Custom Products

[Bull]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TOTKingNothing" data-cite="TOTKingNothing" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47887" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Right, but the argument being made is that it SHOULDN'T in products where it should be appropriate, and according to Adam's builds of these preset products, in many cases people disagree with how he has build the products, and we don't have a way of adjusting them ourselves.<p> </p><p> Sex appeal didn't detract from a segment in the attitude era at all.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I understand, and this is just my opinion, but you shouldn't get nor expect an A+/100 rated angle or match with sex appeal being your drawing force, or what ever grade it would be scaled to your size, even if it's a staple of your product. Hence why I view it as not so much a penalty but a deliberate limitation of the product. Yes people want to see it because it's an expectation but it's not something to build the company on. Detract my have been the wrong word to use, distract may have been better. The point I was trying to make is that it there as more of a distraction. In the attitude era many of those ladies couldn't wrestle to save their lives, so sex appeal was their main selling point, and I would certainly argue that it took away from the ladies with actual in ring talent, but it also did help distract from the ladies without it. Base strictly on quality, the sex appeal based stuff from the attitude era wouldn't qualify as 5 star Television in my book, but that's just my view. . and the main point I'm debating here.. </p><p> </p><p> As far as products go I can go either way honestly. . I typically didn't bother with the super minor tweaking of products in the older games, but I can see the argument for at least wanting the ability to do so.</p>

[alex6291]

We are talking about a game which allows us in User Preference to disable the gimmicks, momentum, workers morale, their complaints, overusing a guy, booking times, match ratio... Allow players to design their own products isn't an exploit compared to what I just mentioned. It's not gonna change the gameplay, just add a layer of customization for those who want. It's mostly a solo game.

 

In previous TEW, I always change the product of NJPW or AJPW, because of the finishes limitation, only clean finish is a cliché about puroresu, it has never been the case (apart of shootstyle wrestling).

 

And during Attitude Era, an angle based with sex appeal would bring people in front of their TV, so a high rating. However, maybe not that much for a match.

[absolutelyridiculous]

I like this as a way to describe how sex appeal matches should work in the game (I have no idea how they actually work, I've never used them in TEW20, barely used them before)

 

it took away from the ladies with actual in ring talent, but it also did help distract from the ladies without it

 

but I think a road agent note to tell you that putting Girl Okada and Girl Omega in a Sexy Lady Match distracted from the action would be fine.

 

Putting "eye candy matches will get mildly penalized" and "each show will need at least one match aimed as eye candy" in the Attitude Entertainment product just seems like a bug though. Which isn't a big deal especially at this point, there's 50 of those products and it's easy to miss something like that.

 

I like my idea as a way to work with the penalties. I think if you do 100 pay per view matches a year, you should be able to have 2 or 3 of them that are a little bit outside of your product without getting dinged. And it would probably make people think strategically too, even if the gameplay margins (the penalties themselves, the benefit of having a hardcore match or an eye candy match or whatever) are extremely small.

[Blake Trask]

It's probably set as a comparison. Other products have 'severely penalised' so it's letting you know that the eye candy will not reach the heights of a normal match.

 

There's not really another way of putting it without saying that 'eye candy matches will have their rating capped' and that's ultimately stating the same thing.

[Lex Star]

One of my gripes is all the puro products seem to only allow for clean finishes. Tell that to NJPW and the Bullet Club.

[Bull]

We are talking about a game which allows us in User Preference to disable the gimmicks, momentum, workers morale, their complaints, overusing a guy, booking times, match ratio... Allow players to design their own products isn't an exploit compared to what I just mentioned. It's not gonna change the gameplay, just add a layer of customization for those who want. It's mostly a solo game.

 

In previous TEW, I always change the product of NJPW or AJPW, because of the finishes limitation, only clean finish is a cliché about puroresu, it has never been the case (apart of shootstyle wrestling).

 

And during Attitude Era, an angle based with sex appeal would bring people in front of their TV, so a high rating. However, maybe not that much for a match.

 

High rating television wise sure but there's plenty of less than stellar television that gets lots of viewership. .

 

I just think because it's listed as a penalty and not simply a limitation people want a way to avoid it because they want to see higher numbers on their segment ratings. . it's an aspect of your product that you are expected to provide but not what the people paid to see hence the "penalty" and I feel like trying to use it as something beyond filler is exactly why its limited in that way. Under most normal circumstances your not gonna build a wrestling company to a global force by overly relying on your workers sex appeal. . You have to use actual talented workers to do that. That's all I'm sayin lol..

 

 

As for the main argument here again if people want to design their own products I say let them go for it, I'm not against it. let people play how they want to play. I just think people shouldn't feel so obsessed with getting the best grade possible, that they don't want to use something just because it has a "penalty" attached to it.

[Kingster]

This could of course be a bug, but I can also see that being intentional.

Here's my logic: An eye-candy match will always be penalised because people come to the shows to see wrestling. And in workrate-heavy promotions the audience would absolutely hate these kinds of matches. But in an attitude era style company, the penalty is not that big, but there's still a penalty because people want to see actual wrestling. Even in the attitude era, people wouldn't be taking eye-candy matches seriously. Yes, they would tolerate them, but tolerating doesn't mean people were 100 % into them.

[SirMichaelJordan]

This isn't a MMORPG or an online competition-focused game where "exploits" should be penalized. If I want to save-scum in a single-player game in order to get all the achievements because that makes me happy then a game developer (who wants my money after all) shouldn't be actively designing a game where I can't do that. And in fact most don't. Football Manager for example, doesn't make save-scumming impossible. They have auto-save and non auto-save options. There's no "the game automatically saves after matches so you can't save-scum" feature that you can't turn off.

 

Of course if they don't want my money then I'll just take my business elsewhere. But from a capitalist POV that's a poor business decision.

 

The developer shouldn't be the "fun police" dictating how I can use the options presented by their product to enjoy myself after I've paid my money for it.

 

You're kind of missing the point.

 

Penalties are supposed to be apart of the game just like bonuses are. People can play how they want and I already gave a suggestion on how custom products could be done. But easily manipulating something to avoid a gameplay function is an exploit.

 

The fact that you can not run a 20-minute angle on overness anymore supports my claim that maybe he thought this area was an exploit and wasn't the way he (the creative) wanted the game to play.

[daddytorgo1]

You're kind of missing the point.

 

Penalties are supposed to be apart of the game just like bonuses are. People can play how they want and I already gave a suggestion on how custom products could be done. But easily manipulating something to avoid a gameplay function is an exploit.

 

The fact that you can not run a 20-minute angle on overness anymore supports my claim that maybe he thought this area was an exploit and wasn't the way he (the creative) wanted the game to play.

 

I'm not missing the point. I'm fine with penalties and bonuses. I'm not one to try to gimmick my way to success, I don't find enjoyment with that. But without custom products it's going to be virtually impossible for Adam to keep up with all the different ways that people want to play with the game that they paid for.

 

What if someone wants 25% angles and a whole bunch of other specs, and somebody else wants 30%? Is Adam going to create a product for each one, and people are going to have to sit there and wait for that to be done before they can continue? Or is someone going to be told "sorry, you're out of luck?"

 

What if they then evolve their company in a slightly different direction and want to tweak it some more so that they can have more angles, or fewer angles? Or include more hardcore matches? Are they going to have to wait again?

 

I don't want custom products so that I can gimmick the system to get higher ratings for my company. I want them because until I get into the game and see who I sign, who I'm developing, and how they're developing, I don't know how my product is going to evolve.

[Chikbot]

You're kind of missing the point.

 

Penalties are supposed to be apart of the game just like bonuses are. People can play how they want and I already gave a suggestion on how custom products could be done. But easily manipulating something to avoid a gameplay function is an exploit.

 

The fact that you can not run a 20-minute angle on overness anymore supports my claim that maybe he thought this area was an exploit and wasn't the way he (the creative) wanted the game to play.

 

The question is then, does a dev really have the right to decide such things for the players?

If something is usually cool within the genre it takes place in and the dev decides "I don't like how people do [thing], I'm going to take out every possible way to do [thing]." That's hampering the freedom of the player in what is essentially, a sandbox game to some people. Some people don't play this game with the competitive aspect in mind, should we just go and make our own game then with blackjack and hookers?

[alex6291]

You're kind of missing the point.

 

Penalties are supposed to be apart of the game just like bonuses are. People can play how they want and I already gave a suggestion on how custom products could be done. But easily manipulating something to avoid a gameplay function is an exploit.

 

The fact that you can not run a 20-minute angle on overness anymore supports my claim that maybe he thought this area was an exploit and wasn't the way he (the creative) wanted the game to play.

 

Like I said a few post higher, custom products aren't an exploit,a lot of the options in User Preference are, and they're here since forever, nobody find them problematic however. Because it's a choice, do we want the hardest game possible, a sandbox, or something in the middle, the series already allow that since the beginning.

 

 

For the match ratio that some mention, don't forget that we have a 15% leeway, but maybe some find this still limited. That's why we need Custom, we all have different expectation.

 

 

Just allow to add variance in preset will be enough for me, I don't want to create a product with no penalities, just change things that I find false (puroresu first). But some of us want more freedom, it's not a multi game and not everyone make a diary, it will always be optionnal so if you don't like it, don't use it.

 

There's no debate here, it's a new feature not a gameplay change. The game has been postpone, 2 weeks isn't just for a new skin and bugs, they're probably new feature and minor gameplay change that will be comming.

[Lex Star]

You're kind of missing the point.

 

Penalties are supposed to be apart of the game just like bonuses are. People can play how they want and I already gave a suggestion on how custom products could be done. But easily manipulating something to avoid a gameplay function is an exploit.

 

The fact that you can not run a 20-minute angle on overness anymore supports my claim that maybe he thought this area was an exploit and wasn't the way he (the creative) wanted the game to play.

 

The problem is that there isn't an existing product in the game for literally every conceivable situation and to expect Adam to be able to add them to the game is asking a lot.

 

Vince McMahon "created" the Sports Entertainment style product, who's to say someone making their own company in TEW can't do the same for a different style?

 

Plus the whole Puro always needing clean finishes or else the fans get turned off, I'd like to introduce you to one of the biggest things in modern wrestling - The Bullet Club.

[alex6291]

The problem is that there isn't an existing product in the game for literally every conceivable situation and to expect Adam to be able to add them to the game is asking a lot.

 

Vince McMahon "created" the Sports Entertainment style product, who's to say someone making their own company in TEW can't do the same for a different style?

 

Plus the whole Puro always needing clean finishes or else the fans get turned off, I'd like to introduce you to one of the biggest things in modern wrestling - The Bullet Club.

 

Bullet Club and Suzuki-Gun (Does someone have seen Taichi win a lot of big match without cheating?). We can go like that up to 70s with Inoki, Bruiser Brody, Hansen, Abdullah and all the guys comming with NWA, lots of DQ and Draw.

 

It's like "silent crowd", Japanese are silent at the beginning of a match, they're in fire at the end.

 

Too many cliche.

[jesseewiak]

1. Yeah, the 'modern puro' product (I forget it's name) should be adjusted to allow for some non-clean finishes.

 

2. The angle/match ratio thing is kind of being overblown. The 15% cushion in either direction has always been plenty for me.

 

3. On sex appeal, I think the idea, or at least my head canon is, (and has been since sex appeal wasn nerfed in 2010), was that if Rock vs. Steve Austin were having a promo battle, even if Stacy Keibler in a string bikini showed up, that wouldn't actually make the angle better. If anything, since it'd be distracting, it'd make it slightly worse.

[alex6291]

1. Yeah, the 'modern puro' product (I forget it's name) should be adjusted to allow for some non-clean finishes.

 

2. The angle/match ratio thing is kind of being overblown. The 15% cushion in either direction has always been plenty for me.

 

3. On sex appeal, I think the idea, or at least my head canon is, (and has been since sex appeal wasn nerfed in 2010), was that if Rock vs. Steve Austin were having a promo battle, even if Stacy Keibler in a string bikini showed up, that wouldn't actually make the angle better. If anything, since it'd be distracting, it'd make it slightly worse.

 

Not only modern puro, all of them, only shootstyle wrestling was clean finishes.

 

For the sex appeal, if Stacy in bikini will have a sense story-wise with Rock and Austin, the crowd will cheer her, that's the difference between Russo booking and Heyman, having an angle that make sense.

But here we talked about only rated on sex appeal, so no Rocky unless you want to do a bikini contest with Keibler and The Rock... I don't know if I want to see that, McMahon will declare Rocky winner for sure, more muscle

[Questlove]

You're kind of missing the point.

 

Penalties are supposed to be apart of the game just like bonuses are. People can play how they want and I already gave a suggestion on how custom products could be done. But easily manipulating something to avoid a gameplay function is an exploit.

 

The fact that you can not run a 20-minute angle on overness anymore supports my claim that maybe he thought this area was an exploit and wasn't the way he (the creative) wanted the game to play.

 

Not being funny, but if as a developer your desire to make the customers play the way you want them to is restricting them from playing a) how they want and b) realistically, it's time to let your own feelings on it go. This is like if custom tactics were removed from Football Manager in favour of presets and the presets didn't even include a good portion of real world tactics.

[Bull]

Not being funny, but if as a developer your desire to make the customers play the way you want them to is restricting them from playing a) how they want and b) realistically, it's time to let your own feelings on it go. This is like if custom tactics were removed from Football Manager in favour of presets and the presets didn't even include a good portion of real world tactics.

 

For this I really don't think his desire was to force people to play his way as much as it was to simplify an overly complicated process for most people. Obviously it wasn't an issue for many people here, but to some I feel sure it was a daunting task diving into the old screen trying to customize a product, as well as for mod makers trying to add numerous companies to a database. . There are plenty of other restrictive features implemented for realism sake, or what ever the case may be but I truly don't think this was one of them. .

[Lex Star]

For this I really don't think his desire was to force people to play his way as much as it was to simplify an overly complicated process for most people. Obviously it wasn't an issue for many people here, but to some I feel sure it was a daunting task diving into the old screen trying to customize a product, as well as for mod makers trying to add numerous companies to a database. . There are plenty of other restrictive features implemented for realism sake, or what ever the case may be but I truly don't think this was one of them. .

 

Yeah, it's definitely a step in the right direction overall, but the option to have your own custom products should have been a thing that was included. The products included aren't perfect. There are a few things wrong about them, the glaring one being all "Sports based" companies preclude you from having good guys and bad guys, if everyone plays fair can you really have faces and heels? Even in "legit" competition there will always be that guy that will do anything to win, up to and including cheating and there is a difference between turning the fans off from doing so and getting legit heel heat for it.

[BiffJordan]

I agree, for RW modding (current day, at least) the new system is generally much more intuitive but there's a few cases where there's nothing that fits.

 

I would like the ability to go under the hood and make use of all the new options to make a completely custom, in depth product where you choose expected match times, whether violence is dinged or not, if the fans accept cinematic matches etc. Basically everything you see on the right side when selecting your product being fully customizable would be incredible.

 

YES

[southside_hitmen]

I’ll add a bunch more on this topic later, but this is a big issue for me.

 

At it’s best in the current state, Adam is going to have to play whack-a-mole adding new products in patches (which will still leave people unsatisfied bc there is no way he gets everything “right” or all the suggestions “in”) vs adding new features to or improving the game.

 

And at worst he’s alienated his user base and they decide to stay on 2016 to play “their” company.

 

I don’t think people have a problem with contributing To add new products, etc... It’s the feedback loop of weeks to begin playing a game you want to play that’s the big issue for me. And that’s assuming the product you want to play actually gets deemed “necessary” and put in. It’s 2020 and a game we have been able to edit the product for years. You shouldn’t have to wait for an official patch from the developer to play the game the way you want to play it.

 

The sheer number of people wading into the beta reaction thread and asking if they can edit products is a clear indication that this has not been communicated well.

And it’s day 4 of the beta.

[TOTKingNothing]

For this I really don't think his desire was to force people to play his way as much as it was to simplify an overly complicated process for most people. Obviously it wasn't an issue for many people here, but to some I feel sure it was a daunting task diving into the old screen trying to customize a product, as well as for mod makers trying to add numerous companies to a database. . There are plenty of other restrictive features implemented for realism sake, or what ever the case may be but I truly don't think this was one of them. .

 

We have two features this year that were designed to take a complicated system and make it more simple for certain players and for mod makers. Gimmicks and Products.

 

Gimmicks was made simpler by making it totally customizable, free form, and creative. It has been widely received as a good change.

 

Products was made far more restrictive and took away any ability to customize or fine tune. As well as that, it is a downgrade in freedom offered by many previous games. This feature has been received somewhat negatively.

 

The tale of two design choices.

 

If preset products were the default and customizing your own was an option behind a different button there would be 0 complaints. I also don’t think you as a player should have a say in your product unless you are the owner or you are creating your own company either from scratch in game or from in the editor.

 

Also to the person saying that custom products were becoming an “exploit”, the game offers a literal in game editor so that you can exploit changes to contracts, size, money, broadcasting etc etc. That is a total non issue in this debate and shouldn’t be considered.

[Bull]

We have two features this year that were designed to take a complicated system and make it more simple for certain players and for mod makers. Gimmicks and Products.

 

Gimmicks was made simpler by making it totally customizable, free form, and creative. It has been widely received as a good change.

 

Products was made far more restrictive and took away any ability to customize or fine tune. As well as that, it is a downgrade in freedom offered by many previous games. This feature has been received somewhat negatively.

 

The tale of two design choices.

 

If preset products were the default and customizing your own was an option behind a different button there would be 0 complaints. I also don’t think you as a player should have a say in your product unless you are the owner or you are creating your own company either from scratch in game or from in the editor.

 

Also to the person saying that custom products were becoming an “exploit”, the game offers a literal in game editor so that you can exploit changes to contracts, size, money, broadcasting etc etc. That is a total non issue in this debate and shouldn’t be considered.

 

I mean I understand people's desire to have the option, variety is always nice so I definitely agree that having the option to make your own is something that shouldn't have be totally removed, maybe just dumbed down some. But in a similar vein to the whole time decline thread debate, and the argument on booking penalties, I jut think its a bit obsessive to want to avoid something just because it's listed as a penalty for the sake of directness, when in my opinion it's simply a valid limitation of certain product types. . With that said I see the points on some of the examples listed on that front also as far as those limitations are concerned and simply having the ability to edit it yourself would be easier for everyone. .

 

I think the whole "exploit" thing is just because you could game the old system just enough to get the benefits of certain products while avoiding the downsides. . At this point it seems like a trade off with every new iteration of the game. One year the loudest group wants more realistic features, then when they get them, another louder group comes in and wants more freedom. . rinse and repeat the cycle continues. .

 

Either way if it can be added then I see no reason not to do so, personally I'd probably just stick with the simpler method as I much rather spend my time booking the product rather than tweaking it, but that's just my opinion. .

[Grand Avatar]

Yeah, I disagree with removing the system entirely. Not every player used Custom Products to "game the system", some of us generally enjoyed creating our own unique company to play as. Removing the system entirely doesn't just stop people from going on "easy mode", it punishes the people who played it the "right way" for no real reason.

[pate]

 

Plus the whole Puro always needing clean finishes or else the fans get turned off, I'd like to introduce you to one of the biggest things in modern wrestling - The Bullet Club.

 

I would argue that those finishes do turn the fans off. And that's the point behind them, building 'real' heat by making the audience mad. Which in game terms would hurt the match rating.

[daddytorgo1]

 

3. On sex appeal, I think the idea, or at least my head canon is, (and has been since sex appeal wasn nerfed in 2010), was that if Rock vs. Steve Austin were having a promo battle, even if Stacy Keibler in a string bikini showed up, that wouldn't actually make the angle better. If anything, since it'd be distracting, it'd make it slightly worse.

 

Speak for yourself. Stacy Keibler in a string bikini is always a welcome sight IMHO.