The All Elite Wrestling Discussion Thread

[milamber]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="jameschaos" data-cite="jameschaos" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46243" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>while not a stacked as the mens roster their women are good wrestlers, just need to be established a bit more, and Britt (with the exception of the first promo, has been doing great heel work.)</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> They can still push Bea, Jamie, Shanna, Kris and Yuka (depending on availability) before they need to go on a signing spree. Britt can be used better as a heel now if they're careful who they put her in the ring with.</p>

[Jaysin]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="jameschaos" data-cite="jameschaos" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46243" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>while not a stacked as the mens roster their women are good wrestlers, just need to be established a bit more, and Britt (with the exception of the first promo, has been doing great heel work.)</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I strongly disagree. Nyla vs Riho this past week was the first good match AEW’s women’s division has had. They’re all sloppy and green as hell.</p><p> </p><p> Britt Baker is the literal worst. She’s a terrible worker and her promos make me want to stick a screwdriver in my ear. The only reason people give a crap about her is because she’s Adam Cole’s lady.</p>

[Self]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="jameschaos" data-cite="jameschaos" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46243" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>while not a stacked as the mens roster their women are good wrestlers, just need to be established a bit more, and Britt (with the exception of the first promo, has been doing great heel work.)</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I also disagree. They have some <em>promising</em> wrestlers who could be good in the future, but they're just working with each other, and very few combinations are working. Rose & Riho had a really good match. I remember Statlander having one I liked against either Shida or Bea. Everything else has been sloppy and poor. And it's a case of experience. Every other division has 10+ year veterans in it, at an adult level, at a high level, and it shows. The more experienced girls are from Japan, and I don't know if there's a language barrier, or if Joshi matches don't have striking, but they're not leading things in the way I'm sure it looked like they would on paper. </p><p> </p><p> Yes, getting them over would help. The crowd this week really elevated all of the matches because they vocally cared about the characters.</p>

[milamber]

Not running house shows doesn't help with chemistry. A 2 hour B show will help with that over time. Also while AEW let talent do their own thing between shows they should be more active in arranging work for those who need it most. The greener/underutlized talent should be sent to other companies AEW are on good terms with like GCW, Beyond, DDT, Tokyo Joshi, Stardom and House of Glory for mini-tours. Even NXT send talent to Evolve for experience in addition to having a busy house show loop.

[Self]

Dark was really good.

 

- Shoko vs Riho was great. Shoko looked strong in defeat.

 

Just watched this show, and this was really fun. I'm assuming because they have a lot of experience working together and weren't afraid to lay things in when it mattered. Lovely 619 spot. Where have they been hiding Shoto? She looked great.

[milamber]

Just watched this show, and this was really fun. I'm assuming because they have a lot of experience working together and weren't afraid to lay things in when it mattered. Lovely 619 spot. Where have they been hiding Shoto? She looked great.

 

Shoko and Yuka are from TJPW (Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling) and are former and current Champion in that company respectively. Shoko also did a short tour in Mexico recently, so their availability isn't the best. Riho used to freelance in TJPW occasionally and is a good stylistic match for Shoko and Yuka. Bea and Jamie (Stardom) are also in the same boat in that their commitments in Japan keep them from appearing too often. Riho is also with Stardom but splits her time about 60-40 in favor of AEW.

[Greylocke]

I'm finding it hard to get behind AEW's top babyfaces besides Cody, who's still doing great.

 

I've never found Moxley's AEW character to be very likeable to begin with, but recent development really made it worse for me. Moxley turning down Inner Circle's recruitment offer was expected, and there's nothing wrong with that itself, but the segment dragged way too long and overstayed its welcome for me. And after he decided to steal the car I couldn't summon any sympathy for him for getting the beatdown from Inner Circle.

 

Then the Inner Circle took out his eye, which I thought was a great heel move, and I thought maybe, just maybe, I can finally root for the wronged babyface against the dastardly heels....except they went and undo all that work by having Moxley sink down to their level the following week. Okay, this isn't the first time a face gets pushed over the edge and starts doing questionable deeds to fight against the odds, but their reactions after that don't help establish him as the guy who deserves more sympathy. Moxley cut some generic promo rambling about abstract honour while Santana actually gave a good emotional interview giving us some nice relatable backstory about his blind dad. Santana did MUCH better at gaining my sympathy and I found myself rooting for him and wanting him to kick Moxley's ass in last week's main event.

 

Moxley supposedly wanted out of WWE because he wanted the creative freedom they refused to give him. As far as I can see, he's not making very good use of that freedom. I can't believe I'd say this, but the Dean Ambrose who was trying to avenged a shattered potted plant was a more likeable face than Moxley (not that it says very much).

 

And then there's the one other main event-level babyface they have, Kenny Omega.....the tag team story with Page is fine, but that feud with PAC is making Kenny look like a condescending prick for blatantly not even acknowledging PAC's challenge. PAC wasn't even making some ridiculous demand like MJF. Him wanting a rubber match with Omega was a perfectly reasonable request, and for WEEKS Kenny refused to respond to that. What kind of babyface would constantly duck a request for rematch? He wasn't even asked to put anything on the line like Cody did. If he was just waiting for Tony Khan to approve the match, he could easily have said so, considering he was on TV every week. It's really grating to watch the "bastard" heel constantly challenging a face that keeps ducking him.

 

And PAC was right: obviously, Nakazawa meant nothing to Omega. If this ends with Nakazawa turning on Omega and costing him the rubber match it'd make perfect sense. And he'd absolutely deserve it.

[Acey]

Mox isn't meant to be a traditional heel. He's an anti-hero. I guess you could compare him to Punk in that regard - he kind of acts like a heel but is meant to be supported.

 

I do agree that AEW seems to be a bit short on top-card faces though, as Kenny doesn't feel like a big deal right now - and Cody/MJF, while entertaining, doesn't really feel as big as I feel it should.

[cappyboy]

Mox isn't meant to be a traditional heel. He's an anti-hero. I guess you could compare him to Punk in that regard - he kind of acts like a heel but is meant to be supported.

 

 

Actually, the comparison that comes to my mind is that Moxley feels like a more organic Stone Cold. With Austin, I may believe in him now and may be able to make connections to pre-WWE events that would have informed Stone Cold's mindset back then. But that the time, he felt so over the top and so rebellious for rebellion's sake, I wasn't inclined to make the effort. Stone Cold didn't feel real to me. He felt like some guy playing a character trying too hard to make me believe.

 

With Moxley, I've never had that. But then, unlike Austin, Moxley's behavior has never felt out of the blue for me. AEW may be the first time I'm seeing him in the moment but it's not the first time I've seen him with this kind of persona. Friends who were much more into the indy scene used to link me to his promos on YouTube and gush about him back in the pre-Ambrose days. So he feels real and consistent because I can harken back to those unstable homeless guy bits and see how they connect to today. Moxley being the character he is makes sense. Austin in his prime never did.

[Questlove]

Tonight's Dynamite was for sure the best episode of any wrestling TV show I've seen in... I don't even know how long. I haven't been that enthralled by wrestling since I was a kid.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

<p>Yesterday’s show, to quote Jimmy King, ruled ass. Tag battle royal to start the show highlights the depth of the tag division. Was that CIMA I saw? Luchasaurus is way over and he can really work, at least in the multi-man matches. That super kick Guevara took was insane. Called Omega-Page vs. Bucks, that’ll be worth $15 of the PPV cost at least.</p><p> </p><p>

Women’s division is rounding in to shape, at least not dragging the show down anymore. Nyla Rose cut a pretty good heel promo dancing around the reasons for her power advantage in a way that tweaks people against that. Britt Baker is getting better material and having JR and Schiavone to support almost makes up for her delivery, which is pretty hit and miss. Statlander and Swole could have some physical matches with Nyla.</p><p> </p><p>

I’m expecting the Mox-Jericho feud to get the most gas on the go home show next week, it feels like there’s been less Jericho on the last couple shows and that shouldn’t happen.</p><p> </p><p>

Tag title match f’in ruled, it looked like people in the arena bought the false finish after the Pentagon Driver as hard as I did. Page does the firey eyed ass whipper gimmick about as well as anyone I’ve seen since Stone Cold himself and Omega is just ridiculously good in the ring. Lucha Bros would be my pick for the next champs when the inevitable meltdown occurs with Omega/Page.</p><p> </p><p>

Cody/MJF has definitely continued to be a great feud, the whipping segment showed again what a great heel MJF is and I loved him trying to convince Arn to slam the cage on Cody. And Cody got to show what a nut he is by blading and doing a 15 foot no look moonsault, but the crowd was into it.</p>

[milamber]

<p>Dark:</p><p> </p><p>

- Diamante vs Statlander was solid. Kris stole Jamie's wet willy move. That's a good excuse to book a match between them.</p><p>

- Hybrid 2 vs Best Friends was good. Attacking OC equals instant heat.</p><p>

- Jaynes vs Swole was solid. Jaynes is worth signing permanently.</p><p>

- QT & Avalon vs Young Bucks was fun.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

Dynamite:</p><p> </p><p>

- Tag Team Battle Royale was good. Despite the ring being packed they pulled off some fun spots and storyline angles. Butcher got a big rub. Everyone's attakcing OC for the heat now LOL. I thought PnP would win.</p><p>

- Shanna vs Statlander was good. Enjoyed Nyla's promo. Kris would make a strong first defense for Nyla but I guess they could throw Swole in there to take the pin. Shida should be the endgame for Nyla's title run.</p><p>

- Mox vs Cobb was good. Based on the post-match angle and the Battle Royale we should get Darby vs Sammy and & PnP vs Jurassic Express at Revolution.</p><p>

- Lucha Bros vs Page & Omega © was PPV quality and would have main evented any other show. So many crazy sequences and near-falls.</p><p>

- Wardlow vs Cody was good (because of the spectacle more than the actual wrestling) although it was a bit short. Not a fan of the small chain link style but they made the cage look brutal enough. Smart use of MJF, Arn and Brandi. I thought we might get the moonsault but it still caught me by surprise and it was amazing.</p><p> </p><p>

Cody's unaired post-match promo to the crowd:

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[cappyboy]

while not a stacked as the mens roster their women are good wrestlers, just need to be established a bit more, and Britt (with the exception of the first promo, has been doing great heel work.)

 

I can agree to a point but that's about it. While it does feel like some of the criticism of the women's division is over the top, it does seem odd that the nation's #2 women's division is so very young. If AEW were at the level of pre-Reverie USPW to use the C-Verse or original recipe ECW in its prime then okay. They'd be at the double maybe triple A level but still be seasoning before hitting the bigs. Being on as primary a cable channel as TNT makes AEW feel like they are "the bigs" despite being quite a young company. So I can see the argument that Japanese members aside, AEW may not necessarily have the best of the best where the women are concerned. Still there are far worse divisions out there.

 

OVW springs immediately to mind. But then someplace like OVW isn't necessarily meant to be a panacea of wrestling. It's Baby's First Promotion in many cases so less of a talent level is expected and more inexperience can be forgiven. Where AEW management is Elite and there are expectations that come with that. Do I find the descriptions of how subpar some of the AEW are excessive? Indeed. The overinflation of Britt Baker's flaws in paticular feel ssilly. To hear some tell it, you'd think Baker was Cali Young during her first OVW's Women's title reign or Valerie Vermin awful. Britt may have room for improvement but she'd still wrestle rings around such women. I will agree that a talent of Britt's caliber probably shouldn't be the face of the division. But given she was the first non-family member to join the division, I also see why she is and look forward to someone else attaining the stature to take that status from her.

[Blake Trask]

I really think they should stay far, far away from any kind of suggestions that Nyla's dominant because she's trans.

 

It enables the bigots who want to call her a man and gives them ammunition. There's no good way to bring it up when she's a heel, because any heat she generates for it is going to cleave way too close to transphobia.

 

The reaction to her winning has been gross. Fuel to that fire is not needed.

[milamber]

I can agree to a point but that's about it. While it does feel like some of the criticism of the women's division is over the top, it does seem odd that the nation's #2 women's division is so very young. If AEW were at the level of pre-Reverie USPW to use the C-Verse or original recipe ECW in its prime then okay. They'd be at the double maybe triple A level but still be seasoning before hitting the bigs. Being on as primary a cable channel as TNT makes AEW feel like they are "the bigs" despite being quite a young company. So I can see the argument that Japanese members aside, AEW may not necessarily have the best of the best where the women are concerned. Still there are far worse divisions out there.

 

OVW springs immediately to mind. But then someplace like OVW isn't necessarily meant to be a panacea of wrestling. It's Baby's First Promotion in many cases so less of a talent level is expected and more inexperience can be forgiven. Where AEW management is Elite and there are expectations that come with that. Do I find the descriptions of how subpar some of the AEW are excessive? Indeed. The overinflation of Britt Baker's flaws in paticular feel ssilly. To hear some tell it, you'd think Baker was Cali Young during her first OVW's Women's title reign or Valerie Vermin awful. Britt may have room for improvement but she'd still wrestle rings around such women. I will agree that a talent of Britt's caliber probably shouldn't be the face of the division. But given she was the first non-family member to join the division, I also see why she is and look forward to someone else attaining the stature to take that status from her.

 

The problem is WWE alone has 4 women's rosters, IMPACT has one that's established, as does EVE in the UK. Japan has dozens of companies stock full of quality talent.

 

Kenny was always going to bring in Joshi talent but it turned into a necessity. I think if you look at the recent Dark matches with Diamante, Cassandra Golden and Christi Jaynes you can see AEW are putting in the scouting effort to round out the division. I don't think we'll see any major talent signings for some time unless someone with a big reputation from one of the aforementioned companies becomes available.

[Peppermint Rage]

Women’s division is rounding in to shape, at least not dragging the show down anymore. Nyla Rose cut a pretty good heel promo dancing around the reasons for her power advantage in a way that tweaks people against that. Britt Baker is getting better material and having JR and Schiavone to support almost makes up for her delivery, which is pretty hit and miss. Statlander and Swole could have some physical matches with Nyla.

 

Nyla isn't "dancing around" anything, and while she is big, she's not even the biggest woman we've seen in AEW being out sized by both Kongs.

[Self]

Watched Dynamite. It was a fun show.

 

I kinda hated the Tag Team Battle Royal. I guess maybe I hate all Battle Royals nowadays, with at least 4 guys waiting outside "for heat" and another 6 going outside but not being eliminated, or it even being an important spot of the match. It's people trying to be 'clever' but it's comes off as phony and lame to me. If the rules are so easy to exploit, change the rules. Cody fixed the cage match. Fix this.

 

Maybe tonight caught me in a bad mood. I thought the first half of the tag title match was scrappy and had no flow. Cobb/Moxley was technically solid but a bit dull. Ditto cage match. I had fun, but there was nothing I can point to (Darby's run in?) that I thought was excellent.

 

I really think they should stay far, far away from any kind of suggestions that Nyla's dominant because she's trans.

 

It enables the bigots who want to call her a man and gives them ammunition. There's no good way to bring it up when she's a heel, because any heat she generates for it is going to cleave way too close to transphobia.

 

I wish there was a way to do it because I do think it could be an interesting story. The only way it even slightly works in my mind is if Nyla's the babyface. Heels cry unfair advantage. Other babyfaces have no problem fighting her. Heel bigots get comeuppance. You reflect the real life controversy, but it's scripted to tell the story you want. I'm 95% sure people would freak out on both sides (and I'm guessing at best as to what would be the responsible way to handle it) but actors have won Oscars for stories like that.

[cappyboy]

 

 

I wish there was a way to do it because I do think it could be an interesting story. The only way it even slightly works in my mind is if Nyla's the babyface. Heels cry unfair advantage. Other babyfaces have no problem fighting her. Heel bigots get comeuppance. You reflect the real life controversy, but it's scripted to tell the story you want. I'm 95% sure people would freak out on both sides (and I'm guessing at best as to what would be the responsible way to handle it) but actors have won Oscars for stories like that.

 

Dear God no. It's painful enough when you get stuck watching a message movie the studio cooked up as an award chasing gimmick. The last thing I'd want to see on my wrestling show is an award bait storyline where there's no award to justify such topicality.

[Self]

<p>The wife is hooked on AEW, so we're all wired into to that fite.tv thing now. Ordered the PPV. Watched Dynamite earlier than the usual Saturday morning UK showing. PAC was robbed. Omega would have been counted out if Matt Jackson hadn't pushed him back into the ring. And he only escaped the brutalizer because of the time limit. </p><p> </p><p> Rest of the show was... fine, I guess, but I was definitely invested in the iron man match.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46243" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Dear God no. It's painful enough when you get stuck watching a message movie the studio cooked up as an award chasing gimmick. The last thing I'd want to see on my wrestling show is an award bait storyline where there's no award to justify such topicality.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The award would be more people talking about a fledgling promotion. News sites. Media outside the wrestling bubble. Although I'm totally with you that if done even slightly poorly it could be annoying and preachy.</p>

[milamber]

<p>Dark:</p><p> </p><p>

- Havoc vs Stunt was solid.</p><p>

- Dark Order vs Strong Hearts was good.</p><p>

- Janela vs Sabian (Falls Count Anywhere) was good.</p><p>

- Spears & Avalon vs Dustin & QT was solid.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

Dynamite:</p><p> </p><p>

- PAC vs Omega was a 5 star TV match. I would have been happy with the draw but PAC got what he deserved for attacking the ref. OC got beaten up for heat again LOL.</p><p>

- Painmaker Posse LOL. Sammy & PnP vs Jurassic Express was solid with a strong closing stretch. Darby!</p><p>

- Best Friends vs Butcher & Blade was solid. Bonus OC/Bunny action. PAC vs OC!</p><p>

- Yuka vs Swole vs Shanna vs Shida was solid but a bit sloppy. I expected Swole to win. Yuka is awesome.</p><p>

- The sit-down interview was great.</p><p>

- I love how they went full sports presentation for the Weigh In before turning it into a typical AEW show-ending brawl.</p>

[Jaysin]

That iron man match was phenomenal.

 

Also, I will say AEW's women division seems to finally be clicking. Statlander vs Shanna last week was solid and the fatal fourway this week was pretty ok despite being a bit sloppy. Swole kinda bugs me and her music rips off Moose. Still, she's not a bad worker by any means, but she hasn't really clicked for me yet.

 

The weigh in was fun. Especially bringing out Gary Michael Capetta out of nowhere.

[Jaysin]

PAC vs Orange Cassidy was flat out entertaining as hell

[milamber]

Dark Order vs SCU - Solid match. Colt Cabana! Playing entrance music for run-ins is stupid.

Hager vs Dustin - Solid match. Wasn't a fan of Dustin assaulting Hager's wife.

Darby vs Sammy - Good match. These guys went hard before the bell even rung.

Young Bucks vs Omega & Page © - MOTY so far. Incredible storytelling and loved the Bucks acting more heelish. Only negative was too many poorly-timed crowd reaction shots.

Kris Statlander vs Nyla Rose © - Good match. They had to work hard to get the crowd amped up again.

MJF vs Cody - Good old-school match with smart use of call-backs.

PAC vs Cassidy - Great match. OC is inredibly over and one hell of a wrestler. The half-assed introduction and titantron were a nice touch, as well as Excalibur's Fire Ant reference.

Moxley vs Jericho © - Great match. They laid it out like a greatest hits of their New Japan matches. Happy they pulled the trigger on Mox after an epic build.

 

Great PPV. Loved the stage setup, lighting and pyro. Disappointed there was only 1 women's match.

[Self]

Fun show. Definitely worth my money. The tag match was definitely my favourite match I've seen in a long time. The first half was odd, as it seemed like the crowd weren't going in the direction they had planned for, but by the end, nope, they definitely knew what they were doing. Page is definitely my favourite guy, and they would be idiots to turn him heel.

 

PAC/Cassidy was a blast. Shame about the finish shenanigans, but I wouldn't have wanted either to lose clean.

 

I didn't like how many babyfaces cheated tonight. Brandi getting involved. Dustin's sexual assault. Cody blatantly using a weapon in front of the referee.

 

Women were in a bad spot with an impossible act to follow, but they also tried waaaay too complex spots early, with far too much movement, and their strikes looked like garbage. No selling. All fake. I also thought Jericho & Moxley's brawling was kinda crappy. Those were the two matches I didn't enjoy.

[Jaysin]

I have two complaints about the tag match.

 

Way too many “near falls” and kicking out of finishers.

 

Also, AEW has a major issue in tag matches where the illegal man is in the ring waaayyyyy too long. To make matters worse the refs just let it happen. It’s idiotic and makes the refs look like fools while the announcers try covering up the wrestlers breaking the rules.