TEW2020 Discussion Thread

Adam Ryland · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ArcheoOutOfNowhere" data-cite="ArcheoOutOfNowhere" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Just read the new entry and I have a question...</div></blockquote> For scenarios like you've described you'd need to use the booking instructions that are specific to an event; an event's individual settings always take precedent over any AI Booking Style instructions.

Matt_Black · May 7, 2019

As someone who uses the auto booker quite a bit, I'm very much looking forward to the new AI system.

S_Joker · May 7, 2019

Fantastic stuff.

southside_hitmen · May 7, 2019

Really excited about the new product ratio/AI Booking in that it now is taking context into account at all. Should make things much easier going forward.

I know you mentioned the list isn't final on the list of different booking styles, so as a hope that we get some variance within the different basic/puro/lucha styles here are the actual match ratios of real world companies over the past 2 years (Yes, I'm a maniac and have actually charted these off of cagematch for every company in Real World Chronicles).

I'm happy to do these at a historical level (i.e. 90's AJPW) if it will help as well.

The point of all that above, is that you mentioned there might be more to add to the "styles" part of AI booking and I'm hoping they'll be a suggestions/ability to patch in new ones thread just like products as people unearth different styles while looking at different companies.

<img alt="edk9wHa.png" data-src="https://i.imgur.com/edk9wHa.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

You can see BJW, DDT, NJPW and DG run ~30% singles matches, while AJPW, NOAH, STARDOM, and W-1 are around 40%, and ZERO1, Sendai, OZ are closer to 50%. So, while the distance from BJW to NJPW isn't that different, BJW to ZERO1 (22% singles to 50% singles) is very different. It feels like there should be maybe 3 puro "styles" from the above to use as a base, then let the individual product of each company tweak.

Also of note, hardly any 3 or 4 way matches for anyone in Japan outside of Stardom and SEAdLINNNG.

<img alt="UZ1vgzD.png" data-src="https://i.imgur.com/UZ1vgzD.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

In the UK/AUS it's a lot more homogenized with maybe 2 ratios in general and EVE as the outlier.

<img alt="1AMoBc2.png" data-src="https://i.imgur.com/1AMoBc2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

Canada looks similar to the UK, while Mexico has IWRG which almost looks like NJPW's ratio, DTU and AA who run a ton of tag matches, and CMLL who runs an absurd amount of six-man's.

<img alt="zlZCDXM.png" data-src="https://i.imgur.com/zlZCDXM.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

Finally, USA where ROH and Chikara are the only ones who make any heavy use of 6-man matches.

Again, SOOOO excited that AI will take touring shows into context now, should really help make things feel more realistic. Thanks!

cappyboy · May 7, 2019

Glad to see we're getting into booking mechanics now. That means the big question I have is getting closer to an answer. But seeing that we're on the AI booking right now, it may be a couple weeks or so before I get my answer.

That said, I get the feeling today's entry will be one we have more thoughts on once we have the game in front of us and in play. It sounds good enough on the esoteric level but kind of ho-hummy at the same time. But then I also don't typically get to the point in my games where the competition between promotions matters too much. To those that do, there may already be cause for celebration somewhere here.

K-Nection · May 7, 2019

That latest announcement has me deeply intrigued!

Tom Bombadil · May 7, 2019

I like having more control, but if it leads to better cards, maybe that's a tradeoff I'm willing to make.

I kinda feel like I'm seeing a trend towards a more streamlined game with a broader appeal but less depth. That's probably a smart move overall but for me personally I'm starting to get a weird vibe.

Adam Ryland · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Tom Bombadil" data-cite="Tom Bombadil" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I kinda feel like I'm seeing a trend towards a more streamlined game with a broader appeal but less depth.</div></blockquote> Perhaps I didn't explain the feature well enough, but you have gained depth, not lost it, with this new feature - even if you take it at its most literal, you've gone from 10 pieces of information (5 sliders for event, 5 sliders for TV) to well over 40 (8+ sliders' worth of data for each of the five types), without taking into account the fact the it now can take into account context and can be further modified by product. You've lost some direct control, replaced by indirect control, but any way you cut it the depth has increased.

MrVillain · May 7, 2019

I am very much aware of that I'm behind in this question seeing how I just found this thread. Will TV Ratings and PPV Ratings matter in TEW 2020? If two rivals run a show or ppv on the same day and timeslots will it actually matter this game and not just be a cosmetic feature? Or if a marker promotion holds an event will a small promotion suffer in ratings and attendance?

edenborn · May 7, 2019

The new AI booking style is a welcome improvement. Very much appreciate the nod toward realism, the understanding of puro, and the forward-thinking ability for companies to evolve. That's dope. However...<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>When creating a card, the AI Booking Style then gets modified by the Product, which we looked at last week. The Product allows the AI to work out what matches to use, what ratio of matches to angles there should be, what sort of finishes are appropriate, whether certain matches are more appropriate than others in certain situations, etc - basically, it's taking the generic structure and making it unique to that product. To take the house analogy further, this is like putting in the brick work, connecting up the electrics and plumbing, etc. I don't normally cover things that are yet to be done in this journal, but I will add a side note here that there is planned to be a third layer in this system. The idea is that the head booker's style and stats will come into play to add a further level of modification. To really stretch the house analogy to breaking point, this would be adding in the furniture and painting the walls. This is something that we'll likely be returning to in the next phase of the journal when we go "live". The final phase is then to apply the bits and pieces of AI-improving features that we've already mentioned in the journal: things like the new tag team settings and stables, for example, which are designed to do a better job of teams than we've managed in the past. There's also some stuff that we'll be covering in the future: for example, the way that title reigns work has been changed to be more realistic. All these little things just boost the AI's realism a little more.</div></blockquote>Great as this all is, where's the storytelling? An impressive array of metrics is just an impressive array of metrics. A slick-looking house is just a slick-looking house; that doesn't make it a home. Question: "On the final TV show before the PPV, you booked a tag main event. Tell me why you did that." AI Booker: "This company books tag matches with some frequency; nothing precludes a tag match from a basic TV show; the booker character has a quirk where he prefers tag matches slightly more than usual, etc." Human Booker: "What he said, sure. But mostly, I wanted to give the fans good reason to buy the PPV. See, our babyface World Champion looks indestructible and he's much bigger than his PPV opponent, so I had the heel cheat to win on TV, to make fans think maybe this despicable cheater has the champ's number on the PPV. Right? Tune in and find out! Now I couldn't book this as a singles match because that would have been giving the PPV main event away for free! So instead I made it a tag, bridging our two hottest storylines together, etc."

Tom Bombadil · May 7, 2019

Not quite following re:depth, but I'll take your word for it, thanks! <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="edenborn" data-cite="edenborn" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Great as this all is, where's the storytelling?</div></blockquote> I feel like this might be asking a bit much of procedural-generation booking. (unless you want it replaced with, like, WS3/Older-TEW style set piece storylines, which I certainly don't)

Adam Ryland · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="edenborn" data-cite="edenborn" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The new AI booking style is a welcome improvement. Very much appreciate the nod toward realism, the understanding of puro, and the forward-thinking ability for companies to evolve. That's dope. However...Great as this all is, where's the storytelling? An impressive array of metrics is just an impressive array of metrics. A slick-looking house is just a slick-looking house; that doesn't make it a home. Question: "On the final TV show before the PPV, you booked a tag main event. Tell me why you did that." AI Booker: "This company books tag matches with some frequency; nothing precludes a tag match from a basic TV show; the booker character has a quirk where he prefers tag matches slightly more than usual, etc." Human Booker: "What he said, sure. But mostly, I wanted to give the fans good reason to buy the PPV. See, our babyface World Champion looks indestructible and he's much bigger than his PPV opponent, so I had the heel cheat to win on TV, to make fans think maybe this despicable cheater has the champ's number on the PPV. Right? Tune in and find out! Now I couldn't book this as a singles match because that would have been giving the PPV main event away for free! So instead I made it a tag, bridging our two hottest storylines together, etc."</div></blockquote> As Tom Bombadil noted above, your expectations seem overly high - from a coding point of view, translating your "Human Booker" reasoning, or even a simplified version, into a computer program would take AI of an extraordinary complexity due to the sheer amount of variables.

MrVillain · May 7, 2019

Is my question not worthy enough to answer?

Bigpapa42 · May 7, 2019

haven't posted as much as I should've on a lot of these features, because I feel repetitive as heck to keep saying "Oh, that sounds awesome."

But....

Oh, that sounds awesome.

Liking the sounds of the changes.

Hive · May 7, 2019

Very interesting changes indeed that I look forward to tinkering with. <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="southside_hitmen" data-cite="southside_hitmen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I know you mentioned the list isn't final on the list of different booking styles, so as a hope that we get some variance within the different basic/puro/lucha styles here are the actual match ratios of real world companies over the past 2 years (Yes, I'm a maniac and have actually charted these off of cagematch for every company in Real World Chronicles). I'm happy to do these at a historical level (i.e. 90's AJPW) if it will help as well.</div></blockquote> That's funny, I actually recently started doing the same - for the mid 90's. I didn't think anyone else would go to such lengths. <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> I second that we need variances between the different "puro" companies, for example. While I didn't go through the entire year for either company, and based my calculations on just 13 shows for each company, the difference between AJPW and NJPW in 1995 was quite significant: AJPW had 36 % 1v1 matches, NJPW had 54 %. AJPW had 40 % 2v2 matches, NJPW had 39 %. AJPW had 24 % 3v3 matches, NJPW had 7 %.

Adam Ryland · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MrVillian" data-cite="MrVillian" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I am very much aware of that I'm behind in this question seeing how I just found this thread. Will TV Ratings and PPV Ratings matter in TEW 2020? If two rivals run a show or ppv on the same day and timeslots will it actually matter this game and not just be a cosmetic feature? Or if a marker promotion holds an event will a small promotion suffer in ratings and attendance?</div></blockquote> See entry #30.

edenborn · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>As Tom Bombadil noted above, your expectations seem overly high - from a coding point of view, translating your "Human Booker" reasoning, or even a simplified version, into a computer program would take AI of an extraordinary complexity due to the sheer amount of variables.</div></blockquote>Adam, that may be so, and surely your knowledge on the subject is greater than mine. It's one thing for me to make suggestions in a message forum and quite another for you to actually code the game. My read on this, though, is that the primary goal of an AI booker is to approximate human booking. Human booking is purposeful. Human booking tells stories. I don't think my expectations are overly high when I say TEW 2020 could make solid attempts on both fronts. Right now, TEW 2016's AI doesn't think ahead much. Every show, it's flying by the seat of its pants. But a purposeful human booker does think ahead. "What do I want to accomplish this month? Okay, now how do I go about it?" As a human booker, you might build up a dangerous looking challenger with an impressive winning streak, and then feed that challenger to your champion on PPV. That's a coherent strategy -- it doesn't happen randomly via a series of meters. During that PPV match, you might notice that the champion and challenger have great chemistry. Acting with purpose, you now choose to extend their feud. Why can't TEW 2020 do the same thing? *** IF the PPV match = unexpectedly great AND the AI booker's skill > random roll THEN extend storyline by random number of months *** That's one of the fundamentals of good booking, isn't it? "Hey, this feud is making money, so let's keep it going. As long as the fans are willing to spend money on it." Let's say you decide one of your tag wrestlers would be better off as a singles star. Now you need a storyline that dissolves the tag team. How should you do this? There are a few ways, of course, but they're likely to fall into tried and true categories. For example, give the team a painful loss, turn one tag member heel, and then feud the former partners against each other for a few months with the singles star emerging victorious in the blow off match. This scenario happens with great frequency in the real world. In TEW 2020, obviously if it happened every single time an AI tag team broke up, that would be no good. But for TEW 2020 to never think about how and why it might realistically want to break up a tag team, that's not so good either. Have you written off any and all purposeful, forward-looking AI booking as too complicated to even attempt? I hope not -- because even some rudimentary moves in this direction might help keep us invested in the fantasy of the game, believing we're competing against another actual storyteller, and not just a bunch of "on-the-fly" random numbers masquerading as such.

WYSmooth · May 7, 2019

Tours

With tours will the ability to announce cards ahead of time be possible, to build up anticipation?

It seems the contract system won't call for companies to book talent for specific dates (would eliminate the preference system/cause some hits to reputation if a worker skips out on a guaranteed date for another show).

Announcing tour cards would give a realistic feel and build up, especially when teamed with today's announcement of more accurate card setups.

MrVillain · May 7, 2019

Yeah I wish you'd bring back the heat rating for announcing matches like in older versions of TEW. Is that gonna make a return?

Adam Ryland · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="edenborn" data-cite="edenborn" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Have you written off any and all purposeful, forward-looking AI booking as too complicated to even attempt?</div></blockquote> AI booking of the level you're imagining is not viable for me to add, no. What you're outlining may sound pretty simple from the outside looking in, and I fully appreciate that people who aren't coders can't be expected to take the internal workings into account, but it's very difficult to achieve in a game where companies can have such a huge variety of situations because of the sheer amount of variables that are in play. We did look into some variations of it and it was clear almost immediately that it wasn't even remotely attainable. That is not to say that there aren't some simulations of forward thinking included, but they are just that - simulations. Having the AI actually plan several moves ahead is far too difficult to actually have, for the reasons already outlined. EDIT - Just to underline in case it wasn't clear: I'm not saying it's impossible to do what you're suggesting. It could be that someone else will make a TEW-style game and come up with a clever way of doing it. I'm just saying that I've looked into it and I don't see it being feasible, so if it is do-able then it's simply beyond my range.

TeemuFoundation · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MrVillian" data-cite="MrVillian" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah I wish you'd bring back the heat rating for announcing matches like in older versions of TEW. Is that gonna make a return?</div></blockquote> I feel like this would be a little redundant, actually. A match, in my eyes, is as hot as A) its angle, and B) its competitors. We already have storyline heat and worker popularity. And I feel like those two factors are what create match hype and heat.

Historian · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MrVillian" data-cite="MrVillian" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah I wish you'd bring back the heat rating for announcing matches like in older versions of TEW. Is that gonna make a return?</div></blockquote> It hasn't been announced by Adam yet, but it has been suggested several times in the suggestions forum.

Adam Ryland · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="WYSmooth" data-cite="WYSmooth" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>With tours will the ability to announce cards ahead of time be possible, to build up anticipation?</div></blockquote> Sorry, I don't answer "is X in?" questions here: just to recap, if I start doing that then the journal becomes redundant and I'd get inundated with people asking about their specific pet suggestion.

Historian · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I feel like this would be a little redundant, actually. A match, in my eyes, is as hot as A) its angle, and B) its competitors. We already have storyline heat and worker popularity. And I feel like those two factors are what create match hype and heat.</div></blockquote> Not always. It does if the two workers are involved in a storyline, but my counter point is this -- not every product requires storylines [MAW's Old School Product for instance] so unless you have a storyline, you can't get the benefit there. Also, if you're bringing in someone, like the COTT World Champion and you want to announce in advance Nicolas Lopez versus Greg Gauge at the Rip Chord Invitational for the COTT World Title, right now there's no way for that to have build up heat. What I'd love (and have suggested before) is to see a similar use of the functionality in WMMA for your ability to hype a match between workers. It could mean they were hyping it a lot on social media, etc, but we'll see. If it's not in there, it won't make me not like the game.

TeemuFoundation · May 7, 2019

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Historian" data-cite="Historian" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Not always. It does if the two workers are involved in a storyline, but my counter point is this -- not every product requires storylines [MAW's Old School Product for instance] so unless you have a storyline, you can't get the benefit there. Also, if you're bringing in someone, like the COTT World Champion and you want to announce in advance Nicolas Lopez versus Greg Gauge at the Rip Chord Invitational for the COTT World Title, right now there's no way for that to have build up heat. What I'd love (and have suggested before) is to see a similar use of the functionality in WMMA for your ability to hype a match between workers. It could mean they were hyping it a lot on social media, etc, but we'll see. If it's not in there, it won't make me not like the game.</div></blockquote> Then it goes back to the overness of the competitors. And this is already part of the match rating calculation.

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