PSA: It's OK to get penalised for things in segments!

[Blackman]

I've done plenty of segments that are against the "rules". Face vs Face matches that reach 99.

 

Hopefully people now understand.

 

Please show me these screenshots of your penalized "99" matches with the demo, I'm intrigued.

 

It's hard to follow discussions as they are held all over the place, and during these launch days the forum is quite chaotic, so maybe I'm mistaken of what the core of the issue is. If it's mainly about people fearing the penalties, then this explanation is just. Valiantly defending the way it's worded in the game quite frankly isn't the way to solve these issues. And you're acting like the only truth has been spoken here.

 

At least SirMichaelJordan makes a constructive suggestion that could potentially end these complaints. I also believe it must be partly in the presentation and wording. You don't need to word the mechanics literaly to players.

 

Also: if we know more bout the harshness of the penalties, the complaints will lessen. I think people see their crap rating and will immediately assume that it's because of the penalties, perhaps being ignorant about the relative way of rating. They also see the AI acing everything, and assume they've done something wrong.

[Skummy]

Of all you wrote this is what caught my eye with something thats been driving me crazy. All my matches and segments, for lack of a better term, suck. I was testing out Genadi's 1997 mod and a promo between Austin and Vince got a 55 and I about had a stroke. I really don't understand the new scale.

 

This could be any number of things, particularly with it being a mod converted from TEW 2016. At a guess, I would think that maybe one or both of them were rated on Overness, whereas if they were rated on Entertainment or Mic Skills, it would have performed better.

[Skummy]

At least SirMichaelJordan makes a constructive suggestion that could potentially end these complaints. I also believe it must be partly in the presentation and wording. You don't need to word the mechanics literaly to players.

 

I agree here that I think the system could be better communicated to players, both directly in-game and elsewhere - in the manual, and on supporting posts on the forums.

[SirMichaelJordan]

This could be any number of things, particularly with it being a mod converted from TEW 2016. At a guess, I would think that maybe one or both of them were rated on Overness, whereas if they were rated on Entertainment or Mic Skills, it would have performed better.

 

Also things like overness isn’t expected to last over 5 minutes anymore. In prior versions, overness was probably the most used in angles. This versions now have action and non action things to be rated on. Non action ratings aren’t suppose to last long. Overness is now suppose to be used in off screen angles or if the worker is just there doing absolutely nothing. Unless you read the handbook, you wouldn’t know this so I assume people are booking the old style of TEW and aren’t scoring high.

[southside_hitmen]

D-Lyrium,

 

This is a WONDERFUL post. I agree with basically all of your points. Absolutely, if something is not a "fit" for the product, there should be penalties assigned to replicate it did not fit the expectation of the product.

 

The point that I (and I can only speak for myself here) am making is that the premise that 100% of people "agree" on what a product looks like is the problem.

 

In previous games in this series, if you and I disagreed (even slightly) what a product looked like, you or I could change it.

 

Now, neither you, or I, have the ability to control that directly. We can choose from a list, yes. That list may have been crowd-sourced, tested, vetted and agreed upon by 90%+ of people. This is great and most if not all of the products that are in the game are actually setup perfectly well.

 

It's that, before, if I disagreed, I could change it to how I saw it to be. Same with worker stats, angles, match types, etc... Now I can't.

 

Again, I can only speak for myself personally here, it's not that I am trying to min/max things, dissolve all penalties, that I need to "git gud" at the game, or that I am trying to cheese my way to good ratings.

 

Before, people could specifically "set" the expectations for their audience. It's the failure to recognize that people disagree on what a product "is" when they look at it that is the sticking point for me.

 

Now, if I disagree, my only recourse is to:

- Look for a product that is very different than my current one

- submit a request to change an existing product setup, wait weeks for it to get in (if it does), which will then inevitably upset other people who thought it was "right

- submit a request to add a product, even if it is a slight modification, and get it deemed worthy of putting in the game

 

I want to echo again, I agree with pretty much all your points. The system should penalize things that aren't "on brand". There should be expectations that you need to hit on your product.

 

It's the fact that you can't create what you want that brand to be anymore on your own. That's the problem for me.

[ShaunGBD]

I don't care about affecting my shows at what point does it affect my wrestler popularity?

[D16NJD16]

I don't like penalties on a philosophical level. I prefer bonuses, which can accomplish the same thing without the negativity associated with a "penalty".

 

A bonus can't accomplish the same thing as a penalty, no.

[Pipers Pit]

I think you're right. I probably gave them 10 mins based on overness cause that used to be a guaranteed 95+. I was not aware of a handbook. Is it part of the game program or something here on the boards?

[CloudCityCasual]

So i may be off base on what this thread turned into, but i had a little fun with MAW this past weekend to try and test put the new push system.

 

So i liked Seth Whitehead in TEW16 and i thought, screw it, lets have him win the RCI and rocket him up card. So i booked him to win in convincing fashion in all 3 matches and wrestled about 30ish minutes combined, and cut a celebration promo calling out Bradley Blaze.

 

I got the penalty "Seth Whitehead was used too much" after the show, and honestly i agree. I Jinder Mahal'd his way to a huge win. Fans came to see Miller Forde or Cheetah Boy win, not him.

 

But after the show? Seth Whitehead was now viewed as a Star for MAW and pulled mid-50's rating Blaze for the title at the next show. Where between interview segments, match time, and post match celebration, he was on the show for another 30ish minutes. and i got no penalty at all about being overused.

 

So i agree that some penalties are okay and even good, as i feel it adds a layer of realism. Even if it involves virtual Dave Meltzer hating on Seth Whitehead for one show!

[franticloser]

I think you're right. I probably gave them 10 mins based on overness cause that used to be a guaranteed 95+. I was not aware of a handbook. Is it part of the game program or something here on the boards?

 

Click on any of the questions marks in the upper right corner of any screen of the game good sir.

[Pipers Pit]

Bless you. I'm completely backwards with this stuff.

[Matt_Black]

I've played a few ACPW shows and I've gotten the red text penalties notes on nearly every match (with the exception of anything Simony Sentinel in, because she's fantastic). That still hasn't kept me from increasing pop with every show.

[SirMichaelJordan]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Bork_Laser" data-cite="Bork_Laser" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48383" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So i may be off base on what this thread turned into, but i had a little fun with MAW this past weekend to try and test put the new push system.<p> </p><p> So i liked Seth Whitehead in TEW16 and i thought, screw it, lets have him win the RCI and rocket him up card. So i booked him to win in convincing fashion in all 3 matches and wrestled about 30ish minutes combined, and cut a celebration promo calling out Bradley Blaze.</p><p> </p><p> I got the penalty "Seth Whitehead was used too much" after the show, and honestly i agree. I Jinder Mahal'd his way to a huge win. Fans came to see Miller Forde or Cheetah Boy win, not him.</p><p> </p><p> But after the show? Seth Whitehead was now viewed as a Star for MAW and pulled mid-50's rating Blaze for the title at the next show. Where between interview segments, match time, and post match celebration, he was on the show for another 30ish minutes. and i got no penalty at all about being overused.</p><p> </p><p> So i agree that some penalties are okay and even good, as i feel it adds a layer of realism. Even if it involves virtual Dave Meltzer hating on Seth Whitehead for one show!</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Lol that’s actually a great idea. The penalty notes can be virtual Dave Meltzer lol</p>

[SirMichaelJordan]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Pipers Pit" data-cite="Pipers Pit" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48383" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think you're right. I probably gave them 10 mins based on overness cause that used to be a guaranteed 95+. I was not aware of a handbook. Is it part of the game program or something here on the boards?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It’s in the game. Just click on the question mark.</p><p> </p><p> It could have been better implemented because I’m sure a lot more people have missed it.</p>

[alex6291]

<p>Penalties are good for the gameplay, but there's mistakes on some products like only clean finishes for puro.</p><p> </p><p>

Since it's impossible to satisfied everyone, we need a way to at least tweak the products, add variance to them. Some penalties need to be change (there's some good idea propose in he suggestions) and add precise information for better comprehension.</p><p> </p><p>

There's been a lot of talk about them so I'm sure that Adam will take them into account.</p>

[SirMichaelJordan]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="alex6291" data-cite="alex6291" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48383" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Penalties are good for the gameplay, but there's mistakes on some products like only clean finishes for puro.<p> </p><p> Since it's impossible to satisfied everyone, we need a way to at least tweak the products, add variance to them. Some penalties need to be change (there's some good idea propose in he suggestions) and add precise information for better comprehension.</p><p> </p><p> There's been a lot of talk about them so I'm sure that Adam will take them into account.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don’t think it says only clean finishes. Just a clean finish will always rate higher than a non clean finish.</p>

[jtnlange]

<p>Amen brother</p><p> </p><p>

Trevor L.</p>

[WCGreyghost]

A bonus can't accomplish the same thing as a penalty, no.

 

Sure it can. Say the product calls for matches that are 15 minutes or longer. Instead of punishing shorter matches, you can reward longer ones. The net effect is similar, just with different mechanics/positioning.

[Eastshire]

Good post. I wanted to disagree but couldn’t.

 

Another thing I thought about though is match and angle focus. If you’re main event focused and your main event is on product, you can eat a lot of bad matches on the rest of the card and still come out good.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Sure it can. Say the product calls for matches that are 15 minutes or longer. Instead of punishing shorter matches, you can reward longer ones. The net effect is similar, just with different mechanics/positioning.

 

That would be very unbalanced. Pretty much playing EWR at that point.

[WCGreyghost]

That would be very unbalanced. Pretty much playing EWR at that point.

 

Howso? Your low level talent isn't going to be able to work more than 15 minutes anyway, so they won't qualify for bonuses...they'll still get lower ratings appropriate for that part of the card. Upper level talent in major matches will get higher ratings for working longer matches. The numbers should largely stay the same, it's just how it's presented to the player.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Howso? Your low level talent isn't going to be able to work more than 15 minutes anyway, so they won't qualify for bonuses...they'll still get lower ratings appropriate for that part of the card. Upper level talent in major matches will get higher ratings for working longer matches. The numbers should largely stay the same, it's just how it's presented to the player.

 

Why wouldn’t they be able to work 15 minute matches?

[Remianen]

The issue with that is that some peoples way of playing is now giving them negatives. It isn't fun being penalized for playing a game in a series that you've been playing for potentially 4 years (2016-2020) or way longer, and suddenly what you've been doing is just wrong. You can tell people "it's okay!" But when the game is actively telling you that it "isn't okay" it just creates a weird feeling. Plus you shouldn't have to PSA anything, if the game has faults, let it be addressed. Don't just tell people to accept it, especially if a lot of people don't accept it. That is a legitimate problem, and will stunt the development of a game we all love.

 

It won't stunt anything. Anyone who has gamed for any amount of time can tell you about games changing from one installment to the next. Skyrim wasn't the same game as Daggerfall. Systems changed along the way. I started playing this franchise in TEW04. Every game has changed and forced players to adjust to new mechanics. If you play TEW07 the same way you played TEW05, you'll fail. Miserably. I can say that from experience. I had to change my approach to how I book (and sell off my t-shirt shooting guns) before I could even begin to be successful. What I was doing was just wrong for that new game. The idea that a game should stay the same in every incarnation is folly. Heck, the Resident Evil 3 remake isn't even the same as the original!

 

The game simply tells you how a particular segment could've been made better. That's it. If the opportunity cost for doing so doesn't make sense to you (the ultimate authority), you can ignore the so-called penalties. Most of those penalties are so minor, they probably shouldn't even be mentioned. But holes of the arse like me banged the table for years about wanting to know everything so we got the dirt sheet and this is an extension of that.

 

Sure it can. Say the product calls for matches that are 15 minutes or longer. Instead of punishing shorter matches, you can reward longer ones. The net effect is similar, just with different mechanics/positioning.

 

Human history has proven that carrot & stick works better. If everyone is exceptional then no one is. If everything gets a bonus then the lowest bonus will be taken as a penalty by many ("Why am I being penalized by not getting the maximum bonus?!?").

 

D-Lyrium isn't PSAing anything (other than the title). He's telling you exactly what many people have known for years. If you let the game dictate to you, you're doing it wrong. You can be successful even with "penalties" noted so you shouldn't let the mere appearance of a penalty dissuade you from doing what you want to do. With few exceptions (which are easy to figure out), you will almost never produce a truly perfect segment according to the game engine. I've had what would've been a 100 rated angle dinged because of the storyline's "low" heat (88, so the angle only rated 95) but guess what? That storyline's heat wasn't 88 anymore. Means to an end. Which is why I blew off the penalty. The same can be said for matches. "Oh no, my 17 minute long match got dinged for lack of psychology. Okay, next time I book that worker, I'll script the match and slow build it" Game outputs are heads ups, not imperatives.

[WCGreyghost]

Why wouldn’t they be able to work 15 minute matches?

 

I'd expect to get the overuse note, at least in my TCW save. Unknowns seem to be limited to about 10-12 minutes. I tend to have large rosters, so shorter matches help me get more guys on a show.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I'd expect to get the overuse note, at least in my TCW save. Unknowns seem to be limited to about 10-12 minutes. I tend to have large rosters, so shorter matches help me get more guys on a show.

 

Overuse is a penalty though.