The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

The problem with building stars, though, at least with MMA, is that, there's a chance that a big or rising star can lose one match and cost his momentum. The same can't happen with wrestling, because the results are... well, you know, for wrestling.

 

Losing isn't really a problem in Japan (as much as it is in the states, for example) within reason. I mean, can anyone name a big Japanese MMA draw who went undefeated for a long stretch? I'm thinking Kid Yamamoto (he had a loss, but it was a 30 second doctor stoppage from a cut) was the only big name that fits that bill.

 

I think it's going to take all the stars to align before Japan can produce another 'icon'...good fighter, charismatic, women/fashionable youth friendly, tough....and there's gonna have to be more than one of them.

 

Even if that happens, you have to convince the TV networks of one of the world's most fad-based consumer nations that something old is new again.

[LoNdOn]

Losing isn't really a problem in Japan (as much as it is in the states, for example) within reason. I mean, can anyone name a big Japanese MMA draw who went undefeated for a long stretch? I'm thinking Kid Yamamoto (he had a loss, but it was a 30 second doctor stoppage from a cut) was the only big name that fits that bill.

 

I think it's going to take all the stars to align before Japan can produce another 'icon'...good fighter, charismatic, women/fashionable youth friendly, tough....and there's gonna have to be more than one of them.

 

Even if that happens, you have to convince the TV networks of one of the world's most fad-based consumer nations that something old is new again.

 

What the Japanese MMA scene could really do with are a couple of Kazushi Sakurabas circa 2000. Somebody who can get the crowd behind them and entertain as well as putting on impressive performances. I have to agree with brashley though, I just don't see it happening any time soon.

[jesterx7769]

Well even though I have only started watching DREAM events since 09 Dynamite then of course 10 dynamite, there unfortunately seems to be many many problems.

 

 

- UFC: PRIDE of course could be argued as the best. They had top fighters with top fights. Now boom, the UFC is THE top promotion with THE top talent, 9/10 top guys are with them which makes it hard to compete from that stand point in numerous ways. First you cant say you have the best, second, because of that your fights clearly aren't the best quality (in terms of best fighter vs. best fighter) or most important since it doesn't involve the best.

- Talent Stealing: More and more guys that used to fight in Japan now fight in the UFC or Strikeforce making it hard of course to promote your home grown guys when they are somewhere else.

- Talent losing overseas: As if it was not bad enough your fighters are in the US, they consistently lose to top level American fighters. Okami has been fighting for what seems like forever in the UFC and is finally getting a chance. Aoki was embarrassed, Gomi has failed to produce, just a few examples.

- Using other talent: FEG continue using other talent on their shows which is very good short term, but hurts long term. Overeem for example is useless in MMA fights IMO long run. You just crowned him your HW interim champ, if SF tourny goes well, odds are he will not even compete for DREAM this year making a joke out of them and their HW title. They also use other guys as well he was just an example, good short term, very bad long term. Hence why you never see the UFC do it.

- Freak Shows: They can be fun and entertaining but if you want to build yourself as a legitimate MMA company, you can't rely on it.

- Mixing in K-1: I know this is just FEG and DREAM but since DREAM is the biggest in Japan right now, you cannot mix them. It may good for FEG and help get some viewers in the short term but it does't help your over all MMA.

- Reliance on Entertainment: I love watching the entertaining aspect but lets face it, if you want funny/goofy you will watching something else. Hence why their Dynamite!! ratings are going down. Without emphasizing solid sporting action it just becomes regular entertainment which there are other venues.

- Finances: I saw where they are and have been having financial issues which obviously good.

- Lack of draw from US/other markets: I know the US isn't king of all kings but right now with the UFC being based in America and all those fans DREAM or other companies need to take advantage of that. I know they are on HDNET sometimes but here is my biggest concern...the ring. I know some will give me heat for this but it is hard to fit in universal when you are doing old traditional things. For a global example, this would be like playing soccer/football on an oval field then wondering why people just cannot appreciate/understand it just because FIFA uses a rectangle

- Older stars: It seems most of Japan's top fighters like Minowaman (sp?)are older/washed up and it is hard to keep drawing on them when they are not very good. This may be good for entertainment but what happens when they finally do retire? Who do you rely on then?

- Finally, no major exclusive star. This is of course very hard to do but can help out tremendously. If they had a fighter in any weight class who was running through Japanese talent AND american talent it would give them reason to stick out their tongue at the UFC (ala Fedor and M-1 before) but as of now, they have no one even close.

- Finally consistency. I was reading the interview with the FEG guy and how he isn't sure about t heir next DREAM event and all the details blah blah. thats horse crap. How do you expect fans to look forward to something that isn't there? That is IMO THE best thing the UFC does, every month you know they have a PPV on, no matter how close you follow. Even if DREAM did a conservative every 4-6 months, but you NEED something.

[LoNdOn]

Just watched the Santiago vs Misaki II fight again. Really nice fight but I still don't think I would have thrown the towel in if I was Misaki's corner. Having said that, I think the referee would have stepped in before the final 24 seconds had elapsed. Had there been over a minute on the clock I most likely would have thrown the towel in, but with 24 seconds to go.......not so sure. Don't take that as me saying they did the wrong thing by throwing the towel in either, I just think I would have left the decision to the ref at that point in the fight.

[brashleyholland]

Just watched the Santiago vs Misaki II fight again. Really nice fight but I still don't think I would have thrown the towel in if I was Misaki's corner. Having said that, I think the referee would have stepped in before the final 24 seconds had elapsed. Had there been over a minute on the clock I most likely would have thrown the towel in, but with 24 seconds to go.......not so sure. Don't take that as me saying they did the wrong thing by throwing the towel in either, I just think I would have left the decision to the ref at that point in the fight.

 

I'll share a story with you all. About 7 years ago, I was cornering a very good friend of mine. I'd cornered one or two training partners before in various sports (mainly as a bucket carrier, lol), but this was the first time I cornered someone who I considered a good friend outside of the gym. People say it's a not the best idea to corner very close friends and it's a terrible idea to corner family. I was going to find out why. It was also the first time I'd cornered someone in anything remotely resembling a relevant fight.

 

This guy was 30, nothing special, but he had been fighting (mostly unlicensed) to supplement his living for about 10 years. He hadn't had a single decent payday, but he would get regular work as a sparring partner and would take pretty much any fight offered to him. He had a criminal record for some fairly heinous stuff in his youth, so he struggled to get a decent job. His work as a sparring partner and taking random fights literally kept his head above water as he scraped by on bar and doorman work.

 

Anyway, there had been an incident involving a stolen wallet at the bar he worked at. My friend had managed to recover said wallet and return it to the owner the same evening, who turned out to be the brother of a fairly well connected boxing manager in Germany. As a thank you, he offered to get my friend a look-in with his brother the next time he was visiting. He was told he might be able to get him a couple of decent paydays a year.

 

So about four months pass, and this friend of mine is a man possessed. He started training hard; I could tell that this simple favour was to him the opportunity of a lifetime. The call came through for a fight; eight rounds of boxing against a professional punchbag. I actually ended up cornering him as a last minute thing; the second man couldn't get off work and I was there, so I stepped up to bat.

 

Then came the fight, and it was rough. This guy was no punchbag, he was tough as nails and dirty as a Chilean Miner's underpants. I'd literally never seen anything like it up close before, let alone with someone I was so close to. Lots of blood, headbutts, elbows...it was a fight, not a boxing match. My friend started well, he won the first two, maybe three rounds but he was spent. He was dropped at the end of the 3rd but it was ruled a slip. In the 4th he was dropped twice...he was getting beaten up, but more than that he was getting hurt. The referee warned our corner twice after 4th that he was going to stop it.

 

His eye was a right old mess, but what was really troubling me was his incoherence. He was dropped again in the fifth and I was almost looking to the ref to stop the fight. Before the sixth he was barely responsive, but I didn't feel it was my place to say. He went down again from a nothing punch, and I told Joop, the lead cornerman, to throw in the towel. I was told in no uncertain terms that the towel was not to be thrown in. He didn't go down in the 6th or 7th, and actually won those rounds by virtue of two docked points for fouls by his opponent, but by this point I was genuinely concerned. I asked him if he was ok before the final round and his reply was gibberish. Joop pushed me aside and as the fighters went out he told me that if I was going to throw the towel, I should leave. I stayed, and as my friend was put in the corner by another barrage of punches, I saw his legs sag and threw my towel at the ref. The ref caught it but waited a good 10 seconds before finally stepping in as my boy folded in the corner. I went to get in the ring, but was held back by Joop and told to "F**k off".

 

My friend went to the hospital after the fight and all I could think of was if he was ok. I was angry at his coach, angry at the ref, but mostly concerned for my friend's health. Nobody would answer their phones and fearing the worst I got a taxi to the hospital, where I again bumped into Joop. I was told to leave and that he didn't want to see me.

 

I've never actually spoken to the guy face to face since, he never forgave me for 'taking the fight from him'. I was told I was no longer welcome at the boxing club he trained at, and at one point I was told he was going to 'come after me' before a couple of people had a word with him and told him to drop it. I found out through mutual friends that he needed surgery on his cheek and now has serious vision problems in his left eye as a result of the fight.

 

I'd only been looking out for his safety where others clearly weren't. I was genuinely fearful that something bad was going to happen, and I'm obviously someone who is desensitised to violence, so I don't feel like I was overreacting. It didn't matter to him though. As far as he was concerned, he had just over a minute to go, and honestly felt he could have won the fight. Delusional, yes - but that's the way it was.

 

Some people say that throwing in the towel is a tough decision to make, but for me it was the easiest thing in the world. After that incident though, I was made to feel like I'd ruined someone's life, and it genuinely tore me up. I've never cornered a close friend since, although I'm going to in a couple of months. I've asked myself a ton of times if throwing in a towel is worth losing a friendship over...but I realise that it's a selfish question to ask. Nothing is worth risking someone's health or life over, not even a friendship. 99% of fighters are a special breed; they don't know when enough is enough.

 

So when I corner my friend in a few months time, I won't care if he hates me for the rest of his life...if the towel needs throwing, I'll throw it.

[jesterx7769]

I think its just part of our stupid alpha male nature. You guys are European but look at the NFL and QB concussions. A MLB player got hit in th knee while sliding in June and got a concussion, out for the rest of the year even the play offs. An NFL QB is considered a wimp if he sits out a week with a concussion.

 

In a contact sport especially like boxing in your examples, you are so incoherent you are not thinking of playing catch with your son tomorrow, or grand son in 30 years, instead its "if I quit now people will think less of me" which in the long run when you are in that field playing catch with grandson and not in a wheel chair...who cares?

[brashleyholland]

 

- UFC: PRIDE of course could be argued as the best. They had top fighters with top fights. Now boom, the UFC is THE top promotion with THE top talent, 9/10 top guys are with them which makes it hard to compete from that stand point in numerous ways. First you cant say you have the best, second, because of that your fights clearly aren't the best quality (in terms of best fighter vs. best fighter) or most important since it doesn't involve the best.

 

Japanese promotions have never tried to compete with the UFC though. Nor do they need to. Pride had a tiny PPV deal in the US and were doing pathetic numbers. Roster comparisons are irrelevant from a talent standpoint, as even when Pride (maybe) had the best roster, nobody in the US cared. Similarly, people in Japan weren't tuning in because it was 'better than the UFC'.

 

 

- Talent losing overseas: As if it was not bad enough your fighters are in the US, they consistently lose to top level American fighters. Okami has been fighting for what seems like forever in the UFC and is finally getting a chance. Aoki was embarrassed, Gomi has failed to produce, just a few examples.

 

It doesn't matter. Nobody in Japan knows what Strikeforce is. Only the hardcore fight fans, the equivalent to supergeek western fans who can tell you who the current Shooto 132lb champion is (it's Shuichiro Katsumura) that care about these fights. Japanese MMA isn't taking a hit because Gomi and Aoki are getting tooled in the US. If they meant that much to the Japanese fight industry, they wouldn't be fighting in the US in the first place.

 

- Using other talent: FEG continue using other talent on their shows which is very good short term, but hurts long term. Overeem for example is useless in MMA fights IMO long run. You just crowned him your HW interim champ, if SF tourny goes well, odds are he will not even compete for DREAM this year making a joke out of them and their HW title. They also use other guys as well he was just an example, good short term, very bad long term. Hence why you never see the UFC do it.

 

It doesn't. They've always done it, and it's always been financially and promotionally successful for them. That's why Dynamite, featuring MMA/K-1 and various other fighters/attractions has been the biggest show of the calendar for almost a decade.

 

How is Overeem useless? He's one of the biggest stars in the Japanese fight game at the moment. Dream don't have a heavyweight division, but it looks good from a promotional standpoint to have their belt on a guy who is the K-1 champ and has more title belts than testicles.

 

- Freak Shows: They can be fun and entertaining but if you want to build yourself as a legitimate MMA company, you can't rely on it.

 

I don't think a promotion in Japan has ever relied on freakshow fights. But look at K-1's most financially successful years - they were the years of Sapp, Botha, etc. It's all about getting the balance right.

 

- Mixing in K-1: I know this is just FEG and DREAM but since DREAM is the biggest in Japan right now, you cannot mix them. It may good for FEG and help get some viewers in the short term but it does't help your over all MMA.

 

Why not? History has proven otherwise.

 

- Reliance on Entertainment: I love watching the entertaining aspect but lets face it, if you want funny/goofy you will watching something else. Hence why their Dynamite!! ratings are going down. Without emphasizing solid sporting action it just becomes regular entertainment which there are other venues.

 

Reliance on entertainment has absolutely nothing to do with why the Dynamite ratings are going down. The serious cards, without the added 'entertainment' fights, are seeing much, much bigger rating drops.

 

 

- Lack of draw from US/other markets: I know the US isn't king of all kings but right now with the UFC being based in America and all those fans DREAM or other companies need to take advantage of that.

 

Japanese MMA, even in it's biggest boom period, never made money in the US. Japanese people in general simply aren't interested in the UFC/Strikeforce, and American's similarly aren't interested in Dream/SRC.

 

I know they are on HDNET sometimes but here is my biggest concern...the ring. I know some will give me heat for this but it is hard to fit in universal when you are doing old traditional things. For a global example, this would be like playing soccer/football on an oval field then wondering why people just cannot appreciate/understand it just because FIFA uses a rectangle

 

The ring, that has been used in boxing and wrestling in the US for 100 years? This ring is far more recognisable as a combat sports fixture worldwide than the cage.

 

I think what you're trying to say is that UFC fans are conditioned to watching fights in a cage, but that's irrelevant to the Japanese scene. Japanese MMA is a TV product, and TV companies don't like the cage because the ring makes for better, more viewer friendly visuals, both in terms of logistics and the imagery.

 

- Older stars: It seems most of Japan's top fighters like Minowaman (sp?)are older/washed up and it is hard to keep drawing on them when they are not very good. This may be good for entertainment but what happens when they finally do retire? Who do you rely on then?

 

This is a big piece of the puzzle, for sure. Fewer good fighters seem to be coming through the ranks, and now that there is no money in the Japanese fight game anymore, a career in the sport isn't as attractive a prospect as it was five years ago. It's a vicious circle.

 

- Finally, no major exclusive star. This is of course very hard to do but can help out tremendously. If they had a fighter in any weight class who was running through Japanese talent AND american talent it would give them reason to stick out their tongue at the UFC (ala Fedor and M-1 before) but as of now, they have no one even close.

 

You're missing the point again. It's not about 'sticking their tongue out' at anyone; it's about getting the general demand for MMA in Japan at such a level that the big TV networks will open their chequebooks again. How does sticking their tongue out at the UFC by having a dominant fighter help them get the women and children of Japan selling out the 40,000 seat arenas and garnering the multi-million viewer ratings?

 

You can't look at Japanese MMA like a game of WMMA. In the real world, Alpha-1 does not need to compete with, mimic or take cues from GAMMA in order to be massively successful. They need to get rid of the apathy, boost consumer confidence and boost commercial confidence. They won't do any of that by trying to do things the UFC way, or by competing on their playing field.

[jesterx7769]

So if everything I said is wrong and everything has worked for them in the past and present then why is the biggest Japanese company struggling to seem to even put on shows when the UFC (who Japan or no one else cares about apparently) is making $$$$$$$ in countries all over the world? We only have about 10-15 solid years of MMA being a major sport to look at historically anyways and most of Japan's was with PRIDE which is clearly a different situation.

 

While they aren't necessarily competing HEAD TO HEAD with the UFC ala WWF/WCW back in the day, the UFC is getting in more and more house holds and is taking more and more foreign fighters away. So how is that not the least bit competing or caring what they need to do again? You don't think Japaense fans would have liked to see Gomi on Dynamite? (just for a random example)

 

You also say they don't care about the US, then why are they on HDNet, bringing in American fighters, then sending their fighters over there "if its all about the Japanese populace?

 

Great Overeem has more belts than testicles, too bad he won't be fighting there any time soon if Coker gets his way, real solid business plan there. I guess so many people cared thats why, once again, ratings continued to drop and they continue to lack sponsors. Wouldn't it be better if a regular Japanese DREAM fighter had that belt?

 

I am by no means a Japaense MMA expert but after making a point to go against everything I said it by no means has any evidence to support them with their latest outings. You just had to criticize it all without showing those things are helping them currently or will help them in the future. Clearly all Japanese MMA will not "Die Forever" but it seems they are far far off from becoming a factor in grand aspect of the world.

[Tag01]

Lesner vs JDS on Tuf will be entertaining but who cares? I know i'm not going to. I don't want to see JDS fight Brock it's a waste of time and we all know it. JDS hits hard like Cain and Shane, we all know what Brocks gonna do once he gets hit run away. Strikeforce is bringing to the table something that we should all as MMA fans drool over. Strikeforce is giving what the fans want, we want to see great fights and the HW tournament promises that from Fedor and Silva to Rogers and Barnett i know i can't wait....this is a great time to be a fan of MMA guys.

 

It will be the either the highest or second highest rated season of the show ever, so lots of people will care. The announcement was on the main page of espn.com all day. Its a big story.

[The Shape]

Plus the fight itself isn't such a foregone conclusion, JDS will likely get taken down and there's no telling whether he'll pop back up like Cain did.

 

Furthermore, my opinion of this SF tournament heavily declined today when they said the title isn't on the line at all. So Reem could lose first round and still be champ, lol.

[Daffanka]

It's a meaningless title, who cares?

 

I'd like to see as many five rounders as possible but none of the Strikeforce belts mean anything and if the rest of the tournament bouts are going to be three rounds then it sounds fine that the title isn't on the line.

[ProphetX]

Man I was just commenting today about how much these forums are much different than when I surf to news websites to read and see nothing but SF bashing.

 

Yeah.....Ok so the titles are meaningless. Nevermind the fact that this could be an athletic commission? Or the fact that if Overeem doesn't win the first fight the title could change hands a few times -anyways- before the final bout?

 

I mean I'm not thrilled about the decision but going so far as to just dump on all of the titles just because this wasn't to someone's liking is a shame.

 

I guess thats why I rarely read comment boards anymore about MMA and stick to the news. All negativity in = all negativity out and I don't have the time to blindly hate on someone or something.

 

That being said I'm still excited about Strikeforce's card and I'm really starting to get excited about the moves Bellator has made to get on TV (I need something to replace WEC with now that they are gone).

[LoNdOn]

Man I was just commenting today about how much these forums are much different than when I surf to news websites to read and see nothing but SF bashing.

 

Yeah.....Ok so the titles are meaningless. Nevermind the fact that this could be an athletic commission? Or the fact that if Overeem doesn't win the first fight the title could change hands a few times -anyways- before the final bout?

 

I mean I'm not thrilled about the decision but going so far as to just dump on all of the titles just because this wasn't to someone's liking is a shame.

 

I guess thats why I rarely read comment boards anymore about MMA and stick to the news. All negativity in = all negativity out and I don't have the time to blindly hate on someone or something.

 

That being said I'm still excited about Strikeforce's card and I'm really starting to get excited about the moves Bellator has made to get on TV (I need something to replace WEC with now that they are gone).

 

With all respect, if Overeem doesn't win in the first round, does he deserve to be the champion? Surely if he loses to Werdum in an MMA fight in Strikeforce, he should lose the Strikeforce Heavyweight title. If Werdum should lose in the semi-final of the tournament, then whoever beats him deserves the belt.

 

In my humble opinion, if Overeem is in the tournament, he should be defending the title. Otherwise take him out of the tournament and have him face the eventual winner.

 

If you take the fights as being individual unto themselves then you would expect Overeem to be defending his title in a fight against Werdum anyway, so why not have the title on the line in that fight? If Alistair is the better fighter he will beat Werdum. If he loses and keeps his belt, Strikeforce have just put themselves up poop creek without a paddle. Just because the fight is being labelled as being part of a tournament, it doesn't mean that the title shouldn't be on the line.

 

Say Barnett goes on to win the tournament, what does it matter? He isn't going to be the champion, so by definition he isn't the best. The only winner in this tournament is going to be Alistair Overeem, even if he loses he will still be the champion. I don't understand Strikeforce's logic on this one.

[ProphetX]

I don't either but I'm not blasting all the whole org for the sake of being apart of the naysayers. There are things I dislike about UFC, but at the end of the day they have fighters I want to see and I'll tolerate/tune out that which I don't like.

 

It's like as soon as MMA went mainstream every armchair quarterback came out of the wood work and thinks they 'know' whats right and whats wrong when in the end the vast majority of us don't. We're just consumers. And as consumers we have the right to not like something and/or support it but thats about it.

 

I want him to defend it the whole way too. But just because he doesn't do it doesn't mean SF has to come out and explain, in fine detail, why exactly some things do and do not happen anymore than UFC/Bellator/Dream/etc. Nor does it mean Melendez's hard work to earn a title is trash, or Diaz, or Jacare, or Cavalcante, Cyborg, or even Coenen.

 

We can disagree that the title should be defended each time, and we can not like it because it isn't, we can't just blindly hate on other things or people 'just cause'.

[LoNdOn]

I don't either but I'm not blasting all the whole org for the sake of being apart of the naysayers. There are things I dislike about UFC, but at the end of the day they have fighters I want to see and I'll tolerate/tune out that which I don't like.

 

It's like as soon as MMA went mainstream every armchair quarterback came out of the wood work and thinks they 'know' whats right and whats wrong when in the end the vast majority of us don't. We're just consumers. And as consumers we have the right to not like something and/or support it but thats about it.

 

I want him to defend it the whole way too. But just because he doesn't do it doesn't mean SF has to come out and explain, in fine detail, why exactly some things do and do not happen anymore than UFC/Bellator/Dream/etc. Nor does it mean Melendez's hard work to earn a title is trash, or Diaz, or Jacare, or Cavalcante, Cyborg, or even Coenen.

 

We can disagree that the title should be defended each time, and we can not like it because it isn't, we can't just blindly hate on other things or people 'just cause'.

 

Oh no, I'm not saying the other titles are trash, the only thing I am criticising is Strikeforce's decision to not have the belt up for grabs. I keep thinking about it and it just seems for lack of a better word, short-sighted.

 

All this is hypothetical at the moment though as I don't envisage the tournament going down without a major hitch anyway, which is unfortunate to say the least. I am happy that we should get at least some good, relevant fights out of it as at the end of the day that is the modus operandi. I rarely come out and say that something in MMA is "wrong" but on this occassion I think the ball has been dropped.

 

The few things I have really been compelled to criticise besides this was the Phan/Garcia farce, when it was originally announced that Sonnen was getting a rematch with Silva, when it was announced BJ was getting a rematch with Edgar (I still think Edgar won the first fight).

[ProphetX]

I'm not referring to your post, or really any collection of your posts that I can think of (I do more reading than posting here)

 

This is what brought it on :

I'd like to see as many five rounders as possible but none of the Strikeforce belts mean anything and if the rest of the tournament bouts are going to be three rounds then it sounds fine that the title isn't on the line.

 

I've been seeing (what I personally believe) a lot of knee jerk, wide spread, reactions based more off of heresay and dislike than on fact. Granted what Daffanka was pretty tame compared to say.... trolls over at mmajunkie but that is why I decided to comment. I like coming here because people have universally (barring a few exceptions when things get heated or whatever) much better and more informed. So when I saw that comment it made me groan.

[brashleyholland]

Yeah.....Ok so the titles are meaningless. Nevermind the fact that this could be an athletic commission?

 

Well, that's what Scott Coker said on the press call. Unfortunately, he lied.

 

Josh Gross contacted the commissions in Cali, New Jersey, Minnesota and Tennessee...ALL of them said they were fine with 5-round fights in the tourney and ALL of them said that Strikeforce had not contacted them about the possibility of five-round fights.

 

And to be fair, the Strikeforce heavyweight title is meaningless. It's the "World Championship of Beating Up Paul Buentello 3 Years Ago and Brett Rogers Coming Off a Loss."

 

Man I was just commenting today about how much these forums are much different than when I surf to news websites to read and see nothing but SF bashing.

 

I guess thats why I rarely read comment boards anymore about MMA and stick to the news. All negativity in = all negativity out and I don't have the time to blindly hate on someone or something.

 

I don't think you'll find any blind hate here (unless I'm talking about Tim Sylvia or Brandon Vera. I HATE those guys)...only justified constructive criticism. The trouble is, on most MMA boards, things are so black and white in the eyes of 95% of people who use them that anyone who dares criticise anything (justified or not) is a 'hater' and anyone who supports anything is a 'nuthugger'.

 

Take the two above examples. There's no way that any sane person can make the case for Strikeoforce's HW strap meaning anything.

 

And as for Coker's little stunt...it's things like that which cause people to 'hate' on Strikeforce. I mean, is the guy an idiot or something? Did he honestly think that he could lie on a call to a bunch of journalists (guys and gals who get paid to verify things) and get away with it? Or that when the audio of the call got out that the thousands of forum-dwellers wouldn't pull him up on it? One email/phone call is all it takes (and indeed, was all it took) to catch him out. It's a head-scratcher.

[brashleyholland]

 

In my humble opinion, if Overeem is in the tournament, he should be defending the title. Otherwise take him out of the tournament and have him face the eventual winner.

 

 

That's exactly it. Champions should not be in tournaments where they aren't defending their belts. It makes no sense. The Super Six was/is a disaster, but at least titles were/are on the line.

 

Why not have Overeem defend against Werdum midway through the year, setting the tourney up to be Fedor's to lose, then have the tourney winner fight the HW champ this time next year?

[ampulator]

Well, that's what Scott Coker said on the press call. Unfortunately, he lied.

 

Josh Gross contacted the commissions in Cali, New Jersey, Minnesota and Tennessee...ALL of them said they were fine with 5-round fights in the tourney and ALL of them said that Strikeforce had not contacted them about the possibility of five-round fights.

 

And to be fair, the Strikeforce heavyweight title is meaningless. It's the "World Championship of Beating Up Paul Buentello 3 Years Ago and Brett Rogers Coming Off a Loss."

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think you'll find any blind hate here (unless I'm talking about Tim Sylvia or Brandon Vera. I HATE those guys)...only justified constructive criticism. The trouble is, on most MMA boards, things are so black and white in the eyes of 95% of people who use them that anyone who dares criticise anything (justified or not) is a 'hater' and anyone who supports anything is a 'nuthugger'.

 

Take the two above examples. There's no way that any sane person can make the case for Strikeoforce's HW strap meaning anything.

 

And as for Coker's little stunt...it's things like that which cause people to 'hate' on Strikeforce. I mean, is the guy an idiot or something? Did he honestly think that he could lie on a call to a bunch of journalists (guys and gals who get paid to verify things) and get away with it? Or that when the audio of the call got out that the thousands of forum-dwellers wouldn't pull him up on it? One email/phone call is all it takes (and indeed, was all it took) to catch him out. It's a head-scratcher.

Really? When did you hear about this? If it is true... then, damn.

[brashleyholland]

So if everything I said is wrong and everything has worked for them in the past and present then why is the biggest Japanese company struggling to seem to even put on shows when the UFC (who Japan or no one else cares about apparently) is making $$$$$$$ in countries all over the world?

 

Because people don't care for MMA in Japan at the moment. There is no money to put on shows. The business is cyclical and it's in a down cycle. If Dream suddenly hired GSP, Anderson Silva, Brock Lesnar and Shogun, it wouldn't change anything.

 

The UFC's success elsewhere is irrelevant to what was being discussed, because they aren't making waves in Japan.

 

While they aren't necessarily competing HEAD TO HEAD with the UFC ala WWF/WCW back in the day, the UFC is getting in more and more house holds and is taking more and more foreign fighters away. So how is that not the least bit competing or caring what they need to do again? You don't think Japaense fans would have liked to see Gomi on Dynamite? (just for a random example)

 

No, no cares about Gomi in Japan right now, at least, not to the extent that they did a few years ago and certainly not to the extent that it would be a big deal if he jumped back. One thing that Japanese MMA has always been good for is getting the money together for the fights people want to see. If people cared about Gomi, TBS or someone would be falling over themselves to stump up the cash for Gomi vs Aoki, or sticking him in with a load of foreign lightweights. They're not, which is why he ended up fighting Kenny Florian in the UFC for forty grand.

 

Same goes for Okami, Omigawa, Kid...and...erm...and I can't think of any other Japanese fighters the UFC are taking away.

 

It's not competing because Japanese promotions never tried to expand overseas to all these countries that the UFC are targeting.

 

You also say they don't care about the US, then why are they on HDNet, bringing in American fighters, then sending their fighters over there "if its all about the Japanese populace?

 

Because they're broke and HDNet pays them money to air their programming, because Mark Cuban is an MMA nut with money to burn.

 

I don't know who all these American's they are bringing in are..the last three Dream cards had 3, 1 and 3 Americans on them respectively out of a total of 50 fighters. Diaz and Miller were the only relevant ones, and they were sent over for very 'safe' fights A) Because of Strikeforce's promotional agreement with Dream and B) Because Strikeforce didn't have fights for them. As for sending their fighters to the US...well Dream sent Zaromskis, Ishida and Aoki, and none of the fights were broadcast in Japan, so I don't see how that's of any benefit to Dream. I didn't see many causal fans in the US clamouring to find Dream shows after those guys came over.

 

Great Overeem has more belts than testicles, too bad he won't be fighting there any time soon if Coker gets his way, real solid business plan there. I guess so many people cared thats why, once again, ratings continued to drop and they continue to lack sponsors. Wouldn't it be better if a regular Japanese DREAM fighter had that belt?

 

Like who? Can you name a Japanese heavyweight on a winning streak at the moment? I suppose Ishii technically fits the bill, but he's dead in the water in Japan, and they'd have the problem of finding someone for him to beat to give him the title.

 

The Dream belt is a marketing gimmick, it was created for the Overeem Duffee fight. Overeem is doing TONS of TV and media stuff in Japan at the moment. Sherdog had a great story about it a couple of weeks back. At one point he was mobbed in the street by a huge crowd. Nobody knew his name; they were all shouting "It's the guy from the K-1!! The new champion!". What Dream want is people shouting "It's that guy, the champion from Dream!" Overeem is a unique quantity in Japan at the moment. He'll do all the humiliating gameshows and photo ops with 10 Japanese girls hanging off him, like Sapp used to. He's a relative giant, like Sapp was. But he's also a champion. If I was a promoter in Japan, I'd make a belt and put it on him.

 

I am by no means a Japaense MMA expert but after making a point to go against everything I said it by no means has any evidence to support them with their latest outings. You just had to criticize it all without showing those things are helping them currently or will help them in the future.

 

Hey, don't take it personally....I'm not trying to go after everything you said, I'm just telling it like it is. I don't know if expert is the right word, but I'm halfway through writing a book on Japanese MMA, I spend a large amount of time researching it with friends and associates in many areas of the Japanese fight game; fighters, agents, trainers etc. I'd put it to you that I know what I'm talking about. There's no need to take it personally just because what I know opposed what you wrote, and I'm not saying anything you wont hear from anyone else who knows the Japanese fight game. It's not like I'm saying anything radical here.

[brashleyholland]

Really? When did you hear about this? If it is true... then, damn.

 

Josh Gross from ESPN contacted them personally. I may do it myself if I have the time over the weekend next week, but Gross did it today. He tweeted it first then expanded on it in his ESPN article later. From his twitter...

 

"Coker's position that SF couldn't make 5R fights for the tournament because it was too difficult with different regulators is ridiculous. California, N.J., Missouri, Tennessee told me 5R fights were fine by them. All said they had not been approached by Strikeforce re: it."

 

From his ESPN article...

 

Regulators in California, Missouri, New Jersey and Tennessee told ESPN.com they would have agreed to five-round, non-title tournament fights, yet Coker laid responsibility for the decision at the feet of states he declined to name.

 

"There was some confusion in the beginning but I said all along, unless we get all the commissions on the same page it would be a difficult thing to do," Coker said during a teleconference. "We didn't feel it was fair for one person to fight five rounds, another person to fight three rounds. There was debate about, well, should the final fight be a title fight? But what if Alistair wasn't there? It just became very confusing. We felt this would be a great way to launch the tournament and we're very happy about it.

 

"We would have to have all those commissions on the same page and we just couldn't do it in time."

 

Nick Lembo, counsel to the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board, said Thursday that Strikeforce never approached him or the commission about the possibility of five-round fights for the February event at the IZOD Center, which features quarterfinal matches pitting Fedor Emelianenko against Antonio Silva, and Andrei Arlovski versus Sergei Kharitonov.

 

"For the tournament fights or alternate fights, I had no problems with it going five five-minute rounds," Lembo said.

 

Oops!

[ampulator]

Damn you Coker!

[Daffanka]

Man I was just commenting today about how much these forums are much different than when I surf to news websites to read and see nothing but SF bashing.

 

Yeah.....Ok so the titles are meaningless. Nevermind the fact that this could be an athletic commission? Or the fact that if Overeem doesn't win the first fight the title could change hands a few times -anyways- before the final bout?

 

I mean I'm not thrilled about the decision but going so far as to just dump on all of the titles just because this wasn't to someone's liking is a shame.

 

I guess thats why I rarely read comment boards anymore about MMA and stick to the news. All negativity in = all negativity out and I don't have the time to blindly hate on someone or something.

 

That being said I'm still excited about Strikeforce's card and I'm really starting to get excited about the moves Bellator has made to get on TV (I need something to replace WEC with now that they are gone).

 

I like Strikeforce and I think they have an important role even though I wish they'd book smarter and wouldn't be quite to antagonistic to the UFC and vice versa. But the titles are meaningless, the only one that's ever been fought over by two top 10-ish guys is the middleweight belt which was vacated right after by the champion. Being a current or former Strikeforce champion really isn't something that spiffs up your resume.

 

I'm still really excited for this tournament, or even the first round, if it happens. No five rounders and the super wacky fourth judge scenario aren't exactly good signs but they should at least get the first batch of fights off.

 

But the title not being on the line is largely irrelevant because they need some uniformity to the tournament now that they've dedicated themselves to this format and it's a title that's been defended in two squash matches against subpar opponents.

[brashleyholland]

I like Strikeforce and I think they have an important role even though I wish they'd book smarter and wouldn't be quite to antagonistic to the UFC and vice versa.

 

I feel exactly the same way. In a perfect world, Strikeforce would say "Look, we're not the UFC and we never will be. We've got some decent guys on the books, so we can put on some fun fights. Roll up, roll up, come see the show! Come and enjoy yourselves, but don't take it too seriously!"

 

The December show was interesting to me. If you judge it against the UFC, or even if you judge it as a sporting event, it was horrible. Stupidly overmatched guys like Smith and Lindland sent to the cage to be knocked out by Daley and Lawler. A guy who just lost at 185 vs a guy who's heart isn't into causing violence anymore and who just won at 195 in a number 1 contender bout for the 205lb title. A man who should be banned from the sport against a guy who had to have a tumour removed from his head in order to compete. What a mess.

 

With that said, if you look at it as simply a fun night of fights, based purely on entertainment value - it was a great show. An MMA legend vs a guy who has fought some of the best in the main event. A couple of crazy KO's. A huge comeback win. You've got a house full of mates playing video games, drinking your place dry, some good tunes on in the background and a Strikeforce show with 4 big finishes...what more do you want?

 

If Strikeforce/Showtime could look at it as the later, rather than the former, they might actually get somewhere.

[The Shape]

As far as the title being meaningless goes, you'd think if they had it on the line in the tourney and in quick succession there were three legit title fights it'd start to mean more.