The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

UK'ers, get ready to camp out in front of your computer if you want to see the UFC tonight. Not looking forward to it.

 

Optimus Prime says...

 

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/brashleyholland/p20120216-022315.jpg

 

"PLUG LAPTOP INTO BIG TELLY. ENJOY ULTIMATE HUMAN FIGHTING"

[Target Practice]

A little late, I know, but Word of Dana says that the event will be free for UK viewers on UFC.tv for 24 hrs, so if you're in bed right now missing it, you can catch up later.

[brashleyholland]

Well that was pretty awesome.

 

Ellenberger vs Condit 2 on Fox later this year please!!

[The Shape]

Man Diego is a warrior. And Ellenberger looked awful in that final round, the way he went from a takedown to surrendering his back. Could see him KOing GSP but would more likely get outlasted, and I think the same would happen in a rematch with Condit. Nonetheless I see no reason why that fight shouldn't happen now.

[Target Practice]

Problem is, Diego is making up for poor technique with an iron chin and a lion's heart - he takes a lot of shots that would likely knock out other fighters. That's not a healthy long-term career move - look at Wandy - the guy can still kill a dude just by looking at him nasty, but those years of having dudes stamp on his face have taken their toll on him, and it's now at the point where you're a little bit worried every time he steps in the Octagon in case he gets hurt.

 

As for Ellenberger, he looked excellent on his feet as usual, and against any other fighter would be going home with another KO win, but the ease with which Sanchez got into a dangerously dominant position against him was worrying - against a more competent wrestler, I worry he might be exposed a little. For me, I'd like to see him fight the winner of Koscheck/Hendricks - alternatively, Jon Fitch might be a good matchup.

[jesterx7769]

Isn't the biggest story out of this the dumb interim title? If were going to have fights like this (Ellenberger/Sanchez or Kos/Hendricks) but Condit isn't going to fight them, why make him interim champ? Stupid marketing ploys bug me. Make the fighters fight to earn their money and popularity and give the fans what they want. All we heard leading up to the interim fight was how GSP was gonna be out and Condit may make 2/3 defenses, then everyone was hyping Ellenberger/Sanchez for interim shot until White finally shot it down day of the fight, not earlier of course cuz less would watch same with Condit/Diaz fight.

[ampulator]

I like Diego, but he is proof that some people are unable to get better at technique, just like some people are unable to have heavier or faster hands. It's less likely compared to the other two, but some people will just always be less technical.

[CoutureLegend]

Isn't the biggest story out of this the dumb interim title? If were going to have fights like this (Ellenberger/Sanchez or Kos/Hendricks) but Condit isn't going to fight them, why make him interim champ? Stupid marketing ploys bug me. Make the fighters fight to earn their money and popularity and give the fans what they want. All we heard leading up to the interim fight was how GSP was gonna be out and Condit may make 2/3 defenses, then everyone was hyping Ellenberger/Sanchez for interim shot until White finally shot it down day of the fight, not earlier of course cuz less would watch same with Condit/Diaz fight.

 

I think the interim title was necessary giving the length of time between title defenses for Georges St. Pierre. I do however agree that it's rather bizarre & frankly stupid that the interim champion has the option of sitting out for 10 months whilst he waits on GSP.

 

I fully understand #1 contenders being afforded the option of waiting on the champion (Evans, Hendo) but the whole point of an interim title is that the person holding the belt is the champion of that division, until such time that the 'real' champion returns, so Condit really should have to fight the top contenders until St. Pierre is active again.

[bigtplaystew]

I think the interim title was necessary giving the length of time between title defenses for Georges St. Pierre. I do however agree that it's rather bizarre & frankly stupid that the interim champion has the option of sitting out for 10 months whilst he waits on GSP.

 

I fully understand #1 contenders being afforded the option of waiting on the champion (Evans, Hendo) but the whole point of an interim title is that the person holding the belt is the champion of that division, until such time that the 'real' champion returns, so Condit really should have to fight the top contenders until St. Pierre is active again.

 

Couldn't agree more. The thing is though, is there a number one contender? Is Ellenberger the true number one contender while that Koz/Hendricks fight is out there?

[Target Practice]

If I had the choice, the next fight for Ellenberger would be Jon Fitch. Both guys showed potential weaknesses in their last fight that fall nicely into the other's strengths - Fitch showed that he might be susceptible to getting sparked with the big overhand right, and Ellenberger certainly didn't look great on his back against Sanchez. Fitch still has plenty of name value despite the Hendricks loss, and there don't seem to be many better fights for him right now.

[The Shape]

Couldn't agree more. The thing is though, is there a number one contender? Is Ellenberger the true number one contender while that Koz/Hendricks fight is out there?

 

Yes, because anything that involves Koscheck potentially fighting GSP again should be avoided for his safety and everyone else's sanity.

[CoutureLegend]

Yes, because anything that involves Koscheck potentially fighting GSP again should be avoided for his safety and everyone else's sanity.

 

In my opinion the biggest problem with the welterweight division is that there's really not a whole lot of guys that would beat Koscheck.

 

If your ranking the fighters based on form then Koscheck would probably be around 4/5 considering he lost to GSP fairly recently, but i think if your ranking on ability then Koscheck has to be the #2 guy in the division. Not that i'm writing Hendricks off, or saying Koscheck would definitely beat guys like Condit & Ellenberger, but i know where my money would be if those fights happened. Will be interesting to see how they go about things if Koscheck beats up all the contenders, because we know he ain't getting another shot at GSP.

[CoutureLegend]

Couldn't agree more. The thing is though, is there a number one contender? Is Ellenberger the true number one contender while that Koz/Hendricks fight is out there?

 

I've noticed there's been alot of talk around who is next in line between Ellenberger or Hendricks/Koscheck.. Seems like people are forgetting the Alves/Kampmann fight in a few weeks. Winner of that one surely has to be in contention alongside those guys.

[ampulator]

They will only let Ellenberger fight Fitch if the UFC believes Ellenberger has no potential and sucks. After Fitch'es loss, they will unlikely give him anyone that is on a win or a win streak.

[damonster]

On a side note, i did not know that Struve was fighting Bigfoot.

[brashleyholland]

Fitch isn't fighting anyone on a winning streak after that big loss unless it's an eleventh-hour replacement. Fitch vs Story/Brenneman?

 

Alves and Kampman are both a good few fights away from title contention. Alves is 2-3 in his last five, nowhere near the belt. Kampman is closer but even if he beats Alves, he'll need a couple of big W's. Kampman, if he wins, vs Ellenberger?

 

Kos vs Hendricks is the number one contender fight for me. That fight is in early May, which could set up a potential fight between the winner and Condit in August. Winner of that fights GSP late November/early December. This leaves Condit without a fight from Feb till August, but who else is there, seriously?

 

The only other thing they could do on PPV as of right now is Kos vs Condit...I just don't see it. Condit vs Ellenberger 2 on Fox could work I guess, but I don't think they're ready to pull the trigger with Jake yet.

 

Someone asked me if Kampmann mows through Alves, if they'd play up Kampmann's win over Condit and throw it on Fox. Again, I can't see it.

[Blackman]

The more videos I see about the upcoming hyped fight of Tate & Rousey, the more I'm leaning towards Rousey as a favorite winner. Normally I tend to go with the champion but Tate has showed some despicable behaviour going into that fight. Rousey may come off as cocky, and her action do in fact align with what is considered as 'cocky', but she is mainly being confident in herself and her abilities without translating these opinions to negativity. You have to respect that in a person. As far as I've seen, she never truly disrespected someone (at least in the public sphere). Like Sonnen, she is clearly adept at promoting one's career ventures. Sonnen likes to badmouth his opponent often and get to his head, but does he really mean it? He doesn't seem like the "bullying sort" and is in fact showing respect for his opponent in the way he interacts with them. Respect, however, begins by acknowledgement. A champion can IMO not be seen avoiding eye contact, not giving people the light of day,... Kind of what Tate's seemingly doing at the moment, which is not at all the behaviour you should demonstrate as a champion. It's not really sending a positive message to your many fans and is especially not the way to gain more.

 

The way I see it, Rousey has created nothing but positivity as an output to her media outlets. Her increasing followers are a proof of that. I am looking at the big picture here, and it might be better if the haters would do that too. Obviously there are some arguable points here. She did leapfrog over the other contenders and still needs to prove herself to some people. Her 'insults' might irritate her - which btw is totally Tate's own fault as you can choose not to let them get you down - but might just be based on reality which renders them a factual note. It's not her fault that she's projecting her self-doubt on Rousey, a possibility Rousey herself actually brought up in an interview (which makes me respect her even more). I do respect Tate as a fighter. Just not as a champion (yet). Anderson Silva got a lot of heat for disrespecting his opponents during the match, but did he truly disrespect them? Pointing out obvious flaws in someone's game by 'dancing' around is pretty helpful behavior in my book, and a wake-up call for an opponent. The fact that he bows to his opponent every time is all the proof I need to call him a true champion. Calling your opponent succesful only because she is 'pretty': thàt's insulting and disrespectful. (she even said: ("being pretty gets you in before women who are 'less feminine'.". wow, good going, champ)

 

Tate is a nice person altogether, but should really learn to be positive in her approach, show better assessment of real life situations and just present herself as much more of a champion. Now, these are obviously learning experiences that we all encounter during our lives. The last thing you need to do, however, is dictating someone else that she still has lots to learn in her 'newly' chosen discipline, while knowing little to nothing about her opponent's state of competence. Sure, there is uncertainty in her credibility, but that also makes for an interesting fight. I personally also feel she seems to have a better grip of how MMA works (solely based on the limited media experiences I witnessed); and not just the business aspects but the actual fighting game as well.

 

Watching those interviews is actually a good exercise in creating a positive or negative image about oneself. (edit: but this little post is obviously gotten a little too big for what it intentionally was supposed to be)

[Target Practice]

Fitch isn't fighting anyone on a winning streak after that big loss unless it's an eleventh-hour replacement. Fitch vs Story/Brenneman?

 

Alves and Kampman are both a good few fights away from title contention. Alves is 2-3 in his last five, nowhere near the belt. Kampman is closer but even if he beats Alves, he'll need a couple of big W's. Kampman, if he wins, vs Ellenberger?

 

Kos vs Hendricks is the number one contender fight for me. That fight is in early May, which could set up a potential fight between the winner and Condit in August. Winner of that fights GSP late November/early December. This leaves Condit without a fight from Feb till August, but who else is there, seriously?

 

The only other thing they could do on PPV as of right now is Kos vs Condit...I just don't see it. Condit vs Ellenberger 2 on Fox could work I guess, but I don't think they're ready to pull the trigger with Jake yet.

 

Someone asked me if Kampmann mows through Alves, if they'd play up Kampmann's win over Condit and throw it on Fox. Again, I can't see it.

 

I hope for the sanity of us all that we don't end up anywhere near any situation where Jon Fitch and Charlie Brenneman are in the same cage - I don't think the human mind could process a match that dull. A Story/Fitch fight is potentially interesting if only thanks to Rick Story's 'bull in a china shop' approach to standup, but barring a second flash KO in succession, I can't see any other result than Fitch dragging Story out into deep water and drowning him with the usual Fitch grinding - if Brenneman did it to him, Fitch would likely have no trouble.

Far be it from me to trump Jon Fitch, as I think the guy is painfully dull to watch, but apart from that flash KO loss to Hendricks, who else has he lost to? GSP, obviously, and then... well, you have to go back to 2002 when he got KO'd by Wilson Gouveia - I don't think you should be dropping him back as far as Rick Story just based on one KO.

 

Problem is, Josh Koscheck. There's no way in hell -barring an outbreak of Ebola limited entirely to the other members of the UFC's Welterweight division- that Koscheck is going to get another shot at GSP - it's been proven twice now (and very very conclusively both times) that he couldn't beat GSP if he was armed to the teeth and had a two-minute headstart. He should probably be being used as the gatekeeper to a title shot - he's going to get beaten every time by the elite guys (Nick Diaz, Carlos Condit, GSP), but he's still a step above most of the rest of the competition, although that's also pretty debatable after the Mike Brown performance. Either way, if he picks up a couple more wins over some of the other contenders and GSP beats Condit when he returns, he's going to give Dana one hell of a headache, because no-one wants to see GSP/Koz III.

 

There are two other names out there that haven't been mentioned yet though, although one is officially "retired" - Rory MacDonald and BJ Penn. MacDonald is tearing through the WW division right now, and the only loss on his record? A razor thin loss to Carlos Condit where he got stopped right at the end of the third in a fight he might well have been winning up to that point.

Penn is potentially a good matchup for someone if he decides he really does want to carry on - a BJ Penn/Josh Koscheck fight is something I'd watch with interest. Only problem there is he's coming off a pretty decisive loss to Diaz, and he's likely not going to be too interested in fighting someone unless it's a direct eliminator for a title shot.

 

As it stands, the guy with the strongest case for a shot at Condit's interim title is probably Ellenberger, but even then it's not an absolute nailed on certainty. Maybe the best thing for the UFC might be for Condit to just wait it out for GSP to get back - it's not like it's going to be a year or more before he returns, and in the meantime it would allow them to sort out the muddle of semi-contenders into a couple of legitimate ones.

[ampulator]

The more videos I see about the upcoming hyped fight of Tate & Rousey, the more I'm leaning towards Rousey as a favorite winner. Normally I tend to go with the champion but Tate has showed some despicable behaviour going into that fight. Rousey may come off as cocky, and her action do in fact align with what is considered as 'cocky', but she is mainly being confident in herself and her abilities without translating these opinions to negativity. You have to respect that in a person. As far as I've seen, she never truly disrespected someone (at least in the public sphere). Like Sonnen, she is clearly adept at promoting one's career ventures. Sonnen likes to badmouth his opponent often and get to his head, but does he really mean it? He doesn't seem like the "bullying sort" and is in fact showing respect for his opponent in the way he interacts with them. Respect, however, begins by acknowledgement. A champion can IMO not be seen avoiding eye contact, not giving people the light of day,... Kind of what Tate's seemingly doing at the moment, which is not at all the behaviour you should demonstrate as a champion. It's not really sending a positive message to your many fans and is especially not the way to gain more.

 

The way I see it, Rousey has created nothing but positivity as an output to her media outlets. Her increasing followers are a proof of that. I am looking at the big picture here, and it might be better if the haters would do that too. Obviously there are some arguable points here. She did leapfrog over the other contenders and still needs to prove herself to some people. Her 'insults' might irritate her - which btw is totally Tate's own fault as you can choose not to let them get you down - but might just be based on reality which renders them a factual note. It's not her fault that she's projecting her self-doubt on Rousey, a possibility Rousey herself actually brought up in an interview (which makes me respect her even more). I do respect Tate as a fighter. Just not as a champion (yet). Anderson Silva got a lot of heat for disrespecting his opponents during the match, but did he truly disrespect them? Pointing out obvious flaws in someone's game by 'dancing' around is pretty helpful behavior in my book, and a wake-up call for an opponent. The fact that he bows to his opponent every time is all the proof I need to call him a true champion. Calling your opponent succesful only because she is 'pretty': thàt's insulting and disrespectful. (she even said: ("being pretty gets you in before women who are 'less feminine'.". wow, good going, champ)

 

Tate is a nice person altogether, but should really learn to be positive in her approach, show better assessment of real life situations and just present herself as much more of a champion. Now, these are obviously learning experiences that we all encounter during our lives. The last thing you need to do, however, is dictating someone else that she still has lots to learn in her 'newly' chosen discipline, while knowing little to nothing about her opponent's state of competence. Sure, there is uncertainty in her credibility, but that also makes for an interesting fight. I personally also feel she seems to have a better grip of how MMA works (solely based on the limited media experiences I witnessed); and not just the business aspects but the actual fighting game as well.

 

Watching those interviews is actually a good exercise in creating a positive or negative image about oneself. (edit: but this little post is obviously gotten a little too big for what it intentionally was supposed to be)

I disagree almost completely on Tate. You have to understand how she feels-she wanted that Kaufman fight, BAD. She wanted to prove that she could have beaten Kaufman. Other than a money standpoint, she loses out on Rousey. If she wins, she fought someone she have beaten. If she loses, she's just lost to a Judoka that has much less wrestling and BJJ experience, and on top of that, less MMA and striking experience as well.

 

It's Money vs. everything else that matters to a fighter. It delays her chance of redeeming her only loss, she's fighting against a fighter with much less experience in MMA, wrestling, and BJJ, and striking.

[brashleyholland]

 

Far be it from me to trump Jon Fitch, as I think the guy is painfully dull to watch, but apart from that flash KO loss to Hendricks, who else has he lost to? GSP, obviously, and then... well, you have to go back to 2002 when he got KO'd by Wilson Gouveia - I don't think you should be dropping him back as far as Rick Story just based on one KO.

 

It's not just the one KO, it's that Joe Silva and Dana White have no time for the guy A) because of the way he fights and B) because of the contract dispute he had with them a couple of years back. They matched him up with Mike Pierce in the dudes second UFC fight when Fitch was *winning*, so I see know reason why they wont give him someone on the level of Story after a decisive loss.

 

It's been proven twice now (and very very conclusively both times) that he couldn't beat GSP if he was armed to the teeth and had a two-minute headstart.

 

LOL'd hard at that! In fact there's a good chance I will steal it for my next article on the subject :-p (Credit will be given of course!)

 

He should probably be being used as the gatekeeper to a title shot - he's going to get beaten every time by the elite guys (Nick Diaz, Carlos Condit, GSP), but he's still a step above most of the rest of the competition

 

I think that Kos is an absolute nightmare fight for Diaz. There's a reason they never let Tyron Woodley anywhere near him in Strikeforce. Otherwise yeah, he's 'that' guy who's just a little better than most guys...but has already been trounced by the champ. Similar situation to Fitch before the Hendricks KO.

 

There are two other names out there that haven't been mentioned yet though, although one is officially "retired" - Rory MacDonald and BJ Penn. MacDonald is tearing through the WW division right now, and the only loss on his record? A razor thin loss to Carlos Condit where he got stopped right at the end of the third in a fight he might well have been winning up to that point.

Penn is potentially a good matchup for someone if he decides he really does want to carry on - a BJ Penn/Josh Koscheck fight is something I'd watch with interest. Only problem there is he's coming off a pretty decisive loss to Diaz, and he's likely not going to be too interested in fighting someone unless it's a direct eliminator for a title shot.

 

Good shouts there. If MacDonald beats Mills, then a title eliminator against Penn could work. Penn is a guy who could probably get a shot based on name value alone (see Belfort/Couture)...if Rory smashes him, that's gonna make him a star.

 

As it stands, the guy with the strongest case for a shot at Condit's interim title is probably Ellenberger, but even then it's not an absolute nailed on certainty. Maybe the best thing for the UFC might be for Condit to just wait it out for GSP to get back - it's not like it's going to be a year or more before he returns, and in the meantime it would allow them to sort out the muddle of semi-contenders into a couple of legitimate ones.

 

I'm in favour of Condit waiting it out...but with the massive schedule this year I think he'll be pressured into fighting someone. Boo.

[bigtplaystew]

I think Condit should fight if there's a clear number one. And me seeing Condit the way I do, I don't know that he'd reject a title fight before GSP, as much as he wants that fight (especially coming off the injury).

 

However... I still dont think that Ellenberger is a clear number one. Yea he's in contention, but it's not a fight I or anyone else is really demanding to see. If Hendricks wins he'll be right there too.

 

This is EXACTLY why I love MMA. While certain divisions are locked down with who everyone agrees is number one, we'll always have situations like this where we get to debate and argue. And the reason why I'm a UFC mark is they always try to give us the fight that they think we want. Do they deliver everytime? No. But they are excellent at putting quality cards together and making us want to see more from top to bottom.

[Target Practice]

It's not just the one KO, it's that Joe Silva and Dana White have no time for the guy A) because of the way he fights and B) because of the contract dispute he had with them a couple of years back. They matched him up with Mike Pierce in the dudes second UFC fight when Fitch was *winning*, so I see know reason why they wont give him someone on the level of Story after a decisive loss.

 

Oh yeah, there's no love lost between Fitch and the UFC (and I actually kind of side with the UFC on this one - they have to sell PPVs in order to run their business, and Jon Fitch's fighting style isn't going to get fans lining up to throw their hard-earned away to watch it). I'm just looking at it from a match-making point of view - Fitch and Ellenberger's respective strengths and weaknesses line up pretty nicely right now, and I think it'd be an interesting match.

 

LOL'd hard at that! In fact there's a good chance I will steal it for my next article on the subject :-p (Credit will be given of course!)

Heh, no worries. I'm always happy to provide more ways for people to laugh at Josh Koscheck.

 

I think that Kos is an absolute nightmare fight for Diaz. There's a reason they never let Tyron Woodley anywhere near him in Strikeforce. Otherwise yeah, he's 'that' guy who's just a little better than most guys...but has already been trounced by the champ. Similar situation to Fitch before the Hendricks KO.

Unfortunately, I was late to the game with MMA beyond the UFC, and Strikeforce is/was damn near impossible to find on UK television, so I haven't actually seen all that much of Nick beyond the odd fight here and there - is there a pronounced weakness against wrestlers there then? Because I would love to see a fight between Diaz and Koscheck - it's win/win, you don't care who gets his arm raised as long as you see them both get punched in the face a lot.

 

Good shouts there. If MacDonald beats Mills, then a title eliminator against Penn could work. Penn is a guy who could probably get a shot based on name value alone (see Belfort/Couture)...if Rory smashes him, that's gonna make him a star.

MacDonald/Penn would be a great fight, but I'd be very surprised if it happened - Penn has too much to lose and not a lot to gain in a fight he probably wouldn't even be a favourite for. Plus the UFC seem to be really taking their time with Rory and building him up slowly - bearing in mind he's fought Condit, Nate Diaz and Mike Pyle (who I think is a lot more dangerous than he gets credit for), Che Mills was a really strange choice for his next fight, having only had one fight in the UFC (albeit a pretty impressive win over limited opposition). I reckon they believe that MacDonald is good enough to beat GSP, and rather than throw him in before he's ready, they're giving him time to get the experience he'll no doubt need.

[CoutureLegend]

He should probably be being used as the gatekeeper to a title shot - he's going to get beaten every time by the elite guys (Nick Diaz, Carlos Condit, GSP)

 

You really think Diaz & Condit would beat Koscheck? As Brashley said, wrestling has always been Diaz' achilles heel so unless Koscheck tries to stand with him, i don't see Diaz getting much done in that fight. The Condit fight would be more interesting but still i'd expect Koscheck to beat him.

 

The more videos I see about the upcoming hyped fight of Tate & Rousey, the more I'm leaning towards Rousey as a favorite winner.

 

I'm surprised anyone would pick Tate in the first place to be honest. I don't see any way that Tate can deal with the Judo ability of Rousey. Being an olympic-level judokan, she's light-years ahead of anyone in WMMA. Sure she has limited MMA experience but the level of competition she has faced in Judo is far higher than the level of fighter's Tate has faced in MMA so i'd be truly amazed if Miesha Tate beats Rousey.

[ampulator]

I'm surprised anyone would pick Tate in the first place to be honest. I don't see any way that Tate can deal with the Judo ability of Rousey. Being an olympic-level judokan, she's light-years ahead of anyone in WMMA. Sure she has limited MMA experience but the level of competition she has faced in Judo is far higher than the level of fighter's Tate has faced in MMA so i'd be truly amazed if Miesha Tate beats Rousey.

While I do see Rousey beating Tate, if Rousey loses, then many people will have to eat their words... more so than Rousey.

[Fantabulous]

Koscheck would wrestle**** Diaz something fierce. If not for the last half of the third round of the Sanchez fight, Ellenberger would be one strong win away from a title shot. As it is, I think he needs two strong wins to get a title shot but I don't fancy his chance against Condit whenever he fights him next. If Hendricks blows out Koscheck, I can see him getting a title shot at the winner of Condit/GSP.