Ratings make no sense

[thecoolestjedi12]

<p>I would do a few things to provide more info on what you are doing,</p><p> </p><p>

1. Provide the exact name of your real world mode, is it one made from a conversion on over from 2016 or made from scratch for TEW 2020?</p><p>

2. What do you see for the stats of the New Japan guys? You can check this in the in game editor if the exact values arent shown from the skills screen or in the database editor on the main menu.</p><p>

3. How are you booking these matches? Are they open, dominate, slow build, etc.?</p><p>

4. What are the negatives being given in your road agent notes/your show results screen? </p><p>

5. Check your location of where you run, running NJPW shows outside of Japan can ding your ratings since those workers won't be as known. </p><p> </p><p>

Tew 2020 has a definite learning curve to it unlike 2016 which I felt was a really smooth transition from 2016 and the mod working process won't be perfected or conversions won't be 100% accurate especially with everyone learning the game.</p>

[Hawk1665]

<p>You really can't complain about the game not working as intended when your using mods. TEW is built around the Cornellverse and it's the mod makers goal to model the CV as carefully as possible. That takes time and effort and a lot of patience. And everyone sees wrestlers differently. You may think Jay White is just a bad Kenny Omega replacement while I think he's one of the best wrestlers in the world. Or Yoshi Hashi is an underappreciated talent while I think he's boring as hell most of the time. Everyone's different.</p><p> </p><p>

That's the problem with real world mods. It's very hard to get right and what is "right" is entirely subjective.</p>

[ThrowawayAccount1227]

Pretty sure conversions are practically broken for the ratings.

[Lucas]

You really can't complain about the game not working as intended when your using mods. TEW is built around the Cornellverse and it's the mod makers goal to model the CV as carefully as possible. That takes time and effort and a lot of patience.

 

You realise CV is entirely fictional? The mod makers goal isn't to model the CV, it's to model real world or the time period as best as possible.

 

You may think Jay White is just a bad Kenny Omega replacement while I think he's one of the best wrestlers in the world. Or Yoshi Hashi is an underappreciated talent while I think he's boring as hell most of the time. Everyone's different.

 

That's the problem with real world mods. It's very hard to get right and what is "right" is entirely subjective.

 

Everyone has a subjective opinion about a real life subject, that is true. But that isn't the problem with real world mods.

 

It's a very tired meme on the community, treating people with disdain and dismissal for using modded content. It's just as valid a way to play the game or there wouldn't be an editor to mod to begin with.

[TeemuFoundation]

You realise CV is entirely fictional? The mod makers goal isn't to model the CV, it's to model real world or the time period as best as possible.

 

 

 

Everyone has a subjective opinion about a real life subject, that is true. But that isn't the problem with real world mods.

 

It's a very tired meme on the community, treating people with disdain and dismissal for using modded content. It's just as valid a way to play the game or there wouldn't be an editor to mod to begin with.

I wish I could pin this one message to the top of every TEW related board forever.

[franticloser]

You realise CV is entirely fictional? The mod makers goal isn't to model the CV, it's to model real world or the time period as best as possible.

 

 

 

Everyone has a subjective opinion about a real life subject, that is true. But that isn't the problem with real world mods.

 

It's a very tired meme on the community, treating people with disdain and dismissal for using modded content. It's just as valid a way to play the game or there wouldn't be an editor to mod to begin with.

 

 

I think what they mean by that, is that the CVerse model of stats is what people try and strive for. It is how the game is designed to run based on the wrestlers in it. So when you have 20 guys at say 90-100 pop then it throws off the balance. Yes modders should try and strive for the real world or time period, but also keep in mind the balance of the workers so as to still make it a challenge and not unbalance the mod.

[TeemuFoundation]

I think what they mean by that, is that the CVerse model of stats is what people try and strive for. It is how the game is designed to run based on the wrestlers in it. So when you have 20 guys at say 90-100 pop then it throws off the balance. Yes modders should try and strive for the real world or time period, but also keep in mind the balance of the workers so as to still make it a challenge and not unbalance the mod.

If a company in a specific time period had 20 guys with 90-100 pop, then that is what the mod should have. And needs to have. That's the point. What I think the issue is, and what I would hope that TEW one day days, is to better simulate all the reasons why it's not always possible or logical to push all of the obvious stars. What I mean is, we all can fantasy book and point out to stuff and say "Why didn't the WWF and WCW push this guy and that guy, and this guy?" because it's easy to be an armchair booker. Without realizing that sometimes there are multiple reasons as to why this guy who is an obvious mega star on paper just wasn't the guy to push. I'd like to see more dilemmas introduced. We have stuff like drug use and whatnot, but instead of arbitrary penalties on segment lengths and whatnot, I'd like to see the handling of your company's backstage made more difficult. And fans being more fickle and harder to please. Politics getting a bigger role. Lots of stuff you could do. Because, yeah, as you said, if you have a roster in TEW with 20 guys with 90+ pop in an entertainment company, it's pretty easy street for you. But then again, look at a company like WCW and the roster they had at their peak. And they still failed. And it's not like Bischoff was some big dummy, he wasn't. His hands just were way more tied than our hands are in TEW. There were a lot of factors involved.

[Blackman]

I think what they mean by that, is that the CVerse model of stats is what people try and strive for. It is how the game is designed to run based on the wrestlers in it. So when you have 20 guys at say 90-100 pop then it throws off the balance. Yes modders should try and strive for the real world or time period, but also keep in mind the balance of the workers so as to still make it a challenge and not unbalance the mod.

 

This is what you should pin to the modding board. It's a truth for every manager game. There's a certain balance in the default model that the game comes with, because that's the one that has been tested. It would baffle me if the testing team actually tested RW mods as that'd be laughable use of their time.

 

What RW mods sometimes fail to do is adjust their stats on that model. Especially pop seems sensitive. They're unfortunately quite doomed to provide some sense of inaccuracy and that's what's preventing my from ever playing one, no matter the effort of the modder. The C-verse is what it is. Can't really fault it unless there's severe inconsistencies with the lore and continuity from the previous editions.

 

In any event: the ratings probably make perfect sense for the settings in the database. As others pointed out: it's not an easy game to learn immediately (barring certain promotions). The first months (the ones we've played now) are also the hardest ones, especially if the mod is average. The gameworld has to sort itself out somewhat, which might result in weird ratings. Give it half a year and it should be fixed.

[Snakebite180]

Tell me what mod your using and what product you have selected for njpw and I’ll tell you what your doing wrong.

[Jaded]

Tell me what mod your using and what product you have selected for njpw and I’ll tell you what your doing wrong.

 

I think it’s fairly clear it’s running the shows in the US which is the major issue.

[Questlove]

This is what you should pin to the modding board. It's a truth for every manager game. There's a certain balance in the default model that the game comes with, because that's the one that has been tested. It would baffle me if the testing team actually tested RW mods as that'd be laughable use of their time.

 

This I find... insane? Of course the game is more balanced around the completely fictional data it comes with, because no matter how it comes out it can't be wrong. The CVerse is about as far away from real wrestling as you can possibly get and bringing real world data in line with it while retaining accuracy is practically impossible. Surely it would make more sense for the game to be built with the real world in mind rather than modders having to jump through hoops while playing 8D chess with the editor only to *still* have their mod not reflect reality because the fictional data has hamstrung the fundamentals of the game.

[franticloser]

If a company in a specific time period had 20 guys with 90-100 pop, then that is what the mod should have. And needs to have. That's the point. What I think the issue is, and what I would hope that TEW one day days, is to better simulate all the reasons why it's not always possible or logical to push all of the obvious stars. What I mean is, we all can fantasy book and point out to stuff and say "Why didn't the WWF and WCW push this guy and that guy, and this guy?" because it's easy to be an armchair booker. Without realizing that sometimes there are multiple reasons as to why this guy who is an obvious mega star on paper just wasn't the guy to push. I'd like to see more dilemmas introduced. We have stuff like drug use and whatnot, but instead of arbitrary penalties on segment lengths and whatnot, I'd like to see the handling of your company's backstage made more difficult. And fans being more fickle and harder to please. Politics getting a bigger role. Lots of stuff you could do. Because, yeah, as you said, if you have a roster in TEW with 20 guys with 90+ pop in an entertainment company, it's pretty easy street for you. But then again, look at a company like WCW and the roster they had at their peak. And they still failed. And it's not like Bischoff was some big dummy, he wasn't. His hands just were way more tied than our hands are in TEW. There were a lot of factors involved.

 

 

If we look at stats subjectively and compare them to what the handbook has listed. there has only ever been three maybe four guys who have hit 90 pop. Austin, Hogan, Rock, and maybe Andre. They transcended the business, Cena would be right below them and can be argued at a 90 but more likely in the mid 80s. Guys like Flair and Undertaker would be there as well maybe Lesnar even.

 

 

 

The roster that Bischoff had was Hogan at 90, then Savage, Sting, Goldberg, Flair, and Nash who where in their 80s. Then you had a few guys who would be in the low 80s like say Giant, Luger, DDP and the like. Below that where guys who where better in ring talents but had pop in the 60s and 70s. Booker T, Benoit, Eddie, Raven and the like.

 

 

 

Again you have to look at what the game was designed to run with, and truly be critical of who really is 90-100 and who would be 80s with high momentum, same with skills you can't have Rock and Austin at 100 and then put John Cena at the same, because (love or hate him) Cena is great on the mic but isn't Rock and Austin, you have to think about the skill balance and rate people based on that.

 

 

 

With all that said we all play different ways. So different mods work for different people. Some people want those high stats or think that is the right way to do it. Others prefer to have it balance and make it more of a challenge where everyone is rated in a way that comes of realistically without it being to hard or to easy. So we can agree to disagree as both of us are right, and wrong lol!

[TeemuFoundation]

If we look at stats subjectively and compare them to what the handbook has listed. there has only ever been three maybe four guys who have hit 90 pop. Austin, Hogan, Rock, and maybe Andre. They transcended the business, Cena would be right below them and can be argued at a 90 but more likely in the mid 80s. Guys like Flair and Undertaker would be there as well maybe Lesnar even.

 

 

 

The roster that Bischoff had was Hogan at 90, then Savage, Sting, Goldberg, Flair, and Nash who where in their 80s. Then you had a few guys who would be in the low 80s like say Giant, Luger, DDP and the like. Below that where guys who where better in ring talents but had pop in the 60s and 70s. Booker T, Benoit, Eddie, Raven and the like.

 

 

 

Again you have to look at what the game was designed to run with, and truly be critical of who really is 90-100 and who would be 80s with high momentum, same with skills you can't have Rock and Austin at 100 and then put John Cena at the same, because (love or hate him) Cena is great on the mic but isn't Rock and Austin, you have to think about the skill balance and rate people based on that.

 

 

 

With all that said we all play different ways. So different mods work for different people. Some people want those high stats or think that is the right way to do it. Others prefer to have it balance and make it more of a challenge where everyone is rated in a way that comes of realistically without it being to hard or to easy. So we can agree to disagree as both of us are right, and wrong lol!

I wasn't arguing a company in real life has had 20 guys with 90+ pop, it was just a hypothetical as a reply to the post I was quoting.

[franticloser]

This I find... insane? Of course the game is more balanced around the completely fictional data it comes with, because no matter how it comes out it can't be wrong. The CVerse is about as far away from real wrestling as you can possibly get and bringing real world data in line with it while retaining accuracy is practically impossible. Surely it would make more sense for the game to be built with the real world in mind rather than modders having to jump through hoops while playing 8D chess with the editor only to *still* have their mod not reflect reality because the fictional data has hamstrung the fundamentals of the game.

 

 

I think Derek B. used to have a thread where he broke down stats and a loose structure of where people should fall in based on their ability/popularity. I don't think you have to sacrifice and try and force yourself to fall in line with the Cverse, but trying to make sure things aren't either over or under inflated I feel should be something mods should strive for. But that is just me, and if the stats make sense in the mod itself then they work for that mod.

[franticloser]

I wasn't arguing a company in real life has had 20 guys with 90+ pop, it was just a hypothetical as a reply to the post I was quoting.

 

 

I wasn't saying you where, I was just breaking it down based on your hypothetical.

[Lucas]

I think what they mean by that, is that the CVerse model of stats is what people try and strive for. It is how the game is designed to run based on the wrestlers in it. So when you have 20 guys at say 90-100 pop then it throws off the balance. Yes modders should try and strive for the real world or time period, but also keep in mind the balance of the workers so as to still make it a challenge and not unbalance the mod.

 

It's not though because C-Verse itself has seen some drastic changes in the past to keep up with some of the issues raised with the game engine.

 

Ergo, C-Verse can't really be wrong in a sense, because it's not real.

 

And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but that doesn't mean C-Verse is reflective of real life at all, regardless of the similarities or 'based on' real people that they are sometimes.

[Lucas]

I think Derek B. used to have a thread where he broke down stats and a loose structure of where people should fall in based on their ability/popularity. I don't think you have to sacrifice and try and force yourself to fall in line with the Cverse, but trying to make sure things aren't either over or under inflated I feel should be something mods should strive for. But that is just me, and if the stats make sense in the mod itself then they work for that mod.

 

And very good it was too, even when some of his examples were based on real people, you might disagree with them sometimes.

 

Mods should reflect the mods imo, otherwise you may as well just play the CVerse

[FINisher]

RW mods are so subjective. Just a quick discussion on Discord we had a week ago proved it, we had wildly different Star Quality numbers for Jeff Hardy, Jericho etc.. That's also one of the reason why I never play RW - the mods very rarely project the stats that I think are the correct ones. Everyone has 10-20 points higher stats than they should, pretty much.

[TeemuFoundation]

RW mods are so subjective. Just a quick discussion on Discord we had a week ago proved it, we had wildly different Star Quality numbers for Jeff Hardy, Jericho etc.. That's also one of the reason why I never play RW - the mods very rarely project the stats that I think are the correct ones. Everyone has 10-20 points higher stats than they should, pretty much.

This is why I've always made my own.

By me, for me.

[Gockelinho]

Big problem is also when you use some of the lower members of Bullet Club or CHAOS for the six man with the big stars and the match goes 20 minutes + like you told me the game says they are overused? That's bs even people like Gedo and YOSHI-HASHI get in these main events in real life.

[creepshow]

I think the key to stuff like that is to be aware that there is a penalty in place but it isn't going to wreck your show, or even the match...just hurt it slightly

[DeathZone2]

The Japanese tour system as a whole is horribly implemented in TEW and is in no way realistic. It's nigh-impossible to simulate it correctly.

[Blackman]

This I find... insane?

 

You can find it however you want, but it's a fact. I've worked on databases for non-GDS sports management games. WMMA5 also falls under that category. This is how you do it. And if you don't, this is how you eventually end up doing it after failing.

 

However, TEW is not a sports management game and kind of its own category, so I think I understand what you're saying. There's "realism", whatever that term means in pro wrestling, and there's gameplay. If you want the best possible gameplay you should follow the guidelines from the default C-verse. Adam made the game, he's the only one who knows how stats exactly change over time. There's some experts here on the forum who've played so much that they can claim to have a good idea on how stat development goes, but it's never a complete knowledge, especially with this being a new game. If you want maximum "realism", you could stray from the path, but even than it will often result in unbalances. I don't have a feeling the wrestling world is "unbalanced" at the moment, so that can't be the intent of your db.

 

It you are going to clown around and make up your own stat matrices for your mod, then your mod isn't going to stand the test of time (so long games will be crap). Again: this is a stone cold fact, no matter what your opinion is on the matter. People that purposely strain from the default are those that make fantasy-db's or mods that aren't meant for long-term play.

[Questlove]

You can find it however you want, but it's a fact. I've worked on databases for non-GDS sports management games. WMMA5 also falls under that category. This is how you do it. And if you don't, this is how you eventually end up doing it after failing.

 

However, TEW is not a sports management game and kind of its own category, so I think I understand what you're saying. There's "realism", whatever that term means in pro wrestling, and there's gameplay. If you want the best possible gameplay you should follow the guidelines from the default C-verse. Adam made the game, he's the only one who knows how stats exactly change over time. There's some experts here on the forum who've played so much that they can claim to have a good idea on how stat development goes, but it's never a complete knowledge, especially with this being a new game. If you want maximum "realism", you could stray from the path, but even than it will often result in unbalances. I don't have a feeling the wrestling world is "unbalanced" at the moment, so that can't be the intent of your db.

 

It you are going to clown around and make up your own stat matrices for your mod, then your mod isn't going to stand the test of time (so long games will be crap). Again: this is a stone cold fact, no matter what your opinion is on the matter. People that purposely strain from the default are those that make fantasy-db's or mods that aren't meant for long-term play.

 

Bolded kinda made me laugh since the default is a fantasy DB

 

There's a lot more that goes into a mod than just the stats which isn't even what I'm referring to when I talk about realism. Pop gains are all over the place, broadcasting is all over the place, touring is all over the place, finances are all over the place, etc. All of this is like a line of dominoes falling, with each one taking the game further away from reality all because the game is designed around a fictional universe where nothing is incorrect.

 

Also, define stand the test of time? I don't know if the C-Verse is the best analogy for that considering a lot of people never even touch it after RW mods come out

 

We're getting way off topic anyway, this isn't supposed to be a thread about mod balance. Thanks for letting me know I'm just clowning around though

[TheJG]

When a large percentage, I'd assume even a majority percentage, play a game because of Real World mods, then Real World mods should be heavily considered when developing said game.