Wherein We Argue Over Numbers

[Prime Elephant]

I do sorta believe in word economy so I won't rehash things that have already been perfectly said to people who won't listen anyway.

 

But it seems like setting Cena's overness unrealisitically high (100 is a mainstream star and pop culture phenomenon and Cena is not quite that) and then nerfing his skills because you don't like the way he's booked in ring, and then giving the entire WWE midcard inflated skills to compensate won't help either.

 

Skill wise, you need Cena to be able to engage the crowd in matches with monsters of the month like Batista / Seamus / whoever (and this is what selling is, by the way, not realistically hobbling on a worked over limb for the entirety of the match) without the bottom falling out of the match rating, and you need to have him good enough to be carried in matches with better workers like Orton and Punk to realistic but not historic main events.

 

This should not hinge 100% on his push because this was roughly his level of match quality back when he was having matches with Eddie, Lesnar, and Big Show as a midcarder however many years ago.

 

If you aren't getting those results when you sim you are doing it wrong. Short of that, change WWE's product definition so that better wrestlers are main eventing or add an "A nation of merchandise buying fans become that annoying booing dude at Wrestlemania" event early in your game that bumps him down, and other workers will naturally step up and take his place.

 

Call me crazy.

[shamelessposer]

I think it's sad people are still comparing EWR to TEW, especially stats which have changed more then anything.

 

Edit - This thread proves there will and can never be a mod that everyone will be happy with... mod makers take note.

 

No, it's a road map. Eight years ago, Adam Ryland said "This is how real life dudes should stack up in comparison to one another." If I'm making a mod, it's probably useful to put at least a little consideration into stats put together by the guy who made the game, even if I would have to filter that information through the mechanics of another game.

[shamelessposer]

Both Cena and Warrior are workers who got over due to their charisma, appealing primarily to children via a cartoonish gimmick and who were never very good in the ring. Also both played an invulerable face.

 

Warrior and Orton were both charismatic wrestlers who got over through non-verbal means.

 

Cena got over with a rapper gimmick in which he once mocked a recently dead John Ritter. For a time, his catchphrase was "suck on 'deez nuts." Not only is that not child-friendly, but more than a few people would agree that rapping is a verbal thing.

 

Couldn't this be solved by having talented wrestlers for it to bleed into? If Evan Bourne, Big Show, Chavo, Rhodes, Bryan, Ziggler, Hart, Kid, Finlay, Morrison, Kingston, Porter, Primo and Regal are all set up to go in the ring, surely some of them will inherit Cena's pop and be able to do something with it? Not to mention that in my sims WWE usually hires Hero, Lesnar and Juvi.

 

Also if Punk, Rey, Undertaker, Orton, Jericho, Edge and Christian all have main event level overness shouldn't they be able to take his place if they're all equiped with the gift?

 

If you're trying to put together a real world mod, and note that the "real world" that comes after "mod" is intended to imply a certain amount of realism, why are you trying to create an environment where Cena falls to the midcard in six months?

[ampulator]

Amp: it's not even worth arguing with someone when you take the time to explain half a dozen reasons supporting your point and the best counter they can come up with is "meh I don't see it." I'm not trying to convince you to think Cena is charismatic: you can think whatever you want. But I do want to convince any mod-makers including you that there's plenty of methods and plenty of reasons to go beyond your own personal bias.

I did listen... and please take no offense at this, but I conceded some (the most important ones) points to Remianen, but, not any personal slight against you, I just don't see eye-to-eye with your points. Even if get rid of personal bias as best as I can, I just don't see it.

 

Like I said, there's wrestlers I don't care for, but which I can see why others would rank them that way. Orton and Cena are not those wrestlers.

[Rick Savant]

How long was Warrior a main eventer? And no, his blink and you miss it run in WCW, his feud with Jerry Lawler over a painting, and no-selling the Pedigree don't count. Now, how long was Cena a main eventer? Orton?

 

You forgot that Warrior was blonde and Orton has brown hair. Of course your correct in saying that there are dissimilarities between the compared people but there always will be. What I have listed is the similarities between Udub and the two and why they're comparable. Of course you could use Hogan too, if you prefered:

 

Both Cena and Hogan are workers who got over due to their charisma, appealing primarily to children via a cartoonish gimmick and who were never very good in the ring. Also both played an invulnerable face and had lengthy runs and main eventers.

 

Hogan and Orton were both charismatic wrestlers who were main eventers for long periods of time. However it must be said that Hogan is way blonder.

 

Now, how many times did the opening of a WWF TV show depend on Ultimate Warrior going out and cutting a six minute or more promo in front of a live audience?

 

How many times did anyone during that time period do that? In the WWE? Never? Huh. I guess that it's impossible to compare any modern main eventers to past performers.

 

Cena and Orton both do this on a regular basis, and setting their skills low enough that they drop popularity or drop show ratings if left to their own devices doesn't reflect reality.

 

I am not arguing that Cena's popularity should drop when he cuts a promo at the beginning of the show. I'm saying that that's where his overness stems from.

 

Both Cena and Warrior are workers who got over due to their charisma

 

See? What I'm saying is that he is bad at wrestling and if he gains popularity by wrestling good matches then that doesn't really reflect reality.

 

John Cena's wrestling skills look more like Buff Bagwell when he was in the American Males.

 

An astute comparison but don't you think Buff's hair is much darker?

 

I do want to convince any mod-makers including you that there's plenty of methods and plenty of reasons to go beyond your own personal bias.

 

We need to address the use of the word bias here because it makes no sense. The most relevant dic.com definition I found was this:

 

a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.

 

Ok. Well in this instance I don't even have the option of being biased. I can't prejudge John Cena. I've watched him for years. I wish I hadn't, but I have. I'd love to be prejudiced against Cena's wrestling, having never had seen it. But, again, I have so I can't make a prejudgment. I'm making a judgment. A judgment based on experience. An experience that continues up until this day: I was at Wrestlemania. I saw his ****ty match with Batista. It was dull. And it was completely consistent with every other match I've ever seen from the guy. Sure, going into the match I was biased that this particular match would be dull. It hadn't happened yet, but I was confident. The match happened and I was proven correct. However the same cannot be said for John Cena's wrestling. The ongoing state of his talent. That has been proven again and again and continues to be proven.

 

But I realize that's not what you meant to say. What you mean to say is my opinion.

 

But I do want to convince any mod-makers including you that there's plenty of methods and plenty of reasons to go beyond your own personal opinion.

 

You just want to put a negative slant on it because you don't agree with my opinion. You can tell this easily because you never refer to your own bias. You have judgments on how good wrestlers are in the ring and so do I. But mine are biases. I'm curious what the methods to go beyond your own opinion is? So far it seems like to adopt yours. Which although a generous offer, I'll pass on. And as far as reasons to go beyond my own opinion: I assume you mean to have a functioning game world. So far I'm unconvinced that the two are incompatible.

 

I do sorta believe in word economy so I won't rehash things that have already been perfectly said to people who won't listen anyway.

 

But it seems like setting Cena's overness unrealisitically high (100 is a mainstream star and pop culture phenomenon and Cena is not quite that) and then nerfing his skills because you don't like the way he's booked in ring, and then giving the entire WWE midcard inflated skills to compensate won't help either.

 

If only there was someone here to respond to that perfectly.

 

Yep. Problem is, some mods don't give the workers below main event level the skills necessary to step in, should the need arise.

 

Oh. I guess someone wasn't listening. Anyway...

 

Skill wise, you need Cena to be able to engage the crowd in matches with monsters of the month like Batista / Seamus / whoever (and this is what selling is, by the way, not realistically hobbling on a worked over limb for the entirety of the match) without the bottom falling out of the match rating, and you need to have him good enough to be carried in matches with better workers like Orton and Punk to realistic but not historic main events.

 

I see no reason why I need this. What I need is for WWE to not fall to National. John Cena is a key component in that, but not the whole company.

 

If you aren't getting those results when you sim you are doing it wrong. Short of that, change WWE's product definition so that better wrestlers are main eventing or add an "A nation of merchandise buying fans become that annoying booing dude at Wrestlemania" event early in your game that bumps him down, and other workers will naturally step up and take his place.

 

Why would I need to do this when his poor wrestling will drop him naturally and the charismatic and talented undercard can step in fine with the current product?

 

Call me crazy.

 

Crazy.

 

Cena got over with a rapper gimmick in which he once mocked a recently dead John Ritter. For a time, his catchphrase was "suck on 'deez nuts." Not only is that not child-friendly, but more than a few people would agree that rapping is a verbal thing.

 

If you think that John Cena doesn't appeal to children then our understanding of reality is so far apart it cannot be reconciled. Randy Orton never had a rapper gimmick. That, however, would have been pretty damn funny.

 

If you're trying to put together a real world mod, and note that the "real world" that comes after "mod" is intended to imply a certain amount of realism, why are you trying to create an environment where Cena falls to the midcard in six months?

 

Because I'm not trying to make a mod that mimics reality. If I wanted that I'd watch WWE. I'm trying to make a mod that reflects the wrestling world as I see it. And mark my words, if everyone saw John Cena the way I see him he would fall to midcard in 3.

[SGRaaize]

This discussion is very very stupid

The game is not 100% realistic, it is working on that aspect, but it will be almost impossible to arrive to that realism sometime in the next 20 years.

It is true John Cena and Randy Orton have skills that are below what the game considers a true main eventer (this is undebatable, so please don't argue with me on the above statement), but if you want WWE to flow well and like it flows in real life, you have to make them have all the important skills

 

Is it annoying to pretend John Cena is a wrestling god? Play Cornellverse

Is it annoying to pretend Randy Orton has anything besides sex appeal (?) and some natural charisma? Play Cornellverse

 

Either that, or you can play it with WWE being destroyed on the first months or getting his main event scene a extreme make over

[Harmor]

The only thing is - WWE IS entertainment based first and foremost, so unless a worker really sucks so bad it's obvious to 10 year old kids (not applicable to Cena), the fans will rally behind said worker if he/she is pushed a certain way. Cena IS pushed as a superhero-like babyface (much like Warrior and Hogan were), and as such, a good portion of WWE fans get behind him. Period.

 

It doesn't matter a whole lot in modern day WWE if you can wrestle one hour matches with an A* rating, it simply doesn't, so the argument if a wrestler is great or not quite so great is kind of ... nonsensical, at least as far as WWE is concerned. It's mainstream and it appeals to a ... hmmm ... 70% (??) casual audience (not that WWE doesn't have good wrestlers, infact they have quite a few of them). So what matters most is entertainment skills, and no matter if anyone likes it or not, Cena manages to make the crowd care for him, if they cheer for the guy or make signs saying "If Cena wins we riot" not even being the main importance. People DO care for him either way, and that's what WWE is milking. So at least parts of his stats should, in any mod that I care for at least, reflect that.

 

Just my 2 cents about this discussion which I didn't fully read really (skipped a few parts that for me went a little bit too much into the flamefest direction, which we don't exactly need on these boards). One last thing I'd like to add is that no one should be acting as if he or she knows better than people who have been working with WWE for years and years ... odds are, even if we do not agree with what they do at times (and I sure don't), at the end of the day they ARE successful with what they're doing. And to finish with a quote from Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation fame: "Fans are clinging, complaining dip*beep*s who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The sooner you shut out their shrill, tremolous voices the happier you'll be for it." ... Didn't mean to offend anyone with that quote btw.

[Irish Wolf]

Because I'm not trying to make a mod that mimics reality. If I wanted that I'd watch WWE. I'm trying to make a mod that reflects the wrestling world as I see it. And mark my words, if everyone saw John Cena the way I see him he would fall to midcard in 3.

 

This is fine, perfect, great even. If you're making a mod just for you that you don't intend anyone else to use and you want it to be how you see the wrestling world or what you want to see from the wrestling world more power to you. I don't play real world mods so it doesn't matter to me but with this statement alone I would say don't call your mod a real world mod because its reflecting how you see things not the way things are.

 

I'm not a big fan of WWEs product, I don't like a lot of the workers on their shows. Hell Orton annoys the hell out of me and if I happen to be watching WWE I change the channel anytime they give him a mic or put him in the ring. But that's just me, the guy is obvious loved or hate in the right way but enough people to warrant a main event push from WWE. He sells merchandise, he headlines shows and he gets over. You don't like him and I don't like him but any mod that doesn't represents what is obviously happening in the real world is not a real world mod.

 

But again by all means if making with Cena or Orton being as sucky as other posters seem to infer you are makes for a fun mod for you to play go for it. The game is meant to be fun for the individual player and if that's fun for you then the game is doing it's job.

[The Masked Orange]

Cena and Orton are talented, just not A's. People always look at people like Jericho, Michaels and even Trips when they wrestle (not yet in this thread admittedly), and then compare them to Orton and Cena, and say Orton and Cena can't wrestle. Guess what? Neither Orton or Cena is even 35 yet, and you are comparing them to the guys who gave us PPV quality matches weekly on Television during the hottest period in wrestling history. Cena and Orton are solid and entertaining. That is the very definition of someone who gets over in the WWE. When you compare an A in TEW terms for performance (roughly what the three people I said above are) and then see a B- (3 grades lower) of course people will complain. That is why people boo Cena and say Orton and Cena aren't good wrestlers. They are solid and not outstanding anywhere but on the mic and in how they look on camera.

 

This next bit is Psychology 101 (not wrestling psychology however, might be sociology actually, I'm not entirely sure). When you see Cena and dislike his wrestling, you begin to dislike him. So when you see him on the mic you are bias towards his mic skills sheerly because you don't like him as a wrestler. That is why some extremely talented people (Jericho, Michaels) are also seen as A in entertainment. People like them in-ring and therefore prefer them on-mic. Because you like Jericho, you think he is more entertaining. But if you don't mind Cena in-ring, you can see he is actually very entertaining. He is at least a B and needed to be at least a C+ when he started out just to get any overness. In TEW terms, John Cena was around Robbie Retro stats when he started. Solid, but definetely not bad. Bad is when somebody has something like incredible size, charisma or a great look, and still was unpushable. See Giant Gonzales off the top of my head.

[Rick Savant]

I actually really like Orton and gave him a 90 for psychology*. How's that for flame bate?

 

One last thing I'd like to add is that no one should be acting as if he or she knows better than people who have been working with WWE for years and years ... odds are, even if we do not agree with what they do at times (and I sure don't), at the end of the day they ARE successful with what they're doing.

 

Yes, but what they're doing is trying to make money. Not make good wrestling. I don't know if the two are mutually exclusive, they probably are, but any way you cut it WWE's goal is not to make good wrestling. This is not a controversial statement they don't even say they make wrestling anymore. It's a dirty word to them. And, predictably, that's frustrating to people who like wrestling. So, yeah, I probably would make a better wrestling event than the WWE. But I'd fail terribly at running a multi-billion dollar business. I'm sure they're fine with that trade off.

 

*True story.

[shamelessposer]

This discussion is very very stupid

The game is not 100% realistic, it is working on that aspect, but it will be almost impossible to arrive to that realism sometime in the next 20 years.

It is true John Cena and Randy Orton have skills that are below what the game considers a true main eventer (this is undebatable, so please don't argue with me on the above statement), but if you want WWE to flow well and like it flows in real life, you have to make them have all the important skills

 

The game considers Steve Frehley to be a "true main eventer." General consensus is that John Cena is Frehley with better Performance skills. Ergo, John Cena is considered by the game to be a "true main eventer."

[SGRaaize]

Except for... you know...

The whole Physical Skills and half of the Performance Skills and 2 of the other skills...

 

Just saying..

[Harmor]

Yes, but what they're doing is trying to make money. Not make good wrestling. I don't know if the two are mutually exclusive, they probably are, but any way you cut it WWE's goal is not to make good wrestling. This is not a controversial statement they don't even say they make wrestling anymore. It's a dirty word to them. And, predictably, that's frustrating to people who like wrestling. So, yeah, I probably would make a better wrestling event than the WWE. But I'd fail terribly at running a multi-billion dollar business. I'm sure they're fine with that trade off.

 

That is correct, at least sort of. See, it goes without saying that any promotion in the world is trying to make money. WWE do it via means of sports entertainment, ROH have their way which appeals much more to the (small) hardcore-fan audience ... etc. However, WWE's in-ring product still IS wrestling, so at least their PPV matches are (at times) quite good, as in, entertaining (which is essentially what wrestling comes down to, as it's not a competitive sport). No, they no longer have the PPV caliber matches on TV they used to have, but obviously they don't need to and still make money. They ultimately just follow their fanbase, as you can't book shows against what the fans want (not for long at least). If the common, run-of-the-mill WWE fan is less intelligent or interested in the actual product of wrestling these days is a whole different debate though.

[1PWfan]

Except for... you know...

The whole Physical Skills and half of the Performance Skills and 2 of the other skills...

 

Just saying..

 

I'd say Cena had good fundamentals (C+ to B on everything except selling and maybe C selling)- I care about his matches and their story a lot more than, say, The Motor City Machineguns or Kofi Kingston, who seem really spotty to me.

 

As for physical skills, what's the problem? I'd say C's to C+'s across the board.

[shamelessposer]

As for physical skills, what's the problem? I'd say C's to C+'s across the board.

 

Higher than that. The guy's a gym freak. Power should be at least a B, and Stamina would be in the B- to B+ range.

[The Masked Orange]

Higher than that. The guy's a gym freak. Power should be at least a B, and Stamina would be in the B- to B+ range.

 

Excellent point. No guy who's just around a C+ in physical will be on the cover of fitness magazines.

[1PWfan]

Higher than that. The guy's a gym freak. Power should be at least a B, and Stamina would be in the B- to B+ range.

 

That seems fair, though I'm not sure about stamina- how many long matches has he done? (genuine question- I don't watch a whole lote of WWE)

[lazorbeak]

I'm just going to ignore the stuff that misses the point completely. Someone else made a bad comparison: I'm not sure why you're bound and determined to prove that bad comparison's merit?

 

 

But I realize that's not what you meant to say. What you mean to say is my opinion.

 

 

WRONG-o! What I mean to say is you have an opinion that is not a fair evaluation of a person or their work but a BIAS against what they've done because you personally don't enjoy it, to the exclusion of the mountains of evidence to the contrary. Here's a better definition of bias:

 

"Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology, or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective."

 

Basically I'm saying you're letting your own dislike of a person's work prevent you from being objective. AKA bias. "I don't like John Cena, therefore he's bad" may be an opinion, but it's an opinion that doesn't hold any water because the conclusion makes no sense and flat out ignores all evidence to the contrary. Hence, bias.

 

You just want to put a negative slant on it because you don't agree with my opinion. You can tell this easily because you never refer to your own bias. You have judgments on how good wrestlers are in the ring and so do I. But mine are biases. I'm curious what the methods to go beyond your own opinion is? So far it seems like to adopt yours. Which although a generous offer, I'll pass on. And as far as reasons to go beyond my own opinion: I assume you mean to have a functioning game world. So far I'm unconvinced that the two are incompatible.

 

I don't refer to my own "bias" because my "opinion" isn't formed solely through my own emotional reactions but through a logical process that incorporates opinions that aren't mine as well as extrinsic evidence. What are the methods? I freaking listed my reasoning earlier in this very thread! Again, since I am looking at extrinsic evidence, comparing against the C-Verse, looking at Adam Ryland's own interpretation of the data, and looking to things determined by the wrestling media that I have nothing to do with, I am pretty much the definition of objectivity on this one.

 

What I absolutely do not get is how people on the internet, when presented with evidence, can respond with NO EVIDENCE and then act shocked and appalled that their opinion isn't treated with equal weight. Seriously this is how you build an argument. I'm not telling you how to think but I am telling you based on numerous facts listed previously as well as some insightful posts made by others that I believe you are unequivocally wrong in your evaluation of Cena. And deep down, if you didn't think something was wrong, you probably wouldn't have posted on the thread that the AI was unable to accurately sim the world because of the data you gave it. So I don't think you being wrong about this is that extreme a conclusion.

 

Because I'm not trying to make a mod that mimics reality. If I wanted that I'd watch WWE. I'm trying to make a mod that reflects the wrestling world as I see it. And mark my words, if everyone saw John Cena the way I see him he would fall to midcard in 3.

 

Now we're getting into insane delusion territory.

[The Masked Orange]

That seems fair, though I'm not sure about stamina- how many long matches has he done? (genuine question- I don't watch a whole lote of WWE)

 

That would be just a rough guide though, was Shawn Michaels a B- in stamina the day before his 60-min iron man match than blossomed into an A? Cena could go for fourty minutes depending on how the match was built. That's around a B if memory serves. But in the WWE don't expect more than twenty minutes out of him.

 

EDIT: Damn lazorbeak, proving me wrong. He's gone an hour? Damn man, musta missed that PPV. Nice catch.

[lazorbeak]

Higher than that. The guy's a gym freak. Power should be at least a B, and Stamina would be in the B- to B+ range.

 

I'd say power should probably be an A. The guy is able to lift up Big Show and Viscera for the "Attitude Adjustment"/FU.

 

That seems fair, though I'm not sure about stamina- how many long matches has he done? (genuine question- I don't watch a whole lote of WWE)

 

Well he went an hour with Orton a few months back, and had that match with HBK that won match of the year in 2007 or so. I'd say B/B+ is probably about right. I'm sure I'm forgetting some others that went close to an hour.

 

His athleticism is probably in the B- range as he's reasonably athletic, but it's not hard to come up with guys on the WWE roster with more athleticism.

[shamelessposer]

And deep down, if you didn't think something was wrong, you probably wouldn't have posted on the thread that the AI was unable to accurately sim the world because of the data you gave it. So I don't think you being wrong about this is that extreme a conclusion.

 

"On two occasions I have been asked, – 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' In one case a member of the Upper, and in the other a member of the Lower House put this question. I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage

[ampulator]

Actually going an hour with Orton doesn't prove anything about this stamina. For one thing, Orton and Cena have to SLOW down (AND THIS IS ENTIRELY REASONABLE) to do an one hour match. They certainly aren't going ALL-OUT. Hell, an all-out match between those two will probably will around 20 at best. (And would have been cluster****. I'm so glad those two don't pull an all-outer).

 

However, the match intensity and danger changes how long a person can go. I can easily get someone with a C- stamina to around 30 if they aren't going on all-out, and if the match isn't intense.

 

Up the intensity and danger, and going all out though, are factors. Cena being around B- AND being able to do a one-hour isn't a really a far-fetched idea. It's entirely possible, considering how low the danger and intensity of Cena's matches generally are.

 

And lazorbeak, "making a bad comparison"? That's your opinion. I thought I made a good one. If you want to ignore, no one is stopping you. But don't state that as fact when it's an opinion. Obviously I'm not only one think that's a good comparison.

 

Besides, I think Remianen already pretty much settled it. The gist of is "Sure, you can book Orton and Cena correctly if they have lower entertaiment skills, and whether that's correct or not, can the AI do it?" The answer is... well, no. They AI can't do it. That belies the point whether the entertainment skills are accurate or not, because the AI, unlike the real life WWE, won't book them accurately as main eventers, and they might fall from the main eventer stats in six months, which is even more innaccurate. So, even if I believed the entertainment stats are accurate for Cena and Orton... it won't produce accurate results in terms of where their card placement would be. That's good enough answer to me.

[Comradebot]

Higher than that. The guy's a gym freak. Power should be at least a B, and Stamina would be in the B- to B+ range.

 

After he lifted The Big Show AND Edge onto his shoulders at the same time?

 

No, the guy has atleast an A, possibly A* strength. He is FREAKISHLY strong, to be honest. Mark Henry might be the only other guy in the company capable of pulling off what he did there.

[SGRaaize]

I'd say Cena had good fundamentals (C+ to B on everything except selling and maybe C selling)- I care about his matches and their story a lot more than, say, The Motor City Machineguns or Kofi Kingston, who seem really spotty to me.

 

As for physical skills, what's the problem? I'd say C's to C+'s across the board.

 

Hum, looking again in the stats, you're actually right, in fact, John Cena is better than Steve Frehley at both Selling and Mat Skills

 

However, there's no way you'l convince me that Randy Orton is on any Upper Midcarder on SWF, let alone Main Eventer (aside from Marat Khozlov)

[ampulator]

After he lifted The Big Show AND Edge onto his shoulders at the same time?

 

No, the guy has atleast an A, possibly A* strength. He is FREAKISHLY strong, to be honest. Mark Henry might be the only other guy in the company capable of pulling off what he did there.

I would agree. The only physical skill John Cena should lower is athleticism. Power is probably A to A*. Lifting Big Show himself is impressive enough.

 

And on Toughness, how the heck can we tell on-screen on who's tough and who's not?

 

I remember Chris Jericho putting Goldberg in front facelock during their WCW days and Booker T getting the upper hand in a fight, and Paul Orndorff kicking Vader's ass.