GatorBait19 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I don't know if they're actually making the claim or it's being speculated they might, but there is talk that Brandon Vera's camp want, if Thiago Silva's second test does come back positive, the result of their fight be ruled a no-contest and Vera be rehired by UFC. The reason being that he was cut as a result of the loss to Silva but if the result is now a no-contest, there isn't the reason for him to be cut. Vera wasn't fired just because of that one match. in his last 8 fights before Silva he was 3-5 and 1 of the loses were to a guy who is no longer with the company because they couldn't win fights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 I don't know if they're actually making the claim or it's being speculated they might, but there is talk that Brandon Vera's camp want, if Thiago Silva's second test does come back positive, the result of their fight be ruled a no-contest and Vera be rehired by UFC. The reason being that he was cut as a result of the loss to Silva but if the result is now a no-contest, there isn't the reason for him to be cut. I got into this on our radio show this weekend...it's an interesting one. I don't believe there is a provision for this kind of thing in UFC contracts, none that I've seen anyway, and I've seen the kind of standard ones that I assume Silva would have. The black and white of it is "we can cut you on a loss" so legally speaking, there's likely nothing where his people can say "the termination was invalid, you have to reinstate his contract". But realistically, Vera's people aren't going to take the UFC to court, it doesn't work like that in the fight game. Now, in terms of what's fair, you would say that Vera would not have been cut if he didn't lose. Silva (allegedly) cheated to win. If he'd have gone into the cage with loaded gloves and knocked Vera out, and they found out after the fight, Vera wouldn't have been cut. To me, cheating is cheating and it's the same thing - the fair thing to do is give him a one fight deal: Win = stay, lose = leave. Personally though, I don't see it happening. Like Gatorbait19 said, Vera wasn't fired for losing one fight, he's put on some consistently awful performances and hasn't lived up the early "LHW and HW champion" hype from back in the day. He's a spoiler, they don't want him back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I got into this on our radio show this weekend...it's an interesting one. I don't believe there is a provision for this kind of thing in UFC contracts, none that I've seen anyway, and I've seen the kind of standard ones that I assume Silva would have. The black and white of it is "we can cut you on a loss" so legally speaking, there's likely nothing where his people can say "the termination was invalid, you have to reinstate his contract". But realistically, Vera's people aren't going to take the UFC to court, it doesn't work like that in the fight game. Now, in terms of what's fair, you would say that Vera would not have been cut if he didn't lose. Silva (allegedly) cheated to win. If he'd have gone into the cage with loaded gloves and knocked Vera out, and they found out after the fight, Vera wouldn't have been cut. To me, cheating is cheating and it's the same thing - the fair thing to do is give him a one fight deal: Win = stay, lose = leave. Personally though, I don't see it happening. Like Gatorbait19 said, Vera wasn't fired for losing one fight, he's put on some consistently awful performances and hasn't lived up the early "LHW and HW champion" hype from back in the day. He's a spoiler, they don't want him back. What happens if it's not steroids, but pain medication? That doesn't excuse him, but it likely mean he wasn't cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 What happens if it's not steroids, but pain medication? That doesn't excuse him, but it likely mean he wasn't cheating. Well, it gives the debate more moral ambiguity, but by the letter of the law he's still cheating. If he's taking painkillers because he's addicted to them, then they're a drug of abuse. If he's taking them to fight though an injury, they they're performance enhancing - they're allowing him to perform at a level he would not otherwise be able to without them. Even if he has a script for something and discloses it in the pre-fight medical, if it's on the banned list then he can't have it in his system when he fights. For me, it's less of a reason to bring Vera back. Like you said, fans may see it as more of a case of Silva taking something to be able to fight, rather than taking something that helped him beat Vera. By the letter of the law though, he's still cheating. Nevada switched Karo Parisyan's win over Dong Hyun-Kim to a NC when he was popped for painkillers, so I don't see why this would be different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffanka Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Vera would've lost that fight to a quadruple amputee if they were willing to try and take him down. That said I think it'd be fine to bring him back for one more just to set the precedent. Put him on the undercard against a returning Mark Coleman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Well, it gives the debate more moral ambiguity, but by the letter of the law he's still cheating. If he's taking painkillers because he's addicted to them, then they're a drug of abuse. If he's taking them to fight though an injury, they they're performance enhancing - they're allowing him to perform at a level he would not otherwise be able to without them. Even if he has a script for something and discloses it in the pre-fight medical, if it's on the banned list then he can't have it in his system when he fights. For me, it's less of a reason to bring Vera back. Like you said, fans may see it as more of a case of Silva taking something to be able to fight, rather than taking something that helped him beat Vera. By the letter of the law though, he's still cheating. Nevada switched Karo Parisyan's win over Dong Hyun-Kim to a NC when he was popped for painkillers, so I don't see why this would be different. That's true. Do you think the UFC would be more lenient and understanding that case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 That's true. Do you think the UFC would be more lenient and understanding that case? Towards Silva? I'm not sure it'll affect what they do with him to be honest. Obviously they'll honour the suspension, but I don't see them sh*t-canning the guy for a positive test regardless. He's been around for a while, and he's hovering near the top of the non-elite LHW pile...I think he's safe. If he was a first timer, I could see them saying bye-bye. But they put Leben back on the main card after he was popped for roids and one would assume they'll be putting Sonnen straight into a co-main/main event, so Silva will probably find his way back into the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Oops.... http://liverkick.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=296:hesdy-gerges-arrested-for-drug-trafficking&catid=34:demo-content K-1 and It's Showtime! fighter Hesdy Gerges arrested for drug trafficking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffanka Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Well there goes my pick for breakthrough kickboxer of the year 2011. Apparently he's maybe going to be replaced by Hari in his upcoming fight against Ghita. Which would rule because they're two of the most firepower heavy guys at heavyweight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurphy1014 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Dana White announced via Twitter today than Tito has pulled out of his fight with Lil Nog due to stitches and that Phil Davis is replacing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoloftjunkie Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I am kind of torn on how I feel about Kenny Florian dropping down to 145. I really, really wanted to see him make another run at the 155 strap and hopefully get it this time. It almost feels like he has given up on it for a quicker shot at a title. But I just don't see him as a quiter tbh. Wonder if he was asked to drop down by White so Aldo could have a big name to defend his title against. I dunno. Maybe I am just to much of a fan of his and maybe he isn't quite as good as I have him built up in my head. I think he can take out Aldo but I would rather see him conquer the Mtn of 155 first. Just feels like he is leaving unfinished bussiness there. So what do you guys think about the drop? And how do you think he will fair at that weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I am kind of torn on how I feel about Kenny Florian dropping down to 145. I really, really wanted to see him make another run at the 155 strap and hopefully get it this time. It almost feels like he has given up on it for a quicker shot at a title. But I just don't see him as a quiter tbh. Wonder if he was asked to drop down by White so Aldo could have a big name to defend his title against. I dunno. Maybe I am just to much of a fan of his and maybe he isn't quite as good as I have him built up in my head. I think he can take out Aldo but I would rather see him conquer the Mtn of 155 first. Just feels like he is leaving unfinished bussiness there. So what do you guys think about the drop? And how do you think he will fair at that weight. I think it's a bad idea. He's a guy that dropped from Light Heavyweight, to Middleweight, then to Welterweight, then to Lightweight, and finally, Featherweight. His problem isn't really weight, though. He isn't necessarily fight guys that are much bigger than him. His problem is, his standing grappling is terrible. Being a skinny tall guy actually makes this worse, not better. He might have a reach advantage and height advantage over most featherweights, but if said featherweight is short and stocky like Maynard is, he's going to get pushed up against the cage and out-wrestled. Now he's EVEN skinnier, and there's some decent wrestlers at featherweight... forget Aldo, he's going to have a hard time reaching past the best wrestlers of the division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I think it's a bad idea. He's a guy that dropped from Light Heavyweight, to Middleweight, then to Welterweight, then to Lightweight, and finally, Featherweight. His problem isn't really weight, though. To be fair, he only competed at middleweight for TUF and the Finale. I don't recall him ever fighting at 205. I'm pretty sure that the fights he had before TUF were fell between the welter-middleweight mark. I think...! Your point stands though; 145 will be the third serious title run that Kenny has made in a new division. Weight isn't the issue....for me, the issue is that he isn't good enough, and that he's had the wrong people (his brother) in charge of his career recently. Now, I don't mean any disrespect to Kenny by saying he's "not good enough"...what I mean by that is that he isn't above the glass ceiling with the elite fighters in any given weightclass. He's the guy that challenges for the title, the guy that weeds out the great fighters from the rest of the pack...but he's not a champion. As people have already said, he's going to have the same kind of problems against the best wrestlers at 145 as he's had before. As for Aldo....Aldo will hurt him baaad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tag01 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Kenny will make 145 easy, and he'll do fine there. People get hung up on the fact that he was a middle weight on TUF but the man was puffed up at 170, never mind at 185. Physically, he was never a "big" lightweight. He's going to be a great addition to a division that needs depth and star power, and is probably one win from a title shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 To be fair, he only competed at middleweight for TUF and the Finale. I don't recall him ever fighting at 205. I'm pretty sure that the fights he had before TUF were fell between the welter-middleweight mark. I think...! Your point stands though; 145 will be the third serious title run that Kenny has made in a new division. Weight isn't the issue....for me, the issue is that he isn't good enough, and that he's had the wrong people (his brother) in charge of his career recently. Now, I don't mean any disrespect to Kenny by saying he's "not good enough"...what I mean by that is that he isn't above the glass ceiling with the elite fighters in any given weightclass. He's the guy that challenges for the title, the guy that weeds out the great fighters from the rest of the pack...but he's not a champion. As people have already said, he's going to have the same kind of problems against the best wrestlers at 145 as he's had before. As for Aldo....Aldo will hurt him baaad. Actually, my mistake. I think you are correct on the LHW, my mistake. But in any case, his size was never the issue... it's his wrestling. His defensive wrestling needs a lot of work. He's 34 now, though (shocking to me), and he isn't likely to improve more than he already has... he might have reached his peak. Kenny will make 145 easy, and he'll do fine there. People get hung up on the fact that he was a middle weight on TUF but the man was puffed up at 170, never mind at 185. Physically, he was never a "big" lightweight. He's going to be a great addition to a division that needs depth and star power, and is probably one win from a title shot. You DO know his walking weight was around 177, right? He's a BIG Lightweight. Maybe not as big as Maynard, but he's certainly a big Lightweight. He can make Featherweight, I think... but it's definitely his minimum weight he can make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tag01 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Actually, my mistake. I think you are correct on the LHW, my mistake. But in any case, his size was never the issue... it's his wrestling. His defensive wrestling needs a lot of work. He's 34 now, though (shocking to me), and he isn't likely to improve more than he already has... he might have reached his peak. You DO know his walking weight was around 177, right? He's a BIG Lightweight. Maybe not as big as Maynard, but he's certainly a big Lightweight. He can make Featherweight, I think... but it's definitely his minimum weight he can make. He said that in the same interview that he claimed he couldn't drop to 145, and look at him now. He might make 177 during his time off, but he's never been 177 on fight night. Hell, that's what Thiago Alves weighed a few days before his last fight. Not buying it. Especially in this interview from a couple of years ago where he said he "walks around" at 168 but at fight he's never more than 160 or so. http://www.fightmagazine.com/mma-magazine/mma-article.asp?aid=235&issid=9 145 will be as steep as Kenny can cut, but he's not a "big lightweight." He's got this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 He said that in the same interview that he claimed he couldn't drop to 145, and look at him now. He might make 177 during his time off, but he's never been 177 on fight night. Hell, that's what Thiago Alves weighed a few days before his last fight. Not buying it. Especially in this interview from a couple of years ago where he said he "walks around" at 168 but at fight he's never more than 160 or so. http://www.fightmagazine.com/mma-magazine/mma-article.asp?aid=235&issid=9 145 will be as steep as Kenny can cut, but he's not a "big lightweight." He's got this. Considering he went from a Middleweight to a Featherweight, I can't see how he's not a big Lightweight. He's certainly not the biggest. He's still pretty big at LW. The dude is going to be a very big FW. But that's beside the point... he's problem isn't weight. It's wrestling, but more specifically, DEFENSIVE wrestling. At 34, I don't think he's going to improve much in that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Considering he went from a Middleweight to a Featherweight, I can't see how he's not a big Lightweight. He's certainly not the biggest. He's still pretty big at LW. The dude is going to be a very big FW. But that's beside the point... he's problem isn't weight. It's wrestling, but more specifically, DEFENSIVE wrestling. At 34, I don't think he's going to improve much in that area. But again, he was never really a middleweight. He just took a couple of fights in that range, then didn't get into shape for TUF because it was at MW. Like I said before though, I don't think Kenny's size is the problem...the problems he has aren't things that will be solved by being the bigger man in the cage. I think his career will go exactly the same way it has at WW and LW. He'll beat some good fighters and lose to some better ones. I do like that it has divided opinion though...will be interesting to see how it plays out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tag01 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 i will agree with both of you that size wasn't his real problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 But again, he was never really a middleweight. He just took a couple of fights in that range, then didn't get into shape for TUF because it was at MW. Like I said before though, I don't think Kenny's size is the problem...the problems he has aren't things that will be solved by being the bigger man in the cage. I think his career will go exactly the same way it has at WW and LW. He'll beat some good fighters and lose to some better ones. I do like that it has divided opinion though...will be interesting to see how it plays out! I think he CAN make that weight, and he will probably do even better than he has at LW... but he will always be outside the top fighters, simply because he can't wrestle. I know it sucks for him... but it is, what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Can we all at least agree that the dude looks like a bad Ben Stiller impersonator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Can we all at least agree that the dude looks like a bad Ben Stiller impersonator? He looks more like Ariel Helwani to me. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffanka Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Florian's wrestling isn't bad specifically, it just doesn't stack up guys like Maynard. Kenny's biggest problem has always been mental. If the fight doesn't go the way he expects it to he shuts down and all his offense becomes incredibly telegraphed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashleyholland Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/brashleyholland/kenny-florian-mugshot.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tag01 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 He looks more like Ariel Helwani to me. Seriously. If Kenny Florian and the creepy doll on the tricycle from Saw had a kid, it would be Ariel Helwani. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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