TEW2020 Discussion Thread

LoganRodzen · February 27, 2019

I'm definitely curious to see how else this changes the dynamic of the game. I can't be on the only one who used the worker push filter while booking matches, can I? <img alt="

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dpoolez · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="SirMichaelJordan" data-cite="SirMichaelJordan" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Let’s not act the wrestling don’t have a history of politics and certain people getting to be chosen to reside on the top of the mountain...WWE was an example but we can take a history lesson on the entire business. I don’t remember reading anyone saying that they dislike the change.</div></blockquote> Even with that being considered, I think that adds to the point of the new way being better or more realistic. Nobody is saying that you can't, for example, push Jeff Jarrett to win 4 WCW Titles when you have Nash, Goldberg, Bret, Booker, Steiner, DDP and Sting who are perceived as more legitimate stars. You can force push him, or Billy Gunn in 1999 WWF, the same as we do now. It's just that the way the rosters are ranked are more accurately tiered to where it's based on how the AI fans perceive them than just being able to manually set them anywhere and fans being expected to take it without an issue. I think this feature will particularly work wonders for the Women's Division like Adam said. Now, you can better accurately reflect 2000s TNA where the Women were considered the bigger ratings draw at times and current WWE where you have the Women making more noise than the Men. i'm so happy I don't have to set my Women's Division to Integrated just for the old system to tier them properly amongst the roster. For that alone I welcome the new system with open arms.

Donners · February 27, 2019

On the subject of TNA, I’m curious to know whether this will be better (or indeed worse) for simulating the relatively early days of that company.

They had widely-known stars like Kurt Angle and relatively unknown indies like AJ Styles and Samoa Joe sharing the main event. A mod would properly feature a disparity in their popularity, which led to the likes of Angle bleeding popularity with every loss (or having to protect him through booking notes) - a rather frustrating booking experience.

I was hoping for a level of company-specific popularity for workers (to represent icons of a particular promotion, people who only achieved particular popularity in a certain environment, etc), but look forward to testing this system out.

dpoolez · February 27, 2019

On the subject of TNA, I’m curious to know whether this will be better (or indeed worse) for simulating the relatively early days of that company.

They had widely-known stars like Kurt Angle and relatively unknown indies like AJ Styles and Samoa Joe sharing the main event. A mod would properly feature a disparity in their popularity, which led to the likes of Angle bleeding popularity with every loss (or having to protect him through booking notes) - a rather frustrating booking experience.

I was hoping for a level of company-specific popularity for workers (to represent icons of a particular promotion, people who only achieved particular popularity in a certain environment, etc), but look forward to testing this system out.

This I agree with.

Usually, the way that mod makers handled former WWE/WCW top guys is that while they were in TNA, they would usually be B- Tier pop, while the TNA Originals who were the biggest usually topped out at C or C+ at very best, D+ or C- at absolute lowest for the less promoted ones.

I think that would be the best way to simulate a situation like 2007-2012 TNA for example. The non Originals would naturlaly lose the popularity they had in WWE and WCW because they aren't as visible and likely in time decline (there were many casual people who didnt know the Hardys and Angle were in TNA all those years. I remember seeing people thinking they retired or took a break). The TNA Originals would top out at a level where they would be Midcard or Upper Midcard if they signed to WWE, which I think is very consistent with how guys like AJ were used when he made the jump.

When it comes to the pop disparity, TNA was on Spike TV from 2005 to 2014. That's 9 years of being on a medium or big sized network, and considering the match quality those guys had, in the game Id assume they would've built Popularity fast enough being around Jarrett, Sting, Nash, Christian Cage, Steiner, Rhino, Team 3D, etc. that by the time they start fighting the Jeff Hardys and Kurt Angles, their pop would be at a point to where it wouldn't kill Kurt or Jeff to take a Keep Strong or Protect loss to Samoa Joe or AJ Styles

By the time the Bobby Roodes, James Storms, Austin Aries type wrestlers came into the main event, guys like Kurt and Jeff were yeara removed from the maximum exposure of WWE, and that combined with time decline and putting over less popular TNA Originals over time would mean they are at a point where they can lose clean without an issue.

TeemuFoundation · February 27, 2019

On the subject of TNA, I’m curious to know whether this will be better (or indeed worse) for simulating the relatively early days of that company.

They had widely-known stars like Kurt Angle and relatively unknown indies like AJ Styles and Samoa Joe sharing the main event. A mod would properly feature a disparity in their popularity, which led to the likes of Angle bleeding popularity with every loss (or having to protect him through booking notes) - a rather frustrating booking experience.

I was hoping for a level of company-specific popularity for workers (to represent icons of a particular promotion, people who only achieved particular popularity in a certain environment, etc), but look forward to testing this system out.

Yeah, company-specific popularity is something I've been wanting for a long time, as well. Companies all have their own fanbases. Bret Hart was a big deal in the WWF, but the WCW the audience never really took to him the same way. Sure, there's some overlap, but the WCW only fans weren't that into Bret. And your TNA example is very good, too. I'll reserve judgment until the entire journal is done, but I hope there is a massive popularity makeover in general. A worker being well known is different from a worker being over/a draw.

Also, CM Punk, in his heydey, is a great example of someone who was popular within the company's existing fanbase, but failed to draw outside of that bubble. He never drew new buys, he never drew new ratings. But the in-house crowds cheered him like crazy. Currently, there's no way for TEW to simulate this.

Peter.1986 · February 27, 2019

Yeah, company-specific popularity is something I've been wanting for a long time, as well. Companies all have their own fanbases. Bret Hart was a big deal in the WWF, but the WCW the audience never really took to him the same way. Sure, there's some overlap, but the WCW only fans weren't that into Bret. And your TNA example is very good, too. I'll reserve judgment until the entire journal is done, but I hope there is a massive popularity makeover in general. A worker being well known is different from a worker being over/a draw.

Also, CM Punk, in his heydey, is a great example of someone who was popular within the company's existing fanbase, but failed to draw outside of that bubble. He never drew new buys, he never drew new ratings. But the in-house crowds cheered him like crazy. Currently, there's no way for TEW to simulate this.

It’s something I’ve hoped for too. I believe everyone in the real world has a:

- company pop

- wrestling world pop

- world pop

lavelleuk · February 27, 2019

One thought I have had is I wonder how this will affect how much screen time certain people will have without a penalty. I have to admit the one "cheat" thing I do is I'll have a show that's based around a low card guy getting a title shot, so he'll have a video package, interview, and then go maybe 12-20mins with the champ. I'll increase his push before the show as a one-off to higher than it should be so he isn't penalised, guessing that won't be possible now. Not that I'm complaining as it always feels wrong even if it's rare

I'm assuming now it'll just work the same but get it penalised for unknowns rather than enchantment talents and so forth

SirMichaelJordan · February 27, 2019

Yeah, company-specific popularity is something I've been wanting for a long time, as well. Companies all have their own fanbases. Bret Hart was a big deal in the WWF, but the WCW the audience never really took to him the same way. Sure, there's some overlap, but the WCW only fans weren't that into Bret. And your TNA example is very good, too. I'll reserve judgment until the entire journal is done, but I hope there is a massive popularity makeover in general. A worker being well known is different from a worker being over/a draw.

Also, CM Punk, in his heydey, is a great example of someone who was popular within the company's existing fanbase, but failed to draw outside of that bubble. He never drew new buys, he never drew new ratings. But the in-house crowds cheered him like crazy. Currently, there's no way for TEW to simulate this.

Isn’t the new perception rating basically company specific popularity? From what we know, it sounds like it.

Peter.1986 · February 27, 2019

Isn’t the new perception rating basically company specific popularity? From what we know, it sounds like it.

That would depend if perception is based on ‘fans of the company’ or wrestling fins in general. If you sign someone doesnthen’perception’ come over with them

SirMichaelJordan · February 27, 2019

Even with that being considered, I think that adds to the point of the new way being better or more realistic.

Nobody is saying that you can't, for example, push Jeff Jarrett to win 4 WCW Titles when you have Nash, Goldberg, Bret, Booker, Steiner, DDP and Sting who are perceived as more legitimate stars. You can force push him, or Billy Gunn in 1999 WWF, the same as we do now. It's just that the way the rosters are ranked are more accurately tiered to where it's based on how the AI fans perceive them than just being able to manually set them anywhere and fans being expected to take it without an issue.

I think this feature will particularly work wonders for the Women's Division like Adam said. Now, you can better accurately reflect 2000s TNA where the Women were considered the bigger ratings draw at times and current WWE where you have the Women making more noise than the Men. i'm so happy I don't have to set my Women's Division to Integrated just for the old system to tier them properly amongst the roster. For that alone I welcome the new system with open arms.

That’s not the argument I’m making though. I’m agreed with someone who said some elements of the old way could be used. Sorting purposes and the ability to let a worker know what his role is currently. Push could also be used as promises for contracts. I’m not saying the old way is better, for all we know we can still do these things.

There should be some elements of randomness with crowd perception and some politicking sometimes keeping you from always pushing the guy most over to the championship. Otherwise it would seem cookie cutter pushing who the crowd wants. I know I can push who I want despite crowd but why would I do that if It’s all negatives? I don’t play the game from a sandbox perspective. I enjoy risk/reward.

gazwefc83 · February 27, 2019

looking forward to seeing how the perception plays out. It would be nice to be able to see a workers starting perception in the editor.

TeemuFoundation · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="gazwefc83" data-cite="gazwefc83" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>looking forward to seeing how the perception plays out. It would be nice to be able to see a workers starting perception in the editor.</div></blockquote> I mean, I'm pretty sure we will.

franticloser · February 27, 2019

Been a bit since I commented due to work stuff, but I like the new popularity system. It seems more organic and lets you have more control over how people are being presented instead of having to pigeon hole people to their push. I wonder how this works when putting to low end guys in a match together? Does it remove the penalty for having enhancement and openers in matches by themselves?

Tom Bombadil · February 27, 2019

This seems like it might be interesting, but it's new and scary and I liked the old system. I'll probably like it, but I'm reserving judgment.

Peter.1986 · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kingster" data-cite="Kingster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Love today's journal entry. I have a feeling this game will be so much different from TEW 2016 and may need some getting used to, but I don't mind it if it's for the better. I can already see complains though from people who don't like change, but I hope the development team don't let themselves be swayed by this. Yes, it seems like the crowd is running the show because it's realistic. Of course the fans decide who is over (by definition) and that's how it's been in the previous games, too. I'm not watching WWE but if the WWE isn't putting their most over wrestlers in their main events, they're just being stupid. The most over guys belong in the main event because they are the guys people come to see or tune in to watch. The game should simulate how all pro wrestling works, and not just centre around how WWE is operating.</div></blockquote> I think very few people dislike the change. I have no doubt it’s a major change and will have a major impact formthe good. I just think it was much more helpful the way people were sorted on your roster. Hopefully it can still be sorted in a similar way. The most over guys belong in the main event yes from a fans point of view. But this isn’t always the case for many reasons and the game will hopefully replicate this and give people situation where they have to go against what the fans appear to want. I’m mean that’s what playing TEW is all about

Derek B · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>#26: Pushes & perception One of the reasons I pulled the code apart and rebuilt it was to allow a rethink of some areas, particularly as some features had been in from the very earliest days of the game (and even back to EWR) simply because "that's how they've always been". Today we'll be looking at one of those fundamental changes. In the past, pushes have always been done by picking your desired choice from a list, telling the game how you want the worker to be perceived. This was a system that worked fine, but it was very much a game-y feature rather than being realistic. For TEW2020, we're ripping that system up and going with something far more natural. So, first off, picking pushes from a list is totally gone, as are any related systems (such as auto pushing, complaints about being at the wrong push level, etc). Instead, you will now see a Perception level for each worker. The Perception level, which ranges from Major Star down to Unknown, is how the fans see the worker. It is based on the worker's popularity and current momentum in comparison to the company's popularity. Unlike the old push system, this is not something you can directly edit, but is instead sensitive to how you actually use someone - so if you want to take an Unknown guy and make him into a Major Star you can't just pick it from a list, you need to book him strongly and get him over with the fans. Because momentum plays a key part in how a worker is perceived this makes Perception far more volatile than pushes, so a worker can get hot and jump up a level or two and then go back down as he cools. This makes the roster more dynamic. Of course, one major advantage of this new system is that it opens up the opportunity for fans to simply not take to a worker (or conversely to latch on to someone you weren't counting on) much more than in previous games - although you can of course try and book your way around any unexpected result. Looking at the Perception gives the user a clear view of what effect that worker is having. A Major Star is somebody who you know is going to "move the needle" when it comes to attendances and ratings, whereas your Unknowns, however talented they may be, simply haven't connected with the fan base yet. This makes it more intuitive for users to get a feel for their roster. Perception applies to everyone on the roster, which has the added advantage that it allows any divisions to be automatically taken into account - for example, unlike previous games where a women's division was a single push, in TEW2020 you could have a whole range of different Perceptions within the women. Unlike the push system, Perceptions are absolute. That is, how the worker is perceived is not calculated in relation to the rest of the roster. This means that unlike previous games you don't have to have a certain roster "shape" - you could have an entire roster of Major Stars, or only Major Stars and Unknowns and nobody in between. This makes things considerably easier for database makers to put workers in their "correct" place on the roster without needing to fudge values. It should be noted that although workers do take into account Perceptions when making decisions, they also still know their popularity too. So if you have one worker who is 10 popularity across the US and one who is 40 popularity, both working for a company that is 80 popularity, both would probably be Unknown to the fans but the second worker would still "know" that he's significantly higher up the food chain. So although Perceptions flattens out the roster in terms of the number of tiers, it doesn't make the game less detailed or nuanced. So, overall, this makes the game more realistic both in terms of how booking impacts workers and how momentum affects the fans' view, removes a lot of annoyances regarding the necessity of auto-pushing and dealing with push-based complaints, takes away a lot of clicking and general admin work from the user due to the feature's automatic nature, makes database creation significantly easier, and allows women's division (and non-wrestlers) to be better integrated into the roster.</div></blockquote> Given the way discussions are going here, I think a few posters should re-read the post as I don't think you have read it properly. A lot of what is being talked about is covered in the post itself and while I can't confirm anything beyond what the post says, the bolded sections in particular are the most relevant and should help to clear up a lot of the confusion. It should also help you to infer other things for now too, though Adam I'm sure will talk about a lot more in future too. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

SirMichaelJordan · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Peter.1986" data-cite="Peter.1986" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think very few people dislike the change. I have no doubt it’s a major change and will have a major impact formthe good. I just think it was much more helpful the way people were sorted on your roster. Hopefully it can still be sorted in a similar way. The most over guys belong in the main event yes from a fans point of view. But this isn’t always the case for many reasons and the game will hopefully replicate this and give people situation where they have to go against what the fans appear to want. I’m mean that’s what playing TEW is all about</div></blockquote> Spot on to what I’m trying to say...

TeemuFoundation · February 27, 2019

I’m not sure I understand where this idea comes from that we could no longer sort our roster when booking.

soxfan93 · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I’m not sure I understand where this idea comes from that we could no longer sort our roster when booking.</div></blockquote> I'm not, either. Honestly, I read it more as relabeling than anything else. Factoring momentum in is great, workers get hot and cool off, the business is cyclical. But a lot of people seem stuck on "Where are my upper midcarders?" rather than accepting that "Upper Midcarders" are now called something else.

SirMichaelJordan · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I’m not sure I understand where this idea comes from that we could no longer sort our roster when booking.</div></blockquote> Because no one actually said that. People are having a discussion about what they read and they read this: <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So, first off, picking pushes from a list is totally gone, as are any related systems</div></blockquote>

TeemuFoundation · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="SirMichaelJordan" data-cite="SirMichaelJordan" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Because no one actually said that. People are having a discussion about what they read and they read this:</div></blockquote> That is not true. A few people were definitely discussing the lack of roster sorting when booking shows. I think people jump the gun a bit when reading the journal since Adam is going through stuff aspect by aspect. We haven't gotten to the actual booking of shows/matches yet - and we don't know anything about it. Whatever changes have been made to match making, will be revealed on the update that is specifically about match making. At least, that's how the format seems to be. I'd be stunned if there wasn't a way to sort the roster by perception while booking. But maybe the way to book matches has been completely overhauled, and won't be at all as it has been.

Arrows · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That is not true. A few people were definitely discussing the lack of roster sorting when booking shows. I think people jump the gun a bit when reading the journal since Adam is going through stuff aspect by aspect. We haven't gotten to the actual booking of shows/matches yet - and we don't know anything about it. Whatever changes have been made to match making, will be revealed on the update that is specifically about match making. At least, that's how the format seems to be. I'd be stunned if there wasn't a way to sort the roster by perception while booking. But maybe the way to book matches has been completely overhauled, and won't be at all as it has been.</div></blockquote> Will almost certainly be ways to sort things still. He's not going to completely remove quality of life stuff we have all grown used to. If anything, it will be easier.

Sudo_Nym · February 27, 2019

I'd be willing to bet hard cash that there's going to be sorting. When Adam says that he's removing "related systems", that almost certainly means that he's taking out features that used to depend on your ability to choose a person's push- e.g. you won't be able to promise somebody in contract negotiations that they'll always be a Main Eventer. Instead, that'll probably be replaced with something else- that you'll book them strong, or to remain above X amount of momentum, or what have you. I'm sure Adam has a better view of the big picture than I do, for obvious reasons.

What I am curious about, though, is how you'll handle the non-wrestlers on the roster, for whom the drop-down menu actually made sense: how do you delineate which people are commentators vs. road agents, for example? And how do you handle people who fulfill multiple roles? It's not uncommon for a small fed to try and save some cash by using a wrestler as a road agent, for example.

SirMichaelJordan · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That is not true. A few people were definitely discussing the lack of roster sorting when booking shows. I think people jump the gun a bit when reading the journal since Adam is going through stuff aspect by aspect. We haven't gotten to the actual booking of shows/matches yet - and we don't know anything about it. Whatever changes have been made to match making, will be revealed on the update that is specifically about match making. At least, that's how the format seems to be. I'd be stunned if there wasn't a way to sort the roster by perception while booking. But maybe the way to book matches has been completely overhauled, and won't be at all as it has been.</div></blockquote> I’m sure we’ll be able to sort based on perception but that’s not what people were talking about. IMO the new feature is not a name change as someone mentioned. I don’t believe Major star = Main Event. I think the way the feature work is that a major star is someone the crowd can believe seeing in the Main event picture rather than an unknown and the ability to move the needle in both attendance and merch sales. Let’s say I have New Day on a hot streak with a great storyline and they all reach major star staus for the time being. I suspect that the crowd will accept them main eventing for now. But I instead would like to keep them on a midcard level. I know I can book them as such. I’m hoping for another factor that weight my options in doing so. Maybe they will accept the role or be alienated by it. I’m pretty much hoping for the option to let the backstage know what their place are on the roster and potentially asked to be booked higher and more frequent. As for sorting, what if I had a roster full of major stars? Obviously everyone can’t be in the mainevent so I think people hoping that a screen that lets you visually see the shape of your roster isn’t jumping the gun considering it was said that the feature and anything related to it is gone (not revamped) when it came to card position/pushes.

SirMichaelJordan · February 27, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Sudo_Nym" data-cite="Sudo_Nym" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'd be willing to bet hard cash that there's going to be sorting. When Adam says that he's removing "related systems", that almost certainly means that he's taking out features that used to depend on your ability to choose a person's push- e.g. you won't be able to promise somebody in contract negotiations that they'll always be a Main Eventer. Instead, that'll probably be replaced with something else- that you'll book them strong, or to remain above X amount of momentum, or what have you. I'm sure Adam has a better view of the big picture than I do, for obvious reasons. What I am curious about, though, is how you'll handle the non-wrestlers on the roster, for whom the drop-down menu actually made sense: how do you delineate which people are commentators vs. road agents, for example? And how do you handle people who fulfill multiple roles? It's not uncommon for a small fed to try and save some cash by using a wrestler as a road agent, for example.</div></blockquote> And this is what people are hoping.

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