva) was injuries, Russell's biggest problem is weight.

 

I would disagree.

 

You're only thinking money. But remember, the Chargers had to trade UP to get the #2 pick to take Leaf. What did they trade to move up ONE slot from #3 overall to #2? Two 1st rounders, a second rounder, and two players (one of which was Eric Metcalf, who was coming off a Pro Bowl season). I kinda think Leaf's cost was far more than Russell's.

 

Also, I think Ryan Leaf's problem was he liked to throw the ball to the wrong team a little too much.

[CQI13]

Yeah, 'cause an 'atrocious' QB could do this: 99-yard drive comeback against Arizona for the win last season in 2:37. I give the guy loads of credit. The state of TN crapped all over him during the 'suicide problem' and everyone considered him a bust. He's turned the team around mid-season twice in his career. Once as a rookie and this past season as well.

 

It disappoints me when people use Russell, Vick, and other scrambling QBs as an example as to why they're no good. Vince Young has won football games - plain and simple. He hasn't been put in the best situations every time and he overcomes them. He'll overcome all of the critics this coming season as well. Our offensive line is one of the best, we have an amazing RB and a slew of young receivers. Our defense is slowly dying due to age, but we have good defensive coaches to balance that out with other young talent.

 

Comparing Russell to Young is complete BS. Russell has been rookie of the year? Russell has gone to the pro bowl? Russell has constructed ANYTHING that resembles a 4th quarter comeback? A winning season? Stats that resemble an NFL QB? I'd prefer if you NEVER make that comparison again.

 

Sure, he has a cannon, but absolutely no direction at all. I'd take Flacco's arm over his any day of the week... which is underrated. At one of the drills before the draft two years ago, threw the ball over and passed the 'longest possible distance'. I remember it like it was yesterday: Colt Brennan's arm was the worst and Flacco made my mouth drop.

 

You're right...I don't like him (or the vast majority of scrambling QBs). Just remember, people say "Well Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl." -- Doesn't make him a good QB in my opinion. Maybe atrocious was too strong a word for Vince, but '08 (I think) was weak.

[Comradebot]

Yeah, 'cause an 'atrocious' QB could do this: 99-yard drive comeback against Arizona for the win last season in 2:37. I give the guy loads of credit. The state of TN crapped all over him during the 'suicide problem' and everyone considered him a bust. He's turned the team around mid-season twice in his career. Once as a rookie and this past season as well.

 

It disappoints me when people use Russell, Vick, and other scrambling QBs as an example as to why they're no good. Vince Young has won football games - plain and simple. He hasn't been put in the best situations every time and he overcomes them. He'll overcome all of the critics this coming season as well. Our offensive line is one of the best, we have an amazing RB and a slew of young receivers. Our defense is slowly dying due to age, but we have good defensive coaches to balance that out with other young talent.

 

Comparing Russell to Young is complete BS. Russell has been rookie of the year? Russell has gone to the pro bowl? Russell has constructed ANYTHING that resembles a 4th quarter comeback? A winning season? Stats that resemble an NFL QB? I'd prefer if you NEVER make that comparison again.

 

Sure, he has a cannon, but absolutely no direction at all. I'd take Flacco's arm over his any day of the week... which is underrated. At one of the drills before the draft two years ago, threw the ball over and passed the 'longest possible distance'. I remember it like it was yesterday: Colt Brennan's arm was the worst and Flacco made my mouth drop.

 

I'll give you that Young is better than Jemarcus Russell (who, after last year, makes me wonder if he even deserves to be in the NFL, let alone starting the year AS a starter!) Seriously, Russell, you struggled to break 40% completions every game.

 

However, I still don't see VY as more than a "solid" second stringer at best. Yes, he had an awesome drive against a crappy secondary in a mostly two minute drill. David Carr also is a co-holder of the most consecutive completed passes in a single game record, but we all know Carr really and truly blows. For every moment like he had in that game, Young as another two or three that leave you scratching your head or outright laughing. Don't get me wrong, he's improved, but his accuracy is still sorely lacking and he still throws far too many picks (though at least last year he managed to throw a couple more TDs than interceptions for a change of pace. Let's see if he can keep doing that.) I'm eternally grateful my Texans were wise enough to grab Mario Williams as Young (and Reggie Bush) have yet to show they truly warranted a top 10 pick in the draft.

 

I will admit I don't particularly care for the guy, having grown up in Houston and having followed his career since he was still going by Vincent. He had a massive ego and was generally a prick, and it's clear his personality problems caused some serious trouble in his pro career a couple years ago, as its why he got benched.

 

On the topic of scrambling QBs in general... yeah, its hard to get by sometimes when you're known as one, simply because you're likely to get lumped into the group of scramblers who rely heavily on their ability to run and can't throw worth crap. And really, that's the problem: far too many QBs who are blessed with speed rely too heavily on it and never develop the proper throwing skills, and a pro QB will NEVER be truly great unless he can throw the ball. Being able to scramble should be viewed as a bonus, not as the defining feature of a quarterback. Obviously Donovan McNabb is the prime example, but he isn't alone in the category of "Good QBs that can also run!" Off the top of my head, I'd say Randall Cunnigham, Jeff Garcia, Fran Tarkenton, Steve Young and even Doug Flutie were all guys who were (potentially is in Garcia's case?) deadly passers that were also a threat to tuck the ball and run if needed, and showed how effective you can be if you rely on throwing first and only use your legs as a back-up plan.

 

I do think that had Vick NOT gone and murdered a bunch of dogs he really and truly could've developed into another truly great scrambling QB. He was showing great strides in improvement and development, but I think his time away from the game might've reversed too much of that progress for him to ever realistically reverse. Guess we'll see!

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

Vince made big strides last year, the Titans are one of the few teams who has shown a willingness to take a project QB like McNair or Young and develop them over a period of time. The only reason VY played so early on in his career is that Collins was awful the first year he came in, and the fans clamored for a change. His rookie year he got by on his playmaking skills and a lot of luck and parlayed that into an 8-2 record.

 

From there you really can't just hand the reins back to a guy who went 0-6, so he kept playing even though he wasn't really ready and teams were able to expose his flaws. Sitting again the year after really helped him get his head right and restore his confidence.

 

When he got the ball this year he was ready- I watched every Titans game this year and he's twice the QB he was 2 years before, but people already formulated opinions on him. I can see why most opinions didn't change since his stats weren't exactly gaudy (maybe because we had a 2,000 yard rusher!) and he already pulled that routine during his rookie year but if you watched, he was much better. I'll say it now that with Britt, Cook, Gage and CJ out of the backfield we'll have one of the top 5 offenses in the NFL next year. We'll probably still be in the 10-15 range yardage wise because we're a running team first but the Titans WILL be able to throw the ball.

 

Not to mention that VY has the 6th best winning % among starting NFL QBs in the league.

[CQI13]

My biggest issue with Vince (and players like him), is that, as stated above, they rely too much on the running and not on the passing.

 

Taking away 2008 (where he only started in 1 game), in 2 of his 3 years he's had a completion percentage under 60%.

 

Vick has never had a season where he completed more than 60%.

 

Of the ones mentioned, Young was stellar as a passer; Tarkenton strung together several 60%+ at the end of his career (possibly when he couldn't run as much), Cunningham had a few here and there, Garcia was very efficient (mostly over 60%), and McNabb has also strung together quite a few 60%, and was always around there (save his rookie season).

 

Vince was almost there (58% last year), but he hasn't done enough for me to say "WOW, he's a great QB." If Vince can amass numbers comparable to Cunningham (who the stats show was always meandering around 60%), so be it.

[Remianen]

My biggest issue with Vince (and players like him), is that, as stated above, they rely too much on the running and not on the passing.

 

Taking away 2008 (where he only started in 1 game), in 2 of his 3 years he's had a completion percentage under 60%.

 

Vick has never had a season where he completed more than 60%.

 

Of the ones mentioned, Young was stellar as a passer; Tarkenton strung together several 60%+ at the end of his career (possibly when he couldn't run as much), Cunningham had a few here and there, Garcia was very efficient (mostly over 60%), and McNabb has also strung together quite a few 60%, and was always around there (save his rookie season).

 

Vince was almost there (58% last year), but he hasn't done enough for me to say "WOW, he's a great QB." If Vince can amass numbers comparable to Cunningham (who the stats show was always meandering around 60%), so be it.

 

Uh, you do realize that completion percentage is very much a matter of system, yes? West Coast passers tend to have higher completion percentages than non-West Coast passers. John Elway was a running QB with a career completion percentage of under 57%. I'm guessing he's not a good quarterback in your eyes? Lemme throw some other names out at you.

 

Bart Starr - 57.4%

Johnny Unitas - 54.6%

David Carr - 59.8%

Tony Romo - 63.4%

 

Is it your assertion that Tony Romo is better than Starr or Unitas? Of course not. The completion percentage metric isn't even useful in 'rule of thumb' fashion, because of how widely some systems can be. No one cares if you're completing passes into the flat and simple comebacks and slants on a regular basis. That doesn't make you a 'good' (much less 'great') QB. And people who look down their noses at mobile quarterbacks are short sighted. Heck, a mobile QB would've arguably had the VIKINGS in the Super Bowl after running (HUGE lane there), not throwing that pick. The above example is meant to illustrate that under 60% completion percentage is neither the sole purview of mobile QBs nor is it some kind of panacea on judging a quarterback's effectiveness. Most teams nowadays break down completion percentage by zone. As I said, no one cares if you can complete shovel passes and dink & dunk type passes. How accurate are you on intermediate and deep routes? Those passes tend to have lower completion percentages overall, for obvious reasons.

 

But the 60% metric seems to be mainly the stat of the elite QBs. But those QBs, not surprisingly, tend to play in certain systems (read: not vertical based). They also tend to have pretty decent receivers to throw to. Vince Young has had neither, to this stage of his career. I'm not saying he's a "great" QB but it makes sense to find commonalities when evaluating people who don't play on the same team.

[CQI13]

Remi, correct the 60% metric is what I've always viewed as the stat for elite QBs. I'm not looking at wins (Dilfer had that great season by "wins", by no means more than a decent QB). And I don't have access to the more advanced stats at the moment.

 

To answer the question you posed. No, I wouldn't say he's "better", but he is more efficient. I guess realistically, you'd have to look at QBs in similar systems and compare them. McNabb and Vince Young would be a good comparison down the line (lack of good receivers).

 

I'd prefer a passer with the ability to make a run or two, over a person who can run, but can't hit the wide side of a barn.

[GatorBait19]

Remi, correct the 60% metric is what I've always viewed as the stat for elite QBs. I'm not looking at wins (Dilfer had that great season by "wins", by no means more than a decent QB). And I don't have access to the more advanced stats at the moment.

 

To answer the question you posed. No, I wouldn't say he's "better", but he is more efficient. I guess realistically, you'd have to look at QBs in similar systems and compare them. McNabb and Vince Young would be a good comparison down the line (lack of good receivers).

 

I'd prefer a passer with the ability to make a run or two, over a person who can run, but can't hit the wide side of a barn.

 

Bradshaw and Namath both barely had 50% compl. so are you saying you wouldn't take them on your team if given the chance between them and Romo???

[Stennick]

It really depends Bradshaw and Namath played during a different era. Its comparing apples to oranges. If I'm running the offense in 2010 I want a guy that has a 60% or above completion percentage mostly because the type of offense I run I don't stretch the field too often. I'm a big fan of dumping it off to the Half back a few yards up field and him trying to make a play. Or hitting the receivers ten yards up the field and them getting out of bounds avoiding the hit. Dink, dump and dive and then when offense scoots in is when you take your big plays up field.

 

That being said I do agree that you need to look at their mid and long range pass percentages.

 

Would Terry Bradshaw and Namath play well in today's game? Its hard to say they were never asked to do some of the things that guys like Montana, Young, Brady, Manning, Rivers, Brees are asked to do every game.

[GatorBait19]

It really depends Bradshaw and Namath played during a different era. Its comparing apples to oranges. If I'm running the offense in 2010 I want a guy that has a 60% or above completion percentage mostly because the type of offense I run I don't stretch the field too often. I'm a big fan of dumping it off to the Half back a few yards up field and him trying to make a play. Or hitting the receivers ten yards up the field and them getting out of bounds avoiding the hit. Dink, dump and dive and then when offense scoots in is when you take your big plays up field.

 

That being said I do agree that you need to look at their mid and long range pass percentages.

 

Would Terry Bradshaw and Namath play well in today's game? Its hard to say they were never asked to do some of the things that guys like Montana, Young, Brady, Manning, Rivers, Brees are asked to do every game.

 

My only thing is, i never truly thought they were good QB's. (similar to Dilfer) they knew how to mange and game, could make a play every know and then, but relied on Defense and a good run game to win.

 

Both Bradshaw and Namath had either more INT's than TD's or were right there with it

 

But they were great showman, and knew how to control the game. but in today's game, they would be considered as a Trent Dilfer type of player, mange, control, handoff, let the D play great and keep the score close

[CQI13]

Well GatorBait, you just answered your question. No, I wouldn't want a QB with a TD/INT ratio of 1:1 or close. I don't need them to be "showmen." I would agree with Stennick. What he describes is what I would look for.

[GatorBait19]

Well GatorBait, you just answered your question. No, I wouldn't want a QB with a TD/INT ratio of 1:1 or close. I don't need them to be "showmen." I would agree with Stennick. What he describes is what I would look for.

 

so you want Tony Romo?

[Stennick]

Yes I would take Romo over Bradshaw. Again if I had my pick for a QB I'd pick Phillip Rivers, he's young, great arm, super accurate, awesome leadership (playoff game with a bad ACL while LT rode a Bike on the sidelines with the season on the line). However if it was take Bradshaw or take Romo I would take Romo every time. He's not in my top five but he's improved every year and would fit my style of offense a ton better than Bradshaw and Namath.

[GatorBait19]

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/news/story?id=5151435

 

Lol something tells me The Jets are going to be the bad boys of the NFL

[Imarevenant]

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/news/story?id=5151435

 

Lol something tells me The Jets are going to be the bad boys of the NFL

 

He's already been suspended 4 games, he better hope Goodell doesn't loose his patience and make it more.

[GatorBait19]

<p>why is it with New York media always paints there teams to be in trouble when really everything is fine?</p><p> </p><p>

Holmes gets in trouble but everyone is reporting it's just a simple misunderstaning, but New York media makes it sound horrible</p><p> </p><p>

Sanchez wont be back till June, But New York media makes it sound horrible</p><p> </p><p>

Giants need a WR even though Steve Smith, Manningham, and Nicks did a very good job this year</p><p> </p><p>

Jets are the bad boys...... well yes but that's just cuz they wanted to get better.</p><p> </p><p>

They remind me of the Hurricanes, they sucked then started getting the right players (even though their past history isn't the best) and became champions lol</p>

[CQI13]

What's the big deal on the Dez Bryant question.

 

If you say your dad was a pimp, and then you say your mom worked for your dad, what's the next logical question?

 

Should it have been worded differently? Possibly. But I found it funny to hear Mike Wilbon with his fake indignation over it. "It's irresponsible...Teams get away with everything...Players are never forgiven for anything..." Fine, then don't watch if you're so upset. Yeah, like that will happen.

 

How is this different from asking (out of the blue) "Do you like to wear women's underwear?" or "How was it the first time you did heroin?" -- I mean, aren't those insensitive questions too?