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How Do You Burn Out A Crowd? (Perfect Show Theory Discussion)


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PST tends to be one of the major things that confuses newcomers to TEW. I always thought I knew roughly what I was doing with it, but I've just been testing something for another post I'm writing and was actually TRYING to get the burnt out crowd note - I found it surprisingly hard. I always thought that having a bunch of segments in a row which increased in popularity would lead to that note, but this testing seems to suggest I'm missing something - can anyone out there shed some light on why I DIDN'T get it for attempts 2 and 4 shown below?

 

Note: To test, I booked a CGC card several times, making minor adjustments each time. All matches are between 8 and 12 minutes long (in-ring time) except for the main event, which is 17 minutes long.

 

Card I started with was:

Pre-show

Sports Entertainment match: Adrian Garcia vs Jenny Playmate

Sports Entertainment match: Whippy The Clown vs Trent Shaffer

 

Main show

Brett Fraser vs Stevie Grayson

Davis Wayne Newton vs Skip Beau

Fate vs Zeus Maxmillion

Shane Nelson vs Destiny

Nate Johnson vs Christian Price

Ryan Powell vs Thrill Seeker

Jack DeColt vs Dan DaLay

 

I then messed around a bit, dropping pre-show matches and adding in 8 minute hype videos here and there for a couple of attempts.

 

Attempt 1:

AG vs JP 26 this match brought the crowd's mood down

WTC vs TS 43 segment rating penalised for being down to a 'cold' crowd

BF vs SG 53 segment rating penalised for being down to a 'cold' crowd

DWN vs SB 40 segment rating penalised for lowering crowd's mood

WTC vs OG 58 segment rating penalised for being down to a 'cold' crowd

F vs ZM 58

SN vs D 59

NJ vs CP 67

RP vs TS 68

JDC vs DDL 76 burnt out crowd

 

 

Attempt 2:

DDL/AG vid 67

BF vs SG 51 segment rating penalised for lowering crowd's mood

DWN vs SB 40 segment rating penalised for lowering crowd's mood

F vs ZM 59

SN vs D 60

NJ vs CP 66

RP vs TS 67

JDC vs DDL 78

 

 

Attempt 3:

DDL/AG vid 67

DWN vs SB 40 segment got a bonus for being done to a 'hot' crowd

BF vs SG 55

F vs ZM 58

SN vs D 60

NJ vs CP 67

RP vs TS 69

JDC vs DDL 76 - burnt out crowd

 

 

Attempt 4:

DWN vs SB 46

BF vs SG 57

F vs ZM 59

SN vs D 61

NJ vs CP 65

RP vs TS 67

JDC vs DDL 78

 

Note: There were other attempts; these seem to be the ones that stand out most though. Particularly confused as attempt 4 has 7 segments in a row increasing without getting the 'burnt out crowd' note, while attempt 3 also has 7 segments in a row increasing but it does get the note.

 

Any help/thoughts/suggestions would be gratefully received!

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Interesting little experiment, can't help you out but I hope you find an answer. Only thing I can see which might be relevant is that in both 2 + 4 the second to last match gets a 67 but in the others it gets higher (just), so maybe it's something to do with your main event having to be a certain amount of points better than the previous match. That said it's still your second best match everytime so I would've thought that would burn it out :confused:

 

I've always understood the perfect show 'theory' but never fully got how the game actually applies it. I'm sure it won't be, but the burnt out crowd note has always seemed a bit random to me.

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I havent had too much experience with 2013 yet since I just bought it after being away on holidays, but:

 

It seems this year "work the crowd" in road agent notes is an extremely strong way to warm up a crowd if the match is passable, but it's very easy to overuse. I used to use work the crowd in nearly every non-main in 2010, but if you do that this year the crowd gets burnt out easily.

 

How I'm thinking of booking now is, say I have six matches, ordered by quality from A-F (let's pretend it's their grade, if that helps):

 

C(working the crowd, a solid match to get the crowd pumped)

F(all out if the guys can handle it to bring the grade up, otherwise protect etc.)

D(work the crowd to warm them back up)

E(same as the F)

B(all out, get the crowd pumped for the main)

A(slow build between 2 workers with good psych)

 

I think I'm doing the right thing as I'm not getting any agent notes about a poor crowd anymore (unless my angles bomb) and it seems to follow PST and real life reasonably well.

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Interesting little experiment, can't help you out but I hope you find an answer. Only thing I can see which might be relevant is that in both 2 + 4 the second to last match gets a 67 but in the others it gets higher (just), so maybe it's something to do with your main event having to be a certain amount of points better than the previous match.

 

 

Hmmm... wonder if you're on to something there! (Protecting Grayson here to try and make sure the matches score increasing scores each time. Have shortened the main event, and reduced expected lengths in product, to avoid stamina 'dings'.

 

Attempt 5:

DDL/AG video 65

DWN vs SB 44

BF vs SG 50

F vs ZM 58

SN vs D 60

NJ vs CP 64

RP vs TS 66

JDC vs DDL 78

 

No note that time. So nearly identical to attempt 3, with the major differences being that the crowd weren't 'hot' after the opening video this time, and that there was a 12-point gap between the last two matches rather than just a 7-point one. You may be on to something here!

 

 

Attempt 6:

Alex DeColt hypes a match against Dan DaLay 73

DWN vs SB 40 - bonus for being down to a 'hot' crowd AND 'penalised for lowering the crowd's mood'

BF vs SG 49

F vs ZM 59

SN vs D 61

NJ vs CP 65

RP vs TS 69

JDC vs DDL 75 - burnt out crowd

 

Hmmm... more testing and we may nail this. (Or Remi or someone could probably pop in with the definitive answer...)

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Generally, having a bunch of matches that go up DO burn out the crowd, but the effect only seems to happen when you hit a certain level of ratings. I rarely see the note in the beginning of a game when my workers are less popular, I'm still getting a feel for who works well with who and my segments generally are lower rated. I tend to get the note more when i start getting ratings in the 60s-70s and your data supports that. I noticed in every attempt that got the burn out note the last three segments came in above 67, and had built prior. Then attempt 6 threw me off because it had a 65. However that attempt also had a hot segment to start which may have had the crowd up already. I don't want to say there is a magic number where it kicks in, but experience definitely tells me that I almost never see it until the ratings start getting higher. EDIT- As I was typing this I looked at your cards again. I noticed that your attempts that had burnout ended in 76 matches, the ones that didn't-78. This goes back to the idea that the matches have to reach a certain level (The 76 matches were actually better than the 78, but got knocked back because of the note)

 

That said I am a big believer in using Perfect Show Theory in the game, when done correctly my match ratings always seem better than when I have it turned off. I have a system that works for me and it's simply the rule of 3. using a rating system of 5 for best match 1 for worst I would book my cards back from the main event like this.

 

5

4

1

3

2

1

3

2

1

 

Now anywhere there is a 3 it could be a 4 and the 1 could be a 2 (especially right before the final 2 matches) but you get the general idea. It's always that 4th increase in a row that gets that note. As for how I know how the matches will turn out, it's just knowing your roster. I also use specific workers as cool down workers. Say a guy like Steve Flash working with some scrubs to train them up. Things like that.

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i just stopped the numbers there, rarely do I have have exactly 6, 9 or 12 matches. I've actually been opening my shows lately with a hot interview.

 

That's what I typically do as well. Then again, I'm no expert because I can only garner a "B" in most SWF shows.

 

Typically I've found that show ratings end up better when I open the show with something rather big between my most over workers. In the SWF, you'll normally see Faith/Vengeance/Money/Bruce/Remo/Frehley in this place. More or less, I want to 'punch' the fans in the mouth right away with what they're looking for; the over workers. I think this helps my overall show rating in the end but, as I said, I tend to book "B" level shows.

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This is one area where, while I never disable it, I've never really understood it and just kinda went with it. :p

 

Something I do know which may or may not be relevant:

 

- The crowd has a 'starting mood' (which varies, because some crowds are better than others). Segments that are better than the current level raise the mood, segments that are worse lower it. That's why it's now possible to get a string of 'raised the crowd' segments on a show, or even to get an entire show where every segment raises the crowd (in that case it just means the crowd started really dead). This is different from before, where a segment just needed to be X amount better than the one before it to raise the crowd.

 

Now, you could be onto something with your "number of points better than the last match = avoid burnout" theory.

 

I'd always imagined crowd 'burnout' as being kind of like a race horse (I believe I used this analogy before with a car, but I've refined it now :p).

 

If the horse goes too slowly, it'll lose the race. If it goes too fast, it'll be in the lead for a while but then get knackered by the end and probably lose anyway. The only way to win a race is for the horse to pace itself so it can still sprint to the finish at the end.

 

I think the secret is to keep the crowd's "mood" steadily increasing, and not staying too flat or hot for too long. If it does get too 'hot' you want to cool it down without killing it (you want to slow your horse down a bit without him coming to an abrupt halt and breaking his leg :p).

 

So I think if you've had a match that you think will score quite highly, but isn't the main event, you want to put a match after it that will be slightly worse but not a disaster. You want to go from Wolf vs. Vessey into RDJ vs. Tornado before Cornell/McFly, you don't want to go from Wolf/Vessey straight into Cornell/McFly because two excellent matches one after the other might be overkill (especially as they're going to go 30 minutes each with the default product), nor do you want to go from Wolf/Vessey to Shark/Courtenay. :p

 

If you look at your results, it seems you're NOT getting burnout when the jump from semi main to main is large. But you ARE when it's small. In theory because the main event isn't all that special compared to the match before it so the fans are kept on the same 'level'. In your examples, most of the card is around the 60s. Burnout is avoided when the main event is much better and kicks the fans up another gear.

 

So to return to the race horse theory, in Attempt 1 he stumbled out the gates like a drunken hobo and in both 1 and 3 he then started sprinting way too early with Johnson and Price. In attempts 2 and 4 he nailed it and won.

 

I don't THINK that angles affect a crowd's mood, they just get bonuses or penalties for whatever the mood was at the time.

 

I'm not totally sure how All Out/Work The Crowd/Slow Build works in practice. I'd assume that a Slow Build match would reduce the risk of burnout, since it makes sense that a match that is built up slowly would be less hard on the crowd, while a short All Out Match would wear them out quicker. Work the Crowd possibly helps them recover from a 'killed the crowd' or 'done to a cold crowd' note.

 

I usually go with:

Work the Crowd in the pre-show.

Hot angle to start, for dem ratings.

Regular matches and angles in the undercard.

All Out semi main event (where that note is appropriate for the workers who happen to be in it).

Slow Build main event. In theory the 'slow' part of the match gives the fans chance to get their breath back as the workers build to the epic finale, where they can give their last bit of interaction before the show ends.

 

Another theory is the 'rock concert' build, where all the Work the Crowd match (fan-interaction songs, the "repeat after me!" sections) are in the middle, because that's where fans typically start to get tired/disinterested/distracted, then finish with their big hits.

 

If rockstars were in TEW, incidentally, Tobias Sammet would have an A* for Psychology. Just sayin'. :p

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Some more testing here - I THOUGHT that I'd got somewhere with the idea that burnout was caused by 3 matches in a row improving AND being over a certain level (I think scorpion had a great point there!)

 

However, attempt 1 is confusing me - any theories?

 

Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far, btw - really interesting discussion!

 

Card 2, attempt 1:

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 84

Ricky vs SSD 66 - lowered crowd's mood

DaLay vs Jack 77

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 74

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 80 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

 

Card 2, attempt 2:

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 77

Ricky vs SSD 64 - lowered crowd's mood

DaLay vs Jack 74

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 81

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

 

Card 2, attempt 3:

Ricky vs SSD 73

DaLay vs Jack 75

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 80 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 75 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

 

Edit: Attempt 3b, after reading D-Lyrium's slow build suggestion.

Ricky vs SSD 75

DaLay vs Jack 76

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan (SLOW BUILD) 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 80 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 75 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

Card 2, attempt 4:

Ricky vs SSD 75

DaLay vs Jack 78

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 68 - 'penalised for falling slightly flat after the previous segment'

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 83

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

 

Card 2, attempt 5:

Ricky vs SSD 75

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 81

DaLay vs Jack 70 - 'penalised for lowering the crowd's mood'

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 76

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 77

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

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Oh, was it? It's been so long since I played 2010 that I forgot. :p Well it's changed now anyway. :)

 

Some more testing here - I THOUGHT that I'd got somewhere with the idea that burnout was caused by 3 matches in a row improving AND being over a certain level (I think scorpion had a great point there!)

 

However, attempt 1 is confusing me - any theories?

 

Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far, btw - really interesting discussion!

 

Card 2, attempt 1:

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 84

Ricky vs SSD 66 - lowered crowd's mood

DaLay vs Jack 77

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 74

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 80 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

Race Horse Theory says he came out of the gates like a bat out of hell and was gassing harder than Ultimate Warrior by the time he reached the final furlong. ;) I guess the quarter-main (is that even a thing?) wasn't lower ENOUGH to have much of an effect? Like saying "you can catch your breath for a while by merely sprinting instead of attempting to reach terminal velocity". Did you even use a non-upper carder on the entire show?

 

Card 2, attempt 2:

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 77

Ricky vs SSD 64 - lowered crowd's mood

DaLay vs Jack 74

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 81

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

The quarter-main here was better than the main. ¬_¬ There was no slow-down at all. Poor horsey probably died.

 

Edit: Attempt 3b, after reading D-Lyrium's slow build suggestion.

Ricky vs SSD 75

DaLay vs Jack 76

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan (SLOW BUILD) 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 80 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 75 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

Never thought of having a slow build in the middle of the card. I've only ever used it in the main event. I didn't really make that clear in my post. I imagine Slow Build's ending to be even more epic and burneyoutey than an All Out Match, it just happens for a shorter portion of the match. I guess kinda like an explosion vs. asphyxiation. Both are kinda dangerous, but at least the explosion is quick. ¬_¬

 

These attempts succeed in burning out the fans because there are absolutely no 'toilet breaks' or lower card stuff at all. It's like going to an Iron Maiden show and them playing all their sing-a-long hit songs back to back. Judas Be My Guide is important, because nobody knows it so nobody can sing it, therefore they get a rest. ;)

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It seems this year "work the crowd" in road agent notes is an extremely strong way to warm up a crowd if the match is passable, but it's very easy to overuse.

 

Kinda off topic, but what skill is 'work the crowd' actually based off? I originally thought it was charisma but I think I remember reading recently that it's psychology.

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I guess the quarter-main (is that even a thing?) wasn't lower ENOUGH to have much of an effect? Like saying "you can catch your breath for a while by merely sprinting instead of attempting to reach terminal velocity". Did you even use a non-upper carder on the entire show?

 

Ha - nope, I wanted to make sure I was getting good scores this time around for the purposes of the experiment so loaded it with Main Eventers. Bold bit is an interesting point... you may well have something there.

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I use PST (when I use it, if I'm playing a historical mod, I use the old fashioned prelims, semi-main, main formula) kind of like how I would structure my stand up comedy sets when starting out. Second best joke opens, third best in the middle and your strongest for closing. Similar to D-Lyrium's rock show analogy. I never really use Work the Crowd unless I have a weak opening match (as in the aforementioned historical mods).
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However, attempt 1 is confusing me - any theories?

 

Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far, btw - really interesting discussion!

 

Card 2, attempt 1:

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 84

Ricky vs SSD 66 - lowered crowd's mood

DaLay vs Jack 77

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 74

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 80 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

Here I definitely think the 74 match wasn't low enough to give the crowd a break. Also just for reference on this card and others, your main event was likely equal to or higher than the semi before the burntout penalty.

 

 

Card 2, attempt 2:

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 77

Ricky vs SSD 64 - lowered crowd's mood

DaLay vs Jack 74

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 81

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

This one is about what I would expect. needed a breather between Jack/Rick match and Alex/Whippy match

 

 

Card 2, attempt 3:

Ricky vs SSD 73

DaLay vs Jack 75

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 80 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 75 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

 

Edit: Attempt 3b, after reading D-Lyrium's slow build suggestion.

Ricky vs SSD 75

DaLay vs Jack 76

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan (SLOW BUILD) 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 80 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 75 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

I have no clue on these. Though I've never run 5 segment cards on perfect show theory. (typically i only run 5 segment cards early on when my promotion is small and i'm still learning the workers) If i did I would run them 2-3-1-3-4.

 

Card 2, attempt 4:

Ricky vs SSD 75

DaLay vs Jack 78

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 68 - 'penalised for falling slightly flat after the previous segment'

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 83

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 81 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

This is interesting with the falling flat note. I would have thought that would work as a cool down but it doesn't appear that way.

 

Card 2, attempt 5:

Ricky vs SSD 75

Alex hypes up match against Eddie 81

DaLay vs Jack 70 - 'penalised for lowering the crowd's mood'

Jack/Ricky vs Trent/Dan 76

Alex/Whippy vs Eddie/SSD 77

Alex vs Trent 79 - 'penalised for having a burnt out crowd'

 

This one again looks like I would have expected. need a break after jack/ricky match

 

I should also say that I am by no means an expert, I only know what I've learned through a lot of trial and error. And, i certainly may be wrong on any of my theories.

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I think the secret is to keep the crowd's "mood" steadily increasing, and not staying too flat or hot for too long. If it does get too 'hot' you want to cool it down without killing it (you want to slow your horse down a bit without him coming to an abrupt halt and breaking his leg :p).

 

Pretty much this. You build to a peak, bring them down, build to a higher peak, bring them down, but not as far, then hopefully hit the pinnacle at your main event.

 

So I think if you've had a match that you think will score quite highly, but isn't the main event, you want to put a match after it that will be slightly worse but not a disaster. You want to go from Wolf vs. Vessey into RDJ vs. Tornado before Cornell/McFly, you don't want to go from Wolf/Vessey straight into Cornell/McFly because two excellent matches one after the other might be overkill (especially as they're going to go 30 minutes each with the default product), nor do you want to go from Wolf/Vessey to Shark/Courtenay. :p

 

Along with this, in theory your semi should be your 2nd best match, at the same time you don't want it to overshadow your ME. For this reason, if I'm worried the semi will be too good I drop it back to 4th from the end (with 3rd from the end being a cooldown match) My ratings may take small hit for the semi not being as good as it could have, but the hit for the main event not being enough better than the semi is even worse.

 

I guess the quarter-main (is that even a thing?) wasn't lower ENOUGH to have much of an effect? Like saying "you can catch your breath for a while by merely sprinting instead of attempting to reach terminal velocity". Did you even use a non-upper carder on the entire show?

 

This match for me is a necessity but it is also tricky. you want to bring the crowd down just before you hit them with your semi and ME, but if you bring them down too much it may hurt your semi and thus overall card rating. This is the spot I love to use guys who are over, but don't necessarily put on great matches. Maybe Steve Flash tagging with a protege, Hell's Bouncer, or in my 70s mod game- Cpl Punishment.

 

When i get home I'll take some screen shots of cards to show what I mean.

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One of the things I noticed is to never have a super hot angle right before your Main Event. It will surely tank your main event match rating.

 

The best thing to do is have a little throw away segment right before the match to settle the crowd.

In my CGC game, I would have a segment with Hotstuff Marie getting ready backstage. This would avoid the penalty for bringing the crowds mood down.

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One of the things I noticed is to never have a super hot angle right before your Main Event. It will surely tank your main event match rating.

 

The best thing to do is have a little throw away segment right before the match to settle the crowd.

In my CGC game, I would have a segment with Hotstuff Marie getting ready backstage. This would avoid the penalty for bringing the crowds mood down.

 

The problem with having an average/poor angle right before your main event is that you might end up having a 'cold' crowd which will lower your rating. I've been trying having a really hot angle right before my semi main event but I'm still getting crowd burnout sometimes...

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The problem with having an average/poor angle right before your main event is that you might end up having a 'cold' crowd which will lower your rating. I've been trying having a really hot angle right before my semi main event but I'm still getting crowd burnout sometimes...

 

If the angle is a 1 minute throwaway angle it does not matter if it gets dinged for lowering the crowds mood because that is what it is supposed to do.

 

If you have an A+ angle, your main event will be severly lowered. If you add that segment, it will prevent your Main Event from getting knocked down. It can be the difference between an B or B- Main Event and an A Main Event.

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Kinda off topic, but what skill is 'work the crowd' actually based off? I originally thought it was charisma but I think I remember reading recently that it's psychology.

 

I think I'm getting it from both, take this with a grain of salt, but - I had a match between Artemis Eyre-Rochester (extremely charismatic) and Boo Smithson (the opposite, but great psychology) and they both got the bonus. Maybe Artie has really high psych and I don't know about it yet from fog of war.

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So you open with a poor match? I always thought it was best to open with a strong segment to get the crowd going.

 

Typical wrestling logic is to start any show with something simple and basic. Not too long. Not too gimmicky. A basic singles match to get the crowd going with a nice bit of wrestling. As long as it isn't bad, the crowd will get into it. Then as the show goes along you get more fancy. So it's not so much 'start poor' as 'start basic'. Start average.

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Typical wrestling logic is to start any show with something simple and basic. Not too long. Not too gimmicky. A basic singles match to get the crowd going with a nice bit of wrestling. As long as it isn't bad, the crowd will get into it. Then as the show goes along you get more fancy. So it's not so much 'start poor' as 'start basic'. Start average.

 

This is a video game. What works in real life may not enter into it at all.

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