The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[Daffanka]

Strikeforce Challengers sounds like such a lousy concept to get your young talent known. We don't want to entirely rely on ex-UFC/Pride fighters so we put all our homegrown talent on cards no one watches

 

Anyway here are some picks for tonight:

 

GSP over Dan Hardy by wrasslin. If he wants to submit him or just pound him out will be for him to decide.

 

Shane Carwin over Fransico Santos Mir III by KO. Carwin is entirely untested in loads of areas and moves like a robot but he's got atomic powered fists. I don't like Mir and I know his wresting is mediocre at best, he's not great off his back, he's recently put on 20 pounds of muscle with no regard to how that'll change his game and he gives up if the fight goes past the first round or he gets hit too hard. Either way I'm certain this won't go to a decision.

 

Kurt Pellegrino over Fabricio Camoes by UD.

 

Jon Fitch over Ben Saunders by UD. Possibly submission in the third round. Saunders is going to get taken down and beat up and he won't be able to do anything about it. I think Fitch is a way too big step up in competition for him but he's young and is going to get a lot better.

 

Jim Miller over Mark Bocek by UD.

 

Rory Markham over Nate Diaz by TKO. Markham's coming in at 7 pounds overweight, is a better wrestler than Diaz and can definitely hurt him with his hands. If Diaz stops throwing weak slaps for punches he can hurt Markham though. Always go with the ridiculously overweight guy.

 

Ricardo Almeida over Matt Brown by submission. Like both guys but I see Almeida slapping on a submision early on.

[Zoloftjunkie]

OMG I am so happy that over rated pos got knocked out. Carwin is my new hero. Welcome to the mid cards Mirr. Not only wont u get a shot at Brock for now but by the time u do he will be fully recovered and back to full strength.

[Daffanka]

Picks

 

One winner wrong. One finish wrong. Not too bad.

[brashleyholland]

OMG I am so happy that over rated pos got knocked out. Carwin is my new hero. Welcome to the mid cards Mirr. Not only wont u get a shot at Brock for now but by the time u do he will be fully recovered and back to full strength.

 

Come on. Mir is overrated? How?

 

It seems as though you win a fight these days and you're 'overrated'...

[jesterx7769]

Overall I enjoyed it. All three of the local places I go were standing room only (when I arrived at 9:30-10) so that sucked, so my gf and I came home with some beers and ordered it.

 

Fitch- pretty much what I expected, however I think a finish would have helped him more, especially considering Saunders was a replacement.

 

Palegrino(sp?)- Never really liked him but dropping the guy on his head was sick, and great choke, loved his enjoyment as I loike when guys when happy when they win instead of always acting like bad ass's

 

Carwin/Mir- Wow, did Carwin surprise Mir with those uppercuts. I was expected more dirty boxing on the cage then bam bam bam. BTW, WTF was with the ref? Seriously Mir was out like three times. he was def. out when he was leaning against Carwin then fell to his knees, then he was getting his head punched in as Mir's instincts were kicking in to just reach out and grab, then when he was totally flat the ref was like him hmm, Mir isn't moving, why dont you punch him 7 times. Gosh. Hopefully Lesnar/Carwin is good, I want to see if Lesnar can toss around Carwin on the ground, btw, I know Carwin cut weight and Lesnar didnt but he looked HUGE in thate cage.

 

GSP- My man but sorry I was dissapointed. I've been a fan since the first Hughes fight (since thats when I started to dislike Hughes) but heres how I see the breakdown

 

Takedowns= A+++ what was he 8 for 8 with only one struggle? God embarrasing for hardy.

 

Ground and Poud= E, has GSP never heard this term? He only threw elbows in the third (i think)

 

subs= B, he had him those two times but why didnt he go for me? hardy wasnt doing crap

 

So he dominated, good for him, I think we all expected it, but unfortunately GSP haters will just say he is boring and a lay and prayer eventhough he used various takedown maneuvers, had great balance and ground control, just really wanted him to rip Hardy's arm right off since he wouldn't tap. As Goldberg would say, Who's Next!?

 

Final note, I hope GSP gets on the same card as Lesnar/Carwin. I hightly doubt it will happen, but I can at least throw that out as hope can't I?

[jesterx7769]

Second post/edit, it was a little sloppy so excuse the beers.

 

just wanted to clarify how I am not really dissapointed by GSP, I just really wanted a finish to shut up his haters who say he has a weak chin (for getting TKO'd once) and is a boring lay n' prayer, and I never thought I would say this but I want GSP/BJ 3 just to see a challenge, Alves= Zero challenge, Hardy= Zero Challenge, Kos or Daley= Zero challenge, and we all know Anderson is just too big physically (I read he walks around at 215-200) and White himself has said this.

[Zoloftjunkie]

"It seems as though you win a fight these days and you're 'overrated'... "

 

He didn't win he got destroyed. Lets see his biggest win was over a broken down blind nog. kongo is a joke. Carwin just showed Mirr how much Mir has improved in boxing. So much for the new and improved mir. So over rated. You must drink his cool aid and like his trash talk.

[Dustin]

"It seems as though you win a fight these days and you're 'overrated'... "

 

He didn't win he got destroyed. Lets see his biggest win was over a broken down blind nog. kongo is a joke. Carwin just showed Mirr how much Mir has improved in boxing. So much for the new and improved mir. So over rated. You must drink his cool aid and like his trash talk.

 

Carwin showed that if a guy as strong as a truck hits you, you will feel it. Mir is still 10 times more skilled.

[Tag01]

Mir is great. He's one of the best heavyweights in the world. Unfortunately for him, Carwin and Lesnar are even better. He's legit though.

[ColtCabana]

Final note, I hope GSP gets on the same card as Lesnar/Carwin. I hightly doubt it will happen, but I can at least throw that out as hope can't I?

 

If they did another end of year supershow like UFC 92 maybe, 3 main event quality match ups on the one card.

[chris caulfield]

GSP will coach on TUF 12 against the Kos/Daley winner.

[brashleyholland]

"It seems as though you win a fight these days and you're 'overrated'... "

 

He didn't win he got destroyed. Lets see his biggest win was over a broken down blind nog. kongo is a joke. Carwin just showed Mirr how much Mir has improved in boxing. So much for the new and improved mir. So over rated. You must drink his cool aid and like his trash talk.

 

Sorry, explain again how he's overrated? Overrated means people view him as being significantly better than he actually is, which isn't the case with Mir at all. People view him as one of the best heavyweight grapplers in the world, who struggles when he gets hit. He was a slight favourite going in to this one, but I didn't see the world and his wife writing Carwin of as a formality. Most of the sports books reflected that.

 

In fact, I think one of the only people touting the 'new and improved Mir' was Mir himself; most people have just questioned how much he added weight is going to hamper him against naturally bigger men.

 

So no, I wouldn't say that Mir was overrated at all.

[brashleyholland]

 

Fitch- pretty much what I expected, however I think a finish would have helped him more, especially considering Saunders was a replacement

 

Fitch is in that awkward possition whereby if he loses, he'll be busted down to the bottom of the pile by virture of the fact that he's such a grinder. It's the Yushin Okami rule :-p There's simply no incentive to go all out (even against guys he should be able to blow right through) when he can take a comfortable decision. At this point the only fight I'm interested in seeing is Fitch vs Kos, just to see those two fight each other. Maybe Penn could give him a good scrap too....just no more middle of the road welterweights.

 

Palegrino(sp?)- Never really liked him but dropping the guy on his head was sick, and great choke, loved his enjoyment as I loike when guys when happy when they win instead of always acting like bad ass's

That was a really fun fight. Good to see 'Batman' sticking to the plan as well; wear him out in the first and go for the finish when he's tired. Interesting fact: Anderson Silva was forced to change his nickname from 'Spiderman' to the Spider when he signed with the UFC...yet Kurt gets to keep 'Batman'...I guess DC are more liberal :-p

 

Carwin/Mir- Wow, did Carwin surprise Mir with those uppercuts. I was expected more dirty boxing on the cage then bam bam bam. BTW, WTF was with the ref? Seriously Mir was out like three times. he was def. out when he was leaning against Carwin then fell to his knees, then he was getting his head punched in as Mir's instincts were kicking in to just reach out and grab, then when he was totally flat the ref was like him hmm, Mir isn't moving, why dont you punch him 7 times. Gosh. Hopefully Lesnar/Carwin is good, I want to see if Lesnar can toss around Carwin on the ground, btw, I know Carwin cut weight and Lesnar didnt but he looked HUGE in thate cage.

 

Weight cutting doesn't come into it really...by the time you fight you have alot of the weight you have 'cut' back on you, it's just any mass you've dieted off in the preceeding weeks. That can't acount for how big Lesnar looked. He's 280 right now, excactly the same as Carwin walks around at...the man is a freak of nature.

 

Agreed about the ref too...when Mir was sprawled at the end, the ref should have called it after the first shot. Thankfully the others weren't as clean, but still, ref gave Mir too much respect there.

 

 

 

So he dominated, good for him, I think we all expected it, but unfortunately GSP haters will just say he is boring and a lay and prayer eventhough he used various takedown maneuvers, had great balance and ground control, just really wanted him to rip Hardy's arm right off since he wouldn't tap. As Goldberg would say, Who's Next!?

 

Final note, I hope GSP gets on the same card as Lesnar/Carwin. I hightly doubt it will happen, but I can at least throw that out as hope can't I?

 

I think they've run the course of finding opponants who can beat GSP now; they know they aren't going to find any at 170 just yet. Especially with Alves and Hardy, it's become a case of finding opponants that the public will get behind. Most 'casual' fans here in the UK were predicting a Hardy KO lat night...anyone with a passing knowledge of the fighters didn't give him a chance in hell.

 

Still, they built a good image around him, got people to buy into the 'mouthy, trash-talking punk' image. Dan is absolutly nothing like the above in 'real life'...he's quite reserved, chilled out and loves the ninja turtles cartoon. Thats why the Mohawk is red btw, Raphael...seriously.

 

Moving forward, they're going to have to find another guy who they can promote like that. Daley *is* as mouthy as he comes accross on camera, Paulo Thiago has the whole 'Brazilian SWAT team' thing going on, so maybe that would work...I guess people could get into a second Kos fight, moreso that a second Fitch fight anyway.

 

One last thing...Hardy looked a lot bigger than GSP last night. Dan is 190+ come belltime...with all this talk of GSP to middleweight, you have to wonder how he'd do against someone like Sonnen, Silva etc who will dwarf him *and* know how to use their size.

[brashleyholland]

Overall I enjoyed it. All three of the local places I go were standing room only (when I arrived at 9:30-10) so that sucked, so my gf and I came home with some beers and ordered it.

 

 

Question: Did you feel ripped off, or was it value for money. I think we're far too kind to the UFC here in the UK simply because we don't have to drop $55 on each card...

[Synticha]

I watched UFC 111 live and I have to say that it's a great shame that Mir lost... GSP showed once again why I hate LnP...

 

It's good to watch UFC in Finland as you can see the shows for free if you have PlusTV card on your TV

[Daffanka]

Palhares' heelhook got him suspended for 90 days by the way. I don't think it was intentional or anything but heelhooks mess you up really badly so he probably should have let go once the taps came. Where was the ref in all this?

 

Fitch dominated Saunders but didn't get a finish. Worst case scenario for UFC and not too good for Fitch. Sad too because I really like guy.

 

Carwin did about how I expected him to. Mir showed he can't wrestle, he can't recover and he folds after the first punch. For all that body mass Mir put on he sure doesn't seem good at putting it to use. No idea why the ref let it go on like that though, Mir was taking clean punched for several seconds while the ref watched.

 

Thing about Mir is I feel like he's in a very awkward position. He's skilled enough that he's going to look good against bad to mediocre heavyweights like Kongo but his stylistic weaknesses mean he's never going to crack the title scene.

 

And yeah GSP - Hardy what can you say? I think this highlighted why GSP has trouble finishing guys, he's much more committed to positional dominance than finding submissions or hitting hard. No one's ever going to beat him but he's never going to finish really tough guys.

 

Overall it was a really good event and Bocek - Miller and Pellegrino - Camoes were both a lot better than I expected. It still stung that we didn't get to see Fitch - Alves and I really hope that's the fight next for both guys.

[jesterx7769]

Question: Did you feel ripped off, or was it value for money. I think we're far too kind to the UFC here in the UK simply because we don't have to drop $55 on each card...

 

Yes and no. Yes because its a lot of money, but the only other PPV we've ordered in the past year was 100 for GSP since my gf likes him, and she was pretty upset all places were full but by the first take down of the GSP she was laughing, so it was worth it

 

And if your hear more from him than he says in interviews you will have to post what he thought about the takedowns and his inability to stop them after training for them all these months.

 

I watched UFC 111 live and I have to say that it's a great shame that Mir lost... GSP showed once again why I hate LnP...

 

Unfortunately I knew that is what people would say, how exactly is GSP's style LnP though? The fight was never once stood up due to inactivity. He was constantly passing guard, trying subs, getting his back, postured up in the later rounds (didnt really land anything), when I think of LnP I think of something like the last Lesnar Mir fight where he just laid on Frank punching not even attempting to pass guard or improve position just confident in knowing eventually those shots would land, kinda like Big Country.

 

Palhares' heelhook got him suspended for 90 days by the way. I don't think it was intentional or anything but heelhooks mess you up really badly so he probably should have let go once the taps came. Where was the ref in all this?

 

This. I like Rogan alot but he was being a real A$$ to that guy. Why should he let go just because the guy is tapping? Shouldn't he wait until the ref comes over and stops the fight? Rogan doing his counting, what a jack a$$ thing to do, it took the ref 3/4 seconds to get over there then he held on for an extra second after the ref was tapping him. Did he hold it too long? Yes, but not the length Rogan implied (and of course since he is the UFC's voice his word is God) then of course the guy is injured which makes it worse, but leg locks do that to ya, if he hadn't been injured and been a choke instead it wouldn't have been a big deal

 

I think this highlighted why GSP has trouble finishing guys, he's much more committed to positional dominance than finding submissions or hitting hard. No one's ever going to beat him but he's never going to finish really tough guys.

 

Once again, this. I think this fight really showed his struggle to finish fights which as I said disapointed me b/c now it will be labeled a boring lnp fight. Yes Hardy did a good job escaping the two subs but what about all those chokes GSP didn't sink in? What about barely landing any hits? Yes he is a dominating grappler but I think stuff like this hurts his legacy of being the greatest PnP when you have other guys out there finishing fights in the first round (or second), I mean some people considered Tito a somewhat LnP but he could finish fights from there by strikes which GSP really needs to learn apparentley, 4 out of his last 6 weren't by finish, I dont include Penn 2 as a finish since he had to quit after the 4th

[brashleyholland]

And if your hear more from him than he says in interviews you will have to post what he thought about the takedowns and his inability to stop them after training for them all these months.

 

Will probably get to speak to him once he's back in Nottingham and back in the gym. Hopefully get an interview with him and link it here.

 

 

Unfortunately I knew that is what people would say, how exactly is GSP's style LnP though? The fight was never once stood up due to inactivity. He was constantly passing guard, trying subs, getting his back, postured up in the later rounds (didnt really land anything), when I think of LnP I think of something like the last Lesnar Mir fight where he just laid on Frank punching not even attempting to pass guard or improve position just confident in knowing eventually those shots would land, kinda like Big Country.

 

Totally agree. I think it's partly down to sour grapes, partly due to people wanting to see GSP get hurt, beaten or just put in a bad position. I wouldn't call what he did lay and pray, he was very active. His positioning was great as well; if you know your positions and set ups you could see him setting up shoulder and arm locks quite a few times without actually going for them. Could he have done more? Maybe, but he's in a fight - why take risks against a guy who is there to hurt you?

 

This. I like Rogan alot but he was being a real A$$ to that guy. Why should he let go just because the guy is tapping? Shouldn't he wait until the ref comes over and stops the fight? Rogan doing his counting, what a jack a$$ thing to do, it took the ref 3/4 seconds to get over there then he held on for an extra second after the ref was tapping him. Did he hold it too long? Yes, but not the length Rogan implied (and of course since he is the UFC's voice his word is God) then of course the guy is injured which makes it worse, but leg locks do that to ya, if he hadn't been injured and been a choke instead it wouldn't have been a big deal

 

Again, totally agree. You don't stop punching, kicking, cranking or squeezing until the ref stops the fight. It's not the fighter's responsibility - it's the refs. Now if you hold on after the ref stops it (which Palhares did) then you pay the price. Babalu got the can, but I doubt this will go any further. It was a split second thing and he was in the heat of the moment, whereas Babalu admitted that he was trying to put the guy out.

[d_w_w]

I watched UFC 111 live and I have to say that it's a great shame that Mir lost... Fitch showed once again why I hate LnP...

 

It's good to watch UFC in Finland as you can see the shows for free if you have PlusTV card on your TV

 

Fixed

 

Seriously though - GSP isn't the most exciting fighter in the world, but he tried to finish the fight last night. I'm guessing like 9 out of 10 fighters would have tapped to one of the two armlocks.

 

Fitch on the other hand ... that guy has got to realize, at some point, that the UFC is a business. The fans want to see people try to finish fights. When they don't buy that you're even trying, they'll boo.

 

And, to make a wrestling comparison, it's not like the boos that Lesnar gets (where people want to see him lose because they think he's a jerk). It's more like X-Pac heat, where they don't even want to see him fight.

 

Or, in my concrete terms: I have split just about every UFC over the last 4 years with my brother-in-law, best friend, and oldest nephew. I don't know that I could convince them to pitch in money for a Fitch-headed card, regardless of his opponent.

[Daffanka]

Totally agree. I think it's partly down to sour grapes, partly due to people wanting to see GSP get hurt, beaten or just put in a bad position. I wouldn't call what he did lay and pray, he was very active. His positioning was great as well; if you know your positions and set ups you could see him setting up shoulder and arm locks quite a few times without actually going for them. Could he have done more? Maybe, but he's in a fight - why take risks against a guy who is there to hurt you?

 

My biggest problem with the fight was actually his kimura. The armbar wasn't very well applied and Hardy slipping out wasn't huge, but with the kimura I felt like he really didn't want to -any- risks and finish with it.

 

The thing about his kimura was that instead of giving up his position, potentially putting himself at risk, and really twisting it to complete it he was fine with just yanking it like a police grip which hurts but doesn't put a guy like Hardy in a position where he either has to submit or have arm ripped off his shoulder.

 

I mean he was in total control of the fight and there's no one saying he has to complete the kimura or else he sucks, but at the post fight conference I got the sense that he was disappointed he didn't finish Hardy and I just wanted to tell him that sometimes you need to take risks to finish a guy.

 

His style reminds me a bit of Floyd Mayweather's. Incredible to watch from a technical perspective but not very exciting and a style that doesn't take any risks, however small they are.

 

Again, totally agree. You don't stop punching, kicking, cranking or squeezing until the ref stops the fight. It's not the fighter's responsibility - it's the refs. Now if you hold on after the ref stops it (which Palhares did) then you pay the price. Babalu got the can, but I doubt this will go any further. It was a split second thing and he was in the heat of the moment, whereas Babalu admitted that he was trying to put the guy out.

 

Did you hear what Heath called him?!

[brashleyholland]

 

His style reminds me a bit of Floyd Mayweather's. Incredible to watch from a technical perspective but not very exciting and a style that doesn't take any risks, however small they are.

 

Spot on. I think we're going to end up seeing a lot more of that as time goes by and more money is involved. With guys like GSP, it pays not to lose.

 

Did you hear what Heath called him?!

 

Lol, I can't remember off the top of my head...Doofus or something?

[jesterx7769]

Glad we agree BH, btw, has Hardy ever trained at Wolfslair? I would have thought he would have gone there for some of the wrestling help, unless Rough house has a rivalry now since some of their Ultimate Fighter guys went to Wolfslair

[RingofHonorGuard]

Gotta say, you were spot on Daff, and I give you credit. You called the Fitch over Saunders(which wasn't too much of a prediction). But I really thought Saunders size would make it weird for Fitch. I just expected Saunders to come out guns blazing like a man with nothing to lose... Instead he just ended up looking like... yep, you guessed it... Jon Fitch when he fought GSP.

 

Credit to Fitch, though.. Jake Rossen on Sherdog pretty much called it spot on when he said the only difference between GSP and Fitch is a Gatorade sponorship.

 

I'm just overly disappointed in Saunders... I would have expected more out of someone that absolutely had nothing to lose against Fitch. It's easy to say "Well, I would have done this if I was in there"... But Saunders could have at least taken some chances out there and attempted a sub or two.. Fitch wasn't riding him that closely, and he was able to effectively use an unorthodox butterfly guard... Maybe the pressure of Fitch's wrestling just boggled his brain, but it seemed like a wasted opportunity to me.

 

Saunders came away looking like a tough guy, and Fitch is probably back in the UFC dog house... He'll probably be fighting on the prelimsof the next TUF Finale.

 

Major Annoyances of the Night:

-MMA judging; very poor decision on Miller/Bocek, biggest robbery this year in my opinion.

-referees; Forget suspending Palhares, fire that referee who stood there like an idiot and allowed a fighter's knee to be torn. It's THEIR job to stop the fight. There's been too many instances lately of referees taking a "fan's" view and watching the fight from that angle, instead of being right up on the action and seeing the inside workings. These are supposed to be trained professionals. They should be familiar with all the submissions, positions, and everything associated with them. They should know that leg submissions are by far the most dangerous long-term submissions(barring a choke to the death). And how many punches did Mir eat when he wasn't even facing the fist that was blasting him? That was ridiculous. If you're a referee and a fighter isn't squirming to avoid impact, there's a good chance he's out and it's time to stop the fight; don't allow a dude that looks like he just sprung out of the final step of the evolutionary chain to bash Mir's brains in when he isn't defending himself. He wasn't even putting his hand up to say "No, don't hit me, sir"... he was just laying there, taking punch after punch after punch. Somewhere Jesse Ventura is writing a conspiracy blog on Lesnar putting a few hundreds in the ref's pocket to "let Mir take a few extra if the option arose".

 

 

Surprise of the Night: I gained a lot of respect for St. Pierre, and actually enjoyed watching him fight for the first time since his second fight with Serra. It wasn't his unstoppable takedowns, or his guard passing that impressed me... It was his respect for another human being. After seeing Palhares rip Drwal's leg apart, I don't think the UFC could have handled another one, especially in such a highly marketed fight.

 

St. Pierre took a decision by choice this time, not because he couldn't finish. I don't care what he said to ham up to the cameras in the post-fight presser, he chose not to snap Hardy's arm with the kimura. The armbar was a technical error, and Hardy's recent training with Bravo shined in the escape. But, as someone who's trained in BJJ, that kimura was nasty. It was deep, and St. Pierre torqued it once hard to tell Hardy to tap, and when he didn't, he realized he had a choice to make.... Snap his arm, and get bad press for the UFC or Let it go. He chose to let it go, and it was the right choice.

 

There's no way "sweat" or "his arms being tired" factored into that kimura. It was hooked up, and Hardy had no escape other than letting St. Pierre end the fight by breaking it. If you watch it again he looks at his corner, smiles a few times, almost laughing and a few seconds later he just lets it go. St. Pierre was asking him about it right after the fight too, asking him why he didn't tap... and he sounded a little agitated. But he's a real class act, as he made Hardy look golden in the post-fight interview and the press conference.

[Daffanka]

Yeah I was expecting Saunders to come guns blazing knees flying but he was too cautious and got taken by Fitch, as you do. Just as surprised that all he did on the ground was hold on for dear life.

 

Also the kimura was actually improperly applied. I'm not exactly a black belt but what GSP did was just yank the arm towards Hardy's neck rather than glue Hardy's elbow to his chest and twist it. Whether that was because he didn't know better or because he didn't want to give up his position to finish it I dunno but a proper kimura would've mangled Hardy's shoulder.

 

Refs were terrible and Rogan seemed really cranky.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Refs were terrible and Rogan seemed really cranky.

 

Rogan's probably taking a "t-break".

 

And yeah, it was mostly the positioning on the kimura, but if you watch Hardy's face when St. Pierre torques, it would have most likely broken after a torque or two more, regardless of technique. He asked Hardy if he was double-jointed after the fight too, which was funny.

 

Regardless of the reason, it just follows up my point that St. Pierre's jiu jitsu is very overrated, but wow... If he ever figures out how to apply submissions properly there's no one that will stop him, Anderson Silva or otherwise.

 

I found myself getting pissed off at Greg Jackson during the fight for telling St. Pierre not to finish/pass. It's okay to want your fighter to work on things, but let him do that in the gym in intense sparring... Don't use a main event fight to work on your skill set, that's annoying. How annoying would it have been if Michael Jordan simply layed the ball up into the square for an easy two every time? We need a dunk from time to time, George... Make it happen.