Public Beta Reaction Thread

[tormyb]

someone can "set Comedy to medium."

 

Coincidentally, I was working over some questions in my mind that I was going to ask about how certain products in TEW 20 relate to those in TEW 16. Stuff like how 16's "Rated much more on performance/popularity" related to 20's matches being rated 60:40 on popularity vs performance, etc..

 

Doctor Crunch's comment made me realise that, the fact that I was even thinking about that question, should be taken as a big compliment for the new system. I was planning to ask for something that was vague in 16 to be translated into 20's more specific/precise system. Which I think is a big plus.

 

I was someone who didn't take to TEW 20 immediately. I generally scew on the side of liking games to be easy, and I was worried by a lot of the new specific penalties and "limitations" that I saw in 20. However, I'm increasingly realising that much of what I was worried about was actually in 16, I just didn't see it behind some of the vaguer aspects of the game.

 

I'm in no way a programmer or know how the true baseline of TEW works from a mechanical standpoint. But I don't even know if programming a game to learn to grow around you brute forcing something into existence is even possible. I totally get where your mindset is & thinking how in real life, this kind of thing can happen. I just don't know from a programming side how that could work.

 

Maybe it can, I just don't know how that would look.

 

I'm also not a programmer here.

 

Couldn't company crowd attributes work the same way as popularity? Have a deathmatch, and the crowd's danger/risk stat goes up. Don't have one for long enough and it starts to go down. Might need some stuff to be preset, as I don't think doing a hundred lucha de apuestas in a row should then result in a special effect, but maybe doing them with hot storylines or legendary masks could? It would be hard to balance, but sounds plausible to a layman.

 

Love the idea, although I'm going insane in lockdown, so I don't know if I can trust what I think.

[Doctor Crunch]

I understand your concern, but your concern is already in the game. Honestly no one wants to take away any part of the game, and in that particular area, they just want to be able to tweak products like they were able to before, not take away what is already there. Understand that you have what you want already, I've never seen presets taken out during or after beta.

 

I have seen multiple people demand that the new product system be removed entirely and reverted to 2016 system. This would be a huge mistake. The new product is vastly superior to 2016s and a clear high point of the game.

 

I also have trouble taking criticism of a system with this many options seriously when it's clear no one has had time to actually test more than a fraction of the options.

 

And that's more or less what to say about the game. Right now TEW2020 is a much better game than TEW2016. It can (and I hope will) get better, but I really hope none of the feedback focused on undoing the improved systems in TEW2020 gets implemented.

 

Once you actually stop trying to play and navigate TEW2020 as a TEW2016 mod it really starts to shine in a way I didn't think was possible before release.

[The Nickman]

The dedicated thread on it was deleted, I assume because the issue was resolved, but here's an important fix from today's patch that caused confusion and issues for a lot of people:

 

"The momentum system was not being initialised properly, meaning everyone was effectively starting from neutral"

Yeah, I’ve noticed that in the notes too! Has anyone got an explanation for this? I didn’t see the thread where it was discussed, but this intrigues me heavily.

[ChrisPMWBenoit]

Re: Dynamic Product Styles

 

True, it may be hard to implement and maybe nigh on impossible. However, I’d love it as a feature. For instance, Vince Russo didn’t just swap to a preset attitude entertainment product, no - he booked what he felt worked and the product evolved into it organically.

 

I’m guessing it’d be far too complicated to implement into TEW2020 but I’d love for it to be in the next instalment.

[Bull]

Yeah, I’ve noticed that in the notes too! Has anyone got an explanation for this? I didn’t see the thread where it was discussed, but this intrigues me heavily.

 

 

Adam's explination

 

As I've had some PMs about it, here's a clarification about momentum:

 

- Prior to patch #7 there was an issue when you started a new game that the hidden "short term" momentum started at zero. This meant that the "long term" momentum, the one you can see, would trend towards neutral. This would, for example, mean that if you had someone who started with high momentum they would lose momentum even if you were strongly booking them, at least until the short term rose enough to meet the long term.

 

- Patch #7 stops this error from happening. It would only apply to games started with patch #7 applied though, due to the issue being during the new game startup part.

 

Some people have asked if I can do a fix for existing save games. I will supply a remote assistance code in tomorrow's beta that will set your short term momentum to equal your long-term momentum - this will effectively solve the issue even in existing games. You may therefore want to pause your save game if you're particularly invested in it and want to wait for this code.

[BrokenCycle]

So I guess that be the reason why guys like Scythe, who have the highest momentum, drop a lot after the first show?

[djthefunkchris]

I have seen multiple people demand that the new product system be removed entirely and reverted to 2016 system. This would be a huge mistake. The new product is vastly superior to 2016s and a clear high point of the game.

 

I also have trouble taking criticism of a system with this many options seriously when it's clear no one has had time to actually test more than a fraction of the options.

 

And that's more or less what to say about the game. Right now TEW2020 is a much better game than TEW2016. It can (and I hope will) get better, but I really hope none of the feedback focused on undoing the improved systems in TEW2020 gets implemented.

 

Once you actually stop trying to play and navigate TEW2020 as a TEW2016 mod it really starts to shine in a way I didn't think was possible before release.

 

My problem with posts like this is your taking your opinion and making it a factual statement. Don't get me wrong, I love the enthusiasm you have for the new features, and I and everyone else actually share in them. You don't seem to understand that the way your posting though. TEW16 had presets as well, no one wants to get rid of them.

 

Here is an example of what I feel is happening here: Let's say we are making rules for a card game... Let's say we made the card game rummy. We are able to make runs, we are able to have three of a kind, but all the cards only count as one. We make a new iteration of the game, and now the cards are face value, and the Jacks, Queens, Kings are worth 10, and the Ace is worth 15. All vast improvements over the last iteration, but one thing is missing... We can't use three of a kind anymore. Instead we now can use the ace as a one as well as over the king, and we can even go King, Ace, Two.. But three of a kind was taken out. Everyone is like "Hey, wait a minute! Bring back the old way where we could use three of a king!!" You're taking it as "Hey, we don't like it at all, lets go back to doing it exactly as we did last time". How is it a new game then? Why would anyone mean it like that?

 

I don't want to upset you or anything like that, and I could have missed what your talking about in the thread, as my work schedule through this is all messed up, and I absolutely have to work right now. I will admit that some of my reading has been while half awake, and I hate to admit some of my posts have been as well. I'm really hyped for this game, and I've been looking forward to it, even telling my wife all up to the point of the beta, getting her excited for me.... and then I'm not as happy as I was hoping to be with it. It's not a dig, it's the first time to be honest with this particular game, so it's truly overdue...but it's a fact.

 

I have never seen Adam take away a preset that is in the beta. I don't think you have anything to worry about. What is going on is something was taken out from the last game that people want back in.... I'm actually with you in being fine with it how it is right now. I don't want to lose anything... But there really is only something to gain here. I always try to be supportive when others want something in the game, and I hate when people are like "No..> We don't need that in the game" when it doesn't affect them, they don't ever have to use it.

[spiffyone]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Doctor Crunch" data-cite="Doctor Crunch" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The problem being that some of the things being cited as "big problems" by the people throwing around insults like the Product system are some of the things that actually work best in 2020. <p> </p><p> It was offputting at first, but 2020's product system actually makes booking for different companies feel really different. 2016 never escaped a certain drear sameyness. In 2020 21CW and SWF feel wildly different in a way that means they need to be learned and studied. </p><p> </p><p> So if we allow only negative feedback what are the chances that we lose that feature so that someone can "set Comedy to medium." Especially when we know that no one has had time to explore all the products yet.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> 1. Who are these posters who when levying complaints about the lack of user controlled product creation or modification did so in an insulting manner?</p><p> </p><p> 2. I'm not the only one who noticed this, but your argument is a strawman. No one who has thus far advocated for the re-implementation of user controlled product creation or modification (whether in-game, in the database editor outside of gameplay, or both) has EVER advocated the removal of the already set products. No one would, because already set products has been a thing that has existed in the series prior to 2020. </p><p> </p><p> On the "we haven't explored all the products yet": there are some of us doing just that, and our complaints remain, because we don't have to try out all the set products in order to voice an opinion regarding the lack of user controlled creation or modification of products that has existed in previous iterations of the series.</p>

[nerodragomir1]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My problem with posts like this is your taking your opinion and making it a factual statement. Don't get me wrong, I love the enthusiasm you have for the new features, and I and everyone else actually share in them. You don't seem to understand that the way your posting though. TEW16 had presets as well, no one wants to get rid of them.<p> </p><p> Here is an example of what I feel is happening here: Let's say we are making rules for a card game... Let's say we made the card game rummy. We are able to make runs, we are able to have three of a kind, but all the cards only count as one. We make a new iteration of the game, and now the cards are face value, and the Jacks, Queens, Kings are worth 10, and the Ace is worth 15. All vast improvements over the last iteration, but one thing is missing... We can't use three of a kind anymore. Instead we now can use the ace as a one as well as over the king, and we can even go King, Ace, Two.. But three of a kind was taken out. Everyone is like "Hey, wait a minute! Bring back the old way where we could use three of a king!!" You're taking it as "Hey, we don't like it at all, lets go back to doing it exactly as we did last time". How is it a new game then? Why would anyone mean it like that?</p><p> </p><p> I don't want to upset you or anything like that, and I could have missed what your talking about in the thread, as my work schedule through this is all messed up, and I absolutely have to work right now. I will admit that some of my reading has been while half awake, and I hate to admit some of my posts have been as well. I'm really hyped for this game, and I've been looking forward to it, even telling my wife all up to the point of the beta, getting her excited for me.... and then I'm not as happy as I was hoping to be with it. It's not a dig, it's the first time to be honest with this particular game, so it's truly overdue...but it's a fact.</p><p> </p><p> I have never seen Adam take away a preset that is in the beta. I don't think you have anything to worry about. What is going on is something was taken out from the last game that people want back in.... I'm actually with you in being fine with it how it is right now. I don't want to lose anything... But there really is only something to gain here. I always try to be supportive when others want something in the game, and I hate when people are like "No..> We don't need that in the game" when it doesn't affect them, they don't ever have to use it.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I get where you're coming from on that & I agree (except for the card example, I only know how to play go fish.)</p><p> Seriously though, I don't want anything with products removed. I've said a page or two ago about how I think the game should have had both. I personally like the new presets alot because I have basically zero interest in messing with the product on my own. I want some really well balanced products given to me. I don't use crazy products anyways.</p><p> </p><p> I will argue about wanting one thing back from 2016. I want my old (move segment up) & (Move segment down) buttons back! I don't care if you set the "new" buttons on fire & throw them into a the whiteboard void! Those old buttons were so simple & great!</p>

[awesomenessofme1]

I <em>just</em> realized that the "Skinny Genes" attribute is a pun. Ryland with the (possibly unintentional?) dad jokes.

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="nerodragomir1" data-cite="nerodragomir1" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I get where you're coming from on that & I agree (except for the card example, I only know how to play go fish.)<p> Seriously though, I don't want anything with products removed. I've said a page or two ago about how I think the game should have had both. I personally like the new presets alot because I have basically zero interest in messing with the product on my own. I want some really well balanced products given to me. I don't use crazy products anyways.</p><p> </p><p> I will argue about wanting one thing back from 2016. I want my old (move segment up) & (Move segment down) buttons back! I don't care if you set the "new" buttons on fire & throw them into a the whiteboard void! Those old buttons were so simple & great!</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> For some reason I really like your name....It's like Matrix/DnD/RNA Gene all in one, lol.</p>

[spiffyone]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="nerodragomir1" data-cite="nerodragomir1" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Seriously though, I don't want anything with products removed. </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> No one does! No one ever did! Because preset products have been there for ages alongside user controlled creation or modification of products.</p><p> </p><p> That's what's so odd about that poster's statement. No one has advocated removing of a feature, only the re-implementation of a feature that has been removed.</p>

[nerodragomir1]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>For some reason I really like your name....It's like Matrix/DnD/RNA Gene all in one, lol.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Thank you! The "Nero" part was from DMC & The "Dragomir" was back when I was trying to come up with a wrestling name. I saw a poker player back in like 2009 who was playing & it was his last name. I thought it sounded SICK, so I stole it. Never got to use the name though.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="spiffyone" data-cite="spiffyone" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>No one does! No one ever did! Because preset products have been there for ages alongside user controlled creation or modification of products.<p> </p><p> That's what's so odd about that poster's statement. No one has advocated removing of a feature, only the re-implementation of a feature that has been removed.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah, really the only new feature I've been asking to remove is the whiteboard in the editor. Purely because its hurts my eyes when looking at the screen in a dim room for long stretches of time. Everything else I've spoken about is stiff missing from 2016.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah, really the only new feature I've been asking to remove is the whiteboard in the editor. Purely because its hurts my eyes when looking at the screen in a dim room for long stretches of time. Everything else I've spoken about is stiff missing from 2016.

 

Do you have an option to dim your screen? I always do when I have lights off/it's darker in the room... should be going to sleep and instead am reading posts on GDS, lol.

[Doctor Crunch]

No one does! No one ever did! Because preset products have been there for ages alongside user controlled creation or modification of products.

 

That's what's so odd about that poster's statement. No one has advocated removing of a feature, only the re-implementation of a feature that has been removed.

 

The product system in 2020 is a substantial revamp from 2016. It is not simply presets using 2016's procedural generation like 2016 had.

[TOTKingNothing]

The product system in 2020 is a substantial revamp from 2016. It is not simply presets using 2016's procedural generation like 2016 had.

 

Yeah, but it doesn't mean we can't still have both the new products and the ability to construct our own.

[spiffyone]

The product system in 2020 is a substantial revamp from 2016. It is not simply presets using 2016's procedural generation like 2016 had.

 

You're missing the point here to argue minutia that in and of itself is kinda wrong to begin with.

 

The product system is different. They are still preset products, though (that is, they are not user defined or controlled in any way).

 

Moreover, you're still missing the point that re-implementing the user controlled product creation or modification would not necessitate removing the products already in the game nor how they work. At all. Once again, what you stated was a strawman. No one argued for the removal of a feature regarding the products, only the re-implementation of a feature that was in previous games. And you've added another strawman in the post to which I'm responding: I never argued it was "presets using 2016's procedural generation like 2016 had". It uses a different system...still preset though.

[Bonafide_Bluffa]

You're missing the point here to argue minutia that in and of itself is kinda wrong to begin with.

 

The product system is different. They are still preset products, though (that is, they are not user defined or controlled in any way).

 

Moreover, you're still missing the point that re-implementing the user controlled product creation or modification would not necessitate removing the products already in the game nor how they work. At all. Once again, what you stated was a strawman. No one argued for the removal of a feature regarding the products, only the re-implementation of a feature that was in previous games. And you've added another strawman in the post to which I'm responding: I never argued it was "presets using 2016's procedural generation like 2016 had". It uses a different system...still preset though.

 

you're missing the point of doctor crunch's message. implementing the 2016 ability to make your own products would likely mean adam would have to revamp the entire product system. it is likely not as simple as "adding" the ability to create your own products. i'm not sure if i'm explaining this correctly, but as a developer if i had to revamp a mechanic like that it'd be nightmare.

[Doctor Crunch]

You're missing the point here to argue minutia that in and of itself is kinda wrong to begin with.

 

The product system is different. They are still preset products, though (that is, they are not user defined or controlled in any way).

 

Moreover, you're still missing the point that re-implementing the user controlled product creation or modification would not necessitate removing the products already in the game nor how they work. At all. Once again, what you stated was a strawman. No one argued for the removal of a feature regarding the products, only the re-implementation of a feature that was in previous games. And you've added another strawman in the post to which I'm responding: I never argued it was "presets using 2016's procedural generation like 2016 had". It uses a different system...still preset though.

 

As I understand it implementing user creation without changing TEW2020's product system would require completely reworking and implementing a brand new procedural generation system that doesn't currently exist. If that can be done, great.

 

What I'm worried about is the idea that we might simply go back to TEW2016's system. That would be a substantial loss. I read that in to the comments like "Because preset products have been there for ages,' because comparing 2016s preset procedural products to 2020s crafted products is really apples to oranges.

[spiffyone]

you're missing the point of doctor crunch's message. implementing the 2016 ability to make your own products would likely mean adam would have to revamp the entire product system. it is likely not as simple as "adding" the ability to create your own products. i'm not sure if i'm explaining this correctly, but as a developer if i had to revamp a mechanic like that it'd be nightmare.

 

Why would the mechanic likely need to be revamped? The products already in the game were added somehow. The products being added now per the "product suggestions" topic are being added somehow (if they're "okayed"). Make whatever tool Adam is using to put those in available to the end user or make a menu tool available to do that if none has been made yet.

[spiffyone]

As I understand it implementing user creation without changing TEW2020's product system would require completely reworking and implementing a brand new procedural generation system that doesn't currently exist. If that can be done, great.

 

Why would it? Again, he's putting them in somehow. However he's doing it, make that available to the end user in some fashion. And, mind you, if that wasn't thought through prior to the implementation of the new system, then it should've been.

 

 

What I'm worried about is the idea that we might simply go back to TEW2016's system. That would be a substantial loss. I read that in to the comments like "Because preset products have been there for ages,' because comparing 2016s preset procedural products to 2020s crafted products is really apples to oranges.

 

So an issue of differing definitions for same terminology then. I used "preset" simply means "already built in" as per the common definition of the term. Perhaps in coding it can be defined differently. But then again I made no mention of procedural products or anything thereof. Simply "preset".

[Bonafide_Bluffa]

Why would the mechanic likely need to be revamped? The products already in the game were added somehow. The products being added now per the "product suggestions" topic are being added somehow (if they're "okayed"). Make whatever tool Adam is using to put those in available to the end user or make a menu tool available to do that if none has been made yet.

 

because its probably not as simple as just having the key feature/heavy/medium/low etc stuff like it was in 2016. been playing adam's games for 10 years, and one thing i've learned is he goes out of his way to fix and change things to meet his playerbase's standards as much as he can. if he is unable to add custom products, it is likely due to something within the infrastructure of the game itself.

[landxx]

Why autobooker is so strange with hardcore matches booking a match with only hardcore aim and not a match type of hardcore its need fixing...

[bengreedy]

I'm happy custom products are gone. I just abused them anyways to get higher ratings or used them as an excuse to not have to have certain workers on my roster (women, eye candy specifically.) Practically any product is already represented and more to be added through patches. At this point crying about the lack of custom products is pointless.

[spiffyone]

because its probably not as simple as just having the key feature/heavy/medium/low etc stuff like it was in 2016. been playing adam's games for 10 years, and one thing i've learned is he goes out of his way to fix and change things to meet his playerbase's standards as much as he can. if he is unable to add custom products, it is likely due to something within the infrastructure of the game itself.

 

Again, I hate to say "strawman" again, but I never stated that it would be as "simple as just having key feature/heavy/medium/low etc. stuff like it was in 2016". We all know it would not be the same as in 2016 due to the changes in the product system. So please...stop doing that. It's been rampant ITT. And it serves no purpose. If we're going to discuss things, strawmen have to be the no-go zone.

 

As for the topic of our discussion: he's adding custom products, though - the ones that he's adding in. So however it's being done, create tools that allows the end user to do that. It's not going to be as "simple" as 2016 for him or for the end user, no, but I doubt that the latter will complain much.