PSA: It's OK to get penalised for things in segments!

[SirMichaelJordan]

It won't stunt anything. Anyone who has gamed for any amount of time can tell you about games changing from one installment to the next. Skyrim wasn't the same game as Daggerfall. Systems changed along the way. I started playing this franchise in TEW04. Every game has changed and forced players to adjust to new mechanics. If you play TEW07 the same way you played TEW05, you'll fail. Miserably. I can say that from experience. I had to change my approach to how I book (and sell off my t-shirt shooting guns) before I could even begin to be successful. What I was doing was just wrong for that new game. The idea that a game should stay the same in every incarnation is folly. Heck, the Resident Evil 3 remake isn't even the same as the original!

 

The game simply tells you how a particular segment could've been made better. That's it. If the opportunity cost for doing so doesn't make sense to you (the ultimate authority), you can ignore the so-called penalties. Most of those penalties are so minor, they probably shouldn't even be mentioned. But holes of the arse like me banged the table for years about wanting to know everything so we got the dirt sheet and this is an extension of that.

 

 

 

Human history has proven that carrot & stick works better. If everyone is exceptional then no one is. If everything gets a bonus then the lowest bonus will be taken as a penalty by many ("Why am I being penalized by not getting the maximum bonus?!?").

 

D-Lyrium isn't PSAing anything (other than the title). He's telling you exactly what many people have known for years. If you let the game dictate to you, you're doing it wrong. You can be successful even with "penalties" noted so you shouldn't let the mere appearance of a penalty dissuade you from doing what you want to do. With few exceptions (which are easy to figure out), you will almost never produce a truly perfect segment according to the game engine. I've had what would've been a 100 rated angle dinged because of the storyline's "low" heat (88, so the angle only rated 95) but guess what? That storyline's heat wasn't 88 anymore. Means to an end. Which is why I blew off the penalty. The same can be said for matches. "Oh no, my 17 minute long match got dinged for lack of psychology. Okay, next time I book that worker, I'll script the match and slow build it" Game outputs are heads ups, not imperatives.

 

Spot on with the “no bonus equals penalties”

 

That’s the main reason advanced booking was taken out before. People felt like they needed to do it or else they will miss out on the bonus.

 

So either way there still penalties but you just now made the game unbalanced.

 

Ying & Yang

Risk & reward

[WCGreyghost]

Overuse is a penalty though.

 

Call it what you will, TV time is too valuable to give low level talent long matches on an A show. They're mostly there to put over higher level guys. With TCW, on TV, my main event goes 22ish minutes. My semi-main might get 20, and a third match--likely the mandated Wild Brawl--will get 15 minutes. Everything else is going to come in shorter than that. I want to get as many guys TV time as possible, to boost their popularity.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Call it what you will, TV time is too valuable to give low level talent long matches on an A show. They're mostly there to put over higher level guys. With TCW, on TV, my main event goes 22ish minutes. My semi-main might get 20, and a third match--likely the mandated Wild Brawl--will get 15 minutes. Everything else is going to come in shorter than that. I want to get as many guys TV time as possible, to boost their popularity.

 

So what’s stoping me from giving a jobber 15 minutes matches if he’ll get a boost if he’s not going to get a overused penalty (because TV time) that boost will improve the match rating and give him more popularity.

 

Sounds like unbalanced gameplay.

 

With a penalty i have to be more strategic of eating the penalty for the greater good.

[tormyb]

I think there are lots of good points on both sides of the debate. I feel a little bit conflicted as to exactly where I stand. I'm probably in agreement with most of the penalties as they are, but what do I know, the game isn't even released yet.

 

The following is mainly about match length and overuse penalties.

 

One one hand, I like that there are certain penalties which are likely to ping lower card matches and differentiate them from the main events which get the time. I'm sure many of us have got real world examples of midcard matches between amazing performers, which were way less entertaining than they could have been due to not getting enough time. There are countless stories of matches (I'm mainly thinking about WWE here) with great potential being too short to make room for lengthy matches elsewhere, and then underwhelming. The match length penalties do represent this.

 

There do need to be ways for the match grade to represent that Tommy Cornell vs Sean McFly in a main event with all the time they want, is an entirely different beast (not just a few points) to them being crammed in a short match on the midcard. TEW 16's less harsh penalties often didn't quite reflect this as well.

 

I wonder, however, whether the penalty should apply equally to all match types. It does seem difficult when certain product types require match types which conflict with length expectations. Could, perhaps, short match length penalties be reduced for "Steal the Show" or even for matches with the "All Out" road agent note, or something of that nature?

 

I also wonder if people feel a little as if they are being punished twice (maybe they should be punished twice?), in certain instances. For example, a less popular worker will already be getting a lower grade due to lower popularity. Then, in some products, they will usually receive an additional penalty for the match being too short or, if the match is long enough to avoid that penalty, for the worker being overused.

 

Now, there is certainly an argument that less popular workers should be receiving these penalties. I certainly wouldn't advocate being able to smash out sensational ratings for every match on every show, and penalties do create this more realistic variety in match grades.

 

That being said, to those who do not like the penalties (aside from the +vs- debate), is it partly because you feel that you are being punished twice for the same thing? The first punishment being that the worker will already be getting a lower grade because of their lower popularity. The second punishment being that, with overuse penalties overlapping (or close to) match length penalties, those workers are then being punished for their lack of popularity a second time by overuse penalties - which are a result of lacking popularity.

 

I'm not entirely sure why I'm getting so into this - given I play with penalties off whenever I feel like it, and don't really care about "getting good" - but I thought I'd put my ideas out there and see if anything resonates. Yeah, well, you know...that's just like...my opinion, man.

 

 

 

Edit: Should have mentioned this before I went off on my ramble. Great original post, really detailed an well thought out.

[Hawk1665]

Here's the thing though; real world products are not set in stone. They evolve and change over time either through major shifts (mid 90's WWE to late 90's WWE) or small shifts in tone or setting.

 

Lets use NJPW for instance. Every decade has changed in how the product was presented or focused on. NJPW often had non-clean finishes in the 70's and 80's for major matches, there were gimmicky wrestlers, there were wild out of control brawls. By the 90's that had changed where the focus was put significantly more on in-ring work but there were still angles and events going. Early/mid 00's had Inokism and a "return" to a much more shoot fighting/"realistic" focus on legitimate tough guys. Late 00's and 2010's saw a revitalization on the focus on ring-work but also a rise in characters and flamboyance. 2010's also saw a return in non-finishes and interference akin to what 70's and 80's NJPW saw (though less infuriating or causing NCO/DQ's in major matches). But at the core of NJPW it's still fundamentally been the same promotion even if aspects of it have changed over time.

 

That's the issue. As TEW 2020 is right now, there's no way to change or adapt the promotion over time without making grand sweeping changes to the style. You couldn't run a realistic NJPW because you can't make those subtle (though important) changes throughout the years.

[alex6291]

I don’t think it says only clean finishes. Just a clean finish will always rate higher than a non clean finish.

 

Yes tainted and cheat get big penalties.

 

The problem is that in the 80s, lot of big matches ended in DQ, double DQ... matches with Inoki, Hansen, Brody so not small guys. Then with the rise of MMA they were less but still there, and at the end, Inoki-ism almost killed NJPW.

Today DQ is only used on touring (Suzuki-gun for example) but cheating (so Tainted finishes) are still present (Jay White, Taichi for examples). Those guy are really popular and fans don't find those matches disappointed because of the finish.

 

I think us occidental think that japanese prefer clean finishes cause we see them far less in their shows (in particular key events), but in my opinion it's us that have been overexposed thanks to WCW WWF/E.

If use wisely (which is what they done since AJPW and NJPW been created) japanese aren't upset, those finishes just need a purpose in the rivalities.

 

Someone propose that instead of penalties, having for example 2 non clean finishes per show before being penalized for using them too much. I think it's reflect better the reality of puro and stop that cliche, only shoot-style/MMA style have to get penalized for those finishes in all matches.

[Jaded]

That's the issue. As TEW 2020 is right now, there's no way to change or adapt the promotion over time without making grand sweeping changes to the style. You couldn't run a realistic NJPW because you can't make those subtle (though important) changes throughout the years.

 

This isn't true, is it? There's a core product which it'll never move away from and a current product. You can switch current products, with various products being close enough to your core one that you can get the switch done in a few months and not alienate your fans. Doesn't that describe the gradual shifts you're talking about?

[SirMichaelJordan]

Here's the thing though; real world products are not set in stone. They evolve and change over time either through major shifts (mid 90's WWE to late 90's WWE) or small shifts in tone or setting.

 

Lets use NJPW for instance. Every decade has changed in how the product was presented or focused on. NJPW often had non-clean finishes in the 70's and 80's for major matches, there were gimmicky wrestlers, there were wild out of control brawls. By the 90's that had changed where the focus was put significantly more on in-ring work but there were still angles and events going. Early/mid 00's had Inokism and a "return" to a much more shoot fighting/"realistic" focus on legitimate tough guys. Late 00's and 2010's saw a revitalization on the focus on ring-work but also a rise in characters and flamboyance. 2010's also saw a return in non-finishes and interference akin to what 70's and 80's NJPW saw (though less infuriating or causing NCO/DQ's in major matches). But at the core of NJPW it's still fundamentally been the same promotion even if aspects of it have changed over time.

 

That's the issue. As TEW 2020 is right now, there's no way to change or adapt the promotion over time without making grand sweeping changes to the style. You couldn't run a realistic NJPW because you can't make those subtle (though important) changes throughout the years.

 

You can change a product. And they aren’t immediate changes. The close the product is related to your core product, the faster the change. Also there are literally products that change over time base on the year.

[WCGreyghost]

So what’s stoping me from giving a jobber 15 minutes matches if he’ll get a boost if he’s not going to get a overused penalty (because TV time) that boost will improve the match rating and give him more popularity.

 

Sounds like unbalanced gameplay.

 

With a penalty i have to be more strategic of eating the penalty for the greater good.

 

Maybe I misunderstand, but I would expect a jobber going 15+ minutes is going to get a low rating because the jobber just doesn't have the skills to maintain a watchable match that long. So if you push him to work longer, he'll get a lower rating for the match + a bonus for the time, which should be less than what he'd get for doing 10 minutes and looking at the lights.

[Hawk1665]

You can change a product. And they aren’t immediate changes. The close the product is related to your core product, the faster the change. Also there are literally products that change over time base on the year.

 

NJPW never *changed* products. They've always been the same promotion. The details WITHIN the product were changed/adapted. We're talking very small changes not reflective of the same system we've got. Even the "modern" era of NJPW started in 07 is different from the 2020 NJPW.

 

In past games that would be reflective of changing something up from small to medium focus to reflect the change. Say upping realism/hyper realism up in the early 2000's. That changes things *a lot* but it's still the same overall product. You can not do that in 2020.

[pjs1986]

Great opening post. In real life, there's not many wrestling shows that would get through without any penalties or errors! It's all part of the game. If I play Football Manager or FIFA and win every game 10-0 it's going to be boring. Just my opinion but those penalties add to the game's playability and realism. There's not a 'product setting' in the world that should be low on penalties - every pro has a con; just look at real world responses to pretty much every show ever! I love AEW but am sick of jobber squash matches. I loved the Attitude Era but hated the 'Gang Wars'. 96/97 WCW was ace, but I'm fuming when Ernest Miller or Buff Bagwell come on.

[Blackman]

Again: it the note had an adjective concerning the severeness of the penalty, people would be less opposed to this idea. I once ran a show in TEW13 (I think) and got this penalty in the main event, so I reran it after fixing the penalty, and the rating was even lower. This has happened several times on other shows, until I just stopped bothering and went on. So this was such a minor penalty that the myriad of other factors into play just outweighed it, and turns out I rolled high on the consistency, or on crowd hotness or whatever. If I had known I would never have been pissed off that it happened. But you see a discrepancy in the rating and you attribute it to the penalty.

 

And some penalties make perfect sense, like the overuse one, but one can disagree it should be applied to your show. If you have a product where it's all on the main event (90% of the rating), then fans simply shouldn't care who is on the rest of the card. You can put unknowns on there and they will rate the match low because of popularity. But why punish the event when it delivered to the fans? Good luck explaining that one... ('cuz you can't, at least not if you want to make sense)

 

And as someone pointed out, sometimes you can just take it once to get better outcomes later on.

[Morti]

There is a lot of randomness in TEW anyway yeah, good point Blackman

[SirMichaelJordan]

NJPW never *changed* products. They've always been the same promotion. The details WITHIN the product were changed/adapted. We're talking very small changes not reflective of the same system we've got. Even the "modern" era of NJPW started in 07 is different from the 2020 NJPW.

 

In past games that would be reflective of changing something up from small to medium focus to reflect the change. Say upping realism/hyper realism up in the early 2000's. That changes things *a lot* but it's still the same overall product. You can not do that in 2020.

 

This is built in some products already. Depending on year it changes.

 

You can always suggest more of these type of products.

[pjs1986]

I dunno, see your point but in that example even if the majority of a show rating comes from the main event it's natural that fans would feel at least a bit disappointed if the entire undercard is people they've never seen or heard of? Main event might be prime Austin vs. prime Michaels, but if you're sitting through 2 hours of Johnny Nobody vs. Tommy Jobber then it's bound to have at least *some* effect

[SirMichaelJordan]

Maybe I misunderstand, but I would expect a jobber going 15+ minutes is going to get a low rating because the jobber just doesn't have the skills to maintain a watchable match that long. So if you push him to work longer, he'll get a lower rating for the match + a bonus for the time, which should be less than what he'd get for doing 10 minutes and looking at the lights.

 

You can be talented and be perceived as unimportant.

[WCGreyghost]

You can be talented and be perceived as unimportant.

 

Which means the fans don't care how talented you are. They want to see somebody they actually care about beat you.

[cwamaniac]

<p>An interesting discussion</p><p> </p><p>

My two cents though there a three major types of Tew players some players will have qualities of more than one.</p><p> </p><p>

1. The fantasy bookers - These guys just wanna book their dream matches they typically won’t care on their ratings too much as its for their own enjoyment anyways.</p><p> </p><p>

2. The Power Gamers- These players hate penalties as they see it as an imperfection , they will most certainly avoid any potential penalties to the point that their show becomes very stagnant, if they are a pure power gamer they won’t care too much on this fact however </p><p> </p><p>

Or </p><p> </p><p>

3. The Good Time Gamers- These players hence their name just wanna have fun in the game, penalties to them may or may not be an issue, but a rating drastically lower than they expect could take away some of their fun as these kinda players aren’t necessarily looking for a challenge.</p><p> </p><p>

If your the type of player who has no power gaming qualities the penalties wouldn’t be a major concern unless they are drastically off base (which is subjective as much as some people won’t admit it), if you have power gaming qualities though then this game is stagnating your booking a lot harsher than Tew 2016, thus eliminating some of the enjoyment from these players.</p><p> </p><p>

Fantasy bookers May see these penalties as restrictive if they have any power gaming qualities and as such will avoid branching out and trying too many new things in their booking or feel hindered by the products strictness (a different discussion though), the good time players will literally just adapt to the game over time as long as they are enjoying it more than the previous game </p><p> </p><p>

So to summarize penalties may or may not be tolerable depending on how you book if I had to suggest a particular change I’d have to agree with the person who suggested penalties not be red (as silly as that sounds), as it is a harsh color to see after a match you booked especially if there’s a lot of them, perhaps color coat the dirt sheet instead? That way the penalties are there but the first thing you see after booking is <span style="color:#FF0000;">YOU DID BAD</span></p><p> </p><p>

Did you notice the color text immediately? Congratulations you have some power gaming qualities lol</p>

[WCGreyghost]

Guess I'm a hybrid of those types. I want to run my old school fantasy booking, but also have it get good ratings, which makes me enjoy playing:)

[HarryFandango86]

<p>I always felt the product settings sometimes made things too easy to book a decent card every time, so taking on a long term ‘challenge’ would just become a bit boring and repetitive.. so I just end up fantasy booking. As these product settings in 2020 present more restrictions, I think a long term save (maybe wwe from the late 80s, or the Monday night wars) could be a lot more fun and challenging. It’s really hard to judge things based on 2 months gametime to work with and modded worlds designed for 2020 not being out yet. I don’t really play the default game worlds, so I can’t comment on those. I’ve just a feeling that games could be more interesting in the long term, once you have a decent amount of time to get settled into it.</p><p>

I think you can even just fantasy book in 2020 cos there’s product settings like “no style” style which seems to offer that kinda leeway and be less penalizing.</p>

[franticloser]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cwamaniac" data-cite="cwamaniac" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48383" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My two cents though there a three major types of Tew players some players will have qualities of more than one.<p> </p><p> 1. The fantasy bookers - These guys just wanna book their dream matches they typically won’t care on their ratings too much as its for their own enjoyment anyways.</p><p> </p><p> 2. The Power Gamers- These players hate penalties as they see it as an imperfection , they will most certainly avoid any potential penalties to the point that their show becomes very stagnant, if they are a pure power gamer they won’t care too much on this fact however </p><p> </p><p> Or </p><p> </p><p> 3. The Good Time Gamers- These players hence their name just wanna have fun in the game, penalties to them may or may not be an issue, but a rating drastically lower than they expect could take away some of their fun as these kinda players aren’t necessarily looking for a challenge.</p><p> </p><p> If your the type of player who has no power gaming qualities the penalties wouldn’t be a major concern unless they are drastically off base (which is subjective as much as some people won’t admit it), if you have power gaming qualities though then this game is stagnating your booking a lot harsher than Tew 2016, thus eliminating some of the enjoyment from these players.</p><p> </p><p> Fantasy bookers May see these penalties as restrictive if they have any power gaming qualities and as such will avoid branching out and trying too many new things in their booking or feel hindered by the products strictness (a different discussion though), the good time players will literally just adapt to the game over time as long as they are enjoying it more than the previous game </p><p> </p><p> So to summarize penalties may or may not be tolerable depending on how you book if I had to suggest a particular change I’d have to agree with the person who suggested penalties not be red (as silly as that sounds), as it is a harsh color to see after a match you booked especially if there’s a lot of them, perhaps color coat the dirt sheet instead? That way the penalties are there but the first thing you see after booking is <span style="color:#FF0000;">YOU DID BAD</span></p><p> </p><p> Did you notice the color text immediately? Congratulations you have some power gaming qualities lol</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> What about those of us who play it as a sim of real life? For me I like the challenge of not being able to toggle everything in the product as it forces me to book more realistically instead of just booking every company the same way every time. If I am playing as WCW in 89 I need to focus a lot more on in ring talent but also leave room for angles for my high end guys. If I am booking 97-00 WWF then I need to adjust my play style now. Like I am for sure not a power game or sandbox fantasy booker. I do play for fun, but my fun is derived from the challenge and learning how to better myself to get better grades, not get upset when I get them. I think this is what the game has always been intended to be, Adam added a bunch of sandbox options in 16 to appease that crowd, but prior to that it has always been more of simulator of running a company, with realistic limitations and expectations.</p>

[SirMichaelJordan]

<p>Yea i fall under #4 </p><p> </p><p>

Someone who plays and enjoys the game for a challenge.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

i also echo the point made about the ”No style” product setting. You can technically book what you want with that. No need to tinker with a setting.</p>

[KevinStorm]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48383" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Remember that time The Barbarian, Meng and The Warlord showed up in CHIKARA?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> <em>what</em></p>

[LoganRodzen]

Been saying this for years about TEW. Glad someone decided to go extremely in-depth to explain this. This isn't new to TEW2020, this has been the TEW series since the beginning. Book what you want!!

[Turkeyninja]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="D-Lyrium" data-cite="D-Lyrium" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48383" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Your desire for unrealistic levels of perfection is what's stopping you from running that show, not the game or your product.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This. There are some of out there, myself including, who don't really care about the "rules" of the game and just fantasy book. Do I want to have a deathmatch while playing as TCW? Then it's going to happen. Or maybe I want to bring in a women's division to USPW but base it on BOSC. I will do that too if that's what I wanted.</p><p> </p><p> I don't think people should restrict themselves to what the game says they have to do, that's not having fun if you ask me.</p>