TEW2020 Discussion Thread

[Historian]

In 2016, your options for a women's wrestling were None, Division, or Entire Company, and this setting was independent of your actual product. I would be shocked if this was changed; the entry almost certainly means that the generic "Division" entry is being replaced, so now your options for women's wrestling will be None, Small, Medium, Large, or Entire Company.

 

I said something similar, but yours made me think of how nice it's going to be to set the roster size for the women's division. It would allow a company to say, start a division because of graduates from a dojo and then slowly grow it.

[WCGreyghost]

The new way of handling products sounds good, so long as I can still tweak things like match/angle ratio expectations...

[EnforcerM]

I'm curious, with all the unethical stuff coming out of WWE right now, will TEW2020 add these actions to the game? Stuff like adding time to a person on a written contract if they are injured or you simply don't use them (so they can't work anywhere)? Increased injuries for companies that wronfully exploit their workers? Major scandals regarding this behavior (and stuff like the Saudi Arabia deal), which while reprehensible, is perfectly 100% legal should be able to drop a company's popularity and image by 50% or more (WWE's attendances show it to be around 50-60 pop worldwide in TEW2016 terms, nowhere near where it was 19 years ago and closer to 1993-1995 levels)? Just curious how realistic TEW2020 is gonna be especially with everything we know now given all the "unethical and horrible but perfectly legal" stuff happening in corporate wrestling in the last six months to year. In addition, will it be possible for the game world to change to be "unfriendly to major corporations" to simulate a possible left-leaning government that cracks down on such behavior. Should be interesting given the state of the world of wrestling right now, bit not sure how complicated Mr. Ryland can make TEW2020 (and these things would be complex to add). I'm not even sure what size WWE would count as anymore, they don't draw well at home at all, so would they be a Global Cult promotion or something?

[Kingster]

I'm not over the moon either about the new "simplified" product system, but I think we'll have to see how it actually works in order to tell if it's good or bad. I'm really hoping for a wide variety of pre-set products.

I'm predicting now that this'll mean the end for Cornellverse promotions like VWA, ZEN or maybe even QAW, as their products seem to fall in the category of what Adam Ryland describes as "crazy thinking-outside-the-box" products.

 

I would have actually liked to see a more in-depth product set up with dynamic products that evolve according to the player's booking.

[southside_hitmen]

First dev journal entry that’s a big disappointment for me.

 

Playing with products in my personal games, when modding with Fleisch on Real World Chronicles, or in doing Uncrewed’s drafts in the mod forum is one of my favorite things about the game.

 

As someone who spends more time modding than actually playing lately, a “simplified” system is a big miss in my book.

 

There is no way every product ever is going to be able to be pre-set in the game. Even products that look similar like AJPW/NOAH or Sendai/Seadlinnng have little nuances between them. NJPW and AJPW are nothing alike. There is too many variations to model them all correctly.

 

Not a fan of this one.

[Dropkick]

This products improvement is significant and much needed. Heres hoping its correlated with regional trends to determine how easy/hard it is to succeed, much like reality.

[stratusfaction]

First dev journal entry that’s a big disappointment for me.

 

Playing with products in my personal games, when modding with Fleisch on Real World Chronicles, or in doing Uncrewed’s drafts in the mod forum is one of my favorite things about the game.

 

As someone who spends more time modding than actually playing lately, a “simplified” system is a big miss in my book.

 

There is no way every product ever is going to be able to be pre-set in the game. Even products that look similar like AJPW/NOAH or Sendai/Seadlinnng have little nuances between them. NJPW and AJPW are nothing alike. There is too many variations to model them all correctly.

 

Not a fan of this one.

 

I'm also a little disappointed in this change. I feel like this will limit the amount of actually different product companies because like you said, there is no way every product will be able to be pre-set in the game.

 

I really enjoy coming up with random crazy outside the box products and just hoping for the best. Pre-sets will really limit this ability.

 

What if a new real life company comes around with a totally new product that is a different combination than the pre-sets that we get with the game? Are we just out of luck?

[southside_hitmen]

I'm also a little disappointed in this change. I feel like this will limit the amount of actually different product companies because like you said, there is no way every product will be able to be pre-set in the game.

 

I really enjoy coming up with random crazy outside the box products and just hoping for the best. Pre-sets will really limit this ability.

 

What if a new real life company comes around with a totally new product that is a different combination than the pre-sets that we get with the game? Are we just out of luck?

 

I agree.

 

Not to be "that guy", but this is how Fleisch and I have RWC set up just in Japan. No two products are exactly the same.

 

 

So that's 12 different products right there, and again we are only in 1 region of 1 real world mod.

 

I'm sure you would see the same in the CVerse if you looked, the products are pretty diverse.

 

Also, we already have preset products on the product screen?

 

I like the "moving towards" idea of the products as mentioned in the post, but again, not a fan of a simplified system as it will be too limiting.

[Kiheiji]

I echo the people not liking the new(?) product system. Seems like a big step backwards just coz some people thought PWG was pure wrestling, IMO. No need to go back to TEW 2005

[Vladamire Dracos]

Will the game give you an indication of how long a change will take to come into effect and/or how significant the change is?

 

Looking at the most recognizable shift in product, you had WWF going from wholly Family Entertainment to distinctly Attitude which arguably took over two years, assuming Survivor Series 95 with Bret's table bump as the start and WMXIV with the coronation of Austin as the culmination of that change.

 

WCW's move from afterthought to powerhouse took in the cartoony Hogan era (mid 94 to late 95) before taking on elements of ECW/lucha libre with the cruiserweight influx that more-or-less coincided with the debut of Nitro, before solidifying with the debut of the nWo in mid-96 and then (to its detriment) staying pretty much as was for the next 3 years. What exactly you might call WCW's product after 1999 is for a whole other product!

 

One could argue that the constant switches between head bookers led to constant shifts between products which led to a longer change period and more disruption that were ultimately to the promotions detriment by 1999. Perhaps the new game could reflect that in the rules, so that if the Current Product is frequently changed in a short period of time it negatively effects Popularity?

[BuddyGarner]

With the new less flexible system. One thing I'd like to see is for instance not being dinged for having say an occasional comedy match or any other match that relied on setting it to medium since we're no longer able to tweak that setting.

[southside_hitmen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BuddyGarner" data-cite="BuddyGarner" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>With the new less flexible system. One thing I'd like to see is for instance not being dinged for having say an occasional comedy match or any other match that relied on setting it to medium since we're no longer able to tweak that setting.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This ^^^</p><p> </p><p> Take FMW for example IRL. The main event was usually explosions and death matches, but the undercard wasn't all deathmatch. Whether it was a goofy lucha match, an MMA vs. wrestler technical match, or Megumi Kudo clinic in AJW-style wrestling, the undercard was varied and interesting. It wasn't just "it's a deathmatch company so all matches must involve explosions". A quick look at their anniversary shows displays a product that can't be replicated right now in TEW.</p><p> </p><p> Instead of pre-sets or increase to danger/intensity, it should be what people expect to see in the main event or "match focus" type requirements for the product. The setup is like 90% of the way there in the current iteration of product settings, please don't burn it down and pigeon-hole us into pre-sets.</p><p> </p><p> Of course add more pre-sets if you wish, but to say company A is the same as company B because we only have at best ~20 pre-sets in 2020 due to UI/layout issues in product selection takes a lot of the fun out of modeling how things happen in real life or in fantasy universe setups. The 12-15 pre-sets we have now already feels cumbersome, adding more won’t help that feeling.</p><p> </p><p> Again, I have to say that 99% of the stuff mentioned in the dev journal I'm excited about, but this one was not one of them. Not only will every company feel generic, but more importantly if we have pre-set products those companies are going to target the same kind of workers and it's going to have knock-on effects in AI behavior when it comes to signing/firing workers with multiple companies gunning for the same EXACT type of worker.</p><p> </p><p> Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.</p>

[shawn michaels]

<p>Can't say I fully support this recent entry. It would have been better to find a balance in which you can cater both the simplified system for those who want it (which would be popular) and still keep a system that allows for the more hardcore fans to create new products and tweak with settings. Because while changes were much needed to a system that a lot of people did not understand, reverting to a pre-dated system is just flabbergasting. Unless you're willing to include hundreds of suggestions in this thread you are gonna create, you will get a lot of complaints.</p><p> </p><p>

So many new stuff coming to the game and yet we have the completely opposite for products? A reversion? I understand the thinking behind it. It is simpler, more user friendly, etc, but it is also much more limiting if one can't create new products. It's not a small drawback as you put it. The people trying to create new products were probably more than what anticipated.</p><p> </p><p>

Much like the user reputation update, i feel that this is one that brings positive changes, but overall maintains bigger problems.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

I'm actually a big fan of a more streamlined, simplified approach. To most things, honestly. I know there are different types of players, but I'm one who thinks that too much freedom can sometimes be too much. I like being in a box and figuring out how the box works. Whenever I have too many choices, I can never really make up my mind and it all becomes too overwhelming. This just makes life easier, so it's a big quality of life improvement, and gets a thumbs up from me.

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Seraphina" data-cite="Seraphina" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Will there still be an option to set your "women's division" to be company wide, or with the changes to product settings are women only company's going to be relegated to some kind of niche or pigeon hole?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It'll still be the same as it was before. You can assume that if I don't mention something being changed, it hasn't been changed - if a massive change was taking place, it'd be specified in the journal.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kingster" data-cite="Kingster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm predicting now that this'll mean the end for Cornellverse promotions like VWA, ZEN or maybe even QAW, as their products seem to fall in the category of what Adam Ryland describes as "crazy thinking-outside-the-box" products.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That really wouldn't be the case. Outside-the-box products are where they don't make any sense, like having a Pure - Mainstream - Daredevil company. None of the ones you described are like that (also, the fact that Comic Book Lucha Libre was explicitly mentioned as one of the options should indicate that ZEN are covered anyway).</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="stratusfaction" data-cite="stratusfaction" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>What if a new real life company comes around with a totally new product that is a different combination than the pre-sets that we get with the game? Are we just out of luck?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is explicitly covered in the journal.</p>

[batsnumbereleven]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm actually a big fan of a more streamlined, simplified approach. To most things, honestly. I know there are different types of players, but I'm one who thinks that too much freedom can sometimes be too much. I like being in a box and figuring out how the box works. Whenever I have too many choices, I can never really make up my mind and it all becomes too overwhelming. This just makes life easier, so it's a big quality of life improvement, and gets a thumbs up from me.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is me, as well. I'm more interested in working with what's there rather than trying to create something new, but I found the TEW2016 product screen to be hard work to try and create anything and have an understanding of what the impacts would be.</p><p> </p><p> I can see that those who go into a lot of depth with "known" existing promotions or who like to set up their own companies might like the granularity that was there before, but I'm certainly not going to complain about it being simplified.</p>

[Markw]

Apologies if it's been asked and I've missed it. But is it not possible to make the master list of products moddable but maintain the new system of just selecting one of those pre-defined products for an organisation?

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Markw" data-cite="Markw" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Apologies if it's been asked and I've missed it. But is it not possible to make the master list of products moddable but maintain the new system of just selecting one of those pre-defined products for an organisation?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't see much benefit to that system as you'd effectively be getting the worst of both worlds - it's worse than TEW2016's system as you'd have a limited number of slots, and it's worse than TEW2020 as you'd be losing one of the primary advantages of the new system in that you wouldn't be able have hand-crafted, unique effects to model specific real world products if it's moddable.</p>

[Zeel1]

I'll wait and see on how this product system goes, but I am a little curious as to how this will work with converting promotions from 2016 databases to 2020, as it pertains to existing custom products. I would assume that 2020 will try and get it to the closest approximation through the presets, in which case, how effective that would be is probably gonna be a good litmus test for this system.

[Cold Cobra]

As someone who only used a small handful of products over and over "because they seem to work" and are close to what the real life promotions are like, I'm happy with the change, but I understand why some are upset.

[southside_hitmen]

<p>Under this new system, will we have any ability whatsoever to create our own product (just like the “create match” button in picking match types or freestyle angles)?</p><p> </p><p>

How many “pre-set” products do you anticipate having? If we are talking the entire history of wrestling that’s a ton of different products to model, and it doesn’t include fantasy setups.</p><p> </p><p>

A lot of companies have found success throughout history by product innovation that didn’t fit a mold before their creation.</p><p>

DDT, UWFi, FMW, Dragon Gate, etc... all were products that didn’t exist until someone dreamed them up and meshed different styles together that on paper shouldn’t have worked. I feel like this system is taking the creative spark out of products.</p><p> </p><p>

Freestyle angles are a thing because people didn’t want to deal with 1,000s of pre-sets. Same with creating a match type.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="southside_hitmen" data-cite="southside_hitmen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Under this new system, will we have any ability whatsoever to create our own product (just like the “create match” button in picking match types or freestyle angles)?<p> </p><p> How many “pre-set” products do you anticipate having? If we are talking the entire history of wrestling that’s a ton of different products to model, and it doesn’t include fantasy setups.</p></div></blockquote><p> It was covered in the journal update itself that it's very easy for Adam to add new pre-made products into the game, in the form of patches, and that the community will get the opportunity to give suggestions. Chillax, guys.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<p>I actually understand the reasoning for the product change. Anytime I half-modded or changed anything on someone else's mod, I modeled NPC product values after already established values, but.... </p><p> </p><p>

When I made my own company in-game, I used my own unique settings. Especially when playing the C-Verse. So... I guess we can still do that with having current and core settings, but it does feel like we are losing something worthwhile in that aspect.</p>

[RingRider]

<p>My initial reaction to the product changes was slight confusion mixed with disappointment that the game may be limiting the ability to customize products at a minute level. </p><p> </p><p> 24 hours later, after seeing some strong reactions to the announcement I re-read the entry today and found this piece to be most important:</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The upgrade to this is that each of the products has been custom made. <strong>So whereas TEW2016 gave you a list of pros, cons, and effects that were fairly generic, the new system makes sure that each product has been hand crafted to be as accurate as possible, and is therefore much deeper.</strong></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The more I think about it, this system will most likely be a deeper, and better constructed product system from top to bottom. As the GDS community shares more product ideas in the suggestions forum, I can't imagine there will be a promotion that will not be able to be replicated.</p>

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="southside_hitmen" data-cite="southside_hitmen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>How many “pre-set” products do you anticipate having?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> One or more for each "name" real world company and then a sizeable selection of general types. I don't know how many that will end up as we haven't opened the suggestion thread yet.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="southside_hitmen" data-cite="southside_hitmen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Freestyle angles are a thing because people didn’t want to deal with 1,000s of pre-sets. Same with creating a match type.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> 1 - It's significantly faster to find the right product in TEW2020 than it is to build one using TEW2016.</p><p> </p><p> 2 - Finding the right product does not take long. Especially for real world companies, we're talking seconds.</p>